"...until my task is done..."

[The Perky Ent]

After breifly skimming The Two Towers, I noticed in "The White River" that Gandalf said he was brought back until his task was done. If this is true, then technically, could Gandalf continue to die, only to reincarnate and walk the earth again? Would this statment be true, or is it a run of the mill kinda thing? Is this reincarnation something acessable to all wizards, or just Galdalf? It probably wouldn't be available to Saruman, as that would only bring a supporter of Sauron back to life. But Radagast? This is a mind-boggler!

[Finwe]

The only reason that Gandalf was "reincarnated" was that he was the only Istar who got even close to succeeding in his mission. We all know what happened to Saruman, Radagast got overly interested in the intricacies of bird and animal feed, and Alatar and Pallando ran off and got themselves lost. Gandalf was the only one who had some semblance of common sense and knowledge of what he was doing. If he croaked, then the whole mission of the Istari would have failed. The Valar and Eru couldn't let that happen. So, they spruced him Gandy, gave him a promotion, and sent him right on back.

[Knight of Gondor]

Good question, and doubtlessly one better answered by people such as Legolas, who are well-versed in the lore of the Rings. At any rate, here's my answer.

Gandalf was granted return to Arda on special grant from the Valar. I do not think he would continually be returned, if he failed again -- he was just...given another shot at it.

[Gorwingel]

Well I guess we could think about this in the way of if Gandalf had let say died at the battle of the Pelennor Fields or at Helm's Deep would he have come back?

Well I would say yes. Because as others have said he was working towards the task (defeating Sauron), and it just happened that he got "delayed" in a way. But if he would have not been working towards the task, he probably would have not been sent back.

Like if it would have been a thousand years earlier, and lets say he tripped and fell into a river and drowned. I doubt that he would have been reincarnated for that reason

[HerenIstarion]

Radagast got overly interested in the intricacies of bird and animal feed

Since Radagast was specially chosen by Yavanna (and forced upon Saruman for the company), it may be presumed that that was the main idea of sending him along, though it be in contradiction with

Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts").

Unfinished Tales

[Noxomanus]

I believe each one of the Wizards had their own inclinations and specific task apart from the shared one. The UT mentions:

"It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together as a small central body of power and wisdom; and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind." (UT,'The Istari',p. 510)

This could mean that what Radagast,Allatar and Pallando did,was part of a personal mission,specific to each of them. I can only suspect Yavanna wanted one of her Maiar to go as an Istar, perhaps to let the animals play part in the fall of Sauron or to make bridges between humanoids on one side and animals on the other. It's likely Radagast became too much centred on his personal mission and more or less neglected the common mission of the Istari.

Of Allatar and Pallando it's of course far more difficult to say anything about their personal mission. I do think that they,as Maiar of Oromë,were perhaps destined or commanded to go the East and stay there. I think the fact that Allatar took Pallando 'as a friend' and that he wasn't chosen by a Valar was the reason why both of them were clad in Blue----They came to share the personal mission appointed to the Blue and as such,had the same colour.

Gandalf was perhaps chosen for his humbleness and love of the Eldar (as well as his wisdom) and may have had the personal mission of ever-travelling wise man befriending all folks in time of need and in fact uniting them by their trust in him. Perhaps this was why he received a Ring. It would greatly help him with his personal mission,and Cirdan may have forseen it.

At last Saruman. His personal mission may have been to serve as the leader of the Istari. This may have been done because he was a Maia of Aulë,like Sauron was and he might be expected to be the one most able to understand and foresee Saurons actions as they were most similiar....more similiar in the end then was good for Curumo himself.

From the chapter The White Rider. "Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done."

From the chapter Homeward Bound. "My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to right, nor to help folk do so."

It is interesting to me the fact that people generally consider Gandalf's event as a reincarnation, when in fact he "resurrected". Reincarnation is the notion of dying and being born again, in a different new body. Resurrection is when somebody dies but comes back to life in his same body. I think that's why he said that he was "sent back". Also, keep in mind that reincarnation involves the process of being born, which means that your body must be born from another body.

I feel this is crucial, since this is not the case for any maia that looses for former body and gets another. Sauron lost his body after being thrown down by Gil-galad and Elendil, and he had to spend some time to develop another body (I cannot consider this as reincarnation). Gandalf, on the other hand, returned to his body.

Now, if you check appendix B it says that the Istari "were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unit all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."

Basically, the task of every istar was to unite the people of Middle Earth, in order to help them defeat Sauron, but they were not allowed to fight Sauron with power. This "power" dilemma was the reason of Saruman's change, and his final doom.

Gandalf, unlike the other istari, remained faithful to his task, and I guess that is the reason of his resurrection. He proved faithful to Ilúvatar, instead of being corrupted, or changing his fate to another thing (like Radagast).

At the end he says why his task is over, and we can easily conclude that it is because Sauron's power has been diminished and he is non longer a threat to Middle Earth.

I do not think that Gandalf should continue to "reincarnate", simply because of two things: (1) he never reincarnated, (2) his nature is that of the ainur, speciafically from the order of the maiar, which are not beings from Arda.

Being a maia, and being his task fulfilled, he was no longer needed in Middle Earth, and maybe he might need to take care of other tasks he probably had in Valinor.

[Lost One]

The idea that Gandalf was the only member of the Istari faithful to his trust was an idea Tolkien developed some time after writing LOTR, as part of his tendency to play up a fiew major figures - Gandalf and Galadriel above all. In the LOTR there is no indication that Radagast is anything other than a functioning wizard held in high regard by the other leaders of the west: 'the honest Radagast' as Gandalf describes him. We see him doing the bidding of Saruman, head of theWhite Council, and then fuflilling Gandalf's request, and thus in effect rescuing him from Orthanc. Elrond' messengers seek him out after the Council of Elrond, but he is away from home, perhaps still carrying out his task of rousing the good birds and beasts, and who knows what he did during the War - was active in Mirkwood or assisted the Beornings perhaps.

Tolkien also revisited the Istari question on several occasions, and the idea that Gandalf was the only faithful one was not always maintained, even in the later writings - he did not have a settled view.

Having recently bought The Letters of JRR Tolkien I found a letter that may add to the discussion. In one part of this letter, Tolkien is talking about how Gandalf's function as a wizard is to assist the "...rational creatures of ME to resist Sauron..." and that the wizards of ME since they are incarnated in the life forms of ME they also suffer the pains of mind and body.

"...They were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate:the possibility of 'fall', of sin. The chief form...being impatience, leading to the desire of force others to do their own good ends...To this evil Saruman succumbed. Gandalf did not. But the situation became much worse by the fall of Saruman , that the good were obliged to greater effort and sacrifiice. Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare write." Letters #181 Pg. 237

From this letter, I think that the death and return of Gandalf was a one shot deal in response to the grievous fall of Saruman.

Roxbury

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I wonder...did Gandalf's possession of one of the three elven rings of power (Narya) when he fell have anything to do with the reason he was sent back?

[Lobelia]

I got the impression that, having finished his task, - and yes, resurrection rather than reincarnation was the right word -Gandalf was going home - you know, back to the pile of unanswered mail that had accumulated over the last several thousand years, etc. :-) Yet I suspect he would miss ME. I bet there are no pubs in Valinor and definitely no pipeweed and nothing but "artistes" to mingle with. As wizards go, Gandalf was very human. It must have been hard for him to tell the hobbits at the end that they were on their own now, because he was going home.

[HerenIstarion]

I wonder...did Gandalf's possession of one of the three elven rings of power (Narya) when he fell have anything to do with the reason he was sent back

I'd say it's the other way round - the possesion of the ring was the consequence of his main task - it was helping him to encourage free people. Quote by Cirdan when he was handing down the ring may come in handy, if anyone can paste it here. It was something along the lines - "you need it more than me, and it will awaken fire of hearts"

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I wondered if Gandalf's possession of the ring is what necessitated him coming back to ME. I assume Gandalf left ME when he fell/died (whatever it was that he did!), but the ring was associated with ME (its power and reason for existing) and needed to be brought back.

Any thoughts on this matter?

Here is the quote of Cirdan:

"Take now this ring for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."

[HerenIstarion]

thanks for the quote

No, the possession of the ring was not the reason of his coming back. It may be viewed as divine act (there are speculations as to was Gandalf sent back by Valar or by Eru Himself, I lean over to the latter theory)

[luthien-elvenprincess]

I also feel that it was Eru that sent Gandalf back. But, I wonder what would have come of the ring that Gandalf held if he had not been sent back. Would someone else have had to bring it back? Just something about which to scratch one's head and think, "hum..".

[HerenIstarion]

Presumably, the ring never left the top of the Stairs. The whole leaving/being sent back business took place on the spiritual level. Gandalf was resurrected into the body which was lying on top to the mountain, sword, staff, ring and all.

Yes, there is the passage about "naked I was sent back into the world", but I always thought of it as figure of speech, stating his spiritual position rather than corporeal one - otherwise,

A) the imposed restrictions of travel in bodily form apply
B) no reason to come back to the inconvenient place on top of some mountain (with the possibility of the reason being the wish to pick up his stuff, of course )
C) in coming back on top ot the mountain, he would be exposed to the unpleasant view of his own previous body lying up there

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Yes, HerenIstarion, you are right. Of course, Gandalf's physical body would have stayed in ME with all his effects. I didn't think about him leaving ME in the spiritual sense. I think I got mixed up thinking about his physical body being changed from grayish to white, and began to conjecture a somatic trip for him instead of a spiritual journey. You have answered my question. Thanks.

Gandalf's words, "naked I was sent back..." can be understood as a returning of his spirit when you compare text with Luthien's words to Sauron in The Sil.

Luthien came to (Sauron), and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn...'

Obviously, the naked self spoken of here is the spirit, not the naked physical body.

[Maerbenn]

From letter #156:

’Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done’. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed ‘out of thought and time’. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, ‘unclothed like a child’ (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.

[HerenIstarion]

thanks for the great quote, Maerbenn

correction than - 'naked I was sent' with the meaning of the naked body on the top of the mountain, not naked spirit (though in my previous I was thinking of spirit inside the body feeling naked as being for the first time into the enormous world). May readiness to receive white robes be interpreted somehow not bodily only?

The rest of my argument stands as it was - the body is the same as was slain, and Gandalf is resurrected, not reincarnated.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Some fragmented quotes from the Ainulindale :

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue: and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in majesty and spendour. ...they need it not (their shape), save only as we use raiment,... Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. ...they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.

Then Melkor was what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful... His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and teribble.

I understand these passages to say that the Divinity (or spirit, or energy, whatever you want to call it) of each of the Valar clothed themselves in a body when they entered Arda. The taking-on of shape and hue by the Valar is compared to the wearing of clothing. Therefore, to use the term 'naked' in refering to them in their divinity/spirit/energy state can be considered accurate.

The Valar are discarnate until they take shape to themselves. The text indicates the shape and hue that each took on was based on what they already were as spirit/energy/divinity; they didn't choose the shape and hue to show what they were. As the text indicates, we (humans) are not male and female because of what we wear; but, we dress as male or female because of what we already are. (Let's not even get into the cross-dressing issue! )
Melkor was a dark and terrible shape because of who he was, and who he was, was also partially determined by what he did. The reason that Gandalf came back to his bodily form and was Gandalf the White was because of who he (his spirit/energy/divinity) was at that time. He received a more exalted position from what he had before because of what he did in carrying out the will of Iluvatar.
So, the nakedness that Gandalf speaks of could very well be the state of his discarnate self in returning to Arda and to his naked (in the context of clothing) physical body. The receiving of white robes was a honor given to Gandalf prior to returning and was reflected in the body to which he returned.

[HerenIstarion]

The difference being, Gandalf (as opposed to time when he was Olorin) is 'truly' incarnate, not 'clothed', i.e. while clothed Valar and Maiar may eat not, and suffer not the hunger, Gandalf, incarnate into real flash, would starve. He was not able to drop his visible form at will, nor assume it again at will. He was truly slain and resurrected into the same form, and, I believe, not because of what he was, but because the body left on the site was the same. The changed status of indwelling spirit made it more powerful.

As for the changed status - the whole affair is reminiscent of Christ conquering death (even the timing in between his death and resurrection)