Sauron and elf-letters - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Telchar · 12-23-2002, 04:21 AM

Gandalf about the inscription of the One Ring:

Quote:

‘No,’ said Gandalf, ‘but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here.

Legolas about the S-rune on the helm of the orcs fallen before Boromir near Parth Galen:

Quote:

'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'

So...?

Galorme · 12-23-2002, 05:16 AM

Lets look at the evidence: Gandalf is a Maia, recognised as being one of the wises beings on ME. Legolas was a young elf with only 5 facial expressions and a vocabulary of "ORC!" who was contradicted by the script on the ring. Who would you believe?

LePetitChoux · 12-23-2002, 08:17 AM

Well, Legolas was referring to elf-RUNES, while the inscription on the ring wasn't runes, but flowy letters (Very good vocabulary, I know). Also, Legolas said that Sauron doesn't USE them, but remember, the ring was made a long time ago, so he may have USED them before.

Galorme · 12-23-2002, 06:51 PM

I believe that the letters on the ring was Tengwar, or Feanor's Runes (still a form of runes). It depends on what you define as runes. You can say Runes being only Daeron's Runes, but then you have to problem that the Feanorion (sp?) Alphabet is much more likely to be described as Elvish Runes than Daeron's, as Daeron's is more commonly Dwarf Runes (Dwarrowrunes?).

***Sharkû*** · 12-23-2002, 07:41 PM

I think it is not necessarily a matter of the definition of runes, but a case where the Ring inscription was an exception. Sauron may have used Tengwar on it for several reasons, mockery probably not the least.

tangerine · 12-23-2002, 10:32 PM

Just because he used Elvish lettering once doesn't mean he made a habit of it. For all we know, it may have helped tie the One Ring into the other Rings made by Celebrimbor.

Galorme · 12-24-2002, 05:36 AM

Tangerine I like that: Using Elvish words to made Dark Speach inscriptions, it mimmics the way he used the elves and elvish lore to further his dark plans.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

Selmo · 12-24-2002, 10:43 AM

Gandalf gave the reason why Sauron used Elvish letters on the One Ring; Mordor didn't have a script that was fine enough for the job.

It's as simple as that.

.

Galorme · 12-24-2002, 11:16 AM

Fine as in nice looking? Or fine as in thin?

doug*platypus · 01-04-2003, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Lets look at the evidence: Gandalf is a Maia, recognised as being one of the wises beings on ME. Legolas was a young elf with only 5 facial expressions and a vocabulary of "ORC!" who was contradicted by the script on the ring. Who would you believe?

LOL! Good call. That's pretty much it, right there - what would Legolas know about one of the Ainur?

I've always liked the bit where Gandalf says only Elf runes are fine enough - it makes me picture the Ring if an Orc had written on it, all big chunky half-illiterate graffiti, "MASTER WUZ HAIR" or something!

akhtene · 01-05-2003, 04:44 PM

It is said that Orcs had no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues. Hence there was no 'orkish' letters.
The Black Speech devised by Sauron hardly had its written form (Who would need it? Orks or trolls?)

Thus what is left for Sauron to engrave his verse? Only two alphabets, and both of elven origin. So Tengwar was probably chosen as more ancient and finer looking (in both senses)

Now for Legolas's comment: Can an Eye write? or print? or engrave? or...
It definitely means Sauron DOESN'T use ANY runes at the time. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Ithaeliel · 01-05-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Lets look at the evidence: Gandalf is a Maia, recognised as being one of the wises beings on ME. Legolas was a young elf with only 5 facial expressions and a vocabulary of "ORC!" who was contradicted by the script on the ring. Who would you believe?

Ooh, someone is gonna dieeeee today... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

*Ahem* Sorry. The RUNES on the helmet and the SCRIPT on the ring... oh, wait. I just said it. LePetitChoux said it also. Gandalf distinctly stated that it was an ancient mode of Elvish; I'm guessing a more ancient Tengwar script (the two look similar). The symbol used on the helms of the Uruk-hai was likely Angerthas, which, Dwarfish or Daeron, is clearly defined as a runic system in Appendix E of RotK. As it has been proved many times before in different discussions, it's in the wording.

Galorme · 01-05-2003, 05:52 PM

All the scripts were also called Runes. The Runes of Rumil, and the later form of them the Feanorion Runes, as well as the Runes of Daeron. They were all Elvish Runes. There is no problem of wording. Also I dont believe there is such a thing as Dwarrow Runes as such, the Long Rune-Rows of Moria were merely another name for the Runes of Daeron. Lets face it, pretty face, not much brains [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ]

12-23-2002, 05:16 AM	#2
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Lets look at the evidence: Gandalf is a Maia, recognised as being one of the wises beings on ME. Legolas was a young elf with only 5 facial expressions and a vocabulary of "ORC!" who was contradicted by the script on the ring. Who would you believe? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-23-2002, 08:17 AM	#3
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	Well, Legolas was referring to elf-RUNES, while the inscription on the ring wasn't runes, but flowy letters (Very good vocabulary, I know). Also, Legolas said that Sauron doesn't USE them, but remember, the ring was made a long time ago, so he may have USED them before. __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

12-23-2002, 06:51 PM	#4
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	I believe that the letters on the ring was Tengwar, or Feanor's Runes (still a form of runes). It depends on what you define as runes. You can say Runes being only Daeron's Runes, but then you have to problem that the Feanorion (sp?) Alphabet is much more likely to be described as Elvish Runes than Daeron's, as Daeron's is more commonly Dwarf Runes (Dwarrowrunes?). __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-24-2002, 05:36 AM	#7
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Tangerine I like that: Using Elvish words to made Dark Speach inscriptions, it mimmics the way he used the elves and elvish lore to further his dark plans. [ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-24-2002, 11:16 AM	#9
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Fine as in nice looking? Or fine as in thin? __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-23-2002, 07:41 PM	#5
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	I think it is not necessarily a matter of the definition of runes, but a case where the Ring inscription was an exception. Sauron may have used Tengwar on it for several reasons, mockery probably not the least.

12-23-2002, 10:32 PM	#6
tangerine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 100	Just because he used Elvish lettering once doesn't mean he made a habit of it. For all we know, it may have helped tie the One Ring into the other Rings made by Celebrimbor.

12-24-2002, 10:43 AM	#8
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Gandalf gave the reason why Sauron used Elvish letters on the One Ring; Mordor didn't have a script that was fine enough for the job. It's as simple as that. .

01-05-2003, 04:44 PM	#11
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	It is said that Orcs had no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues. Hence there was no 'orkish' letters. The Black Speech devised by Sauron hardly had its written form (Who would need it? Orks or trolls?) Thus what is left for Sauron to engrave his verse? Only two alphabets, and both of elven origin. So Tengwar was probably chosen as more ancient and finer looking (in both senses) Now for Legolas's comment: Can an Eye write? or print? or engrave? or... It definitely means Sauron DOESN'T use ANY runes at the time. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

01-05-2003, 05:52 PM	#13
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	All the scripts were also called Runes. The Runes of Rumil, and the later form of them the Feanorion Runes, as well as the Runes of Daeron. They were all Elvish Runes. There is no problem of wording. Also I dont believe there is such a thing as Dwarrow Runes as such, the Long Rune-Rows of Moria were merely another name for the Runes of Daeron. Lets face it, pretty face, not much brains [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Galorme ] __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!