If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[The Mouth of Sauron]

The fact that you felt you had to respond defensively highlights how touchy we all are about the subject - relax !

[Erendis]

I am perfectly relaxed.
I just don't want to leave any of my comments having a racistic implication.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Wasn't it Sam who said the Southerlings are black with white tongues or something like that?

Without being able to pinpoint the exact quote (and I've just checked about every entry for 'Swertings', 'Haradrim' and 'Southrons' in the LotR index), I think it actually says black with white teeth and red tongues - which could be seen as a racist caricature, if you're so inclined (although we all have red tongues and more or less white teeth - less in the case of die-hard smokers like yours truly).
Anyway, if anybody could be accused of racism on the basis of this quote, it would be Tolkien himself, not any of the posters on this thread; and as for him, I think he can be defended against this accusation (i.e. of racism in the sense of advocating supremacy of one race over another, which is not saying that racial stereotypes didn't occasionally occur in his thinking & writing) with good arguments, but this is not the thread to open that can of worms.
To get back on topic (well, sort offish), the very fact that Aragorn gave himself an Elvish name like Thorongil would be an indicator not only of Númenorean, but of Gondorian or Arnorian descent, - in my knowledge, no other Mannish people used the Elven tongues in naming; certainly not the Black Númenoreans, who, being descended from the King's Men, had abandoned the Elven languages for Adûnaic back before the Drowning.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

To get back on topic (well, sort offish), the very fact that Aragorn gave himself an Elvish name like Thorongil would be an indicator not only of Númenorean, but of Gondorian or Arnorian descent, - in my knowledge, no other Mannish people used the Elven tongues in naming; certainly not the Black Númenoreans, who, being descended from the King's Men, had abandoned the Elven languages for Adûnaic back before the Drowning.

Ah, but was Thorongil the name he gave himself, or a name that was applied to him by others?

In much that [Ecthelion] did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born.

ROTK Appendix A

That gives the impression he was given the name 'Thorongil' as a reflection of men's observations about him. They had to call him something, after all.

I don't recall any mention of whether he was called Thorongil in Rohan.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

( less in the case of die-hard smokers like yours truly).

I would call them almond-white. See?(and in real life,I cannot bear even the smell of smoke,just for trivia)

Getting back to the point,I agree with Inziladun.It also sounds quite strange to me for someone to five himself a name about his sharp gaze and silver jewel.An indication of vanity,which for certain Aragorn lacked of,considering his modest character,don't you think?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ah, but was Thorongil the name he gave himself, or a name that was applied to him by others?

ROTK Appendix A

That gives the impression he was given the name 'Thorongil' as a reflection of men's observations about him. They had to call him something, after all.

I don't recall any mention of whether he was called Thorongil in Rohan.

Perhaps not. An Elvish name wouldn't mean much up there. He must have given some name when he first showed up in Minas Tirith. Of course, perhaps he gave the name that he had acquired in Rohan. At first, people in Gondor probably just knew that he'd come from Rohan and acquired some fame in Thengel's service - presumably 'Thorongil' came with some sort of personal recommendation from Thengel himself (although that's obviously just speculation).

Evidently people in general in Gondor had no clue where Thorongil was from originally. But a learned fellow like Denethor, who had access to all the ancient scrolls, would have been far better informed. He would almost certainly have been at least somewhat familiar with the history of Arnor. He knew about Imladris and Elrond. When Faramir and Boromir came to Denethor many years later with their portentious dream about "The Sword That Was Broken", "Imladris" and "Isildur's Bane" it might not have come as a complete surprise to Denethor that Rivendell might have some connection to the Old North Kingdom. Certainly Denethor seemed aware of what "Isildur's Bane" was and had instructed Boromir to do what he could to bring it to Minas Tirith.

I wonder how much Sauron learned from Denethor regarding this matter? Sauron would have expected someone like Saruman or Denethor to try to sieze the Ring, but he seemed quite surprised when Aragorn revealed himself as the Heir of Isildur in the palantir. Apparently Denethor hadn't given away anything concerning his suspicions about Aragorn!

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I wonder how much Sauron learned from Denethor regarding this matter? Sauron would have expected someone like Saruman or Denethor to try to sieze the Ring, but he seemed quite surprised when Aragorn revealed himself as the Heir of Isildur in the palantir. Apparently Denethor hadn't given away anything concerning his suspicions about Aragorn!

Was he really surprised to learn there was still one heir of Isildur?Remember that his true identity was hidden from him at teh requrst of his mother.Isn't it an indication that Sauron suspected his existence and propably searced secretly for him?

I think Sauron's reaction was not that surprised as a result of fear-he had suspicions,but the relevance of true caught him unready.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Was he really surprised to learn there was still one heir of Isildur?Remember that his true identity was hidden from him at teh requrst of his mother.Isn't it an indication that Sauron suspected his existence and propably searced secretly for him?

I think Sauron's reaction was not that surprised as a result of fear-he had suspicions,but the relevance of true caught him unready.

As I can remember, Sauron's identity was also hidden during the time of Aragorn's childhood.

By the way, as Gandalf believed there was a hope even for Gorlum, though just a little, I think there was even a better chance for Denethor to recover and accept reality after Sauron's end. No, he could hardly have bacome a friend of the king and was too old and weak to carry any service for Gondor, but there were things he could have taken into attention after his despair had withdrawn. First of all, Aragorn had been avoiding claming for power. Secondly, Boromir, while dying, named Aragorn his brother and asked to save Gondor. Thirdly, Aragorn saved Faramir. And finally, Aragorn saved Gondor and made an enormous contribution into the removal of Sauron. If Denethor had understood he was no more able to run the kingdom, then becoming a father of the prince of Ithilien would not have been a dishonour, taking into account that this was a monarchical title for his decendants, wuoldn't it?

[Faramir Jones]

Nice to see that I started an interesting, long discussion!

I was interested to see what Inziladun said here:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What would Aragorn's response to Denethor pressing him on that have been? Perhaps something like 'The time was not yet right, Lord
Steward. I myself was not ready for the burden, nor had I yet earned it'. I suspect though, that no fair words or deeds on Aragorn's part would have reconciled Denethor to the idea of relinquishing his power and watching Aragorn
rule.

Aragorn, as Thorongil, sent a message to Ecthelion II when he left Gondor, after defeating the Corsairs of Umbar:

'Other tasks now call me, lord, and much time and many perils must pass, ere I come again to Gondor, if that be my fate.'

The big problem would be why he didn't stay to help Gondor, which was getting near its time of greatest need. Yes, Aragorn did return, but at a particular time that happened, by a remarkable coincidence, to be one most favourable to him claiming the kingship. You can see why Denethor was suspicious that Aragorn and Gandalf were plotting to put the latter on the throne of Gondor.

Also, Denethor's distrust of any other peoples, apart from his allies of Rohan, was based on a very good reason. What proper help had any of those other peoples given Gondor in the last number of centuries? Even if they couldn't give much military assistance, intelligence reports would have been useful.

There's also the fact that Elrond, when calling his council to decide on the fate of the Ring, made no effort to contact Denethor to send an envoy. (I know there was a vision that prompted Boromir to volunteer to go to Rivendell; but Elrond wasn't aware of that.) Surely the ruler of the main state opposed to Sauron was someone who should have been consulted?

It's been pointed out, including by Formendacil, that Denethor despised Aragorn II's claim, calling him 'the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity'. While this was probably his true feeling, not just the product of his madness, I believe that this was probably shared by many Gondorians for generations.

As we know, Elendil ruled Arnor, with his sons Isildur and Anárion ruling Gondor, but accepting their father as overlord. With Anárion's death in the War of the Last Alliance, Isildur went north to take up the rule of Arnor, with his three eldest sons, and gave Gondor to be ruled by his nephew Meneldil, Anárion's son, the last of those born in Númenor before the Downfall to survive that event.

When Isildur and his three eldest sons went north, they and their army were attacked and killed by orcs in the Battle of the Gladden Fields in 2 Third Age. The only survivor of that branch of the family was Isildur's youngest son, Valandil, who had been born in Rivendell. Due to his youth, his mother acting as regent for eight years, he made no attempt to assert overlordship over Gondor. One can presume that Meneldil would not have accepted overlordship from a younger cousin who had succeeded in such circumstances.

While Gondor flourished for centuries, Arnor diminished. In 861 T.A., after the death of King Eärendur of Arnor, the kingdom was divided among his three sons. While the line of Valandil survived in the Kings of Arthedain, who later claimed lordship over all Arnor, Arthedain was conquered by Angmar in the reign of Arvedui, though something was retrieved with help sent from Gondor.

Arvedui had married Fíriel, daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor; and he made a claim to the throne of Gondor in 1944 T.A., after Ondoher and his sons died in battle with the Wainriders. The claim was in his own right as a descendant of Isildur, and in right of his wife, as last child of Ondoher. But the Council of Gondor refused this claim, saying that the succession was restricted to male, male-line descendants of Meneldil son of Anárion, instead offering the throne to Eärnil, a victorious general who had the appropriate line of descent.

It appears that they also did so on the grounds that the monarchs of Isildur's line were a line of losers, who had proved themselves incapable of holding on to their kingdom. The personal dislike of Meneldil to accept his cousin's overlordship had become a matter of policy.

This was also shown later, after Eärnur, the last King of Gondor, was captured, and the throne left vacant. There was no one of the line of Anárion who had an undisputed claim; so it was decided to let the Stewards rule Gondor as hereditary regents, which they did down to Faramir. It is interesting that there was no move to locate any descendants of Isildur, now reduced to being Chieftains of the Dúnedain. Perhaps it was Gondorian prejudice against a group of people, all of whom seemed to have done nothing except to reproduce and hold on to some family heirlooms, and who had not shown any ability to properly rule a kingdom.

Aragorn II was well aware of this, and knew that while his lineage made him a viable candidate for the throne of Gondor, he would not be a serious candidate unless he proved himself, such as through a tremendous military victory over Gondor's enemies, as Eärnil II had done.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Nice to see that I started an interesting, long discussion!

I was just thinking the same thing myself - well done!

It's been pointed out, including by Formendacil, that Denethor despised Aragorn II's claim, calling him 'the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity'. While this was probably his true feeling, not just the product of his madness, I believe that this was probably shared by many Gondorians for generations.

One reason why I was initially pessimistic about Denethor's prospects once Aragorn pushed for the kingship was Denethor's madness. The guy is seriously depressed and just isn't seeing things clearly.

Sure, after the defeat of Sauron he might see the error of his ways - but there is another possibility:

Perhaps Aragorn can heal Denethor's madness.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Perhaps Aragorn can heal Denethor's madness.

Possibly, though I think it would have been Aragorn's biggest test since Frodo's knife-wound by the Witch-king.
The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance. After all, that would have put Denethor in Aragorn's debt, wouldn't it? And I really doubt that's a position that would have been acceptable to Denethor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There's also the fact that Elrond, when calling his council to decide on the fate of the Ring, made no effort to contact Denethor to send an envoy. (I know there was a vision that prompted Boromir to volunteer to go to Rivendell; but Elrond wasn't aware of that.) Surely the ruler of the main state opposed to Sauron was someone who should have been consulted?

If I may quibble here, a bit, Elrond didn't so much "call" a council as people just showed up. At least, such was the case with the representatives of the Dwarves and Mirkwood. Glóin was sent to find out what to do about Bilbo and Moria... and Legolas was sent to report Gollum missing. At least Gondor had a representative, by happenstance--of all the places you'd think Elrond would have called on, Lórien should have headed the list, but no one from there--Círdan was represented, but--here too, it's a coincidence:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

... and with him was Galdor, an Elf from the Grey Havens who had come on an errand from Círdan the Shipwright.

My point, I guess, is that one can't really read anything into who was represented at the Council of Elrond--at least not from the intentions of Elrond. Eru, maybe...

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance. After all, that would have put Denethor in Aragorn's debt, wouldn't it? And I really doubt that's a position that would have been acceptable to Denethor.

Moreover, for Denethor to do that, he would first have to acknowledge his need for healing, i.e. recognize his condition as madness - which is something mentally deranged people are rarely able to.
But supposing for argument's sake Aragorn got a chance, how would such a healing have to be accomplished? Some fragrance of athelas and laying on of hands wouldn't be sufficient in Denethor's case, I'm afraid. As I see it, the core of his problem was that he felt he had failed in his duty both as a father and as a steward - his sons were one dead one dying, and his city was about to be taken by the enemy. Being the person Tolkien described him to be, as exemplified by his view of himself as the main opponent of Sauron, he naturally took the blame for these desasters on himself (where part of it belonged, but by far not all); for Denethor, to say "The West has failed" was more or less synonymous with "I have failed (and all I've ever stood for)" - and he couldn't (or wouldn't, which is the same in other words) go on living with the knowledge of this failure. It wouldn't do to tell him "Well yes, you failed, but it's OK." He would have to be convinced that he hadn't actually failed - that, like Frodo on Mount Doom, he had endured to the limits of his ability and couldn't be blamed for breaking down under stress too great for him; which means he for his part would have to acknowledge both having limits in the first place, and that the situation had gone beyond his limits, without feeling intolerable shame. I have a hard time picturing Denethor being able to adjust his self-image like that.

Great topic indeed, Faramir! When I first saw it, I thought it was a classical case of what I like to call IMGH4WSBAO (If My Granny Had 4 Wheels She'd Be An Omnibus), but if you think about it, it's a good opportunity to delve a little into Denethor's character - one of the more complex in LotR, and too often misrepresented *coughPJ'smoviescough*.

[Faramir Jones]

I'm glad that you like the topic, Pitchwife!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Great topic indeed, Faramir! When I first saw it, I thought it was a classical case of what I like to call IMGH4WSBAO (If My Granny Had 4 Wheels She'd Be An Omnibus), but if you think about it, it's a good opportunity to delve a little into Denethor's character - one of the more complex in LotR, and too often misrepresented *coughPJ'smoviescough*.

Mentioning that film's portrayal of Denethor brought back some very bad memories! It was even worse than Jackson's earlier portrayal of Faramir!

[Faramir Jones]

Fellow fans and Downers might like to know, that Denethor was originally not going to be as harsh with Faramir for letting Frodo and Sam go on to Mordor with the Ring, as was portrayed in LotR. According to an earlier draft of the chapter 'The Siege of Gondor', this was what he said in response to Faramir's question, 'Do you wish then that our places had been exchanged?':

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'Or no.' And then he shook his head, and rising swiftly he laid his hand upon his son's bowed head. 'Do not judge me harshly, my son,' he said quietly, 'or believe me more harsh than I am. I know your brother well also. Love is not blind. I could wish that Boromir had been at Henneth Annûn when this thing came there, only if I had been sure of one thing.'

'Sure of what, my father?'

'That he was as strong in heart and selfless as you, my son. That taking this thing he would have brought it here and surrendered it, and not fallen swiftly under its thraldom. For, Faramir - and you too Míthrandir, amid all your wide webs and policies - there is a third way, that is neither the folly of wizards nor the lust of warriors....' (The History of Middle-earth: VIII. The War of the Ring, p. 332.)

Tolkien then made this note to explain why this portrayal must be changed:

The early conversation of Faramir and his father and motives must be altered. Denethor must be harsh. He must say he did wish Boromir had been at Henneth Annûn - for he would have been loyal to his father and brought him the Ring. (Gandalf may correct this.) Faramir grieved but patient. Then Denethor must be all for holding Osgiliath 'like Boromir did', while Faramir (and Gandalf?) are against it, using the arguments previously given to Denethor. At length in submission, but proudly, to please his father and show him that not only Boromir was brave [he] accepts the command at Osgiliath. Men in the City do not like it.

This will not only be truer to previous situation, but will explain Denethor's breaking up when Faramir is brought back dying, as it seems.(Ibid., p. 333.)

[Sarumian]

Ok, let me make up something in

IMGH4WSBAO

style.

Would you like such an alternative script?

While saving Faramir, Gandalf sends Denethor into sleep and orders the guards to take both of them to the Houses Of Healing. There both are treated by Aragorn, who leaves before they become conscious. When Denethor wakes up the battle is well over, he learns the news and accepts the order to remain in the Houses till he is fine. He looks sad and tired, though he is glad to see Faramir alive.

He is also glad to learn about Faramir's love to Eowyn. He tells Faramir, he is no longer able to rule Gondor and if by a small chance the war is won he will resign. He wants to see his grandchildren though they are not going to rule the country. Nothing more is said about Aragorn and possible outcome of the war.

One of the warriors who have retaken Cair Andros returns to Gondor with some information. Denethor realises that the army should have reached Morannon about that time. He looks fine, so he is allowed out of the Houses of Healing. He comes to the White Tower and asks a guard to give him a key of the small room. Gandalf had forbidden anyone to enter it, but Gandalf is far away and Denethor is still a Steward; he receives the key and looks into the Palantir. He finds the army of the West at Morannon Gates, sees how the fight starts and then goes further into Modor and reaches Barad-dur. Sauron is eager to find out if the Ring is really with Aragorn, so he turns his attention to Palantir. Denethor doesn't answer but engages Sauron into some sort of mental duel, partly distracting him from both Frodo and the battle. When Frodo claims the Ring, Sauron abandons Denethor. The latter walks into the hall, holding the Palantir. In his chair Denethor watches the fall of Barad-dur and dies. Faramir and Eowyn find him dead with Plalantir still in his hands; the hands are burnt. Since then Palantir shows nothing but two old burnt hands...

Honestly, I started thinking of "healing" even before PrinceOfTheHalflings' post...

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The question there is whether Denethor would have allowed Aragorn the chance.

How true!
I can actually picture the scene:
Denethor wakes up in the Houses of Healing,Faramir,who was sitting next to him all these days stands up in joy,tells him something like"Father,blessed be the day the King came back to us!For by his hand was the shadow of the Enemy remooved from you."
Denethor stands up frustrated,paying no attention to Faramir.Just in time,Aragorn enters the room to see how fares the Steward.Denethorr turns to him,raises his finger and explodes"How dare you heal me without my permission,you last heir of lessen house!"

[Pitchwife]

Sarumian, my problem with your scenario is that I don't see Denethor's madness as some external 'shadow of the Enemy' (although Sauron certainly did much to fuel it) that could be removed the way Aragorn healed Faramir, Merry and Éowyn, but as an affliction of the soul that had its roots in who he was or believed himself to be. For that to be healed, he would have to be both conscious and consenting. (Éowyn is a good parallel - Aragorn could heal her arm, but not the despair that had driven her to seek death on the Pelennor in the first place; the latter could only be healed by Faramir's love and a change of mind in Éowyn herself.)
What I like about your script is that it gives Denethor a chance to achieve something important and die an honourable death (what does he die from, though? Exhaustion from the mental and spiritual exertion of his duel with Sauron, probably); also that you reach the same final outcome by a different road - he still dies, and the palantír still shows his burned hands. Nice!

Why Denethor had to be made harsher - I think it's probably got to do with Tolkien deliberately setting up Denethor and Théoden as contrasting ruler figures. I can't quite remember where I've seen this observation elaborated (maybe Shippey maybe somewhere else), but it's given in nuce in Gandalf's words to Pippin immediately before they meet the Steward:

Théoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king.

Maybe the Prof felt making Denethor too understanding towards Faramir, and thus having the reader sympathize with him more, would weaken the contrast?
Another aspect of the Théoden/Denethor-contrast: the 'carreers' of both characters, from the scenes where we first meet them to their deaths, in a way mirror each other. Théoden begins with his spirit paralyzed by Wormtongue's manipulation, but with Gandalf's help he regains his energy, overcomes his enemies and dies as a victorious hero; whereas Denethor begins in full possession of his willpower and mental faculties, but is gradually eroded by both Sauron's manipulations via the palantír and the outcome of his own decisions until he succumbs and takes his own life in despair. Having him survive and be healed would, of course, utterly spoil this elegant symmetry.

[Sarumian]

Pitchwife,

the main problem with my scenario is that I am not Tolkien Thank you for interesting response; of course I was just kidding.

I really like this idea of symmetry in two powerful men lifespan. I would just add that Theoden (when he was sane) was completely attached to his people, whereas Denethor is clearly remote. I can suppose that for Tolkien this could have been a borderline between a proper monarchy and tyranny.

However, I'd like to draw your attention to two forces that could, in my opinion have influenced Denethor's view on things in a positive way had he survived the siege. Firstly, it is his fatherly feelings. Secondly it's his perpetual bid for honour. I wouldn't say he was an ordinary power freak; what was his fetish was rather matter of STATUS. But he wouldn't have admitted this, so he devoted himself to guarding his HONOUR instead. The fact that during the siege he was not helpful at all would have been a great shame and if a bit of common sense had remined in Denethor he would have realised that resigning is the only way to save some honour in this situation. This thought would either have driven him completely mad or would have made him to start coping with reality. At the same time the return of the king could have appear a much better formal reason to resign than just to leave power to the son, for it shifts the attention from previous failures to current needs. I can imagine Denethor half-heartedly agreeing to hand the power over "in order to avoid another kin strifee", following the common wish for Aragorn to rule Gondor. Then he could either have made another attempt to die for Gondor in some more sensible way or have enjoyed the status of a father of a gondorian Prince.

PS. I can actually find some correspondence with Theoden's destiny even in my "scenario", where Denethor also dies fulfilling his errand, but unlike Theoden who dies with his people, Denehor does it in solitude, making his fight his own way.

[Rumil]

Nice thread, Just a quick point to throw into the mix,

Gandalf plainly foresaw what Denethor's fate 'should have been' had he not committed suicide-

Whereas your part is to go out to the battle of your City, where maybe death awaits you. This you know in your heart.

I think though that this makes too 'neat' a coincidence, two old leaders; Theoden and Denethor, both depressed by works of the enemy, both healed by Gandalf, both die heroically at the Pelennor.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I agree that the notion of Elrond not summoning Denethor or one of his representatives to Rivendell for the Council of Elrond doesn't make sense.

By the same token, surely the White Council would have been more effective if it had included not only the Eldar and Saruman and Gandalf but also representatives of all the other potential enemies of Sauron, like Gondor, Rohan, Thranduil, Dwarves, Beornings and Men of the Vale of Anduin ?

[Erendis]

As Formendacil mentionned before,there was no real summon for the Council of Elrond.It could be better called a string of coincidences that drove the participants there-by the way,Formendacil,nice comment about Eru's interference,which if seen bearing in mind that Eru and Mangwe have not forgotten Midddle-Earth,it will end to another 4 at least pages of comments-.

As for the effeciency of the White Council,the first question is whether the rest had any knoeldge of Necromanter existence.And even if they had,with all the respect to the other tribes of Middle-Earth and without underestimating their courage,what could they possibly do for help?Of cource the answer here would be "They didn't know about the Ring too.As for the help,the same was thought for Hobbits and see what they have accomplised in the end".However,in the case of the Necromanter there was no almost impossible solution,like casting the Ring into Udun.In fact,they weren't certain of his identity yet.So,supposing that there were Humans and Dwarves etc in the Council,they wouldn't have been asked to go in Dol Guldur having no clue of what they were to face,like Gandalf did,but might have given just an oppinion,which wouldn't have changed the final decision.And when the Council got him out of there,it used its strength to do it,which means magic and possibly the Three.Were there such forces available elsewhere?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

of course I was just kidding.

I had a hunch you might be. Still, nice attempt to retrofit wheels to the Lord of Gondor!
I think you're spot on about Denethor's character and the question of status and honour (see his attitude towards 'Lesser Men' and his touchiness on the thinning of Númenorean blood). His position as the shield of the West against Mordor had become so important to him that in the end, he seems to have regarded the whole War of the Ring as a personal pee-contest between himself and Sauron, the lord of the Dark Tower and the lord of the White. If he'd been able to accept that he was just one figure among many others in the great struggle (an important one, no doubt, but not crucial), a servant of a greater cause that could still prevail even if he himself failed, he could have forgiven himself and survive. Gandalf, I think, tried to teach him this lesson in his wonderful "I also am a steward" speech, but Denethor's ears were stopped.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gandalf, I think, tried to teach him this lesson in his wonderful "I also am a steward" speech, but Denethor's ears were stopped.

It is among the greatest moments of Gandalf in the entire trilogy,a part that shows how deeple hummble he is and gives a very nice lesson to everyone concerning our points towards life.

As for Denethor,although it was sad to see a man with such potential ending up like that due to his pride and narrowmindness,I have to admitt that I was not really bothered to see him dying,for by his actions,self-destruction seems inevitable. He had been given many chances,being favoured from Luck from his very birth,and still he messsed up all in the end because he did not accept to listen for once somebody else's advice.Unlike his "rival",who payed attention to councilors even when he became king by his own effort and could have overestimated himself and his position in the world.

In fact,don't you think Denethor and Aragorn make a symmetric couple?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Erendis

In fact,don't you think Denethor and Aragorn make a symmetric couple?

As far as comparison goes, I would say that Theoden could be compared to Tuor (with a different ending) and Denethor to Túrin, only of course both are on a smaller, less dramatic (and tragic in Denethor's case) scale. However, they both get a message/guidance from the West (whether direct or indirect) and both react to it in different ways.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

His position as the shield of the West against Mordor had become so important to him that in the end, he seems to have regarded the whole War of the Ring as a personal pee-contest between himself and Sauron, the lord of the Dark Tower and the lord of the White. If he'd been able to accept that he was just one figure among many others in the great struggle (an important one, no doubt, but not crucial), a servant of a greater cause that could still prevail even if he himself failed, he could have forgiven himself and survive.

Interesting way to characterise Denethor's perception of his struggle with Mordor. Did Sauron actually...void himself? Never mind. I don't want to know.
The Professor said, I think in one of the Letters, that Denethor had become too 'political'. He was opposed to Sauron not in a right / wrong or black / white way, but merely because Mordor stood in opposition to the state he served, Gondor. Denethor as a politician was not up to the strain of the War: lacking a moral imperative to resist Sauron, his unwillingness to listen to counsel, and his readiness to kill himself and leave his people leaderless in their darkest times seem to me even more explicable.

[Faramir Jones]

Some interesting points here, Inziladun!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Interesting way to characterise Denethor's perception of his struggle with Mordor. Did Sauron actually...void himself? Never mind. I don't want to know.
The Professor said, I think in one of the Letters, that Denethor had become too 'political'. He was opposed to Sauron not in a right / wrong or black / white way, but merely because Mordor stood in opposition to the state he served, Gondor. Denethor as a politician was not up to the strain of the War: lacking a moral imperative to resist Sauron, his unwillingness to listen to counsel, and his readiness to kill himself and leave his people leaderless in their darkest times seem to me even more explicable.

I was discussing with a friend whether Gondorian soldiers shouted abuse at the Witch-king and the rest of the Ringwraiths, asking when they were last sexually active. Also, whether they asked if Sauron had sexual organs and if he ever used them or if they were just there for decoration.

She made an excellent point that such things would probably not have happened; because Sauron was not the equivalent of Der Führer Adolf Hitler or German Emperor William II, but of Satan. She reminded me of the phrase 'Speak of the devil', which was derived from the medieval phrase 'Speak of the Devil and he doth appear'.

This was a prohibition against speaking directly about Satan or about evil in general. If one did, Satan might actually appear, with very serious consequences for the person who spoke his name. Certainly, Sauron was spoken of indirectly by Gondorians; and even Mordor was also referred to by euphemisms, such as 'Nameless Land' and 'yonder realm'.

To be fair about Denethor, he did have a moral imperative to resist Sauron: the fact that he was the ruler of Gondor and therefore had an obligation to defend his kingdom and his people. Tolkien talks a little about this in his essay on the Stones in Unfinished Tales:

He [Denethor] was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. (Unfinished Tales, p. 408)

Previously, Tolkien pointed out that the effects on Saruman and Denethor of them using the Stones were different:

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it, Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. (Ibid.)

That said, I agree that Denethor's refusal to continue to fight Sauron even if he so despaired - something which Boromir, for all his faults, would have done - in favour of killing himself, and his attempted murder of Faramir, was inexcusable and a gross breach of his duty as a ruler.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

That said, I agree that Denethor's refusal to continue to fight Sauron even if he so despaired - something which Boromir, for all his faults, would have done - in favor of killing himself, and his attempted murder of Faramir, was inexcusable and a gross breach of his duty as a ruler.

Oh, he had a good excuse - he went mad.

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor. He also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt. Finally, had he been morally indifferent, Denethor would definitely have fallen like Saurian.

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power of the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor.

Do you think Denethor would not have fallen, if the Ring had been in his grasp? It was his son Faramir's for the taking, if he'd wanted it. Even knowing the dire situation of Gondor, Faramir refused the Ring. Denethor would have readily claimed it, with full knowledge that it was a product of Sauron's craft, just as Boromir would have done. How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Farmir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

But the Númenóreans as a people were well conscious of their standing as the 'High Men' of Middle-earth. Faramir himself was not immune from it:

We...can scarce claim any longer the titile High. We are become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things.

The Two Towers The Window On the West

I can't ascribe Denethor's failings solely to class pride. Even as a child, Faramir had the wisdom to know Gandalf was someone to be trusted and listened to. Denethor was not welcoming to Gandalf, perhaps because 'Thorongil', who he'd seen as a rival, had advocated trust in Gandalf to his father, Ecthelion. Allowing perceived threats to one's power and prestige to colour one's views of a councillor seems a pretty political mindset to me.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Faramir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

One explanation for the difference between Faramir and his father, as well as his elder brother, can only be conjectured - Finduilas. We know too little about her to guess at her influence on her husband and sons, especially since she died while the latter were fairly young, but it is possible that Tolkien unconsciously thought of his own mother while writing about the characters. She died while he was young too, yet her influence on him was lasting and powerful. Tolkien once said that Faramir was the character closest to himself, so parallels, while speculative, are possible.

We know that Denethor changed in character after the death of his wife. It would be interesting to speculate on the course his life might have taken had she yet lived. Could there be parallels with Finwë/Míriel/Fëanor hidden in there?

[Faramir Jones]

Esty, I agree about the possibility of Faramir being particularly influenced by his mother, as Tolkien was by his, although Finduilas died when he was five, younger than Tolkien when his mother Mabel died, he being twelve at the time.

My view is that perhaps we also need to look at the posthumous influence of Faramir's mother on him via her family. Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth was his mother's brother, and the most prominent Gondorian after the Steward. Also, his mother and Imrahil had an elder sister, Ivriniel.

We know that Imrahil had four children, three sons and a daughter, the latter, Lothíriel, later marrying Éomer. So Faramir might have had a lot of influence from his mother's side of the family, to compensate him for the loss of his mother.

We should, of course, not leave out the possible influences of members of his father's family. Denethor, like Imrahil, was the youngest of three children, having two elder sisters. Did these paternal aunts have any influence on Faramir's upbringing?

Certainly it would have been interesting to have seen what might have happened had Finduilas not died when she did.

You wondered about possible parallels between Finwë/Míriel/Fëanor, which may be the case, although I believe that there are significant differences. Fëanor was an only and an incredibly gifted child of the marriage of Finwë and Míriel. After her death, he remarried Indis of the Vanyar, and had four children with her, two sons: Fingolfin and Finarfin, and two daughters: Findis and Irimë.

It appears that, due to the close relationship between Fëanor and his father, that he resented the latter's remarriage and his half-siblings, in particular his two half-brothers. Later, he accused Fingolfin of trying to alienate their father's affections, indeed once threatening him with violence. This sibling rivalry would, as we know, have bloody consequences.

By contrast, Denethor never remarried. There is no doubt that he loved Finduilas deeply, something we can presume his sons were well aware of. As Sarumian said, 'He [Denethor] also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt'. While I'm sure they, including Boromir, missed their mother, they grew up to be the men we meet in LofR.

Also, there is no trace of any sibling rivalry between Boromir and Faramir. While Tolkien called the former the 'bossy' elder brother, he did so in inverted commas. Perhaps this was a trace of their mother's influence, she telling Boromir (who was ten at her death) to take care of his younger brother. Faramir did not resent Boromir being the heir, and as we see, lamented his death.

[Faramir Jones]

I was interested in what you said here, Sarumian:

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Oh, he had a good excuse - he went mad.

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor. He also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt. Finally, had he been morally indifferent, Denethor would definitely have fallen like Saurian.

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

Yes, there is the probability that Denethor II was insane; but in the particular confusion of the siege of Minas Tirith, there was not the time to formally remove him as ruler and replace him with someone else, such as Imrahil.

I agree with you that Denethor II was respected by his people, including by his sons. While there was some grumbling at how he treated Faramir, Gondorians understood the situation, many having no doubt also lost loved ones in the War. I also agree that Denethor was successful as a father.

Tolkien made it clear, in his essay on the Stones in Unfinished Tales, which I quoted earlier, that the difference between Saruman falling under Sauron's influence and Denethor, while still opposing Sauron, falling into despair, was due to the latter being 'a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son'.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There is an aspect to Denethor's madness and Saruman's fall that I have often wondered about, something that Gandalf says to Pippin after they have started the ride to Minas Tirith:

"And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from [Sauron] and turn it where I would..."

Also of note, I think is Gandalf's slightly earlier remark concerning the palantir:

"But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses. Alas for Saruman! It was his downfall, as I now perceive. Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. Yet he must bear the blame. Fool! to keep it secret, for his own profit."

Given that Gandalf felt that pull after a very brief time in the vicinity of a palantir, and the fact that Saruman -- whose art was almost certainly much deeper than Denethor's -- was drawn into his own downfall via the palantir of Orthanc, how strongly did the palantir of Minas Tirith begin to pull at Denethor's mind, once Sauron started using the Ithil stone? I often think that it was only a matter of time before Denethor was pulled into a similar fate, one custom-made for his particular weak spots, simply because he lived so close to a thing that (for all I know) might have been whispering in his thoughts, both awake and asleep. Before he started using the palantir, Denethor appears to have been a good leader, even though his bearing could be rather arrogant at times. His Achilles heel, so to speak, seems to have been a combination of too much love for Gondor (to the point that the good of Gondor became more important to him than anything else) and the jealousy that arose from his rivalry with Thorongil/Aragorn. He had the right to use the palantir of Minas Tirith, and the wisdom to use it for the good of his country rather than his own profit, but he did not take into consideration the greater power of Sauron. Even as he attempted to use the stone to ferret out the possible weaknesses of his Enemy, Sauron was doing the same to him, without him apparently knowing it.

Was Denethor insane? Quite likely. But was his insanity the result of his pride? Perhaps in part, but certainly not in whole. Sauron manipulated what he saw to drive him to despair, and it was the ultimate despair of seeing his only remaining son on the brink of death while his city was under siege that pushed him over the edge, I think.

Just my two cents, as always.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Do you think Denethor would not have fallen, if the Ring had been in his grasp? It was his son Faramir's for the taking, if he'd wanted it. Even knowing the dire situation of Gondor, Faramir refused the Ring. Denethor would have readily claimed it, with full knowledge that it was a product of Sauron's craft, just as Boromir would have done.

I think, Denethor would have fallen, had he gained the Ring as it would have happened with everyone in Middle Earth save for Bombadil. Moreover, the Ring influenced Denethor even without being possessed.Those people in Middle Earth who wielded power, who were attached to power were in danger as soon as they were able to find out what the Ring was. Denethor believed that the prophesy required the Ring to be brought to Gondor. I think, he decided at that point that he was chosen to save Gondor and destroy Sauron via using the Ring. He lost all hope after the Ring had gone to Mordor.

How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Farmir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

There are good posts about that and I would just like to add that Denethor underestimated Faramir probably because of their likelihood. My understanding is that Denethor was never happy with himself and that was the root of his troubles. For this reason he could think that other people, including his own father, Ecthelion, were also excessively critical about him; the feeling that could make him opinionated and cold, which, in turn, is an obvious disadvantage for a leader. Thorongil's success made it all evident; on the other hand after his wife's death Denethor could have got a feeling of guilt and persistent depression. With all respect to his father Faramir could develop an understanding that even a person of highest status and authority could be wrong about some matters. That made Faramir look for external guidance, thus he started listening to Gandalf and became quite independent-minded (there could also be some influence from the other members of his family as Estelyn Telcontar and Faramir Jones explained above). To sum up, it looks as if Denethor's spiritual constitution, very fragile initially, made him seek support in such things as his status, blood, knowledge, duties etc. His moral consistency was based on external devices. Faramir respected those ideas as well, but his spirit was based on internal principles. If Denethor's too political attitude means this, I would agree. At the same time Denethor was able to withstand lots of troubles, remaining a person of honor, but when his devices broke down, his mind collapsed.

But the Númenóreans as a people were well conscious of their standing as the 'High Men' of Middle-earth. Faramir himself was not immune from it:

Quote:
We...can scarce claim any longer the titile High. We are become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things.

The Two Towers The Window On the West

I'd agree that Faramir was not immune of such consciousness, but the quote also shows him considering the idea of High Men as a question of attitude rather than 'blood'. He told Frodo there had been a shift in virtues, so even people of high blood, who had been the keepers of high Numenorean knowledge for ages, were no longer seeking for any other achievements but military success, having become similar to 'middle men'. It seems, Faramir and Denethor shared the view that being a High man didn't mean just the origin, but observing lore and fulfilling high duties; one who fails doing it lessens. But what Faramir had found out was that the course of thoughts and actions could make a lesser person (even a hobbit) 'high' – something Denethor would have never agree with. This can be an example of Faramir's independent mind while Denethor' moral integrity depended on some social concepts and prejudices.

I can't ascribe Denethor's failings solely to class pride. Even as a child, Faramir had the wisdom to know Gandalf was someone to be trusted and listened to. Denethor was not welcoming to Gandalf, perhaps because 'Thorongil', who he'd seen as a rival, had advocated trust in Gandalf to his father, Ecthelion. Allowing perceived threats to one's power and prestige to colour one's views of a councillor seems a pretty political mindset to me.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I was interested in what you said here,

Denethor, while still opposing Sauron, falling into despair, was due to the latter being 'a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son'.

Again, it was Denethor himself who, due to a matter of honor, sent his son on a suicidal mission with no military significance in that situation. The tragedy of Denethor was that as long as he followed his principles, he was inevitably drifting towards defeat.