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Old 03-17-2006, 01:53 AM   #41
Formendacil
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You know, LMP, one could almost categorize you as Catholic, with your desire to rank things by power in a hierarchy.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fun idea and certainly generates a lot of fun debate. I just wonder if you're not coming across as too serious about it! After all, Middle-Earth isn't Dungeons & Dragons!
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:28 AM   #42
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Elempí, I wouldn't put Elrond and Galadriel over Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was after all the one who dared to go to Dol Guldur and came back alive. Also he started the Erebor quest and the Ring quest. He defeated a balrog. I think Galadriel thought of him as more powerful than herself (or wiser, at least) and a proud noldo wouldn't do that without a reason. On what basis do you put Elrond and Galadriel over him?

Also, you're being contradictionary:
Quote:
The Witch King's power comes from the ring he wears, the power of which is derived from the One Ring. Otherwise, he is a Black Numenorean Man; as such, he is less than many Elves. But the 'otherwise' is not the case we are dealing with. The nub of the issue is that Gandalf the White and the Witch King seem to be more or less evenly matched (Jackson was stupid for having WK break Gandalf's staff), but the WK the more dire of the two. If so, then the WK is greater than Balrogs. Which I find troublesome, because I'm not sure he is. So let's say that the Witch King actually is lesser than Gandalf the White. I think it's still safe to say that WK is greater than Saruman.
and
Quote:
But Gollum is wearing the Ring when he kills these orcs (or Goblins, I like to differentiate between the two); he could never have done so without the Ring.
. So the Ring affects Witch King's position on the list, but not Gollum's? Care to explain yourself?
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Old 03-17-2006, 07:50 AM   #43
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Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out. I recently have played Risk ME edition, which I def recommend
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:07 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drigel
Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out. I recently have played Risk ME edition, which I def recommend
Perhaps lmp is a Middle-earth man of mystery, going back in time to find M-e's "mojo." Maybe he should have named this thread "Awsome Powers."
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Old 03-17-2006, 08:28 AM   #45
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Ilike the word like

To Littlemanpoet, you know the old chesnut about the Balrogs wings ie LIKE two vast wings, well in the chapter The Battle of The Pelennor Fields Tolkien says: and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls. Is Tolkien saying half-trolls exist or is he likening them to an idea of what a half-troll would look like, either way the creature would be formidable. The problem of the list, is that when listing Men or Elves, there are sub-catergories, not all men are equal.
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Old 03-17-2006, 12:17 PM   #46
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you forgot Nazgul

Actually i like the list but yes i agree sub categories should be in there


and unless its in the tales of tom bombadil(that song or whatnot) i think goldberry should be a little lower

and maybe hobbits above spiders(but thats almost too close to say)
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Old 03-17-2006, 12:46 PM   #47
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Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all. This would then place Tom above Gandalf and Galadriel, and I don't know if everyone would be OK with that, but I think he would be appropriately placed above them. Gandalf and Galadriel were deeply affected by the Ring, and had to struggle to resist it, but to Tom it was just a trinket.
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Old 03-18-2006, 09:34 AM   #48
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The Half-orcs

Just to try and clear up a small point made by Littlemanpoet, that the half-orcs were Uruk-hai. In Robert Fosters Complete Guide to Middle-Earth he writes thus:

Half-orcs Servents of Saruman, used by him as spies and soldiers. They were seemingly the product of a cross between Men and Orcs. Although tall as Men, they were sallow-faced and squint-eyed. The Chief's Men were half-orcs.
The half-orcs (the term is not used in The Lord of the Rings) were definitely not Uruk-hai.

Fosters guide is considered one of the better ones, even by Christopher Tolkien.

In Tylers The Tolkien Companion under the Uruk-hai section he states thus: Saruman himself attempted further genetic experiments with the race of 'Great Orcs'- with singularly unhappy results: creatures known as 'Half-orcs' which were said (by Sarumans enemies) to be the result of cross-breeding between Uruk-hai and certain degenerate Men in his service.

It may well be that The Uruks were a cross between Men and Orcs, but they were created by Sauron, not Saruman as it appears in the films. The Uruks first appeared about TA 2475.
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Old 03-18-2006, 11:20 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all. This would then place Tom above Gandalf and Galadriel, and I don't know if everyone would be OK with that, but I think he would be appropriately placed above them. Gandalf and Galadriel were deeply affected by the Ring, and had to struggle to resist it, but to Tom it was just a trinket.
Well, Tom is unaffected by the Ring, but I'm nit sure this is the same thing as being more powerful than it. Quite simply, the ring has nothing to take hold of Tom by - he has no desire to be anything other than he is, or possess anything he doesn't already have ('He is' as Goldberry says of him). Certainly the Ring can do things Tom cannot. And Gandalf states at the Council that Tom could not stand against Sauron himself.

What we're dealing with is the question of the precise power of the Ring & how it works. It plays on the individual's desires, so a being without desire would be impervious to its allure. This also means that Tom could never use the Ring (Galadriel tells Frodo that he could only use the Ring if he trained his will to the domination of others. Tom has no desire to do that (from what we know of him)). Certainly he is not powerful enough to destroy it, & this being the case can we really say he is more powerful than it? It could not dominate him, he could not destroy it.

Actually, he could well be less powerful than it in a real sense. After all, we seem to be judging a person's/thing's 'power' by its effect on the world/other people.
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Old 03-18-2006, 08:30 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
You know, LMP, one could almost categorize you as Catholic, with your desire to rank things by power in a hierarchy.
I have a great respect for the entire Church, into the current century; that includes the Catholic, of course. The nature of spiritual reality is hierarchy. That's one of my primary reasons for starting this thread. And I don't mind having a little fun with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien
Elempí, I wouldn't put Elrond and Galadriel over Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was after all the one who dared to go to Dol Guldur and came back alive. Also he started the Erebor quest and the Ring quest. He defeated a balrog. I think Galadriel thought of him as more powerful than herself (or wiser, at least) and a proud noldo wouldn't do that without a reason. On what basis do you put Elrond and Galadriel over him?
Mostly to distinguish between him as Grey and White. But your points are well taken. I'll place him above his two fellow Elven Ring-bearers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drigel
Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out.
The Yule Log, in the Rohan forum, set in the beginning of the Third Age; I have posited an evil Maia (one of Melkor's original followers) who was Morgoth's "cook"; that is, chief torturer of fëar. This Maia was trapped for the entirety of the Second Age in the deeps of Thangorodrim, but the cataclysm that sank Numenor at the end of the Second Age, caused this Maia's release. Just my little bit of story making, no canonicity to it at all; but I'm trying to be faithful to Tolkien all the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
... in the chapter The Battle of The Pelennor Fields Tolkien says: and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls. Is Tolkien saying half-trolls exist or is he likening them to an idea of what a half-troll would look like, either way the creature would be formidable. The problem of the list, is that when listing Men or Elves, there are sub-catergories, not all men are equal.
I shall add half-trolls, but in italics. Now I just need to figure out an appropriate place for them... I agree with sub-categories. Care to suggest placements?

And thanks for the solid research on Uruk-hai versus half-orcs. I just learned something new about LotR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morsul
you forgot Nazgul.
Oops!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morsul
...i think goldberry should be a little lower
How low?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all.
Well, that's a very interesting point, which I wrestled with when I first included him in my list. My rationale for his placement below Radagast was that he is no Maiar, but a nature spirit (which may be another kind of incarnated Maiar); and that he is not superior to the Ring but not at all in the same context. This is because the Ring is all about power and the acquisition of more while Tom Bombadil is, by nature, about remaining precisely within his limited sphere of power and authority. I'm not sure my rationale is sound, but I'd like to see it exploded before I change his placement, if you please. Ah, I see that davem has answered you with pretty much the same reasoning I've tried to use.

I'm moving Hobbits above Spiders. Think of the incident in the Hobbit. How many Spiders were there? What if there were as many Hobbits as Spiders ... on neutral ground? That's the trouble though: the Spiders would probably win in Mirkwood, and the Hobbits would win in the Shire. However, that's only in battle. The Hobbit culture is definitely superior to that of Spiders. Hobbits up. But then why not above Goblins? Because Goblins are more ruthless, though probably more cowardly. Well. Cowardliness is a worse disease than ruthlessness overcomes, so I think I'll put Hobbits above Goblins too.

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Gandalf the Grey
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Nazgúl
Arwen Undómiel
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Frodo Baggins
Eldar: Vanyar
Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri
Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir
Humans: line of Elros
Gimli the Dwarf
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi
Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Wargs
Dwarves
Goldberry
Denethor
Boromir
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians
Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)
Half-orcs
Uruk hai
Orcs
Meriadoc Brandybuck
Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Hobbits
Goblins
Spiders
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Old 03-18-2006, 09:01 PM   #51
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Let me know if this makes sense: Can we really count Tom Bombadill if we dont know who/what he is? Obviously, sine the whole [ring cant control him, but he cant control ring] thing adds some debate, and for all we know, (this is a reference to Battle for Middle-Earth 2) he could have a "Sonic Singing" power that would blow a humanoid Sauron away. Like RL, you cant really define a power of something unless you know enough about what it has done, and what it pre-hinted.


Also, about spiders-hobbits:Bilbo was as we know an excdptional hobbit. Think of what might have happened if you gave the Ring and Sting (dont forget an empty stomach!) to each hobbit and give them a spider of Mirkwood, a la gladiator style. Tooks might be able to beat some, but not all.
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Old 03-18-2006, 09:43 PM   #52
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I guess my answer, Elu, is that all we can go on is what is provided. We don't know all about all kinds of characters. Maybe Arwen inherited a gene from Melian (through Luthien) that gives her the ability to put a girdle of protection around the entirety of Gondor! But we only know what the books tell us, and that will have to suffice.
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Old 03-19-2006, 12:13 AM   #53
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The Valaquenta lists the Valar in "due order" which I interpret as 'order of power.' The list splits males and females, so we are left to look elsewhere to decide how the lists look when merged.

Quote:
The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.
In your most recent list, this would place Oromë in front of Mandos, and the missing females (Nienna, Estë, Vairë) inbetween Yavanna and Vána.

Lórien would need to be moved up, between Mandos and Tulkas. (He is currently below Tulkas in your list.)

I would also support Ulmo moving above Yavanna and Varda. Ulmo, the third Valar described, is given two full paragraphs in the Valaquenta, immediately following Manwe (undoubtedly the most powerful of the 14) and Varda - no one else is given that much attention.

I do not think Varda is necessarily greater in power than Ulmo. She is mentioned before Ulmo with Manwe, but I think this would be the case anyway, as to include her in Manwe's description since they are together. She is certainly powerful since Melkor "feared her more than all others whom Eru made," but I think this is because of her predisposition against him:
Quote:
Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her,
Anyway, Ulmo's Valaquenta description and every appearance he makes afterwards wreak of power; they are very detailed and the Valaquenta notes that "He is next in might to Manwë." I interpret this to be 'second in power' - the might of the Valar is not physical strength.

Quote:
Ulmo is the Lord of Waters. He is alone. He dwells nowhere long, but moves as he will in all the deep waters about the Earth or under the Earth. He is next in might to Manwë, and before Valinor was made he was closest to him in friendship; but thereafter he went seldom to the councils of the Valar, unless great matters were in debate. For he kept all Arda in thought, and he has no need of any resting-place. Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green. The trumpets of Manwë are loud, but Ulmo's voice is deep as the deeps of the ocean which he only has seen.

Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar. At times he win come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri, that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again. But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwë.
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Old 03-19-2006, 04:37 AM   #54
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I am really enjoying this post, what a minefield, thanks Littlemanpoet. Here are a few things to think about.


The Druedain
Luthien (who defeated Sauron in a battle of power, and had power over Morgoth)
The Mearas (Shadowfax, Nahar)


The point on Half-orcs, I would put them in this order

The Uruk-hai (Great Orcs)
The Orcs (Goblins)
The Half-orcs (ie:The squint-eyed southener in Bree and The Chiefs Men).
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Old 03-19-2006, 07:45 AM   #55
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Thanks for an excellent contribution, Legolas. I've placed the Vala based on your suggestions, but on some you made no suggestions. Those Vala are placed more or less without objective reasoning to back them up, so please offer suggestions anyone.

narfforc, thanks for the thoughts. I just cannot bring myself to put half-breeds with humans above "pure-bred" orcs because orcs are inferior to humans. Therefore, the half-breed must come between. I'm thinking about dispensing with my distinction between Orc and Goblin, as they seem to be the same thing. However, it seems to me that there are mountain orcs that are of the smallest and most cowardly variety, as compared to Mordor orcs, such as Grishnakh, who is not cowardly and really quite dangerous. Granted, Grishnakh seems to be an unusually canny orc, so he deserves inclusion. Still, I think Mordor orcs are a bit above mountain orcs. So I guess I'll stick with my distinction. Or are Mordor orcs always Uruk-hai? I'm thinking not... any help?

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Ulmo
Varda
Yavanna
Aulë
Oromë
Mandos
Lorien
Nienna
Tulkas
Estë
Vairë
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman the White
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Gandalf the Grey
Lúthien
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Nazgúl
Arwen Undómiel
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Mearas
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Frodo Baggins
Eldar: Vanyar
Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri
Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir
Humans: line of Elros
Gimli the Dwarf
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi
Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Wargs
Dwarves
Goldberry
Denethor
Boromir
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians
Humans: the Druedain
Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)
Meriadoc Brandybuck
Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Saruman divested
Grishnakh
Half-orcs
Uruk hai
Orcs
Gollum
Hobbits
Goblins
Spiders

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Old 03-20-2006, 03:10 AM   #56
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The Pukel-men

I think that the Woses (Druedain) should come down the list of humans, maybe at the end, as they are quite primitive. Also you have still not put The Mearas (Nahar and Shadowfax) in.
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narfforc
I think that the Woses (Druedain) should come down the list of humans, maybe at the end, as they are quite primitive. Also you have still not put The Mearas (Nahar and Shadowfax) in.
Primitive is in the eye of the beholder, don't you think? My sense was that they were close enough to the earth such that they had not lost the blessing of Yavanna. But I didn't have it that clearly thought out until just now.

Where would you put the Mearas? Basically, they're horses that were bred in Valinor by the Eldar, and the understand human speech with an intelligence beyond typical animal. Seems to me, that puts them up there with Huan?
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Old 03-20-2006, 01:57 PM   #58
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I don't understand what Melian is doing so far below the other Maia, particularly as no-one, not even Morgoth, could get through her girdle...and IMO Feanor's too high up.
Are you talking Feanor with or without Sils? Sauron with or without ring?
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Old 03-20-2006, 09:29 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith
I don't understand what Melian is doing so far below the other Maia, particularly as no-one, not even Morgoth, could get through her girdle...and IMO Feanor's too high up.
Are you talking Feanor with or without Sils? Sauron with or without ring?
You make a good point regarding Melian.

I had Feanor lower, but people pointed out that he took on a whole squadron of Balrogs! Do you think the Silmarils actually enhanced his effect upon Arda?

As for Sauron, I suppose we could distinguish between the two, as I've done with Gandalf the Grey & White. Where would you place the two types of Dark Lord?
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Old 03-21-2006, 03:36 AM   #60
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Question

Does "power" include self-control? If so, Feanor should definately be lower. Turin too, probably.
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Old 03-22-2006, 05:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Does "power" include self-control? If so, Feanor should definately be lower. Turin too, probably.
If it were the main ingredient, I'd agree! It is an ingredient, though; just imagine if those two had it!
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:30 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
I'm moving Hobbits above Spiders. Think of the incident in the Hobbit. How many Spiders were there? What if there were as many Hobbits as Spiders ... on neutral ground? That's the trouble though: the Spiders would probably win in Mirkwood, and the Hobbits would win in the Shire. However, that's only in battle. The Hobbit culture is definitely superior to that of Spiders. Hobbits up.
This exemplifies what Underhill and C7A were referring to. Bilbo defeated the spiders; but would Ted Sandyman have half a chance?

I do appreciate your statement regarding Catholicism, spirituality, and hierarchies. "I too am a man under authority, and I say to this soldier...." etc. But that (then) brings it down to the hierarchy of individuals, does it not? Bilbo over spiders, Ted Sandyman under spiders.

And what if some of the spiders are cowardly, and some are braver than others?

Could even Bilbo have defeated Shelob-- with Sting but without the phial of Galadriel? How much of Hobbits-Defeating-Spiders depends on Elvish artistry and contributions? How well would Bilbo have done with a normal dagger instead of Sting? Does it matter?

Personally, I'd get flummoxed (as you can see) just having to sort two or three characters. I'm rather impressed that you've gotten this far. Please continue having fun & sorting the list. I'm going to go compare your ranking for Shelob and Aragorn....
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Old 03-23-2006, 08:36 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
I had Feanor lower, but people pointed out that he took on a whole squadron of Balrogs!
Bilbo took on Smaug. So why isn't he above Smaug? Bard killed Smaug. I dunno. THe whole point of good stories is the surprises. As long as these rules are "meant to be broken..." (are they?)

ps. Where IS Bilbo? ... And Sam defeated Shelob. Why's he so low on the list...? I guess I don't yet understand the logic.

Cheers, lmp, and enjoy!

EDIT post-script:

Okay. I think I see what bugs me. "Bur Frodo was not your average hobbit." The good stories are about the exceptions to the rules. But they are operating within the averages, aren't they? Bilbo (in Mirkwood) outsmarts numerous average spiders. (Bilbo is exceptional.) Gollum outsmarts lots of (average) orcses. (Gollum is exceptional.)

It seems to me you need -- scratch that, rudely put, sorry, rephrase. If I was tackling this, I would need (at least) two lists: First, a general hierarchy of races. Then hierarchies of the individuals within races. And I guess then, hierarchies of individuals that exceeded where their races were. Or something like that. (cue Underhill's Rock/scissors/paper analogy here; brilliant point IMO.) Anyway: to me it makes more sense to
--- graph this in at least 2-D, race-wise
--- distinguish between "average" and "exceptional" individuals

....must go. Wish I could linger.
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Old 03-24-2006, 03:40 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12_30
Bilbo took on Smaug. So why isn't he above Smaug? Bard killed Smaug. I dunno. THe whole point of good stories is the surprises. As long as these rules are "meant to be broken..." (are they?)

ps. Where IS Bilbo? ... And Sam defeated Shelob. Why's he so low on the list...? I guess I don't yet understand the logic.
Bilbo outsmarted Smaug for a while, because Smaug allowed him to (after an initial wavering, because Bilbo had an unfamiliar scent) like a cat playing with a mouse (at least, that's how I read it).

I think Sam didn't defeat Shelob. It's more that she unwillingly commited hara-kiri.
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Old 03-24-2006, 04:19 AM   #65
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Do you think the Silmarils actually enhanced his effect upon Arda?
Well...I remember some quote from the Silmarillion, when Luthien wore the Silmaril, set in the Necklace of the Dwarves, "no Elf would dare assail her."
It was only when the Silmaril passed to Dior that the sons of Feanor rose up again.
I'd always thought that it was power of Luthien + power of Sil = unassailable.

But maybe it was just the power of Luthien herself.
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Old 03-24-2006, 06:49 AM   #66
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Maybe it was because Luthien was so beloved by the elves, that the Sons Of Feanor feared more the backlash, and were willing to wait their time, than be utterly vanquished by those who would be outraged by any assault.
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:06 PM   #67
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Sorry for responding to this after so much passage of time. Much has been distracting me of late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen
Bilbo defeated the spiders; but would Ted Sandyman have half a chance?
I daresay Ted Sandyman had enough orcish in him to go below hobbits. Which means I'm changing hobbits to be higher than orcs. Not in bodily strength, but in moral, cultural, and generally human superiority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen
I do appreciate your statement regarding Catholicism, spirituality, and hierarchies. "I too am a man under authority, and I say to this soldier...." etc. But that (then) brings it down to the hierarchy of individuals, does it not? Bilbo over spiders, Ted Sandyman under spiders.
Perhaps. Why is this necessarily so? I don't follow the reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen
And what if some of the spiders are cowardly, and some are braver than others?
This isn't a concern because the only individual 'spiders' Tolkien described were Ungoliant and Shelob, and their 'characters' are clearly dilineated so that placing them in the hierarchy is a matter of discerning and cataloguing superior versus inferior character traits. And Earendilyon's points are apt in this consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen
Could even Bilbo have defeated Shelob-- with Sting but without the phial of Galadriel? How much of Hobbits-Defeating-Spiders depends on Elvish artistry and contributions? How well would Bilbo have done with a normal dagger instead of Sting?
A valid question. It depends upon the significance of Sting and the Ring in Bilbo's encounter with the spiders. My conclusion on this is that without the Ring or Sting, Bilbo still would be superior to one spider, perhaps in combat, but most certainly in culture and moral superiority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen
Does it matter?
For the sake of this discussion, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen
THe whole point of good stories is the surprises. As long as these rules are "meant to be broken..." (are they?)
I'm not making rules. I'm doing something descriptive. As such, I suppose you could say that I'm building guidelines for the description, but I'm no authority. Just enjoying the pursuit. It is succeeding in helping me find a new way to get back into the stories. I know the stories too well, almost; so now I have a new lens through which to observe the many characters in the Legendarium. As to surprises, are they not very often generated by character? "This is what Sauron's like, so this is what's going to happen." "'Gollum would do such and such, wouldn't do so and so." This is viewing things from what is possibly an authorial perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith
Do you think the Silmarils actually enhanced his effect upon Arda?
Luthien wore the Silmaril, set in the Necklace of the Dwarves ... "no Elf would dare assail her." ... It was only when the Silmaril passed to Dior that the sons of Feanor rose up again. .... I'd always thought that it was power of Luthien + power of Sil = unassailable. ... But maybe it was just the power of Luthien herself.
I think you were right in what you always thought. Luthien was of course powerful in her own right. Add the silmaril to that, and her might is increased to something greater than Feanor's since his power was self-seeking and hers was based in love. She was, I believe, one of the most important characters in the entire Legendarium. Maybe THE most important ... to Tolkien?

The sons of Feanor may have feared a backlash, but I think that merely political motivation pales by comparison to the spiritual power of love in Luthien, kindled to greater heights by the light of the holy trees in the silmaril.
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Old 03-24-2006, 11:10 PM   #68
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Guiding Principle: Context is the determiner.

Eru Ilúvatar
Melkor the Morgoth (primordial)
Manwë Súlimo
Ulmo
Varda Elbereth Gilthoniel

Yavanna Kementári
Aulë
Oromë
Mandos
Lorien

Nienna
Tulkas Astaldo
Morgoth (earthbound)
Estë
Vairë

Vana
Nessa
Arien
Tilion
Ancalagon

Ungoliant
Sauron
Eonwë
Uinen
Ossë

Glaurung
Melian
Olórin
Curumo
Aiwendil

Pallando
Alatar
Salmar
Eärendil amongst the stars
Thorondor

Gwaihir
Landroval
Eagles of Manwë
Hawks of Manwë
Smaug

Gandalf the White
Saruman the White
Lúthien Tinúviel
Fëanor
Galadriel

Fingolfin
Fingon
Finrod Felagund
Gandalf the Grey
Gothmog the Balrog

Balrogs
Elwë Thingol
Finwë
Olwë
Finarfin

Eärwen of Alqualondë
Turgon
Maedhros
Idril Celebrindal
Angrod

Orodreth
Finduilas
Aegnor
Glorfindel
Celebrian

Elrond
Celeborn
Huan
Carcharoth
Witch King of Angmar

Khamul, 2nd Nazgúl
Nazgúl
Tuor
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)

Beren
Eärendil in Middle Earth
Elwing
Gil-galad
Círdan

Elros
Aredhel
Maglor
Amrod
Amras

Eöl
Maeglin
Celegorm
Curufin
Caranthir

Elladan
Elrohir
Arwen Undómiel
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast the Brown

Blue Istari
Shelob
Tom Bombadil
Treebeard
Ents

Mearas
Trolls
Beleg
Frodo Baggins (the nine fingered)
Eldar: Vanyar

Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri

Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir

Humans: line of Elros
Dúrin I
Azaghàl
Gimli the Dwarf
Beorn

Dain Ironfoot
Balin lord of Moria
Thorin Oakenshield
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi

Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Dwarves

Goldberry
Denethor

Eärnur
Boromir
Bard
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians

Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)

Bilbo Baggins
Meriadoc Brandybuck

Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Hobbits
Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgúl

Mouth of Sauron
Saruman divested
Ravens
Crows
Wargs


Ted Sandyman
Gríma Wormtongue
Sméagol
Half-orcs
Uruk hai

Orcs

Gollum
Spiders

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Old 03-24-2006, 11:33 PM   #69
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1420!

Can't we all just agree that things are based on situation?

Looking at that list, I'd put Luthien above Gandalf. Putting all of Angband to sleep is enough to qualify her for a higher position. Also, since Tolkien set the situation at Minas Tirith to appear as a clash of equals, I would put Gandalf the White and the Witch-King side by side. This is a list, yes, but due to no conflict at the gates of Minas Tirith and the way the passage was written, the best choice in my opinion would be to list them as equals.

In the end, however, I would agree that the situation is too important a factor. The only characters that can safely be put on the list are Eru and Tom Bombadil. Even that is unsure.
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:05 AM   #70
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And Nienna, who influenced Olorin so much? Just think of her lessons of pity and the role pity plays in LotR.
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:57 AM   #71
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How right Bethberry, how influential and important was Nienna in the outcome of the fate of Arda. I have thought much on Olorin and his wanderings to her house, and how her teachings of endurance of hope, shine through Gandalf into Middle-Earth. Surely pity it is which saved the day, and did that voice of pity in Frodo's head, have it's origin in Nienna.
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Old 03-25-2006, 02:33 PM   #72
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And Nienna, who influenced Olorin so much? Just think of her lessons of pity and the role pity plays in LotR.
Nienna, Estë, and Vairë have not been placed because their integration into the list in relation to the males is uncertain and undiscussed so far. See my post above.

What moved Varda and Yavanna back on top of Ulmo? And the other rankings of the males [Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas]? The order prior to my post was restored in this last list.
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Old 03-25-2006, 08:26 PM   #73
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Oops! I fear that I used the wrong base list for my update. Which is why I need to have just one list. From now on I'll link to that one list. Sorry. I'll go fix.

The Updated List

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Old 03-25-2006, 09:14 PM   #74
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As I can see the whole of this as a nice exercise, I would really like to hear the point of this all. In the tradition of scholastics from the middle-ages, it is downright understandable to search for the "order of creation", where every being had its place in the order of things, created by the supreme craftsman. But would Tolkien had such a thomistic view of the world? (He was catholic, to be sure, but anyway.) And how can you compare individuals with "races" or "subcultures", and put them in the same line?

The Nienna -affair seems to me the most telling one: Gandalf is the hero of the story, but he could not be, what he is, without Nienna.

But what about Tom Bombadill? He (and Goldberry) are not seduced by the ring - neither are they able to use it (?) - but still controlling it, seeing through it and being able to understand it. They are powers beoynd the Middle-Earth proper. Like the ents, they are somewhat immune to these petty skirmishes of men versus the evil.

I can see the LotR and Silm. as stories about the Valar, the Maiar, the elves (elevated mankind), men and the evil. These last ones seem to be the focus. The others are important, but not in the same league with the earlier ones. The Maiar are the tools of the Vala, and that's simple. But the Ents, Tom & Goldberry, the dwarves (due to their birth)? They seem to have some kind of justification of their own, not readily compared to other players on the scene?

So basically it's a question of humans trying to resist the evil, and that's it? These others have their role in the making their part of the affairs, but the scope is on people. These "middle-ones" just play in to the hands of the narration. Nevertheless, these others being much more powerful and independent of the things men (hobbits?) hold dear, they really rise in stature in the eyes of the reader. They are the heroes, without being heroes....
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Old 03-26-2006, 12:57 PM   #75
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Quote:
The Nienna -affair seems to me the most telling one: Gandalf is the hero of the story, but he could not be, what he is, without Nienna.
Nienna's placement above Gandalf is not disputed - it is a given.

Not only is she in the top 16 by being one of the Valar - she is in the top ten as she is listed as one of the Aratar.

The Silmarillion:

Quote:
Among them Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë. [...] surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä.
Unlike the separate Valar/Valier lists, the listing of the Aratar is apparently not in order since it conflicts with those lists - Oromë is listed 'in due order' before Mandos.

Quote:
The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa.
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Old 03-26-2006, 02:29 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas
Nienna, Estë, and Vairë have not been placed because their integration into the list in relation to the males is uncertain and undiscussed so far. See my post above.

What moved Varda and Yavanna back on top of Ulmo? And the other rankings of the males [Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas]? The order prior to my post was restored in this last list.
I asked about Nienna because originally the list in post # 68 included Nessa, but not Nienna, and I wondered how dancing on the green, green grass of home would merit a citation but weeping upon Ezellohar in order to help The Two Trees come forth did not, as well as weeping upon the ruined ground of Ezellohar in order to clear away the defilement of Ungoliant. To say nothing of the lesson of endurance and hope, and of course pity, as narfforc said more eloquently than I.

But I see that the man poet edited his list last night, so that original cause for query has been removed.
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Old 03-26-2006, 02:59 PM   #77
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My comment still stands...she was not included yet because her placement among the males had not been discussed to that point. The list has rolling admission.
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Old 03-27-2006, 08:35 PM   #78
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Thank you littlemanpoet for at least putting our brethren on the list, but i still have to ask Where are the other dwarves????? where among the creations of Eru ( and of couse of Mathar) do we have our well deserved place in the list..... almost at the bottom¡? humans and even hobbits have their own "individual" champions, so
what about our greatest father Dúrin or the great deeds of Azaghàl fron Belelgost of whom even the great worm ran away from on the Nirnaeth. then there is of course the great battle of the five armies (in wich even tough slained, i died from many wounds from many foes and killed the orc leader) ,Dain ironfoot or even more recently Balin lord of moria... i think that at least one of them should rank above Gimli (with all due respect to thy son of Glóin) even tough it has been telled that only him among the creations of mathar-eru ever saw the blessed kingdom in life....
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Old 03-27-2006, 10:21 PM   #79
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Why does everyone have such a boner for the Witch-King? He's way too high on your list. Being scary to Hobbits and average Men doesn't make someone powerful. He shouldn't be above any Eldar (seriously, are you joking or just trying to bait me?), nor should he be above Hurin or Turin or Huan or any of the Istari. Wait, you even gauged him above Balrogs? He was a MAN with delusions of invulnerability and a knack for freaking people out: Hurin would have laughed in his skinny face.

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Old 03-28-2006, 12:08 AM   #80
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Quote:
But maybe it was just the power of Luthien herself.

-and-

Maybe it was because Luthien was so beloved by the elves, that the Sons Of Feanor feared more the backlash, and were willing to wait their time, than be utterly vanquished by those who would be outraged by any assault.
I suspect her maniacal, bloodthirsty husband and the Ents probably had more to do with it than anything.

While I on the whole find this exercise to be a bit…hmmm…silly…I am curious as to why the Wargs in general are above the dwarves. The citable instance is when they chase the dwarves up the trees. However, Gandalf was right up there with them, most of the dwarves were unarmed, and they were grotesquely outnumbered (I suspect the unarmed bit was the decisive factor…the fact that Tolkien portrayed the dwarves as setting out on the quest totally unarmed is one of my greatest problems with The Hobbit, but that is a matter for another time). The dwarves did not seem particularly bothered by wargs in the Battle of Five Armies. The wargs didn’t develop a civilization…even the orcs had a rudimentary…uhhh…culture.

“But they were just animals and couldn’t manipulate tools,” you say.

"Exactly!" I reply.
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