Balrog getting killed? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 12:54 PM

In the books, Gandalf fights the Balrog on Zirak-zigil ( i think that's how it's spelled!) and kills him. In TTT movie,Gandalf uses his sword to hold lightining and stabs the balrog, killing him. How can this kill a Balrog, and does it mention this in the book?

obloquy · 01-03-2003, 01:47 PM

What do you mean by 'how can this kill a Balrog'? Stabbing is a pretty effective way to kill almost anything.

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 01:55 PM

TRUE. but an immortal fire demon spirit of Morgoth would seem to take a bit more.

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 02:01 PM

it just seems like a sword wouldnt do much damage to it. the balrog really seems to be more spirit than flesh, so how can this hurt it?

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]

Afrodal Fenyar · 01-03-2003, 02:03 PM

Ask Peter Jackson. I don't think this belongs to "The Books"-section. The Movies actually have nothing to do with Tolkien, they are only based on his books. Sorry, but I think this is a stupid question.

(The only mention of Gandalf using his sword while battling the Balrog is that he used it to defend from the Balrog's sword)

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 02:13 PM

my inquiry sir, was based on the books. i asked if there was any mention of gandalf fightining the balrog on zirak-zigil and i was wandering if a sword could kill a spirit of fire as the balrog is described by tolkien,"of shadow and flame" and the valarukar as described in the Silmarillion.

Manwe Sulimo · 01-03-2003, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightening, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of flame. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.'

The lightening, at least, was accurate.

zacattack · 01-03-2003, 05:47 PM

Well PJ was wrong because in the books Gandalf said that the Balrog was killed by the fall.

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 05:51 PM

true. i wonder how little ol' gandalf threw a balrog off a mountain though.

01-03-2003, 06:02 PM

never though about how he could do it, although i assume that he is a lot tougher then he lets on. although if we are goning to wonder about such things, how come the fall off the mountin killed the balrog, when both he and Gandalf survied the fall from the bridge? the fall from the bridge to the bottem of the pit that was reputated to be a much longer fall then any that could happen from the top of a mountin. kind of stange if you ask me

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 06:06 PM

although, there was water at the bottom of the chasm, when the balrog was thrown off the mountain, there was only very sharp rocks.

obloquy · 01-03-2003, 06:11 PM

That Balrogs were ever killed at all indicates that they were incarnate, and thus susceptible to attacks with sharp things. For more on Balrog incarnation, see this thread.

Edit: Gandalf was not relatively 'little' (that is, relative to the Balrog's attributes), either in spiritual potency or in physical size.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 06:16 PM

since they were evil they couldnt be reincarnated as elves could.

burrahobbit · 01-03-2003, 06:21 PM

Or like Sauron, either. OH WAIT.

P.S. oloquy wasn't talking about reincarnation, just regular old incarnation.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 08:35 PM

oh. is there any evidence that servants of evil, morgoth, sauron, can be brought back as Gandalf was? Or do they just sit in the Halls of Mandos, or cast out with Morgoth?

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 08:57 PM

Weren't Balrogs originally some of the Mia? or were they different beings altogether?

Mandos · 01-03-2003, 09:20 PM

the balrogs are suppose to be intelligent since they were once these "good" beings. Could they speak though?

obloquy · 01-04-2003, 06:41 AM

Quote:

is there any evidence that servants of evil, morgoth, sauron, can be brought back as Gandalf was?

Depends on how 'incarnate' they were. Sauron's incarnation is complicated. The Ring was Sauron's 'anchor to life', so as long as it existed, he would exist. Tolkien tells us that Morgoth, even after having been executed as an Incarnate, could still conceivably regenerate to the point of reincarnating himself.

Quote:

Weren't Balrogs originally some of the Mia? or were they different beings altogether?

Yes, Balrogs were corrupted Maiar.

Quote:

the balrogs are suppose to be intelligent since they were once these "good" beings. Could they speak though?

Of course they could speak.

Legolas · 01-04-2003, 01:13 PM

Such a being was bound to its incarnation to an extent.

This is why Fingolfin could injure Morgoth, why Gil-galad and Elendil could kill Sauron, why Glorfindel and Ecthelion could kill their respective balrogs, why Saruman could die the way he did, etc.

Mandos · 01-04-2003, 06:27 PM

To an extent? To no extent at all. No evil person was ever incarnated, or was there an incident?

Manwe Sulimo · 01-04-2003, 07:08 PM

Unless I'm seriously missing something really big, weren't all evil people incarnated? Melkor had a body, Sauron had bodies, the Balrogs had bodies....

Unless you mean reincarnated. Sauron was on no less then two occasions.

burrahobbit · 01-04-2003, 07:22 PM

Yeah, Manwe. Pretty much.

Mandos · 01-04-2003, 07:32 PM

sorry i erred. i did indeed mean reincarnated. i didnt think about sauron. after the destruction of Numenor i suppose he was reincarnated since he definately had a physical form to fight Gil-galad and Elendil. i wonder if gothmog or any of the valarukar were reincarnated though. Sauron was strong in power and enchantments. I do suppose that the balrogs were enchanted since they were Miar. I wonder why they didnt speak though?

Manwe Sulimo · 01-04-2003, 08:03 PM

They did speak. And they were probably just as powerful as Sauron, because they were all Maiar. Sauron just chose to be more independent, or Melkor liked him better.

Mandos · 01-04-2003, 11:17 PM

Why did Sauron not look like the Blarogs then? im not arguing, but am genuinely curious, where does it mention a blarog speaking?

burrahobbit · 01-04-2003, 11:35 PM

Because he didn't want to. The Balrog does spells, spells require talking.

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 12:51 PM

r u referring to the incident with something and gandalf having a battle over the door in moria?

Manwe Sulimo · 01-05-2003, 02:00 PM

I'll answer a question with a question:
When was it mentioned that Maiar couldn't talk?

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 02:07 PM

What of evil suverted transformed Miaa?

Manwe Sulimo · 01-05-2003, 02:12 PM

Sauron talked as a wolf [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 02:15 PM

true.........but wasnt he more powerful than the valarukar? He was favored of Morgoth.

Yavanna Kementari · 01-05-2003, 02:58 PM

The Valaraukar were Maiar. Greater than these Evil spirits was Sauron. But these spirits can take on a form of their liking. Gandalf is a Maia, he has taken the form of a man. But once He was killed he could not take on the same form as Gandalf the Grey, He became Gandalf the White. Sauron was struck down and when came back he took the form of a Great Eye. There was a Balrog killed in one of the History books of middle earth. And if you pay attention to the movie, I believe they show The Balrog falling off the side of mountain and dying. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think I have to see it again--Yavanna

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 03:03 PM

I never said that Balrogs couldnt die, i asked where does it give and intstance of one speaking. also, if you read the Silmarillion you will see that many other balrogs have been killed. Including the king of the balrogs who was killed by ecthalion of the fountain in the city of Gondolin.

Yavanna Kementari · 01-05-2003, 03:38 PM

I have read the Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings(both,repeatedly),The Unfinished Tales, and The Books of lost Tales, I don't recall A Balrog speaking but I am sure they can because they are Maiar and thats..
Ecthelion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Sorry to bother you

Manwe Sulimo · 01-05-2003, 09:01 PM

How about this...Balrogs were Maiar spirits of fire. Arien (sp?) was also a Maia spirit of fire....and I'm pretty sure she could talk. As could any Maia in any form, I'm sure.

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 09:48 PM

That's an interesting point, this makes one wonder if Arien could be considered a "good balrog" sice both were demons of fire. Arien was the one who carried the vessel that is the sun. Who was the one that carried the moon?

burrahobbit · 01-05-2003, 11:06 PM

Arien isn't a demon.

[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Mandos · 01-05-2003, 11:09 PM

Sorry, i meant Spirits of Fire.

Yavanna Kementari · 01-06-2003, 12:48 PM

Tilion was the Maia that guided the Isil or the moon that containd the last silver flower of Telperion.
I don't think Arien was a demon just a spirit of fire. But I'm sure she was beautiful not ugly like the Valaraukar. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Yavanna

Gandalf_theGrey · 01-06-2003, 01:08 PM

Yavanna Kementari:

Hail friend. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] * bows *

Your words remind me of a poem I once heard recited by a Hobbit on one of my trips through the Shire:

Yet even Arien rides alone,
Anar’s course steadily keeping,
gazing on a frozen pond
to thaw and heal the weeping.

Each fiery tear she gently takes
as dew gathered into a vial.
The heat she smoothes with caring song
into a soft gold smile.

The wind can frighten with its change.
The sun above endures.
Draw strength now from the dawn’s new light
As it comes to reassure.

01-03-2003, 12:54 PM	#1
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	Balrog getting killed? In the books, Gandalf fights the Balrog on Zirak-zigil ( i think that's how it's spelled!) and kills him. In TTT movie,Gandalf uses his sword to hold lightining and stabs the balrog, killing him. How can this kill a Balrog, and does it mention this in the book? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 01:55 PM	#3
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	TRUE. but an immortal fire demon spirit of Morgoth would seem to take a bit more. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 02:01 PM	#4
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	it just seems like a sword wouldnt do much damage to it. the balrog really seems to be more spirit than flesh, so how can this hurt it? [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ] __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 02:03 PM	#5
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Ask Peter Jackson. I don't think this belongs to "The Books"-section. The Movies actually have nothing to do with Tolkien, they are only based on his books. Sorry, but I think this is a stupid question. (The only mention of Gandalf using his sword while battling the Balrog is that he used it to defend from the Balrog's sword) __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

01-03-2003, 02:13 PM	#6
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	my inquiry sir, was based on the books. i asked if there was any mention of gandalf fightining the balrog on zirak-zigil and i was wandering if a sword could kill a spirit of fire as the balrog is described by tolkien,"of shadow and flame" and the valarukar as described in the Silmarillion. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 01:47 PM	#2
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	What do you mean by 'how can this kill a Balrog'? Stabbing is a pretty effective way to kill almost anything.

01-03-2003, 05:47 PM	#8
zacattack Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Angband Posts: 70	Well PJ was wrong because in the books Gandalf said that the Balrog was killed by the fall. __________________ "The dwarf breathes so loud we could have shot him in the dark "What an excellent spot I choose"-Gimli "Would you like me to describe it to you or just fetch for a box"-Legolas

01-03-2003, 05:51 PM	#9
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	true. i wonder how little ol' gandalf threw a balrog off a mountain though. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 06:02 PM	#10
Olorins_dumber_brother Guest Posts: n/a	never though about how he could do it, although i assume that he is a lot tougher then he lets on. although if we are goning to wonder about such things, how come the fall off the mountin killed the balrog, when both he and Gandalf survied the fall from the bridge? the fall from the bridge to the bottem of the pit that was reputated to be a much longer fall then any that could happen from the top of a mountin. kind of stange if you ask me

01-03-2003, 06:06 PM	#11
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	although, there was water at the bottom of the chasm, when the balrog was thrown off the mountain, there was only very sharp rocks. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 06:11 PM	#12
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	That Balrogs were ever killed at all indicates that they were incarnate, and thus susceptible to attacks with sharp things. For more on Balrog incarnation, see this thread. Edit: Gandalf was not relatively 'little' (that is, relative to the Balrog's attributes), either in spiritual potency or in physical size. [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

01-03-2003, 06:16 PM	#13
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	since they were evil they couldnt be reincarnated as elves could. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 06:21 PM	#14
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	Or like Sauron, either. OH WAIT. P.S. oloquy wasn't talking about reincarnation, just regular old incarnation. [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-03-2003, 08:35 PM	#15
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	oh. is there any evidence that servants of evil, morgoth, sauron, can be brought back as Gandalf was? Or do they just sit in the Halls of Mandos, or cast out with Morgoth? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 08:57 PM	#16
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	Weren't Balrogs originally some of the Mia? or were they different beings altogether? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-03-2003, 09:20 PM	#17
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	the balrogs are suppose to be intelligent since they were once these "good" beings. Could they speak though? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-04-2003, 01:13 PM	#19
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Such a being was bound to its incarnation to an extent. This is why Fingolfin could injure Morgoth, why Gil-galad and Elendil could kill Sauron, why Glorfindel and Ecthelion could kill their respective balrogs, why Saruman could die the way he did, etc. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-04-2003, 06:27 PM	#20
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	To an extent? To no extent at all. No evil person was ever incarnated, or was there an incident? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-04-2003, 07:08 PM	#21
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Unless I'm seriously missing something really big, weren't all evil people incarnated? Melkor had a body, Sauron had bodies, the Balrogs had bodies.... Unless you mean reincarnated. Sauron was on no less then two occasions. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-04-2003, 07:22 PM	#22
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	Yeah, Manwe. Pretty much. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-04-2003, 07:32 PM	#23
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	sorry i erred. i did indeed mean reincarnated. i didnt think about sauron. after the destruction of Numenor i suppose he was reincarnated since he definately had a physical form to fight Gil-galad and Elendil. i wonder if gothmog or any of the valarukar were reincarnated though. Sauron was strong in power and enchantments. I do suppose that the balrogs were enchanted since they were Miar. I wonder why they didnt speak though? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-04-2003, 08:03 PM	#24
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	They did speak. And they were probably just as powerful as Sauron, because they were all Maiar. Sauron just chose to be more independent, or Melkor liked him better. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-04-2003, 11:17 PM	#25
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	Why did Sauron not look like the Blarogs then? im not arguing, but am genuinely curious, where does it mention a blarog speaking? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-04-2003, 11:35 PM	#26
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	Because he didn't want to. The Balrog does spells, spells require talking. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

01-05-2003, 12:51 PM	#27
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	r u referring to the incident with something and gandalf having a battle over the door in moria? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-05-2003, 02:00 PM	#28
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	I'll answer a question with a question: When was it mentioned that Maiar couldn't talk? __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-05-2003, 02:07 PM	#29
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	What of evil suverted transformed Miaa? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-05-2003, 02:12 PM	#30
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Sauron talked as a wolf [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-05-2003, 02:15 PM	#31
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	true.........but wasnt he more powerful than the valarukar? He was favored of Morgoth. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-05-2003, 02:58 PM	#32
Yavanna Kementari Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 97	The Valaraukar were Maiar. Greater than these Evil spirits was Sauron. But these spirits can take on a form of their liking. Gandalf is a Maia, he has taken the form of a man. But once He was killed he could not take on the same form as Gandalf the Grey, He became Gandalf the White. Sauron was struck down and when came back he took the form of a Great Eye. There was a Balrog killed in one of the History books of middle earth. And if you pay attention to the movie, I believe they show The Balrog falling off the side of mountain and dying. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think I have to see it again--Yavanna __________________ "Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë

01-05-2003, 03:03 PM	#33
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	I never said that Balrogs couldnt die, i asked where does it give and intstance of one speaking. also, if you read the Silmarillion you will see that many other balrogs have been killed. Including the king of the balrogs who was killed by ecthalion of the fountain in the city of Gondolin. __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-05-2003, 03:38 PM	#34
Yavanna Kementari Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 97	I have read the Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings(both,repeatedly),The Unfinished Tales, and The Books of lost Tales, I don't recall A Balrog speaking but I am sure they can because they are Maiar and thats.. Ecthelion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Sorry to bother you __________________ "Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë

01-05-2003, 09:01 PM	#35
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	How about this...Balrogs were Maiar spirits of fire. Arien (sp?) was also a Maia spirit of fire....and I'm pretty sure she could talk. As could any Maia in any form, I'm sure. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

01-05-2003, 09:48 PM	#36
Mandos Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Panama City, Florida Posts: 131	That's an interesting point, this makes one wonder if Arien could be considered a "good balrog" sice both were demons of fire. Arien was the one who carried the vessel that is the sun. Who was the one that carried the moon? __________________ He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer

01-05-2003, 11:06 PM	#37
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	Arien isn't a demon. [ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?