Why did the Elves have to leave? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Laialthriel · 12-10-2002, 01:34 PM

I haven't done much research on the subject yet, but can anyone give me any answers as to why the Elves had to leave ME? Or where I could find information on this? This is mentioned a lot in the LotR book(s) and the movie

"My people are leaving these shores." -- Lord Elrond

and I have always been wondering why? And what and where are the Gray Havens?

King Turgon · 12-10-2002, 01:57 PM

Oringinally the Eleves were all on Valinor (I Think).
But the main reason is decay. The Elves did not like the changes in Middle Earth. That is why the Three Rings were made. To prevent the decay and to preserve Middle Earth. Since they lost power, they left.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 12-10-2002, 02:10 PM

The time of the Elves has ended and they are leaving Middle Earth, and it's keeping, to the race of Men. They go back to Valinor... many of them came from there to begin with, but there are also Elves who have never seen the light of Valinor. Many Elves were exiled and are pardoned to re-enter. If you want to learn more on this matter read The Silmarillion.

Legolas · 12-10-2002, 06:07 PM

Actually...

The elves awoke in the far east of Middle-earth, of which we know very little about. The place they awoke is known as Cuiviénen, the shores surrounding the sea of Helcar.

Morgoth found them, and the Valar summoned the elves to come west, across Middle-earth and the ocean to Valinor in order to avoid contact with and corruption by the evil ways of Morgoth. Along the way, different elven kindreds formed...the Vanyar (went straight to Valinor), the Noldor (went, but some came back to Middle-earth and were forbidden to return), and the Telerin (some had gone at the time of LOTR, but many hadn't).

Tolkien says Humans were supposed to take the place of the Elves...it was their destiny. This was becoming final at the end of the Third Age (when Lord of the Rings takes place).

You must also understand - Valinor is a way better place to be. Mortals were not allowed, however, except by special permission (Sam, Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli).

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Túroch · 12-11-2002, 01:51 AM

Besides the fact that men's destiny was to take their place many Elves wanted to leave Middle Earth. Much of what they loved in Middle Earth was dying or passing away. The three rings were an effort to preserve some of what the elves cherished. When the one ring was found again it just made the trip to the west even more appealing. For when the ring was found whatever happened the elvish parts of middle earth would fad away or be corrupted. If you want more info on why their leaving check out my post in this thread here:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=2&t=001762

Pallando B.C · 12-11-2002, 05:37 AM

The power of The Three Rings is also a factor. When thr Ruling Ring was destroyed, the Three Rings lost their power. Also ( somehow) that effected the power of the elves on Middle Earth.

It's also Tolkien's method of writing to do something like that!

Konarmi · 12-11-2002, 08:30 AM

Quote:

When thr Ruling Ring was destroyed, the Three Rings lost their power. Also ( somehow) that effected the power of the elves on Middle Earth

Okay, so what happened to the rings that the humans received?

Frodo Baggins · 12-11-2002, 09:39 AM

The nine rings of the humans belonged to the Ringwraiths and when the One was destroyed and Sauron was defeated, the wraiths all died as well.

Luinsewiel · 12-11-2002, 02:43 PM

All of this brings a question to mind. Once the Elves had gone over the sea could they ever return to Middle-Earth or was the straight road one way?

willkill4food · 12-11-2002, 06:20 PM

I compare valinor for the elves of middle-earth to heaven for men. Since elves cannot die, and have to stay in middle-earth until they are allowed to cross, it is sort of a hidden and mysterious place, and I always thought that since elves do not go to heaven, this is the only way for them to leave middle-earth...but since I am not that knowedgeable about this stuff, i am probably wro, but this is what it means to be

-willkill

Westerly Wizard · 12-11-2002, 06:58 PM

For one thing, the elves did not actually have to leave Middle-earth. However, if they didn't, they would eventually fade; thus, most elves travelled West.

The only elf I can think of who left Aman after the First Age is the mysterious Glorfindel. Tolkien wrote two essays on him near the end of his life, one which placed his return to Middle-earth in the Thrid Age, coming with Gandalf, and the other more strongly put Glorfindel's return in the Second Age. Had Glorfindel come to Middle-earth in the Third Age for certain, than it would show that the Straight Road was not just a one-way thing. However it seems more likely (to me, based on the strength with which Tolkien asserts it) that Glorfindel returned in the Second Age; one of Tolkien's reasons being that such travel back to Middle-earth might not have been allowed after Numenor's downfall, which would mean that the straight road (existing after Numenor's fall) is actually one way.

The Shadow In The East · 12-11-2002, 08:19 PM

is Valinor on any maps of middle earth?

The Shadow In The East · 12-11-2002, 08:20 PM

"they would eventually fade; thus, most elves travelled West." what is fading?

The Shadow In The East · 12-11-2002, 08:20 PM

okay 1 more question what is Valinor!?!

Túroch · 12-11-2002, 09:23 PM

Okay Shadow in the east, methinks you should go ask some questions in the Newcommers forum, but i'll go ahead and answer ya. Valinor is the land of the Valar, demigods/angels who originally made middle earth. If you want to know the whole story read the Silmarillion. It's a little slow at the start but it picks up. If you want a good sorce of Tolkien maps look up The Atlas Of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad at your local book store.

Now as to the Elves passage to the west being a one way trip, I tend to believe that there is nothing holding them from coming back. However, they have no real reason to leave, they left Aman once and look what happened, why should they try it again?

12-10-2002, 01:34 PM	#1
Laialthriel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wherever my mind has currently taken me Posts: 48	Why did the Elves have to leave? I haven't done much research on the subject yet, but can anyone give me any answers as to why the Elves had to leave ME? Or where I could find information on this? This is mentioned a lot in the LotR book(s) and the movie "My people are leaving these shores." -- Lord Elrond and I have always been wondering why? And what and where are the Gray Havens? __________________ "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." --Phil 3:14 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~* "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." --Gandalf the Gray

12-10-2002, 02:10 PM	#3
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	The time of the Elves has ended and they are leaving Middle Earth, and it's keeping, to the race of Men. They go back to Valinor... many of them came from there to begin with, but there are also Elves who have never seen the light of Valinor. Many Elves were exiled and are pardoned to re-enter. If you want to learn more on this matter read The Silmarillion. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

12-10-2002, 06:07 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Actually... The elves awoke in the far east of Middle-earth, of which we know very little about. The place they awoke is known as Cuiviénen, the shores surrounding the sea of Helcar. Morgoth found them, and the Valar summoned the elves to come west, across Middle-earth and the ocean to Valinor in order to avoid contact with and corruption by the evil ways of Morgoth. Along the way, different elven kindreds formed...the Vanyar (went straight to Valinor), the Noldor (went, but some came back to Middle-earth and were forbidden to return), and the Telerin (some had gone at the time of LOTR, but many hadn't). Tolkien says Humans were supposed to take the place of the Elves...it was their destiny. This was becoming final at the end of the Third Age (when Lord of the Rings takes place). You must also understand - Valinor is a way better place to be. Mortals were not allowed, however, except by special permission (Sam, Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli). [ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-11-2002, 01:51 AM	#5
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Besides the fact that men's destiny was to take their place many Elves wanted to leave Middle Earth. Much of what they loved in Middle Earth was dying or passing away. The three rings were an effort to preserve some of what the elves cherished. When the one ring was found again it just made the trip to the west even more appealing. For when the ring was found whatever happened the elvish parts of middle earth would fad away or be corrupted. If you want more info on why their leaving check out my post in this thread here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=2&t=001762 __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

12-11-2002, 05:37 AM	#6
Pallando B.C Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 521	The power of The Three Rings is also a factor. When thr Ruling Ring was destroyed, the Three Rings lost their power. Also ( somehow) that effected the power of the elves on Middle Earth. It's also Tolkien's method of writing to do something like that! __________________ {JHart} Support The Aussies!

12-10-2002, 01:57 PM	#2
King Turgon Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gondolin Posts: 11	Oringinally the Eleves were all on Valinor (I Think). But the main reason is decay. The Elves did not like the changes in Middle Earth. That is why the Three Rings were made. To prevent the decay and to preserve Middle Earth. Since they lost power, they left.

12-11-2002, 09:39 AM	#8
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	The nine rings of the humans belonged to the Ringwraiths and when the One was destroyed and Sauron was defeated, the wraiths all died as well. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

12-11-2002, 02:43 PM	#9
Luinsewiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Great Grey-Green Greasy Limpopo River, All Set About With Fever Trees Posts: 57	All of this brings a question to mind. Once the Elves had gone over the sea could they ever return to Middle-Earth or was the straight road one way? __________________ Take David Suzuki's nature challenge today ---> www.davidsuzuki.org

12-11-2002, 06:20 PM	#10
willkill4food Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 44	I compare valinor for the elves of middle-earth to heaven for men. Since elves cannot die, and have to stay in middle-earth until they are allowed to cross, it is sort of a hidden and mysterious place, and I always thought that since elves do not go to heaven, this is the only way for them to leave middle-earth...but since I am not that knowedgeable about this stuff, i am probably wro, but this is what it means to be -willkill __________________ Gil-galad was an Elven-king. Of him the harpers sadly sing...

12-11-2002, 06:58 PM	#11
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	For one thing, the elves did not actually have to leave Middle-earth. However, if they didn't, they would eventually fade; thus, most elves travelled West. The only elf I can think of who left Aman after the First Age is the mysterious Glorfindel. Tolkien wrote two essays on him near the end of his life, one which placed his return to Middle-earth in the Thrid Age, coming with Gandalf, and the other more strongly put Glorfindel's return in the Second Age. Had Glorfindel come to Middle-earth in the Third Age for certain, than it would show that the Straight Road was not just a one-way thing. However it seems more likely (to me, based on the strength with which Tolkien asserts it) that Glorfindel returned in the Second Age; one of Tolkien's reasons being that such travel back to Middle-earth might not have been allowed after Numenor's downfall, which would mean that the straight road (existing after Numenor's fall) is actually one way. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

12-11-2002, 08:19 PM	#12
The Shadow In The East Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 13	is Valinor on any maps of middle earth?

12-11-2002, 08:20 PM	#13
The Shadow In The East Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 13	"they would eventually fade; thus, most elves travelled West." what is fading?

12-11-2002, 09:23 PM	#15
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Okay Shadow in the east, methinks you should go ask some questions in the Newcommers forum, but i'll go ahead and answer ya. Valinor is the land of the Valar, demigods/angels who originally made middle earth. If you want to know the whole story read the Silmarillion. It's a little slow at the start but it picks up. If you want a good sorce of Tolkien maps look up The Atlas Of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad at your local book store. Now as to the Elves passage to the west being a one way trip, I tend to believe that there is nothing holding them from coming back. However, they have no real reason to leave, they left Aman once and look what happened, why should they try it again? __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters