Grima crying???

[elfearz1]

In TTT when Saruman is showing Grima the army a tear rolls down his cheek. I just noticed that as I was watching it again. Did anyone else notice this?

[elfling]

I first saw it in the movie and i'm not really sure why. I have seen other posts on this and some it is joy. I choose to believe when he saw the army's encredible size he realized the horrible truth of his choices and the possible doomof mankind and his loss of Eowyn, and he had a moment of regret and remorse for his actions. I like to believe there was some humanity left in him or maybe he was just really happy about the fall af men.

[Melichus]

I always assumed it was just a gust of wind that made his eyes water--they're standing high up, after all.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I don't think he realized the power that Saurman had until that moment and he got scared. The tear was probably a way of him saying, "Oh sh*t! What have I got myself into?!!

[Alatariel Telemnar]

I saw Grima crying and I asked one of my friends if she saw it too but she didn't so I wasnt sure... because when I saw TTT for the first time I didnt notice it, but I did when I rented it the second time, and when my mom was watching it the third time I could't see it again... so I wasnt sure, I thought I might have been having delousions...<P>anyways... I think, as Elfling said, he was regreting what he did. I also think he had deep, deep feelings for Eowyn and feared for her life. <P>~Alatariel

[THE Ka]

What Grima was proubly thinking was :<P> *sniff* " They grow up so fast!" "and to thikn i was teaching them to kill cronnies only days ago..."<P> Don't ask why but, i notice it when i had to double look the first time i saw the movie. Then what i've typed above sprang into my mind...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> " Yes, a brat prince."<BR>- Anne Rice <I>Queen of the Damned</I>

[Essex]

I’ve had this argument before on other forums (lotronline/ fanspot) and yes, people think it is grief/sorrow etc. Look at his face. It is full of awe. There is no furrow lines on his brow you get with grief of sorrow. It is not quite joy, but here (finally) is the answer (in a roundabout sort of way) from Brad Dourif HIMSELF. <P>Question put to Brad Dourif during the Dragoncon conference: There’s been a lot a speculation among fans about the significance of “the tear”. Would you care to explain? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><BR>Well, Fran’s a genius, ya know? I think it was something that really came organically out the direction that we were going. I kind of hooked into that probably when he was young he was picked on, and that he really was perfect bait for Saruman the White. And was someone who could really never have the things he needed the most. <BR>So I think the idea was that this was somebody who fell into a dark hole and kind of wakes up in the middle looking at the “Triumph of the Will”. Which is really what he goes out and really looks at what Hitler saw when they did “Triumph of the Will”. This incredibly awesome horde that was about to be unleashed. Have you ever seen “Triumph of the Will”? For those of you who didn’t.. you guys should see this… this is a movie of Adolph Hitler’s Nazi Party, that did this festival every year in Nuremburg. This movie is a documentary, but it really gives you the power of this whole nation being consumed by this weird strength in each other’s numbers that was to unleash in this horrible war, and you can feel it in this movie. And the arrangement of the troops in “The Two Towers” was a purposeful rip off of this... because it was a defining moment just before WWII. And the documentary is called “Triumph of the Will” because it is the triumph of Adolph Hitler’s will.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It helps if you’ve seen the film (the director has recently died, so they may re run it), but the feelings “the people” had watching Hitler’s troops go by was definitely not grief or sorrow!!

[Finwe]

I think that Grima genuinely loved Eowyn, it's just that his love became bitter, since Eowyn detested him. Instead of hating him, I pity him.

[Essex]

I find it nice that most people want to see some good in Wormtounge. (Much like Frodo tried to see good in gollum). But there IS NONE. Some people are evil.<P>In Frodo's case, his ability to keep forgiving Gollum was his redemption. Without this forgiveness, the quest would have failed.<P>But why are we trying to see good in Wormtounge? In my opinion he was evil. Why do people think he 'loved' eowyn? why could it not jut be lust?

gads!! How can you say that? 'Some people are evil'? As I see it that's one of the good things about Tolkien's writing -- the characters are <I>complex</I>. It's a battle between good and evil, yes. But nothing is purely black and white! Not even Gandalf is purely white, and not even Sauron is purely black! (... ok maybe he is, but even he wasn't <I>always</I> evil).<P>And Gríma then; he must be one of the most misunderstood characters in the entire story, at least thats what I think when I read stuff like that. It's so obvious that even though he has done evil things, he's been tricked and loathed, not to mention suffered.<P>Although -- I do agree with you about Eowyn. That wasn't necessarily love (but then again maybe it was, who knows). It might've been only lust, or that she once was the only person being nice to him. That says a lot.

[HCIsland]

I noticed this the first time in the theatre and always liked the touch. For me, sure he was in awe, but underneath all that he's scared crapless. This is his first look at the shear magnitude of what he is involved in.<P>H.C.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I agree with HC like I said in my previous post.

Thanks for the quote Essex (although I still disagree that lotr was about WWII, but that's a whole 'nother(??) story.) <P>I'm not sure if Grima actually loved Eowyn, but I can see where some people would pity him, since it does seem he was just kind of following Saruman.

[Kalimac]

I don't think Grima was wholly evil, but I do think that he's been successfully playing two sides off of each other for so long that he's pretty much assumed that he'll always have a way out, and always be at least a bit in control, no matter what happens. In this scene he's stuck in the tower with Saruman, all of his dealings have been completely exposed in Rohan, and there's a massive Orc army swarming around on the ground. He literally has no escape, and no control. So yes, I agree with "What have I DONE?" as his primary thought. Not to say that he wasn't thinking about Eowyn. He's probably had his fair share of thoughts along the lines of "Oh, soon she'll be REALLY sorry she turned me down," but it's a completely different proposition to be looking at the army that will 99% likely destroy her in the next twenty-four hours. Even the most hardened former suitor would flinch at that, especially when it's completely out of his control now.

[Essex]

OK, I understand all of your points, but listen to what the actor himself says! Fran Walsh came up with the idea to base it on triumph of the will. Now I'm not just saying this, but the very second we see from behind Saruman's back the legions of armies, that's EXACTLY what I thought of. Watch this film if you can, and you will understand that it IS awe, pride, (almost) joy, in his face.

[Jack]

I though it was the wind... Myeyes always water when I am up high but thats just me...

[Knight of Gondor]

I always thought (knew) that Grima didn't have a good bone in his body. I don't think the books ever tell whether Grima actually CAME from Saruman, or whether his true loyalty was diverted with a price, but I never believed Wormtongue had any decency in him, no strain of loyalty towards Rohan.<P>I also thought, when I saw the tear, "Man, what a creep. He's actually MOVED by the sight of these living weapons of mass destruction." (Grima might have also been thinking "What the boys at WETA can <I>DO</I> these days!")

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> he was regreting what he did<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that's doubtful. Although he was originally a good councilor, etc., I think those days where long gone. Although his near turnaround late in the books showed he may not have been <I>ALL</I> bad; I think that was more attributed to his hatrid of Saruman than any goodness on his behalf. I doubt that he regretted anything he'd done, since he knew the deal was that 'once all the men where dead' he'd take his share of the 'plunder' (you know who ). I do agree with what HC & others have said, he probably didn't realize how deep in he was, but I still doubt he regretted anything.<p>[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Mariska Greenleaf]

For me, the tear rolling down his cheeck was one of the most powerfull and memorable moments in TTT! Being touched by the beauty of the army Saruman got together, wonderful!<BR>Pure evil, with an emotional touch...

[Jack]

That is a very powerful thought Mariska Greenleaf... very powerful... *goes off to ponder this fact*

[HCIsland]

For all those people that think Wormtongue has no good in him, why did he almost recount his loyality to Saruman in the end when Frodo offered him a way out? Frodo saw something there. Something redeemable.<P>Wormtongue is a tragic character, and I'm hoping this is explored a bit in King.<P>H.C.<p>[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[The Only Real Estel]

I do think that Wormtounge had some good left, but I don't think that he regretted what he did in Rohan. <P> As to him almost listening to Frodo, as I said before, I think it was more out of his hatrid of Saruman than anything...or at least his hatrid vastly out-wieghed anything else.

[Knight of Gondor]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Wormtongue is a tragic character, and I'm hoping this is explored a bit in King.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Note how he's crawling and talking like Gollum near the end of RotK? I think Worm is a lot like Gollum, and I do not pity him.<P>He did not have repentance until he thought he could escape Saruman's wrath. <P>And he'll probably be killed very early on in RotK.

[Essex]

HCIsland,<P>re Grima, your point:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Frodo saw something there. Something redeemable.[ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, but he saw the same in Gollum too didn't he!!!!<p>[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: Essex ]

[mark12_30]

Tolkien himself said that Gollum nearly repented in the pass at Cirith Ungol--the old withered hobbit whispering "Nothing, nothing, nice Massster"-- but for dear, lovable Sam's overzealous loyalty, and then the moment was gone. <P>So Frodo was not wrong. Gollum was redeemable. Even Tolkien was saddened by Sam's clumsiness at Cirith Ungol, although he admitted it was necessary to the tale. See Letters.<P>I think of all the characters in LOTR, Gandalf's (and hence Frodo's) outlook on mercy and pity most matched Tolkien's. Again, see Letters.

[Essex]

One of the things that made this book so special is that Frodo DID show mercy, even where it was not really deserved.<P>What Tolkien was showing us, in a Christian sense, that if you show Mercy then you will be redeemed, especially if that person you are showing mercy to does not reciprocate.<P>Thus the redemption that Frodo received from his show of Mercy to Gollum was that the quest was fulfilled. i.e. no gollum, no ring in the cracks of doom.

yeah i saw it in the cinema! pity the Uruks got killed in about 3 seconds!

[Essex]

Regarding Grima's tear mentioned in another recent thread <P>For an answer from the horses’ mouths, listen to the commentaries on the EE DVD for Two Towers. I finally listened to them today after being reminded from another post on this site.<P>Brad Douriff explains quite eloquently that it is AWE you are seing in Grima’s face, and explains that the scene alludes to the Nuremberg scenes from Triumph of the Will.<P>Peter Jackson backs up the point that the scenes were, indeed, taken from Nuremberg.<P>But then good old Phillipa Boyens (cutting out Fran Walsh who was just about to speak, and who worked with Brad on this scene (as explained by Brad on a previous interview) states that she loves the shot of Grima as he realises what he has done to the people of Rohan.<P>So PB throws in a curve ball to go against what others are saying! <P>I personally go with Brad Douriff’s commentary that it was a look of awe on Grima’s face when we see the tear.

[HCIsland]

Here is what is actually said in each commentary during this scene.<P>Dourif: There is no other character who could have brought over to the audience what was about to happen, who could have sold the awe. I mean, you can't ... When you look at a picture of something, it isn't the picture that sells it, you know. I mean the fact that he did an allusion to "Triumph of the Will", but that in of itself is not enough, but when you have the person that made it happen suddenly, absolutely come to grips with what it is that he has done, then it's scary. It's the perfect thing to do that suddenly makes an impact. That's story telling.<P>Jackson: This is Nuremburg really. That is the obvious influence for all this stuff. That sort of imagery is so potent and it is usefull to dip into those historical references just to press buttons in people.<P>Boyens: I loved that performance from Brad Dourif just showing that Wormtongue was a man once - what has he done - what has he unleashed?<P>H.C.<p>[ 7:35 PM January 17, 2004: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Jjudvven]

Ah... Thanks for clearing that up. I've wondered since the first time I saw the movie why Worm cries in that scene. That makes sense.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I have often wondered that, and was about to ask myself. Thanks all you guys/girls for help! Your the greatest!

[The Only Real Estel]

HC: You beat me to the Dourif quote .

[Encaitare]

While I don't think that he was necessarily sorry, I do think he was frightened a bit by what he had allowed to happen. Not repentant, but kinda like, "Oh crap! This is getting serious!" as Silmiel of Imladris and HC suggested. Yes, I am a Grima-lover and -pitier, because this is a point of no return for him. I like to think that he's crying because it seems Eowyn is going to die. He doesn't care a pin for anyone else in Rohan, but he does care for her. Whether this is really the reason or not, I don't know.

Note to Knight of Gondor: I don't think that he's completely without good anymore. He did say in the Shire how Saruman made him kill Lotho, and we can safely assume (in fact, Saruman says, "Yes, you always do what Sharkey tells you, don't you, Worm?") that he's just a minion of the wizard, too weak to resist him.

I also agree with Morima. Even though we don't know a lot about Grima's past, it seems that he had a really lousy life. I like the idea that Eowyn saw him as a child and in her innocence was kind to him, but then things changed between them as he became a dark agent and more than a tad lusty. Or loving. Or whatever it is in their twisted little relationship.

Mariska makes a great point, but I again, I don't consider him pure evil. A bad dude, certainly, but not wholly evil.

yay for adding to ancient threads!

[Lady Gamgee]

I find Grima very disturbing. I noticed the tear too ... and although I feel he felt some regret, I think he was scared of the entire situation and what was happening. I believe at that moment he realized the seriousness of the situation & in some way wished he hadn't been a puppet of Saruman's. I pity him to some extent, and believe he had some kind of twisted love for Eowyn, but he didn't have to allow Saruman to get that kind of hold on him. Yes, Saruman is very persuasive & intimidating, and maybe Grima felt he had no choice. But he did have a choice ... and it was his own lack of courage that made him fall under Saruman's "spell."

[Kitanna]

I saw that tear when I first watched TTT way back in the theater. I always figured it was because Grima realized just how strong and destructive Saruman really was and for a moment he felt remorse. I mean in the book Gandalf says at one point Grima wasn't always so evil and his council to Theoden wasn't always corrupt. So I think for one brief moment Grima had his real human emotion surface.

[Morsul the Dark]

I think it was the beggining of a mental breakdown he did not regret betraying Rohan but he did not want to destroy it maybe rule it but not destroy it He relized he was in far deeper than he had known and that was what he regretted

I have been confused by Grima crying, there was an article in the Dominion Post (Newspaper of Middle Earth) where Brad Douriff said he played Grima in that scene as suddenly realising his actions would result in the destruction of most of the surviving humans and lead to the victory of Saruman, a last vestage of his humanity and sorrow for what he had just done and what would happen.

Then later I read / heard on the EE that this was joy at a job well done and Grima was in awe of the massive army.

IT seems as if there are several stories out there, each contradicting the other, possibly to inspire debate or just to screw with the minds of people like us!

[The Only Real Estel]

I think that Grima was crying because he never fully realized what he'd done. He may have been thinking that he was in it for Eowyn & hadn't paid much attention to anything else. Now all of a sudden he sees an army of 10,000 Uruk-Hai that are going to wipe out every sign of life in Rohan (other than Eowyn, who he's probably not thinking much about at this point). Every man, woman, child-even every hut, home, & hall-I don't think he ever quite realized the ramifications of his role in all this. Now he suddenly sees that he's mostly responsible for the slaughter of thousands of people. He's in shock & disbelief, feeling a rare moment of sorrow over what he's done, & he sheds a tear of remorse over the horrible deaths that he's condemned Rohan to.

[Encaitare]

Very well said. I agree; it's a lot for one man to bear.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have been confused by Grima crying, there was an article in the Dominion Post (Newspaper of Middle Earth) where Brad Douriff said he played Grima in that scene as suddenly realising his actions would result in the destruction of most of the surviving humans and lead to the victory of Saruman, a last vestage of his humanity and sorrow for what he had just done and what would happen.

Then later I read / heard on the EE that this was joy at a job well done and Grima was in awe of the massive army.

I think that the latter meaning was given by Philippa Boyens or one of the other scriptwriters. Interesting that the scriptwriters and the actor should ascribe different meanings to the tear. I wonder who's idea it was that he should shed the tear? Personally, I would go with the actor since it's his role - and his tear.