Where is the horse and the rider? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TealDude3 · 02-22-2003, 07:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where is the horse and the rider, Where is the horn that was blowing, They have passed like rain on the mountain, Like wind in the meadow, The days come down in the west, Behind the hills, to shadow... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What do you think this poen means?

the real findorfin · 02-22-2003, 07:52 PM

Possibly it means that, like Gondor of old, the power of Rohan is diminshing and (at the time the quote is said both in the film-Theoden and the book-Aragorn) times look dark. The power and splendour of the horse lords of old is gone. Eorl and his mount are dead, the horn of Helm blows no more (metaphorically).well thats my opinion.

Iarwain · 02-22-2003, 08:00 PM

Well, they sing it in the book, perhaps you would like to look it up in the index. It is clearly sung by the Rohirrim, mourning a great lord, fallen in battle. I believe that it is mourning the coming of the shadow through Saruman, and the passing of the greatness of the mark. I'm not sure if you had it in full, if not, here it is.Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing? Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing? Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing? They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow. Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning, Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

Birdland · 02-23-2003, 07:34 PM

Nothing much to add to this thread, except to say that the above is one of the few poems where Tolkien earns his reputation as a bard. I'm thinking that there is a name for a poem of this style, and it is of ancient origins (not the poem itself, but the style). Any info? Or maybe that question should be in the Books threads.

Arvedui III · 02-23-2003, 07:40 PM

It reminds me of a Norse style, but I can't think of the name.

Tar-Palantir · 02-23-2003, 08:05 PM

That poem gives me chills, thanks for posting it in full. It sounds alot like a lament of cultural loss and of a tide that has gone out never to return.[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

Rochelle · 02-23-2003, 08:16 PM

I loved that poem...it was definatly one of my favorites. Whenever I read it I think of something that was but is no more...just a part of their folklore. Tolkien sure was a master of his craft...I'm sure you all agree.

Meela · 02-24-2003, 02:01 PM

*bursts into tears* i always cry at things like that... i cried during the movie. i have a very strong sense of cultural loss: the whole nordic and celtic sense has died out in our world, but its the heritage i love most. the poem is kinda part of that culture and heritage, right? the whole nordic/rohirric relation? makes it much sadder for me.

Himaran · 04-02-2003, 06:29 AM

Yes, it is definantly a line that shows Theoden knows many Rohirrim will die in the upcoming battle; thus, he is singing a song of mourning before it happens. He must be very depressed.Himaran

04-03-2003, 04:34 AM

It's highly reminiscent of the Anglo-Saxon poem "The Wanderer". Here's a fragment:"Where now is the warrior? Where is the warhorse? Bestowal of treasure and sharing of feast? Alas! the bright ale-cup, the byrny-clad warrior, The prince in his splendor--those days are long sped In the night of the past, as if they had never been!" And now remain only, for warriors' memorial, A wall wondrous high with serpent shapes carved.****** This is from the Charles W. Kennedy translation in my Medieval English Lit. textbook from 1972--one of the main reasons I've kept the book so many years.A quick search on the Web didn't produce that translation but many other results worth a look, including "The Wanderer Project": <A HREF="http://www.uvsc.edu/courseinfo/engl/mcdonari/wanderweb/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.uvsc.edu/courseinfo/engl/mcdonari/wanderweb/</A> There's much more to discuss, but I must needs gird myself for the quest for sustenance (that is, get ready for work!) Many thanks to Peter Jackson & his crew for letting us hear those stirring words & showing us the "wall wondrous high with serpent shapes carved".

secretfire · 04-03-2003, 04:46 AM

Aside from being a poem of foreboding and evanescence, couldn't it also be a call to arms to the people of Rohan? All the asking in the poem (Where? Where? Who?) may have been meant to rouse the Rohirrim from their lethargy and face war head on. To war! Because unless someone fights for whatever beauty is left in Middle Earth, everything will fall to ruin...[ April 04, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ]

02-22-2003, 07:43 PM	#1
TealDude3 Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Bebop Posts: 138	Where is the horse and the rider? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where is the horse and the rider, <BR>Where is the horn that was blowing,<BR>They have passed like rain on the mountain, <BR>Like wind in the meadow, <BR>The days come down in the west, <BR>Behind the hills, to shadow... <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What do you think this poen means? __________________ I'm so hungry, I could eat at Arby's.

02-22-2003, 07:52 PM	#2
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	Possibly it means that, like Gondor of old, the power of Rohan is diminshing and <I>(at the time the quote is said both in the film-Theoden and the book-Aragorn)</I> times look dark. The power and splendour of the horse lords of old is gone. Eorl and his mount are dead, the horn of Helm blows no more (metaphorically).<P>well thats my opinion. __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

02-22-2003, 08:00 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Well, they sing it in the book, perhaps you would like to look it up in the index. It is clearly sung by the Rohirrim, mourning a great lord, fallen in battle. I believe that it is mourning the coming of the shadow through Saruman, and the passing of the greatness of the mark. I'm not sure if you had it in full, if not, here it is.<P>Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?<BR> Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?<BR> Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?<BR> Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?<BR> They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;<BR> The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.<BR> Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,<BR> Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning? __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

02-23-2003, 07:34 PM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Nothing much to add to this thread, except to say that the above is one of the few poems where Tolkien earns his reputation as a bard. <P>I'm thinking that there is a name for a poem of this style, and it is of ancient origins (not the poem itself, but the style). Any info? Or maybe that question should be in the Books threads.

02-23-2003, 07:40 PM	#5
Arvedui III Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Rohan, with Carolina on my mind Posts: 629	It reminds me of a Norse style, but I can't think of the name. __________________ I have no idea what you just said, but I'm inspired!

02-23-2003, 08:05 PM	#6
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	That poem gives me chills, thanks for posting it in full. It sounds alot like a lament of cultural loss and of a tide that has gone out never to return.<p>[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ] __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

02-23-2003, 08:16 PM	#7
Rochelle Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Bonfire Glade RtR 80 miles Posts: 376	I loved that poem...it was definatly one of my favorites. Whenever I read it I think of something that was but is no more...just a part of their folklore. <P>Tolkien sure was a master of his craft...I'm sure you all agree. __________________ Ad Astra Per Aspera (A rough road leads to the stars) "Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens"

02-24-2003, 02:01 PM	#8
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	bursts into tears <P>i always cry at things like that... i cried during the movie.<BR>i have a very strong sense of cultural loss: the whole nordic and celtic sense has died out in our world, but its the heritage i love most. the poem is kinda part of that culture and heritage, right? the whole nordic/rohirric relation? makes it much sadder for me. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

04-02-2003, 06:29 AM	#9
Himaran Ash of Orodruin Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thangorodrim Posts: 777	Yes, it is definantly a line that shows Theoden knows many Rohirrim will die in the upcoming battle; thus, he is singing a song of mourning before it happens. He must be very depressed.<P>Himaran

04-03-2003, 04:34 AM	#10
Brigid de Burgo Guest Posts: n/a	It's highly reminiscent of the Anglo-Saxon poem "The Wanderer". Here's a fragment:<P>"Where now is the warrior? Where is the warhorse?<BR>Bestowal of treasure and sharing of feast?<BR>Alas! the bright ale-cup, the byrny-clad warrior, <BR>The prince in his splendor--those days are long sped<BR>In the night of the past, as if they had never been!"<BR>And now remain only, for warriors' memorial, <BR>A wall wondrous high with serpent shapes carved.<P>******<BR>This is from the Charles W. Kennedy translation in my Medieval English Lit. textbook from 1972--one of the main reasons I've kept the book so many years.<P>A quick search on the Web didn't produce that translation but many other results worth a look, including "The Wanderer Project": <A HREF="http://www.uvsc.edu/courseinfo/engl/mcdonari/wanderweb/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.uvsc.edu/courseinfo/engl/mcdonari/wanderweb/</A> <P>There's much more to discuss, but I must needs gird myself for the quest for sustenance (that is, get ready for work!) <P>Many thanks to Peter Jackson & his crew for letting us hear those stirring words & showing us the "wall wondrous high with serpent shapes carved".

04-03-2003, 04:46 AM	#11
secretfire Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 21	Aside from being a poem of foreboding and evanescence, couldn't it also be a call to arms to the people of Rohan? All the asking in the poem (Where? Where? Who?) may have been meant to rouse the Rohirrim from their lethargy and face war head on. To war! Because unless someone fights for whatever beauty is left in Middle Earth, everything will fall to ruin...<p>[ April 04, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ] __________________ "Leave now and never come back! (3x)" Dr. Gollum's prescribed mantra against multiple personality disorder.