A Latent Desire? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorthaur the Cruel · 07-04-2005, 08:12 PM

Quote:

It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful; but its power upon her was great also and unforseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return into the West, so that her joy in Middle-earth was diminished. --Unfinished Tales, "THG&C"

I don't understand why this had a side-effect on her. Can any experts try to give theories please.

Elianna · 07-04-2005, 09:01 PM

Galadriel, by using Nenya, was trying to make her realm more unchanging, more beautiful: more like Valinor. And it worked, Lórien reminded her of Valinor, reminded her of all the wonderful things of the country of her birth, and in contrast she was stuck in Middle-earth, with the threat of Sauron.

davem · 07-05-2005, 06:23 AM

Nenya is the Ring of Water.

Now, that's either virtually irrelavant, or its central to explaining why it affected Galadriel so. I can't decide, because I haven't thought deeply enough about how the Rings relate to the elements they 'symbolise'/control. Was there some kind of 'psychic' link established between the wearer & the element? If there was then Galadriel's latent desire for the Sea would have been awakened by her possession & use of Nenya.

Its also interesting that Tolkien speaks of 'its power upon her'. The Rings (& not simply the One) seemed to exert a power over the wearer. To what extent was Galadriel 'influenced' by the Ring she wore? This idea, that Nenya had an innate power which it exerted upon Galadriel brings up another question - was Nenya in some way intentionally exerting its power on her, or was the power just there & her response simply an awakening of a latent desire - Tolkien's words could be read that way. On the other hand, to speak of 'its power upon her' seems to imply that the Ring is actively causing her to feel the way she did, that it wasn't simply a catalyst but more of an active agent.

Did Celebrimbor know of this 'power'? did he give Galadriel Nenya knowing that it would increase her latent desire for the West - ie, did he have ulterior motives: he loved her, maybe he wanted her out of Middle-earth, in the West, where she would be safe?

Or maybe this 'power' over the wearer comes from Sauron's input into their making?

Saurreg · 07-05-2005, 06:30 AM

Perhaps it is a side-effect of the power rush - realization that she would have been better off in valinor than there in middle-earth.

Kuruharan · 07-05-2005, 01:23 PM

Quote:

he loved her, maybe he wanted her out of Middle-earth, in the West, where she would be safe?

And away from Celeborn?

Quote:

Perhaps it is a side-effect of the power rush - realization that she would have been better off in valinor than there in middle-earth.

But that would be inherently contradictory. By going to Valinor she would be permanently giving up any possibility of indulging in power rushes.

Eruanna · 07-05-2005, 02:31 PM

Quote:

davem said:
Was there some kind of 'psychic' link established between the wearer & the element? If there was then Galadriel's latent desire for the Sea would have been awakened by her possession & use of Nenya.

I too, have wondered about this. I am convinced of the link between the 'Three' and the elements that they represent. I don't see how someone, with such a deep love of language as Tolkien, would have named the rings as he did, without there being a direct link.

There is another connection between Galadriel and water. She uses water from her stream in Lorien in order to 'see'. Ulmo is Lord of the Seas, but his power is in all water; rivers, streams, including Galadriel's stream. Were not the Themes of Illuvatar heard strongly in the sea? Perhaps this is also part of the 'sea-longing', the need to be closer to the creator?

Forgive my ramblings, I haven't got it all worked out in my head yet. I'm just sure that there's a connection.

davem · 07-05-2005, 03:21 PM

I wonder about this 'connection' - symbolically Water relates to the emotions, Fire to the spirit & Air to the intellect. These elements seem to relate perfectly to Galadriel, Gandalf & Elrond, especially as the first element is traditionally 'female' & the second two 'male'. Its as though the bearers of the Rings are, on some level, 'manifestations' of those elements. They are almost the element 'made flesh'.

Question is, were they always like that - ie did they each recieve the Ring which was of the element closest to their nature, or did their natures change in some way because of the 'power' of the particular Ring they bore?

Elianna · 07-05-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Question is, were they always like that - ie did they each recieve the Ring which was of the element closest to their nature, or did their natures change in some way because of the 'power' of the particular Ring they bore?

Well if you're saying that ?ir is intellect, then that would fit for Elrond always being that way and being given the Ring closet to his nature, because didn't he choose to be Elven because of his want to learn? ?nd in the same way fire/spirit would fit for Gandalf, especially as Olorin, "...he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts."

But as for Galadriel being "emotion"...I'm not sure. Or perhaps there's something else that water could represent.

piosenniel · 07-05-2005, 06:40 PM

The ring which Elrond received, Vilya, was originally given to Gil-galad. He gave it to Elrond around the the time that Imladris was founded.

mormegil · 07-05-2005, 08:06 PM

Leaving the blessed realm and coming to Middle-earth any staying so many years had a diminishing effect on Galadriel. With a ring of power her old glory and power possibly awoke within her and caused this effect.

Also in rereading the quote I found the word "latent" to be revealing. The desire had resided in her many years and the ring strenghtened that desire. Perhaps it had an effect on the wearer to increase desires and especially those of water as spoken of earlier.

Disclaimer...you asked for experts...I myself and not one but thought I would interject in this topic

Formendacil · 07-06-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eruanna

There is another connection between Galadriel and water. She uses water from her stream in Lorien in order to 'see'. Ulmo is Lord of the Seas, but his power is in all water; rivers, streams, including Galadriel's stream. Were not the Themes of Illuvatar heard strongly in the sea? Perhaps this is also part of the 'sea-longing', the need to be closer to the creator?

This water/Ulmo connection has got me thinking...

In the Ainulindale (I believe) it says that water, more than in anything else, can be heard an echo of the Music of the Ainur. Now, since this Music is as a Fate to most things (although as the Ages pass this seems to become less true), would it be possible by "tapping into" the waters of Arda to "listen in on" the Music, and so have a greater ability to predict the future on one's hands?

Galadriel, bearing of Nenya, the water ring, is the most far-seeing of the Ringbearers. He special gift is looking into people's minds and looking into what is to come. There is also her Mirror- another water/foreseeing thing.

Curious, don't you think?

EDIT: As I exited this thread, the ideas started coming to me regarding Elrond and Gandalf. Back on the Luthien vs. Galadriel thread, I said that Elrond's field of specialisation seems to be healing. How does Vilya, the Ring of Air, have anything to do with that, I wondered?

Well, it's a tenuous connection, I suppose, but my idea was that it might have something to do with Manwe and Varda. After all, Vilya is connected to the winds and the stars. And who do the Elves call to in times of distress? Varda (Elbereth)... I'm not sure if there's any connection, just throwing out thoughts...

Gandalf, on the other hand, is a lot more obvious to understand. His "specialty" if one may call it that, is the ability to inspire and prod into action; to enkindle, so to speak. And while there is no particalar Vala or Valar associated with Fire, Fire is a very important element. Or perhaps one ought to say Light, in the context that I am thinking of. Basically, I'm seeing a connection between the Holy Light of the Lamps, Trees, Stars, and Sun and Moon and the inspiring Fire of Narya. Remember that Gandalf says to the Balrog "I am... the Wielder of the Flame of Anor", which directly ties his power in to the divine power of the Sun, derived from the light of the Trees.

Anyway, there's a few ideas that popped into my head. Make of them what you will.

Eruanna · 07-07-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Or perhaps one ought to say Light, in the context that I am thinking of. Basically, I'm seeing a connection between the Holy Light of the Lamps, Trees, Stars, and Sun and Moon and the inspiring Fire of Narya

Good point Formendacil. There are many instances in 'The Hobbit' when Gandalf uses or makes light; after killing the Great Goblin and during the Battle of the Five Armies spring to mind. Also, in Moria and the rescue of Faramir from the Nazgul in LotR.

'...he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards...'

Narya? Or Gandalf's staff? Or does the staff merely 'amplify' the ring?

Gorthaur the Cruel · 07-07-2005, 07:29 PM

Very good theories everyone. I myself have always been confused by this. How has Nenya diminished her love for middle-earth when she desired so much to save her realm? Her laments over the loss of her own power to preserve her land contradicts with the supposed joy-diminishing effect of Nenya. If her joy was truly diminished by her ring of power then why does she say the following:

Quote:

Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained forever lost. - The Fellowship of the Ring

Her words above gives me the impression that although Sauron is potent even without the One, she can still defend and maintain Lothlorien for so long as He doesn't obtain it. She's powerful indeed (pupil of Melian who has managed to gaze deeper into the future, perhaps exceeding her tutor).

Perhaps this is another one of Tolkien's inconsistencies (i.e. Celeborn & Amroth's origins)?

Kuruharan · 07-07-2005, 07:48 PM

Perhaps, like many people, Galadriel struggled with conflicting desires and feelings.

Gorthaur the Cruel · 07-19-2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Perhaps, like many people, Galadriel struggled with conflicting desires and feelings.

True, but she seemed to long for Aman very much & for her to be so greatly tempted by the ring & her sorrow for the fading of Lothlorien is utterly contradictory for her urge to go home.

Kuruharan · 07-20-2005, 07:27 AM

Quote:

True, but she seemed to long for Aman very much & for her to be so greatly tempted by the ring & her sorrow for the fading of Lothlorien is utterly contradictory for her urge to go home.

Well...yes. That's the point.

07-04-2005, 09:01 PM	#2
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Galadriel, by using Nenya, was trying to make her realm more unchanging, more beautiful: more like Valinor. And it worked, Lórien reminded her of Valinor, reminded her of all the wonderful things of the country of her birth, and in contrast she was stuck in Middle-earth, with the threat of Sauron. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

07-05-2005, 06:23 AM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Nenya is the Ring of Water. Now, that's either virtually irrelavant, or its central to explaining why it affected Galadriel so. I can't decide, because I haven't thought deeply enough about how the Rings relate to the elements they 'symbolise'/control. Was there some kind of 'psychic' link established between the wearer & the element? If there was then Galadriel's latent desire for the Sea would have been awakened by her possession & use of Nenya. Its also interesting that Tolkien speaks of 'its power upon her'. The Rings (& not simply the One) seemed to exert a power over the wearer. To what extent was Galadriel 'influenced' by the Ring she wore? This idea, that Nenya had an innate power which it exerted upon Galadriel brings up another question - was Nenya in some way intentionally exerting its power on her, or was the power just there & her response simply an awakening of a latent desire - Tolkien's words could be read that way. On the other hand, to speak of 'its power upon her' seems to imply that the Ring is actively causing her to feel the way she did, that it wasn't simply a catalyst but more of an active agent. Did Celebrimbor know of this 'power'? did he give Galadriel Nenya knowing that it would increase her latent desire for the West - ie, did he have ulterior motives: he loved her, maybe he wanted her out of Middle-earth, in the West, where she would be safe? Or maybe this 'power' over the wearer comes from Sauron's input into their making? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-05-2005, 06:30 AM	#4
Saurreg Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In self imposed exile... Posts: 465	Perhaps it is a side-effect of the power rush - realization that she would have been better off in valinor than there in middle-earth. __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " ~Voltaire

07-05-2005, 03:21 PM	#7
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I wonder about this 'connection' - symbolically Water relates to the emotions, Fire to the spirit & Air to the intellect. These elements seem to relate perfectly to Galadriel, Gandalf & Elrond, especially as the first element is traditionally 'female' & the second two 'male'. Its as though the bearers of the Rings are, on some level, 'manifestations' of those elements. They are almost the element 'made flesh'. Question is, were they always like that - ie did they each recieve the Ring which was of the element closest to their nature, or did their natures change in some way because of the 'power' of the particular Ring they bore? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

07-05-2005, 06:40 PM	#9
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	The ring which Elrond received, Vilya, was originally given to Gil-galad. He gave it to Elrond around the the time that Imladris was founded. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-05-2005, 08:06 PM	#10
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,636	Leaving the blessed realm and coming to Middle-earth any staying so many years had a diminishing effect on Galadriel. With a ring of power her old glory and power possibly awoke within her and caused this effect. Also in rereading the quote I found the word "latent" to be revealing. The desire had resided in her many years and the ring strenghtened that desire. Perhaps it had an effect on the wearer to increase desires and especially those of water as spoken of earlier. Disclaimer...you asked for experts...I myself and not one but thought I would interject in this topic __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

07-07-2005, 07:48 PM	#14
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	Perhaps, like many people, Galadriel struggled with conflicting desires and feelings. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...