“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

“Thee” and “thou” are virtually obsolete in modern English, and have been for well over a century at least. Therefore Tolkien’s use of this second person pronoun in several passages of his story is anachronistic and commanded my attention while reading. I asked myself: Why did he choose it, who said it, and what significance does it have?

On this international forum, a word of explanation may be needed. Native speakers of English and some other languages have only one second person pronoun to use when addressing others: in English, “you”. Other languages, such as German and French, have two different pronouns, one for formal usage, the other for informal, familiar usage. The formal pronoun is used for strangers, elders, and persons of respect. The familiar pronoun is used for family, equals, children, and as a sign of disrespect.

If we encounter “thee”, “thou”, “thy”, “thine” etc. in English, it is only in old literature – spoken usage is, for all practical purposes, extinct. Most likely we hear it in Shakespeare’s plays or when the King James Bible is read. That’s why its connotation has changed – originally, “you” was the formal personal pronoun, and “thee” was familiar. To us nowadays, “thee” sounds antiquated and therefore formal, so it no longer carries the meaning it once had, of a close relationship between speaker and listener.

Three passages, all of them in RotK, have a particularly significant use of the pronoun. (There are a few other examples which we can discuss later on, if enough are interested.) The first one is found in “The Passing of the Grey Company”, in two conversations that take place between Éowyn and Aragorn before he takes the Paths of the Dead. At first, she uses the normal “you” as they speak of more general issues and of herself. But then, when she begs him not to go, she uses “thee”:

‘Neither have those others who go with thee. They go only because they would not be parted from thee – because they love thee.’

And on the next morning:

‘Aragorn, wilt thou go? ... Then wilt thou not let me ride with this company, as I have asked? ... I beg thee!’

Aragorn, however, does not use the familiar pronoun, but answers with “you”.

I get the feeling that Éowyn is so overcome by her love and concern for Aragorn that she perhaps inadvertantly uses the familiar pronoun. Her speech betrays the secret of her heart – unintentionally or in the only way she can find to let him know how she feels. This is the “Du”* of a lover, attempting to bridge the distance between herself and the one she loves.

How do you feel when you read this passage? Did you notice Éowyn’s choice of words, and what did you think about it? If you are not a native English speaker, does your translation of the book make this distinction? If so, how does it affect your perception of the passage?


(The other two passages will follow within the next day or two.)


*German familiar personal pronoun

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I get the feeling that Éowyn is so overcome by her love and concern for Aragorn that she perhaps inadvertantly uses the familiar pronoun. Her speech betrays the secret of her heart – unintentionally or in the only way she can find to let him know how she feels.

Estelyn, I think you're right about Eowyn's use of the familiar pronoun.

However, you're wrong about the demise of such things in the English language.
I live just a little to the north of Birmingham, where Tolkien grew up, and my local dialect is similar to the language of that area. In conversation between family and friends we still use familiar pronouns, though when I speak, "thee" sounds more like "thay" and "thine" comes out as "tharn".

The old forms are alive and well in the UK's regional dialects.
.

[Galadriel]

I do believe that our dear professor wanted his books to have an ancient feel (or sound!) to them. Personally, I would have liked his works less if he had not done it that way.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for the additional information, Selmo! I'd read that but never experienced it, which accounts for not really believing it, I guess.

Galadriel, I understand what you're saying, but my point was that the archaic form is not something that is used throughout the book, but just in such isolated cases that it makes me look twice.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I just looked at what Hammond and Scull have to say about this passage in their LotR Reader's Companion:

Originally Posted by Hammond and Scull

Éowyn began this conversation with Aragorn using formal you, your, but here pointedly changes to the intimate thee, expressing her feelings. When their conversation resumes the next day, she continues to use thee, thou, but Aragorn consistently addresses her with you, your, painfully polite.

I hadn't read that before posting my thoughts, so I'm delighted to hear that the experts agree with me!

[Galadriel55]

Nice find, Esty! Fut the "thee" that always brought my attention was this one:

Then Eowyn looked in the eyes of Aragorn, and she said: "Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!"
And he answered: "I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss."

Quite the reverse here! Eowyn is being formal, and Aragorn is showing that they are closer than she thinks.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, very nice find, Gal55! I hadn't realized that this passage rounds off the ones I quoted! I like that very much!

The Reader's Companion points to Kocher's Master of Middle-earth, Chapter "Aragorn":

It is symptomatic of his [Aragorn's] ease that he now dares use to her the familiar 'thee' with which she addressed him in her wooing but which he avoided in addressing her. Never has Tolkien looked into the human heart to better purpose than in this inset tale of Éowyn and Aragorn.

Now that Aragorn is (safely! ) married to Arwen, and no longer fears waking false hopes in Éowyn, (who is also now 'safely' in other hands) he comes full circle and shows that he cares deeply for her, though not as she formerly wished him to love her.

I do like this story of unrequited love.

[Inziladun]

If Éowyn's use of the archaic forms is due to an emotional outbreak, what does that say for some of the other uses?

There are many examples in Denethor's final speech to Gandalf:

'With the left hand thus wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool!'

And later with the Mouth of Sauron:

'Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance? But this time thous has stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs beneath the feet of Sauron the Great.

I'd always thought the use of the old forms by Denethor annd the Mouth to have been a result of the speakers' desire to lend their words extra authority at those moments.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Selmo

I live just a little to the north of Birmingham, where Tolkien grew up, and my local dialect is similar to the language of that area. In conversation between family and friends we still use familiar pronouns, though when I speak, "thee" sounds more like "thay" and "thine" comes out as "tharn".

That's interesting!

And I don't remember my German well enough at the moment: is it Sie (polite) along with Du familiar?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

And I don't remember my German well enough at the moment: is it Sie (polite) along with Du familiar?

With all the authority of my two years of high school German, I think that's correct.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Inzil, you've already pointed to the two other examples of the word usage that I would like to expand on! Good job on remembering them. Since the familiar form is used with a different purpose there, perhaps we should carry on with the discussion about Éowyn before talking about them.

Originally Posted by Galin

And I don't remember my German well enough at the moment: is it Sie (polite) along with Du familiar?

Yes - with all the authority of one who lives in Germany and has to cope with the correct usage of both forms on a daily basis!

[Galadriel55]

I'm no expert on this, but could there be a difference between "thee" and "thou"? Denethor, Eowyn, and Aragorn use "thee", and MOS says "thou". Perhaps "thou" has a different shade to it.

And I think Denethor is addressing Gandalf on familiar terms to do quite the opposite - show Galdalf that he doesn't have authority over the Stewart and can't boss him around. Or, that thy re more equal than (Denethor thinks) Gandalf thinks.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The difference between "thee" and "thou" is a matter of declension: "thou" is nominative, "thee" is objective, "thy" and "thine" are genitive, and "thine" is possessive. (The Wikipedia entry on "thou" has a good diagram explaining this, along with further information on grammar and etymology.)

Your thoughts on Denethor and Gandalf are going in the right direction - I'll be back with some quotes to explain later today, or tomorrow.

[Lhunardawen]

Esty, I believe we've had this discussion before (edit: well, maybe not at length, but we had touched on the subject) in the CbC for "The Passing of the Grey Company" (clickety click!). My, that was quite the exchange between Aragorn and Éowyn, wasn't it?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

You have a great memory, Lhuna! I enjoyed going back to the CbC discussion to which you linked! And I enjoyed seeing how you pointed out Aragorn's admirable qualities because of the way he handled the situation. (I think "swoon-worthy" was the technical term you used?! ) We did touch on the use of "thee/thou" briefly back then, but there were so many other aspects to the discussion that I didn't remember.

[Rumil]

Very interesting Esty,

I'd not clocked the significance in Aragorn/Eowyn exchanges.

As I remember it thee and thine etc are archaic, and therefore bring to mind legendary romances (Tristan and Isolde etc) but also archaic in that they bring to mind great leaders of old.

The major contrast here is between the hobbits' modern usage of you and yours and the 'heroic types' use of thee and thine. However the romantic use is a very telling sub-set of usage.

Also that the Fellowship are 'you and yours'-ers generally, perhaps tying in with (Denethor's?) comment that Pippin uses a strange idiom. Were the Fellowship (Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir) using the modern forms as a more every-day form of speech?

Also backing up Selmo in that Oop North number of these archaic forms are still part of regonal dialect.

[Formendacil]

If memory serves, Tolkien comments on his use of Thee/Thou/Thy/Thine in one of his letters, but (also if memory serves, or IMS) he doesn't speak of Aragorn and Éowyn; rather, he speaks of Faramir and Éowyn. For those who know to look for it, Éowyn's "defrost" becomes evident in the 2nd person pronouns she uses in addressing Faramir.

Denethor has also been brought up (his use of "thee" & co. to Gandalf is a clear sign that he considers Gandalf his inferior), and (again, IMS) I believe that Tolkien also mentions, in this or some other letter, that, among other things, he was using the archaic familiar form with the Gondorians to help establish a linguistic difference between Gondor and the Shire. He mentions that a big part of the reason people called Pippin "ernil i pherrianath (sic?) is because Pippin's Eriadoric Westron used only the familiar. Via the translator conceit into modern English, this doesn't play quite as well, since the surviving pronoun is the formal "you," but we can still get a hint of different "sound" of the two Westrons.

(As an aside, it is frustrating to try and say things with any certainty when one's copy of The Letters is a 1000 leagues distant.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Denethor has also been brought up (his use of "thee" & co. to Gandalf is a clear sign that he considers Gandalf his inferior), and (again, IMS) I believe that Tolkien also mentions, in this or some other letter, that, among other things, he was using the archaic familiar form with the Gondorians to help establish a linguistic difference between Gondor and the Shire. He mentions that a big part of the reason people called Pippin "ernil i pherrianath (sic?) is because Pippin's Eriadoric Westron used only the familiar. Via the translator conceit into modern English, this doesn't play quite as well, since the surviving pronoun is the formal "you," but we can still get a hint of different "sound" of the two Westrons.

That's actually from the ROTK Appendix F.

Tolkien notes there, that in comparison to Hobbits:

In Gondor and Rohan a more antique language was used, more formal and more terse.

So obviously Éowyn would have been familiar with the formal pronouns, probably more so since she was raised by Théoden, whose mother was from Lossarnach.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Formy, I was also looking for that reference in the Letters, and was finally pointed in the direction of Appendix F by Hammond and Scull. Inzil quotes the beginning of the pertinent passage, and Tolkien goes into more detail following that (Section II - On Translation). That's the really interesting bit for this discussion!

The Westron tongue made in the pronouns of the second person... a distinction... between 'familiar' and 'deferential' forms. It was, however, one of the peculiarities of Shire-usage that the deferential forms had gone out of colloquial use. ... This was one of the things referred to when people of Gondor spoke of the strangeness of Hobbit-speech. Peregrin Took, for instance, in his first few days in Minas Tirith used the familiar for people of all ranks, including the Lord Denethor himself. This may have amused the aged Steward, but it must have astonished his servants. No doubt this free use of the familiar forms helped to spread the popular rumour that Peregrin was a person of very high rank in his own country.

As to the usage of the different forms, Tolkien adds a footnote:

In one or two places an attempt has been made to hint at these distinctions by an inconsistent use of thou. Since this pronoun is now unusual and archaic it is employed mainly to represent the use of ceremonious language; but a change from you to thou, thee is sometimes meant to show, there being no other means of doing this, a significant change from the deferential, or between men and women normal, forms to the familiar.

That touches on Rumil's comment concerning the everyday speech amongst the members of the Fellowship. We don't read of switches back and forth from one to another, which would be more annoying than helpful in English literature*, but the change is noted only in very special cases.


*When romantic novels are translated from English to German, for example, the translator has to find a place to insert the switch from formal to familiar - when do the lovers stop saying "Sie" and start saying "Du"?!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original.

In modern Russian, the respectful/deferential "you" is "you" in plural... So, like vous in French. However, as far as we know, in archaic Russian, everyone was addressed with the singular "you", regardless of rank. Unless, of course, the speaker is referring to a group of people.

So, in my Russian translation, there is no change in the Aragorn-Eowyn speach.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Hi Esty!

I remember you mentioning how you considered starting a thread on this subject and I glad you did. Learning why Tolkien did this has given me a new and deeper understanding for these passages.

The passage you originally quoted, the exchange between Eowyn and Aragorn, did jump out to me when I first read it as an adult in English (in Swedish this particular significance it's probably lost in translation), mostly because I at the time had the notion that the "Thee" and the "Thou" etc were the formal personal pronouns, and that "You" was a familiar. But with this interpretation Eowyn's switch from one form to another didn't make much sense, which is why I took notice and was puzzled. Then I promptly forgot about it.

What you wrote in the op explains well why I had got this (obviously faulty) notion.

Originally Posted by Esty

To us nowadays, “thee” sounds antiquated and therefore formal, so it no longer carries the meaning it once had, of a close relationship between speaker and listener.

Also, in Swedish, a familiar term is "Du", which is translated to "You", and when I hear "You" in English I automatically think of the familiar "Du", not the formal "Ni", although the latter is also translated into "You". In addition, the formal personal pronouns have fallen out of use in Sweden. So when I see one antiquated term such as "Thee" I guess I associate it with another one, that is "Ni".

Denethor and the Mouth would use the familiar terms (sorry if this has been mentioned already) as a conscious insult when they speak to Gandalf. The proper way to address a person of high rank that you do not know intimately would be with formal personal pronouns, and by using the familiars instead, as you perhaps would to a servant, the Mouth and Denethor show how little they think of the Wizard.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Between this and your immediately prior post, Esty, I'm curious about the German (and other languages, for those Downers who can answer) translation in general: do the translators imitate the Appendix F note that Hobbits only use the familiar pronouns throughout the entirety of the whole? Or is there some considered nuance (for example, might Frodo use the formal pronouns when speaking to the Elves, while Sam might never think to use it... or, for another example, does the Master/Servant Frodo/Sam relationship demonstrate it)?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for your comments on the Swedish translation and your understanding of these passages, Skip! Apparently Sweden must be the Shire, since the formal pronoun has disappeared there too!

I quite agree with you that Denethor and the Mouth use the familiar form as an insult - I do look forward to discussing those passages! Coming soon to a thread near you...

Formy, I checked the German translation of Appendix F, Section II, and it is precisely the same as the original. No changes there. I'm not familiar with the whole of the translated book, but I did look to see if Sam used a deferential form when speaking to Frodo, and that is not the case. Apparently the translator paid attention to Tolkien's words, and all of the hobbits use the familiar form.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Several people have already posted about the other two incidents involving "thee" and "thou": Denethor's final conversation with Gandalf in "The Pyre of Denethor", and the Mouth of Sauron's words to Aragorn and Gandalf in "The Black Gate Opens". Since the usage of the familiar personal pronoun is similar in these two passages (and completely different from Éowyn's use), we can discuss them without pause.

One of the uses of the familiar personal pronoun is talking down to other persons. That takes place when non-family adults speak with children, for example, but also in less friendly situations like when some people speak down at foreigners as if they were not adults. And of course it also can take place when one person insults another and uses the familiar form - in German, for example, saying "Du Idiot!" to a stranger.

I find it very noteworthy that Denethor, who was always polite previously, turns insolent in regard to Gandalf at the end of his life. He rejects any kind of authority the wizard might have, and though he may not know precisely which nature Mithrandir has as a Maia, he must realize that the wizard is higher than himself. But he lashes out at him, "Since when has the Lord of Gondor been answerable to thee?" He accuses Gandalf of attempting to make him a tool for his own purposes. The Steward no longer wants to be under other authority and expresses that violently, using "thee" and "thou" to emphasize his point.

Christopher Tolkien speaks about this usage briefly in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle-earth and quotes his father:

Where thou, thee, thy appears it is used mainly to mark a use of the familiar form where that was not usual. For instance its use by Denethor in his last madness to Gandalf, and by the Messenger of Sauron, was in both cases intended to be contemptuous. But elsewhere it is ocasionally used to indicate a deliberate change to a form of affection or endearment.

The last sentence must refer to the Éowyn passage.

[Inziladun]

Quite right about Denethor and the Mouth.

Compare the Mouth's insolence when treating with Gandalf to the polite edginess with which the emissary from Mordor spoke with the Dwarves of Erebor, using "you", "your", and "yours". When feigning friendship, it wouldn't do to seem too condescending.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Oh, that's an excellent comparison, Inzil! That shows us readers that the use of the deferential or familiar personal pronouns has nothing to do with the writing style - there's definitely an agenda to it!

[The Might]

Form, I checked the letters, but couldn't find the reference you mentioned.

Looking at the Silmarillion it is interesting to note that "thee" and "thine" are mostly used by Eru and by the Valar. It makes sense since the Valar and Eru were close to one another.

Eru to Aule:

But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.

Aule to Eru:

Yet the making of thing is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father. But what shall I do now, so that thou be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made.

Mandos to Feanor:

But after that time this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed, if others will release thee.

Melkor to Ungoliant (perhaps also emotional? )

Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.'

Later:

'Thou hast had thy doe. For with my power that I put into thee thy work was accomplished. I need thee no more.

A messenger of Manwe to Feanor:

Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'

Ulmo to Turgon:

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.

Manwe to Melkor:

'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here do less than thou.'

The other two passages with extensive use are Gwindor to Turin as a friend and Glaurung to Turin in the way Denethor and Mouth of Sauron use it.


PS: Sorry, I just noticed the thread title says "in Lord of the Rings", I hope adding the Silm to the dicussion is ok.

[Galadriel55]

Wow, TM, that's a lot of quotes! I think that the Ainur and Eru use familiars becaue they are like one family, in a way...

Funnily enough, there were no "thous" and "thees" where I most expected them to be - in The Words of Hurin and Morgoth, COH. Even when the two throw insults at each other.

Fool, little among Men, and they are the least of all that speak! Have you seen the Valar, or measured the power of Manwe and Varda? ~Morgoth

This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth... ~Hurin

Maybe they both want to show that they wouldn't go so low as to show their scorn in such an ungallant way? And the same goes for Thingol, when he spoke to Beren.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't mind the additional discussion material at all, TM! Thanks for your research! I had originally limited mine to LotR, but your examples show the use of the familiar form in family-type circumstances - which has nothing to do with a simply archaic use of "thee" and "thou", as some might have expected in the Sil.

And you add more thought-provoking examples, Gal55 - I really enjoy having a discussion that expands the boundaries of my knowledge.

[Inziladun]

As for another LOTR occurrence of the "superior" speech, there are the Witch-king's words to Éowyn:

'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy thoughts shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!'

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

[The Might]

Actually Galadriel, he does in the Unfinished Tales:

She did not seek to comfort him any more than herself: for she met her grief in silence and coldness of heart. But Húrin mourned openly, and he took up his harp and would make a song of lamentation; but he could not, and he broke his harp, and going out he lifted up his hand towards the North, crying: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!"

Also, interesting to note that both Turin and Gurthang(!) use "thee" in their short dialogue:

"Hail Gurthang, iron of death, thou alone now remainest! But what lord or loy*alty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee? From no blood wilt thou shrink! Wilt thou take Túrin Turambar? Wilt thou slay me swiftly?"
And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by The Might

Actually Galadriel, he does in the Unfinished Tales

Ah, I didn't have the sense to look up that passage... It's in COH as well...

Originally Posted by Miggy

Also, interesting to note that both Turin and Gurthang(!) use "thee" in their short dialogue:

Very interesting, that. Does it show that Gurthang is closer to Turin than his friends and family? Or, maybe that they "shared their death" is what makes them close? So if all humans are equal on the day of their death, swords are equal too?... But it's a special sword, with a personality of it's own, so I guess it's almost human in nature.

Originally Posted by Zil

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

I think that it's a mixture of both. Or, maybe, his purpose was only to scare Gandalf, not to insult him - vainly, - as he knew it won't work on him. Eowyn is a different case altogether. The WK was offended and angered by her challenge. So insulting her would be a must.

[Mister Underhill]

Great thread, Esty, and great posts everybody. "Thee" as a familiar form is rattling around somewhere in my brain, but as an English-only speaker (alas), I guess the nuance of familiar versus formal forms never occurred to me while reading Tolkien. It's amazing how the prof can keep revealing new layers of nuance even after umpteen readings.

As I'm nearing the end of my first re-read of LotR in many a year, I'll throw in a couple more instances that are relatively fresh in my mind.

First, it seems that the familiar form is not completely forgotten in the Shire, as when Sam dredges his memory and comes up with the old troll tune, we find some examples:

Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!

The troll is likewise insultingly familiar in his response:

I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.

"Thee" also adds a layer of nuance (and an extra note of bittersweetness) to Treebeard's song, the call-and-response between the Ents and the Entwives, when it's introduced in the last stanzas.

And think how it must have warmed the cockles of Gimli's heart when he heard this message conveyed by Gandalf:

"To Gimli son of Glóin," she said, "give his Lady's greeting. Lock-bearer, wherever thou goest my thought goes with thee."

No wonder he capered!

[The Might]

By the way, perhaps interesting to note that - as expected - the Hobbit does not contain any form of "thee", "thou", "thy" or "thine" as Tolkien probably thought that children would have trouble understanding the language.

[The Might]

Also, letter #171 contains Tolkien's reply to someone criticizing his use of archaic English in TTT and describing this as "tushery". Worth reading his answer, well said, Professor!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for another LOTR occurrence of the "superior" speech, there are the Witch-king's words to Éowyn:

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

That's a fascinating comparison, Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.

More interesting references, TM! The second one interests me especially - when both "persons" involved use the familiar form, it indicates equality, even a sense of brotherhood. There seems to be a connection on a deeper level between Turin and the sword. G55, you raise some very good questions concerning that! The closeness and the shared death are thought-provoking aspects.

Underhill, it's always a pleasure to have lured you back into posting! I'm finding it a great pleasure to discover new layers of understanding even after all these years of studying and rereading Tolkien. And yes! The Troll poem! It's another example of a mutual use of the familiar form, so I'm not sure there's an insult involved. It seems to me that two opponents are mockingly recognizing their equality - neither actually wins the encounter.

I hadn't realized that "thee" etc. are used in the Ent and Entwife's song, but you have a point there - it does add to the sense of loss when there was that closeness before.

And yes!! Galadriel's message to Gimli!! I hadn't thought of that, and it does add a very special intimacy to her words. I must have a thing for the more unusual love stories in Tolkien's tales, as I love this one dearly. What a triumph for the Dwarf - I wonder if she has addressed any other character with the familiar pronoun?! That calls for some more research...

Good point about the Hobbit, TM! If the Dwarves also used the familiar pronoun amongst themselves and to Bilbo and Gandalf, there was no need for differentiation anyway. And I bet Smaug didn't bother to address Mr. Baggins formally! So we could imagine that the "you" throughout the book was probably actually a "thee". Thanks also for the reference to that letter, which is interesting to read, even though it doesn't directly touch on our subject.

Thanks for all the great contributions so far! I'm very much enjoying this discussion.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

That's a fascinating comparison, Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.

Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself. Note that, in his speech to Gandalf, he says "This is my Hour" but when he is talking to Eowyn he decied to do it in the third person removed. He says "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey" instead of "come not between me and my prey" "He will not slay", instead of "I will not slay". He makes an object lesson out of what should be a personal matter (Eowyn is keeping him from his kill, not every Nazgul from thier kill) Another point of "down talking" might be that "In thy turn" tag line. Given where she is standing, Eowyn's "turn" is as like as not next anyway, unless she decided to simply run away (Given the WK's nature, I can easily imagine that, had Eowyn betrayed her ideals and ran away in fear from the battle, The Nazgul might very well decided not to slay her at all, since the idea of her living her whole life in fear and disgrace would have probably amused him.) Adding on the "in thy turn" bit, in my opinion, that not only does he not feel any reservations about slaying her, but that she is of so little importance he does not even feel it neccecary to make any haste; she is such a little worm he can take his leisure.

[Faramir Jones]

The Might has already made reference to the above letter, part of which I think is well worth quoting. It's a letter written by Tolkien in about September 1955 but not sent, to Hugh Brogan, who criticised the archaisms in the LotR chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall', and agreed with a critic's description of it as 'tushery'. As has been pointed out, it's very relevant to this discussion; because in it Tolkien discusses his use of 'moderate or watered archaism', giving a particular passage in LotR, and showing what it would be like in a deliberatly archaic and then in modern English:

The proper use of 'tushery' is to apply it to the kind of bogus 'medieval' stuff which attempts (without knowledge) to give a supposed temporal colour with expletives, such as tush, pish, zounds, marry, and the like. But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. Of course, not being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works in the ancient and 'middle' idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that. But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii, 'The King of the Golden Hall'. 'Nay, Gandalf!' said the King. 'You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.'

This is a fair sample - moderate or watered archaism. Using only words that are still used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: 'Nay, thou (n')wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall...' etc. I know well enough what a modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties' - and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' - if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archism of expression on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used. Like some non-Christian making reference to some Christian belief which did not in fact move him at all. (Letters, Letter 171, pp. 225-6)

[Pitchwife]

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty? I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

The use of thou & thee in the Troll song seems to me more dialectal than insulting, in accordance with the poem's folk song character - especially when you hear Tolkien himself sing it (a good recording is here).

I just remembered a smashing occurrence of thee & thou in the Silmarillion which is missing in Miggy's list - Fëanor to Melkor:

"Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!"

Everything here is a calculated insult - the use of the familiar pronoun, the epithet reminding Melkor of the worst humiliation he had suffered until then, the final act of slamming the door "in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä". (Which, incidentally, makes this a great thing to say to bailiffs, Jehovah's Witnesses and other visiting nuisances.)

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.