Gandalf a "steward?"

[The Saucepan Man]

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

My mind's not made up either way- though since I lean Davem-wise in this matter, I guess I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here. Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go.

Denethor WAS Boromir's commander-in-chief. If he accepted Aragorn as rightful king- which we are given to understand he did- then Aragorn's right supercedes that of Denethor's.

Whether or not Boromir would consider Aragorn's decision as right, and if he thought it wrong and thus becoming a potential breeding ground for him rejecting Aragorn's claim, is another matter. As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim, and thus Aragorn's decision would have outranked his preference... After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Again, just playing the Devil's Advocate.

[davem]

Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go…

As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim,

But had he 'accepted him as rightful king?' I don't see that from his words. Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

And yes, davem, I am talking about book Boromir.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

It matters whether he was (in his own mind) obeying a Royal Command, or an order from someone in temporary authority of the Company of the Ring. What you seem to be leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir is the Captain General of the Armies of Minas Tirith & therefore the Second in Command of the Gondorian Army. He has been on a mission to Rivendell for his CiC, & his expressed intent has always been to return to his father to report what he has discovered & take up his military command again. As he has at no point specifically accepted Aragorn's claim to the kingship, I can't see that anything has happened to alter his perceved duty. There's that line in The Sil about 'those who would uphold authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. You seem to be basing your assessment of his actions/choices on his being a free agent - which he in no way is. Merry & Pippin were not his 'charges'. He was told to find & protect them in a particular set of circumstances. Of course, if Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli had not been able to go after them he would have been put in a difficult situation. Plus, you're assuming Aragorn would not have 'commanded' him to go home anyway - which is likely. Also, if he hadn't died we don't know how strong his 'repentance' would have been. Impending mortality is both a shock to the system & focusses the mind wonderfully. He may actually have gone after Frodo instead - perhaps not to try to take the Ring again, but to protect him.

Now, if the Orcs had grabbed M&P & run off I've no doubt that he would have run after them in the heat of the moment, so its possible he could have ended up following along with Aragorn & the others, but I don't think this is what you're arguing. You seem to be saying that in the position of the others he would have made a conscious decision to go after them. I just can't see him doing that at all. His first duty was to his people & as 'a man of honour I can't see him deserting his post. M&P are just not that important militarily - & that's how Boromir thinks.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

Continuing from my previous Devil's Advocate line of thought: Aragorn was, as soon as he started heading to Gondor, the King, if as yet uncrowned. If Boromir accepted his claim as valid (and I would read it that way, even if you would not), then he has to take Aragorn as King right now. The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

A king, if his claim is legitimate (and while Aragorn's claim was legally debatable, the Palantír issue should prove that it is correct) then he is King the INSTANT the previous king died. Now, in Aragorn's case, the last King of Gondor was Eärnur, and the last King of Arthedain was Arvedui- so it's not quite the same situation. But as soon as he revealed his lineage to Boromir in Rivendell, had Narsil reforged, and declared his intent to seek and aid Minas Tirith, he was declaring himself the rightful Heir- and with no King alive, the rightful heir IS the rightful king. To use a modern analogy, the instant Queen Elizabeth II passes away, Prince Charles will BE Charles III, King of Great Britain and Northern Island (and King of Canada, for that matter...).

[davem]

Well, Aragorn has a claim to the Kingship, but if no-one accepts him he isn't technically king. Where is it stated (or even implied) that Boromir has accepted Aragorn's kingship? He says 'Go to Minas Tirith and save my people!'. That's it. Now, of course, the guys about to croak, so he doesn't have time to go through an oath of fealty & all the rest of the rigmarole, so it could be taken as an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship. On the other hand, it could be taken as Boromir the Captain Genereal of Gondor giving an order to a subordinate. Having said that he does clearly believe that Aragorn has some chance of doing that.

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

..............

King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony...

you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you....

...if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

This discussion is intriguing, though it has strayed far from its original topic (as threads often do).

Regarding the legitimacy of Aragorn's claim to the throne, I point out again that his claim to the throne was as the Heir of Elendil, not as the Heir of Isildur. He was the only man on Middle-earth who could inherit any of Elendil's rights and properties. I would also add that, though it makes little difference, he was descended from Anarion as well as Isildur, for Arvedui had wedded Firiel, daughter of King Ondoher and a direct descendant of Anarion.
I would also add that the Council of Gondor likely was a sort of Supreme Court, where decisions might be made and then overturned. Obviously, allowing Aragorn to become king overturned the decision against Arvedui way back when. So Aragorn's kingship was not illegal in any sense. Not to say that anyone on this thread has said that, but it seems to be implied in some cases.

Of course, one may fire back that I have a vested interest in defending Aragorn's right to the throne, since he is one of my favorite characters in Tolkien. This is a genetic fallacy, but it is sadly also true. With that, I leave you.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

So Aragorn's kingship was not illegal in any sense. Not to say that anyone on this thread has said that, but it seems to be implied in some cases.

I think it would come under 'Not Proven'. Yes, the Council's decisions could be overturned, but the Arvedui decision had not yet been overturned when Boromir died (or when Denethor died, come to that).

It was Aragorn's generalship in the war which won him the Kingship - his ancestry was merely the 'icing on the cake'. If the West had won the war but he'd proved an incompetent leader I've no doubt that even if his ancestry was accepted by all & sundry he'd have fared no better than Arvedui. They wanted the victorious warrior, the wise counselor whose hands brought healing & as soon as there was evidence of some hereditary connection with the Royal House his position was assured. In other words, what got him the kingship was his prowess & leadership qualities, not his blood.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Davem

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

You are arguing Pelendur's case- a case that did not wish to see a stranger from the North sit as his king. Quite apart from the Boromir issue, where I play Devil's Advocate more than Defence Attorney, I would disagree with Pelendur's ruling. Quite possibly, Gondor would have agreed with Arvedui -and me- had he been but able to come to Gondor and put forward his case properly and in person. But Angmar threatened and such things were not possible.

That does not negate, however the fact that Isildur's Line had a legitimate claim. Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

Furthermore, although Pelendur and the Council of Gondor reject Arvedui's claim, it seems clear that Tolkien does not. Since Tolkien is the creator of Middle-Earth, he ought to be it's final authority, no?

*Insert HERE Davem's counter-argument that Tolkien is enjoying his Translator's Conceit and that this is simply that Translator's opinion on the subject, and does not need to be taken as fact. To save time, I'll state that I disagree with that opinion emphatically.*

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

Whether or not Boromir accepted Aragorn as Rightful King, we cannot demonstrate clearly from the texts. My reading of it says that he did. My reading of it also says that Balrogs have no wings, that Elves have normalish ears, and that it is fundamentally Catholic. There is, on any of these topics, no clear, complete statement that makes it completely obvious to everyone what is the case- though there are certainly enough statements that from my point of view it ought to be OBVIOUS.

Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did.

And, somewhat offtopically, for the record, I hold James II (Stuart) to have been Rightful King of England, his son to have been the rightful James III, and Bonnie Prince Charlie to have been the Rightful King Charles III (which would thus have made the current Prince Charles, Charles IV). This could possibly have something to do with my Catholic upbringing: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's".

[davem]

Isildur AND Anárion were Kings of Gondor. Possibly, it would have been most proper and correct for Gondor to have remained a Dual Monarchy. After all, there were two thrones set side by side under the Dome in Osgiliath. Although Pelendur makes a good case for the Line of Isildur having forfeited its rights as Kings of Gondor, this is not demonstrably provable from the texts we have in the Appendices, Unfinished Tales, and elsewhere. All that we can DEFINITELY see is that Isildur didn't neglect his inheritance of Arnor.

As I said, 'Not Proven'. Hence, to be decided - & not by the Heir of Isildur, Gandalf, Manwe or Illuvatar, but by the Council & people of Gondor. Do you see Gandalf being able to impose Aragorn on the people of Gondor if they didn't want him? He could only become king when the people accepted him. And I have to say that if Arvedui had turned up in Gondor, with the history of Arnor behind him, I'm not sure the Gondorians would have welcomed him with open arms. The Arnorian kings were just not all that impressive a prospect. For all Pelendur's arguments I think he was just stating the simple truth in a roundabout way - the Arnorians weren't wanted. I can see that Pelendur's arguments are maybe not watertight, but I can also see a good reason for the Gondorians to want to keep the Arnorian kings away from sharp objects not to mention the Throne of Gondor....

[The Saucepan Man]

Davem, I beg to differ.

Originally Posted by davem

What you seem to be leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir is the Captain General of the Armies of Minas Tirith & therefore the Second in Command of the Gondorian Army. He has been on a mission to Rivendell for his CiC, & his expressed intent has always been to return to his father to report what he has discovered & take up his military command again.

And what you are leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir pledged himself to the Fellowship and to its Quest. Under the malign influence of the Ring, preying on his own wish to defend his people, he broke that pledge. I believe that it would have been the realisation of his folly and his genuine repentance that would have guided his actions, had he survived the encounter at Parth Galen. And I believe that he would therefore have sought to honour his pledge. Of course, none of them were bound to remain with the Fellowship, and Boromir had already indicated his intention to part with the company if they were not willing to accompany him to Minas Tirith.

Boromir held out long against this choice; but when it became plain that Frodo would follow Aragorn, wherever he went, he gave in. 'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'

However, that intention was stated before the events of Parth Galen, and at a time while he was still under the influence of the Ring. The sentence that I have emboldened is important, I think. Despite the Ring's influence, this is the "untainted" Boromir speaking. He would not desert his friends at need.

He had already shown compassion for the Hobbits, when the Fellowship was beset by cruel weather on Caradhras.

But I wanted rest and sleep, Bilbo, Frodo answered with an effort, when he felt himself shaken, and he came back painfully to wakefulness. Boromir had lifted him off the ground out of a nest of snow.
'This will be the death of the halflings, Gandalf,' said Boromir. 'It is useless to sit here until the snow goes over our heads. We must do something to save ourselves.'

'Have hope!' said Boromir. 'I am weary, but I still have some strength left, and Aragorn too. We will bear the little folk. The others no doubt will make shift to tread the path behind us. Come, Master Peregrin! I will begin with you.'

Add to that the fact that he had willingly undertaken to protect Merry and Pippin at Parth Galen.

'We shall all be scattered and lost,' groaned Aragorn. 'Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo. Come back to this spot, if you find him, or any traces of him. I shall return soon.'

Whether he accepted Aragorn's command because he recognised his right as King, because he accepted him as de facto leader of the Fellowship or because he himself felt it was the right thing to do matters not. The fact is that he undertook to guard the two young Hobbits and they were lost while under his protection.

Had he survived, both his compassion and his sense of duty (to the Fellowship and more particularly to Merry and Pippin), now free of the Ring's influence, would, I believe him to have led him to accept and follow Aragorn's decision to follow after them. Indeed, I believe that it is a course which he himself would have advocated.

You are right that Boromir and Faramir are not the same person. But the difference between them was in wisdom and judgment, not compassion and sense of duty.

Thinking further on this, there are some interesting parallels here between Faramir and Pippin. Boromir protected Faramir as a child and he is protective towards Pippin both on Caradhras and at Parth Galen. Pippin is later, in Minas Tirith, associated closely with Faramir, being the one who effectively saves his life and later naming his own son after him. I am not saying that Boromir saw his brother in Pippin, but there is certainly a connection of sorts between these three characters, and this reinforces my belief concerning Boromir’s likely choice, had he survived Parth Galen.

[Rhod the Red]

"Whether he accepted Aragorn's command because he recognised his right as King, because he accepted him as de facto leader of the Fellowship or because he himself felt it was the right thing to do matters not. The fact is that he undertook to guard the two young Hobbits and they were lost while under his protection."

Hear, hear!

[tom bombariffic]

I agree.

Also, forgive me if this is a little obvious, but...

Oricinally posted by Formendacil:
Finally, the majority is not always right. If Gandalf, as Head of the Istari- and thus representative of Manwë, Vicegerent of Ilúvatar, says that Aragorn's claim to the throne is Right, then it is Right- whether you want to accept it or no. And I am not arguing here that Boromir accepted it, but that it was Right for him to have accepted it- assuming he did

None of the fellowship, or anyone in a position of influence of Gondor, would have realised that Gandalf was a representative of Manwe. I understand you may have been arguing that we as readers should accept it as right, given our knowledge, but I'm not so sure...in the situation, Gandalf can not wield the authority of Valinor, because authority depends on others' belief in it. If his identity is hidden, his authority vanishes with it. Thus his divine right to appoint a king is revoked, in my opinion.

bombariffic

[Rhod the Red]

The Istari didn't have authority either. They were prohibitted by the Valar from persuing it, in case they sought to dominate the inhabitants of Middle-earth.

[Lalwendë]

I don't see any point where Boromir acknowledges Aragorn as rightful King of Gondor on that journey from Rivendell to Amon Hen. On the contrary, Boromir's actions and speech whenever he is with Aragorn seem quite strained and conflicting at times. They argue and Boromir is on more than one occasion silenced by Aragorn who he does accept, on the surface at least, as leader of this fellowship, but not as his King.

If Boromir is following anyone, then he is following Frodo. He makes a point of asking what the Ringbearer thinks about one choice, and there is this very revealing passage:

Boromir held out long against this choice; but when it became plain that Frodo would follow Aragorn, wherever he went, he gave in. 'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'

Here Boromir also reveals his feelings towards the rest of the fellowship. He says he is their friend and would not desert them for that reason, but then says something about how he perceives their friendship: alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship. He starts off speaking in a high minded tone of honour but ends on a rather sad note. Boromir seems to feel he has no real friends in this Fellowship. Does he truly have no friends? Or are his own goals very much on his mind, driving his actions and speech? That goal, at this point, is to stay with Frodo and to endeavour to persuade Frodo to come to Minas Tirith. Boromir's efforts of persuasion have been subtle, but have been growing ever stronger, mere questioning of their path has passed from moaning and into doomsaying by the time they leave the river. Of course his efforts will culminate in his desperate measures at Amon Hen, when he takes advantage of a wekness in Aragorn's leadership, his indecision.

I think Aragorn knows or at least suspects what Boromir is up to; his efforts at persuasion are growing increasingly less subtle. And I also think that this is causing the relationship between the two men to come under increasing strain.

"Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."

This is also revealing. Boromir, even in death, issues an order. He expects that now Frodo and the Ring have gone, that Aragorn ought to go right away to Minas Tirith. He also calls those people my people. Not our people, let alone, your people, but my people. He has faith in Aragorn at this point, but as King?

Tolkien of course reveals to the reader early on that Aragorn is this rightful King by blood. He also shows us Aragorn's failings and how much he has to learn on his way to the throne e.g. respect for lesser Kings. Likewise he spends most of three books gradually revealing the proofs that Aragorn needs to claim this Kingship, whether symbolic (Palantiri, healing hands etc.) or in his skills as a leader. We have the benefit of knowing Aragorn's destiny, the people he meets, however, do not. In a very real sense he earns his Kingship through merit, and that makes him a better King.

[The 1,000 Reader]

To stay on topic, I always thought Gandalf's quote was simple to understand. When Gandalf was sent back as Gandalf the White, he was apparently granted more power and authority. Since Eru had little to do with Middle-Earth at that time, and since Manwe wasn't doing too much either, Gandalf, in his sent back state, was the "caretaker" of Middle-Earth at the time. In fact, he was the steward of the steward (Manwe) and Eru was the "king."

[Rhod the Red]

"he was apparently granted more power and authority" What makes you say that?

"Gandalf, in his sent back state, was the "caretaker" of Middle-Earth at the time." No he wasn't, the Istari aren't meant to govern Middle-earth, but influence their inhabbitants to resist Sauron.

"he was the steward of the steward" I think you're taking his statement literally, Gandalf was merely speaking in the context of having responsibility for others, to Denethor.

[tom bombariffic]

That's a very good point, 1,000 reader. Of course the only thing was that he was a steward without anyone knowing it, which meant that other big cheeses like Denethor did not recognise him as such.

And yet that is the role that he plays anyway, undercover as it were. Which I think is what Rhod is getting at, saying that they should influence, not govern. But taking everything into account, even if he's not supposed to govern, he effectively does. As I said he does it subtlely, but at various points in the book he does straight out order people around in the defence against Sauron - who could argue that he didn't govern the defence of Minas Tirith?

In the case of great people like Aragorn, Gandalf's help tends to be more of a shove in the right direction, but at points of emergency he is not afraid to take control. In this way he is a steward, or caretaker, whose policy (and duty) is to guide rather than dictate, but who sometimes is forced to take a more governing role out of necessity.

bombariffic

[edit: underlining is good. It clarifies things.]

[narfforc]

I think what The 1,000th Reader alludes to is written in Letters 156 and 181, where Tolkien states that Gandalf returned with enhanced power. Tolkien also wrote this revealing passage:

So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes that was my name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remained similar in personality and idiosyncracy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.
The authority was given to subdue Saruman.

In The Lord of the Rings Companion Note 758 has this interesting comment:

Gandalf's rejoiner.....carries a great many implications in a few words. He is reminding Denethor that he [Gandalf] is a representative of a higher authority than Denethor is (i.e., The Valar and/or Iluvatar). He is reproving Denethor: 'You are answerable to a higher authority.' He is implying that Gondor is part of his own stewardship too, and finally he is pointing out that Gondor is only part of a larger battle.
[Romenna Meeting Report, p.2].

In Letter 286 Tolkien writes: There are no 'Gods', properly so-called, in the mythological background in my stories. Their place is taken by persons referred to as the Valar (or Powers): angelic created beings appointed to the govenment of the world.

In Letter 325 Tolkien writes: The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their will), the Valar or regents under God.........

The meaning of the word regent I take to be thus:
Regent: Ruler of a kingdom during the absence of its Monarch.

I therefore believe that Gandalf/Olorin is a steward of Eru.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by narfforc

He is reminding Denethor that he [Gandalf] is a representative of a higher authority than Denethor is (i.e., The Valar and/or Iluvatar).

This suggests that Denethor was aware of the nature of Gandalf's mision (and that of the other Istari) as emissaries of the Valar (and, ultimately, Eru). Is there anything else to suggest that this may have been the case? I was rather under the impression that only a select few (essentially, the White Council and, possibly, Sauron) were aware of this.

[narfforc]

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

[Rhod the Red]

"there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission." Well, we don't know if Denethor 'suspected' who the Istari were, only Elrond, Cirdian and I think Galadriel knew who they were.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

I'm not so sure that this follows. Not in a fantasy world where Orcs, Ents, Dwarves and the like exist. The Istari deliberately disguised themselves as old men and claimed to be Wizards. That would be sufficient explanation for most. Dragons and Ents lived for thousands of years, but no one surely suspected them of being emissaries of the Valar.

Then again, Denethor was a canny sort and may well have put two and two together. It's possible, but its speculative. I was after some textual or authorial indication.

Originally Posted by narfforc

Gandalf had been around since about TA1000, what other type of being could live over two thousand years, he was quite clearly not an elf, and Denethor was not stupid, Saruman had been given the keys to Orthanc by Beren in 2759, there must have been suspicion as to the nature of these beings and their mission.

I also think Denethor wasn't stupid but it was 250 years ago when Saruman had been given the keys of orthanc and he a lot of other problems then thinking "what are the wizards?"
None knew who they were except the three keepers of the elven-rings.
litle question did Sauron knew who they istari were?

[narfforc]

The Rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world stands, those are my care. As for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I am also a steward. Did you not know?

1. Is Gandalf suprised that Denethor does'nt know?

2. Why ask this question if Gandalf thought Denethor knew?

3a. Gandalf calls himself a steward.

3b. Steward One who manage's anothers property.

3c. Who's property is that then?

The Palantiri showed scenes far away in time and space. A person of strong will could learn to control the palantir and with it see where and whenever he wished.

'Pride and despair!' he cried. Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. Who knows the full extent of what Denethor saw in his palantir, it is not impossible for him to have found out the truth of The Istari.

[Rhod the Red]

"3a. Gandalf calls himself a steward."

In one instance he refered to himself as one. This once, not other times. Other times as wizard. Usually from a third-person perspective though, when talking about 'wizards' and 'The Wise'.

"where and whenever he wished." In the sense that there was no limit? We have no knowledge if there is or isn't a limit. That's conjecture to assert perhaps Denethor somehow saw across the Western seas to Valinor and watched the Istari talk about taking on their role in Middle-earth.

[narfforc]

He need not look that far, however, there again it would not be beyond the power of a palantir to see that far. It is irrelevent when or how many times Gandalf call himself steward, he does so, therefore he clearly sees himself as one, that is the important information he is imparting on you. If he says he is a steward, then he is. The question I asked is why does he ask Denethor if he knew or not, and who's property was he managing

[Boromir88]

After Gandalf died and was sent back by Eru, he was granted more power and authority. For Eru knew now that only Gandalf would be the one to stay true to his task and someone needed to deal with Saruman. Tolkien clearly points this out in Letter 156:

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. [...]He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.

The Valar sent the Istari as a plan in order to help the free people's combat Sauron. After the other Istari failed and Gandalf was the only one who would stay true to the task, the Authority (Eru) got involved and made Gandalf more capable of being able to complete the task.

So, what kind of "authority" did the Istari have, if any? What exactly was their task? Who perhaps knew about them? I think these quotes will answer it to the best that we can:

When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Greatm the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to see to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.~Appendix B: The Third Age

So, the people of Middle-earth see these old men, and they see them as "messengers" sent to contest Sauron. I think this quote also backs up the authority that the Istari could command. Now they can't dominate over anyone, and they can't force anything. But, it was their mission to unite those who would combat Sauron, which implies they would have an authoritative sort of role. They themselves would not be able to lead directly against Sauron, or challenge him. However, if they wanted to complete their task they would have to take up an authoritative role, in order to unite the Free Peoples against Sauron.

Let's look at Theoden who accepts Gandalf as his "new counselor" after Grima, I would say a "counselor" is a title that holds certain authorities:

"Nonetheless I miss now both my counsellors, the old and the new. But in this need we have no better choice than to go on, as Gandalf said, to Helm's Deep, whether Erkenbrand be there or no..."~Helm's Deep

And this is how Gandalf often acted, as a guide, counselor, advisor. He couldn't dominate and force anyone against their will, as that would go against his "task." But he could instruct and guide, and "Counselors" have authoritative power. Eventhough if they aren't the one's to make the decisions, they can influence and in Theoden's case he takes Gandalf's advice. With Denethor, he doesn't, and Gandalf is forbidden to force Denethor against his will.

For sure, Cirdan certainly knew who Gandalf really was:

For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.
"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy, but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle the hearts in a world that grows chill..."~Appendix B: The Third Age

Also, notice Cirdan called Gandalf "master," displaying more authority that the Istari had.

I agree with narfforc, whether Gandalf referred to himself as steward once or thousands of times. He called himself a steward, and even further explained what his job was. And those who knew who the Istari were accepted their authority (as shown with Cirdan). As well as in Theoden's case who takes Gandalf as his counselor (even though if Theoden probably didn't know of Gandalf coming over from the West as messengers).

And with Faramir:

"Gandalf!" said Frodo. "I thought it was he. Gandalf the Grey, dearest of counsellors. Leader of our Company. He was lost in Moria."
"Mithrandir was lost!" said Faramir. "An evil fate seems to have pursued the fellowship. It is hard indeed to believe that one of so great wisdom and of power - for many wonderful things he did among us - could perish and so much lore be taken from the world..."~The Window on the West

We seem to have several people around Middle-earth who have accepted Gandalf. Whether if it was like Cirdan who actually knew who he was and why he was there, or Theoden, Faramir, Aragorn, and many others who accepted his counsel and leadership, but didn't know.

The other istari abandoned their tasks, or turned away. But, in Gandalf's case he was well known in Middle-earth, and known by many names, and known for many deeds. Which, I think shows he commanded a certain authority when he was around as those willing saw him as a friend and took his advice.

I hope this isn't too hard to follow, I jumped around a lot, I think and just jumbled everything.

[davem]

'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. ... So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me. 'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Clearly Denethor recognises that Gandalf has both power & authority. He probably also acknowledges that he is a 'steward'. The point is they wanted different things. Denethor wanted things to remain as they had always been during his lifetime. Gandalf wanted to reinstate the kingship of Gondor under Aragorn. Denethor refused to acknowledge Aragorn's right to rule: 'I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

What he's saying is that he doesn't care if Aragorn is the Heir of Isildur, - he will not accept Aragorn's rule. So when Gandalf tells him ''To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or in honour,' it is obvious they are at cross purposes. Gandalf's position is that Denethor's duty is to surrender his rule because the true king has returned, Denethor's is that the true king has not returned, as the 'true' king would be the heir of Anarion, not of Isildur. Denethor could not accept Aragorn as king so he could not surrender his office to him because that would (in his mind) be a betrayal of his duty, which is to rule Gondor till the 'true' king returns.

[Boromir88]

Some other things that I noticed is, at least at first Saruman probably held more "authority" than Gandalf did...

"The Council of the Wise" being also called the "White Council," because Saruman was the leader. I don't think it's fully known who makes up this Council, but we know Saruman, Gandalf, and Galadriel are definitely in it, for Galadriel wanted to place Gandalf as the "leader." So, this brings to the point that based on this quote:

It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him.

Many understood why the Istari were there. Perhaps they did not know their identity, or knew if they were Maiar. But, they did understand that these men came from the West and were "messengers." And they were sent to Middle-earth for a purpose, or the "Wise" of Middle-earth, would not put them in such high positions and make them leaders:

TA 2851: The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him...

TA 2941: ...The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River.

These two dates show the authority that Saruman possesses when it comes to the Council. So, whether or not people knew who exactly these Istari were. I think it was understood that they were sent to help combat Sauron, and which is why they are placed into positions of leadership.

We also get an interesting note on the two blue wizards (who are called Morinehtar and Romestamo in this instance):

The ’other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West.~HoME VIII: The Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings (The Blue Wizards)

It seems to be understood that the Istari were sent to aid in fighting Sauron, whether or not it was understood who exactly these "Old men" were.

This suggests that Denethor was aware of the nature of Gandalf's mision (and that of the other Istari) as emissaries of the Valar (and, ultimately, Eru). Is there anything else to suggest that this may have been the case? I was rather under the impression that only a select few (essentially, the White Council and, possibly, Sauron) were aware of this.~Sauce

I don't think it was a secret as to where these Istari came from (generally understood as they were not from Middle-earth), or their "mission," as I have shown. Now whether a majority knew it or not, I don't know, but Gandalf was not shy about professing being emissaries from the "higher authorities":

"I am a servant of the secret fire..."~The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And Gandalf also gives a detailed account of his meeting with Saruman to the Council of Elrond which includes exactly what Saruman felt like their mission was. Plus there's the instance we are given with Denethor, as narfforc shows.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't think it was a secret as to where these Istari came from (generally understood as they were not from Middle-earth), or their "mission," as I have shown. Now whether a majority knew it or not, I don't know, but Gandalf was not shy about professing being emissaries from the "higher authorities" ...

But how many people knew exactly what there was to the West and that the Istari came from there? When I first read LotR, I had no conception of the Valar or Valinor or Eru or the like and, being a reader, I was privy to the key moments of the time. The vast majority of people in Middle-earth had no such privilege .

The Dunedain and Gondorians would have some conception, though lore and habitual rites (Farmair and his men nodding to the West). Frodo resorts to calling on Elbereth, but he was a learned Hobbit and I doubt even he (at the beginning) had much conception of who (or what) she was. Your average Hobbit wouldn't have a clue, and knowledge would be pretty patchy elsewhere in Middle-earth too, amongst the race of Men at least. Most Elves would know of the West since either they or their close relatives had been there. But that might not be so true of the Avari. Dwarves would have some knowledge too but, as with Gondorians, that would likely be from ancient law and habitual rites.

So knowledge that there was a place called Valinor and that there were Valar would surely be sketchy at best among the vast majority of folk in Middle-earth. Add to that the fact that few would trouble themselves to think who Gandalf and the other Istari actually might be (again, I knew nothing of Istari when I first read the book). As far as they were concerned, his status as a Wizard was probably sufficient.

The quote that you give from Appendix talks of the tales that were told after the event, when legends would have grown up surrounding the events that took place during the War of the Ring. But it tells us nothing about the state of knowledge at the time.

Gandalf's words on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum were witnessed only by the Fellowship, and most would probably not have known what exactly they meant. They have, after all, sparked heated debates as to their meaning here on the Downs.

The only people that we can say for sure knew of the Istari, from whence they came and the nature of their mission were the Council of the Wise, which probaly (in addition to Galadriel and the Istari themselves) included Elrond, Cirdan, Celeborn and, possibly, Thranduil. Others, such as Aragorn, who lived in or frequented Rivendell would have probably been aware and narfforc has a fair point when he says that others, such as Denethor and (possibly) Faramir, would, through their knowledge of lore or otherwise, have been able to make an educated guess. But the majority (including those such as Thedoen and Eomer, I would say) would have been "in the dark".

[Raynor]

I too doubt that the vast majority of Men knew who Gandalf really was - they believed he was an elf:

Originally Posted by The Istari, Unfinished Tales

Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, "the Elf of the Wand". For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.
...
It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspa) used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men associated with them, since his alliance and friendship wit Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed to "the North" in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name but one made up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues.

[narfforc]

He was called Gandalf by the Men of the North, but that means all other men were not fooled into thinking him of Elven-kind, for he had many names and none of the others hinted at him being an elf. The oldest elf in Middle-earth was probably Cirdan, who was on the westward journey to Aman. Very few men went to the Grey Havens, most of mankinds dealings (in the Third Age) if any were with The Fair Folk of Rivendell and Lothlorien, where else in Tolkiens writings is there an elf that looks like one of the Istari, maybe it is only the simple men of the north who mistake Gandalf's magic as Elvish, in the same way that Pippin asks whether their cloaks are magic and the elven reply was: I do not know what you mean by that. I cannot see Aragorn and The Dunedain who frequented Rivendell being unaware of the real Gandalf. Twice Gandalf reveals in front of others that he had returned from death, how many others had done so, this is no ordinary being.