Elven Characteristics

[cellurdur]

We will agree to disagree on this matter.

[Nerwen]

Well, cellurdur, until such time as you can come up with anything I would call actual support for your arguments (as opposed to just stating them over and over) we're going to have to, aren't we? We just seem to differ fundamentally on how we interpret apparently simple information (descriptions, measurements, the terms of Tolkien's will, etc.). I guess that's it.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, cellurdur, until such time as you can come up with anything I would call actual support for your arguments (as opposed to just stating them over and over) we're going to have to, aren't we? We just seem to differ fundamentally on how we interpret apparently simple information (descriptions, measurements, the terms of Tolkien's will, etc.). I guess that's it.

Now I have seen the quote in context I would have thought that sometimes we need to need take things in the context they are said.

the Númenóreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of Men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Númenóreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man..., probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenórean lineage, not much shorter, (say 6 ft. 4).'

The full quote.

1. The Numenoreans before the downfall were very often 7ft tall and especially in the noble families.
2. So 7ft tall is nothing special for a Numenorean and even the average commoners were sometimes 7ft tall
3. The Lords and descendants of Elros were taller than common men.
4. Elendil was very tall even compared to the nobility.
5. Tolkien has to be taken literally when he says Elendil was 7ft.
6. Tolkien is contradicting himself about Elendil being tall for a Numenorean.

According to your argument it's no wonder Tolkien contradicts himself in a different passage, he contradicts hiimself in the passage above. It would be best if Elendil the Tall was renamed Elendil of Common Height.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I agree that describing someone as 6'6 as a 6 footer may be pushing it, but I don't think it's rare for someone 6'4 to be described as a 6 footer when in a group with other people over 6 foot.

That is absurd. I am 6'2'' and my brother is 6'5". No one has ever described me as a 6 footer, and certainly no one has ever said that to my brother (who also weighs about 290 lbs -- he's usually referred to as a monster of one sort or another). Perhaps people who are 5'11'' might strive to be called a "6 footer", but when you are taller, it is evident to just about everyone.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is absurd. I am 6'2'' and my brother is 6'5". No one has ever described me as a 6 footer, and certainly no one has ever said that to my brother (who also weighs about 290 lbs -- he's usually referred to as a monster of one sort or another). Perhaps people who are 5'11'' might strive to be called a "6 footer", but when you are taller, it is evident to just about everyone.

I have already given examples of this happening fairly often.

I think perhaps you need to look at the definition of what a six footer is.

six-footer
n
1. a person who is at least six feet tall

I emphasise the AT LEAST part.

Just have a look for yourself and you will see Edward IV the tallest ever English king commonly being referred to as a six-footer.

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, having seen the quote in context also, I don't understand why you suppose doing so makes any difference. I don't say- and never said- the quote necessarily means "Elendil was exactly seven feet tall". I say that at the time Tolkien wrote that Isildur and Elendil had both "been seven feet tall", he could not have really meant Elendil was almost eight feet tall.

Further, it is not necessary for someone to be extraordinarily, freakishly tall for him or her to be regarded as tall. You keep saying it is, but that doesn't make it so.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, having seen the quote in context also, I don't understand why you suppose doing so makes any difference. I don't say- and never said- the quote necessarily means "Elendil was exactly seven feet tall". I say that at the time Tolkien wrote that Isildur and Elendil had both "been seven feet tall", he could not have really meant Elendil was almost eight feet tall.

Further, it is not necessary for someone to be extraordinarily, freakishly tall for him or her to be regarded as tall. You keep saying it is, but that doesn't make it so.

Uhh why not could he have meant that Elendil was 7'10? 10 inches taller than the average is not freakishly tall for the tallest man in a country. Elendil being 7'10 is no different than a man being 6'8 today. Average height for a Uk male is about 5'10; somebody who is 6'8 would gain the nickname the tall not somebody 6'2.

So what height do you think would be acceptable then for the tallest man in a country, where the average height was 7ft?

So what do you think is a good estimate for a tall Numenorean if the average is 7ft? How about an exceptionally tall Numenorean? I am beaten by the logic. An average Numenorean is 7ft tall and one of the tallest Numenoreans is wait for it also 7ft tall. Elendil the Not so Tall at best was an inch or two taller than the average Numenorean makes perfect sense. I am finished replying to this topic.

[Lissë]

Thank you, Galin and Nerwen. This was very helpful. So elven women wore their hair braided? And Fingon as well? How do you think those braids looked like? Tolkien might have known photos of Native Americans, but since he was focused on Europe I guess we can exclude inspiration from that source. Unfortunately there are no illustration of Celtic hairstyles, and in the Middle Age women wore veils.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lissë

Thank you, Galin and Nerwen. This was very helpful. So elven women wore their hair braided? And Fingon as well?

You're welcome Lisse. Fingon seems to, generally speaking; I mean if Tolkien chose to mention this style for him...

At the moment I'm not sure about Elven women in general. The quote with Idril is from the very early [and abandoned] work called The Book of Lost Tales, and the reason I posted it was more to see if anyone knew of any possible Primary World description or custom that might reflect Idril wearing her hair 'unbraided' on her wedding day.

As I say in 'Hairy-pottering' I was more focusing on male descriptions, although today I was just reminded of Arwen Halfelven's description in The Lord of the Rings, with a mention of braids anyway: 'Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms...' There must be more descriptions for the women in JRRT's tales, but I haven't been looking for them lately.


Concerning Native Americans, I only have a vague memory of Carpenter's biography mentioning that Tolkien liked Native American stories and that he longed to shoot with a bow. Tom Shippey writes:

'In the same way Fenimore Cooper's hero Natty Bumppo prides himself on his English ancestry, while Tolkien recorded an early devotion to Red Indians, bows and arrows and forests' ('On Fairy Stories' in Reader, p. 63)'

Tolkien's sources: the True Tradition, The Road to Middle-Earth, T. Shippey

That's quite general however. And I know nothing about Native American hair styles in any case. Since posting that quote about Idril I've read a decent chunk of the Kalevala, but so far I can find no reference, with respect to a wedding [plenty of references to braids in general however] to echo Tolkien's description here. And even if I did, again it might only serve as a 'possible' inspiration in any event.

Anyway, sourcing Tolkien's inspiration is tricky! Despite Shippey's chapter title [the 'true tradition']

[Lissë]

Thanks again! You're a real scholar! May I ask how braids are described in the Kalevala? Primary World sources are the published works?

[Galin]

Sorry for any confusion Lisse: when I say Primary World sources I mean 'Real World' sources, like Kalevala, or the Poetic Edda.

Hmm, now I've got to remember what I've read so far in Kalevala about braids. Hard to recall at the moment so I'll do a quick search on the interweb; but I do generally remember the reference 'braid-head' like in the translation given below these first two examples...

Then the fearless Lemminkainen,
Mouth awry and visage wrinkled,
Shook his sable locks and answered:
"Never in my recollection
Have I heard or seen such treatment,
Never have I been derided,
Never suffered sneers of women,
Never suffered scorn of virgins,
Not in my immortal life-time.
Is there any place befitting
On the Sahri-plains and pastures,
Where to join in songs and dances?
Is there here a hall for pleasure,
Where the Sahri-maidens linger,
Merry maids with braided tresses?"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune11.htm


'Cause enough for weeping, sister,
Good the reasons for my sorrow:
Therefore come I as thou seest,
On my head no scarlet fillet,
In my hair no braids of silver,
On mine arms no purple ribbons,
Round my neck no shining necklace,
On my breast no golden crosslet,
In mine ears no golden ear-rings.'

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune04.htm


(...) Over all, around his middle,
A gold-ornamented belt
Woven for him by his mother
When she was a braid-head maiden;
Then the well-embroidered gloves,
Golden-wristed fancy gauntlets (...)

http://kalevala.gov.karelia.ru/songs/song18_e.shtml


Just for some references I found on the web anyway

[Lissë]

Thank you!

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way, anyone think that the following two descriptions are intended to be consonant with each other:





And...




Or to put it another way, how do you [anyone] interpret this second description, if [for sake of argument] it's read on its own, without the influence of other descriptions?

Or to put it another, another way: if Tolkien believed the first description was 'true' when he wrote the second, do you think he would write this second general description this way?

I think the second seems like a slight 'revision' [or the first, considering I don't know which came before the other] but at least one other person disagrees and [seemingly] finds them in easy accord with each other.

For me both sentences easily agree with each-other. In the second one he was talking about how rare was for their women to be less than 6' and immediately after that he states that their man are NO LESS than 6'6'', so it's pretty consistent the fact that he wasn't talking about an average(there is also no mention of that). The sentence is definitely more concerned into giving us a minimum height.
Kings and leaders were taller than the average (which isn't mentioned).
Supposing that 6'6'' is the full-grown elfmen average height is the same of saying that their woman average is also probably very close to 6'6'' and grammatically the semicolon";" is giving us an "antithesis" and also Tolkien never states that their woman were as tall as their man with only exceptions like Galadriel being as tall as Celeborn.

[Galin]

By the way Nerwen, I was wondering about your response to my post number 11. Of course you don't have to respond. Nobody 'has' to; and plenty of people and animals ignore me, so I'll take no offense.

I won't tell you why I ask you specifically however... well unless you ask

If it helps, I'll suggest that the issue of Elven height is as important as Elven hair colour...

... so how can you resist

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way Nerwen, I was wondering about your response to my post number 11. Of course you don't have to respond. Nobody 'has' to; and plenty of people and animals ignore me, so I'll take no offense.

I won't tell you why I ask you specifically however... well unless you ask

If it helps, I'll suggest that the issue of Elven height is as important as Elven hair colour...

... so how can you resist

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.

[Nerwen]

To clarify: I'm making a guess here at what Tolkien was *trying* to say- the problem is that, taken literally, that second passage doesn't really add up at all. So I'm assuming he just hadn't thought it all out in terms of normal distribution etc. Or else he was just using stock phrases, and the statement that Elf-men were "no less than six and a half feet" is to be taken in the same sense as the preceding one that "their women were seldom less than six feet in height"; that is, a rough indication of normal height rather than a lower limit. This would explain how only "some of the great kings and leaders" were taller than this (apparent) bare minimum.

Again, though the phrasing is ambiguous enough that it's hard to be sure exactly what he did mean.

[Galin]

Yes Nerwen, you understood my question exactly.

And I agree, although you phrased it all better than I usually do. Thanks!

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.

Why would he say that most of them are taller than 6'6'' if he just said that they are no less than 6'6''?? that means the same thing. I will repeat there is no average statement being said in this sentence, their kings and leaders are taller than the average that it's not said. That doesn't sound like a revision at all, Elendil's height certainly does although. Look how I explained grammatically in my commentary above. And why pretend that Tolkien wasn't talking about a minimum height when he say "No less" and "seldom less"?
Exactly!!! I think there is no need to keep jumping through mental hoops you can simply look at their minimum and try to imagine their average.
Why wouldn't Tolkien be thinking about an average close to 7' if he stated that 6'6'' is the minimum? And that doesn't necessarily means that this is a revision since in "Dwarves and Men" they were talking about Hobbits and in this sentence he was strictly talking about the Eldar.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes Nerwen, you understood my question exactly.

And I agree, although you phrased it all better than I usually do. Thanks!

Indeed!!!

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Are you asking if I think one quote sounds like a revision of the other? Yes, I do- on the whole. Saying that people in a certain group are "no less than" a given height, while "some of" them are taller is a *very* vague way way of putting it; there certainly isn't the clear discrepancy that exists in the statements about Elendil. However, I'd say that if Tolkien was *at this point* thinking of the height of the male Eldar as being "about seven of our feet", he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

This is a matter of interpretation, though; I think it is also possible to reconcile the two quotes if you want to without jumping through too many mental hoops.

, he would, at least, have said "most of" them were taller (than six-foot-six).

That's why I'm saying that there isn't a revision at all. And tell me where is the difference between saying that a group of people is taller than 6'6'' and saying that the minimum height of that group is 6'6''? - both of them means they are taller than 6'6''.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

To clarify: I'm making a guess here at what Tolkien was *trying* to say- the problem is that, taken literally, that second passage doesn't really add up at all. So I'm assuming he just hadn't thought it all out in terms of normal distribution etc. Or else he was just using stock phrases, and the statement that Elf-men were "no less than six and a half feet" is to be taken in the same sense as the preceding one that "their women were seldom less than six feet in height"; that is, a rough indication of normal height rather than a lower limit. This would explain how only "some of the great kings and leaders" were taller than this (apparent) bare minimum.

Again, though the phrasing is ambiguous enough that it's hard to be sure exactly what he did mean.

The sentence would just be like this by what you're saying:
'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.' - You see, now what you said makes perfectly sense.
In shorter if you ignore "seldom less" and "No less" you are correct but if you add that to the sentence so she changes her meaning. So why do laps in the sentence to make her meaning the same as the reconstructed sentence I made???

[Nerwen]

aratathorn, I have already explained my reasoning in my last two posts- covering exactly those points- and do not see why I should have to do so again, especially when you adopt that tone.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

aratathorn, I have already explained my reasoning in my last two posts- covering exactly those points- and do not see why I should have to do so again, especially when you adopt that tone.

Yeah I was just trying to convince or prove that you are probably wrong but that's okay. I just don't understand why to ignore the "no less" and "seldom less" when the sentence could be much more clarifying without them. You want to put the same meaning into a sentence with or without "no less and..." and that's not write.

[Nerwen]

I'm not ignoring them. I've said I don't think either is meant to give an absolute minimum height- else "most", not "some" would be taller.

[arathorn]

So you think that there are some eldar that were shorter than 6'6'' since you think that's an average??

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm not ignoring them. I've said I don't think either is meant to give an absolute minimum height- else "most", not "some" would be taller.

Or that indicates that royal family and others leaders didn't normaly have a higher average