** Fall of Gondolin Section 3 Structure**

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil But if Maeglin had already given the information to the Orcs, how could he possibly believe that he could hide it from Morgoth? Surely the Orcs would tell him.

This is a logical conclusion, but the characters do not have to act logically in the story. I believe that you have pointed out that before.

Originally posted by Aiwendil
In light of this and the possibility of removing the bulk of the episode, I am really very much tempted to delete the whole thing and replace it with a suitably ambiguous ToY-style statement that agrees fully with the ToY, allowing even for the possibility that Sauron was the captor.

Wow, I'm not really sure about this. Can you work up the text in our version to see how it stands before I make a judgement on this. I believe that we can do it just by simply removing the mention of Maeglin extra things to the Orcs, than doing some whole modification of the text, but I'm looking foward to seeing how you would deal with your suggestion.

[Findegil]

Okay if my posted created 2.5 I will try again to do your Version 2:

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt{, knowing him to be a man of the Gondolindrim}. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. [Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and] {But} evil came into the heart of Maeglin, and he said to his captors: "Know then that I am Maeglin son of Eöl who had to wife Aredhel sister of Turgon king of the Gondolindrim." But they said: "What is that to us?" And Maeglin answered: "Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear." Then the Orcs stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and Maeglin told them {of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; }of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon{ he spake}, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment{, of the engines of war and the venomous fires}.

§ 38 Then the Orcs were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of Morgoth; but Maeglin catching at a straw said: "Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?"

§ 39 Now this seemed good to the Orcs, and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. ...

In this version Meaglin tells only things that are to be expected for a community of Elves in such a situation as Gondolin was in. So what he told to the orks would not be of any value to Morgoth. Did the Gondolindrim know that Morgoth searched for Gondolin in special? If not we can imagin Maeglin to try and tell the orcs not to search further beause they would be in danger near to the city and to let him go because the Gondolindrim would search for him and find them. In addition he had in this Version not even told the place of Gondolin to the Orcs, so he might hope, to win his life with this information from Morgoth.

Your version 3 is also easly done so her it goes:

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there, {and they would do ... this seemed good to the Orcs,} and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. ...

But as Meadhros, I am very interested to see how you would deal with your Version 4.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

My apologies for the delay in responding.

What I had in mind for 4 was merely something like this:

<Q30 On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin> {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was {taken by some of the Orcs prowling there, and they would do ... this seemed good to the Orcs,} <TY captured by spies of Melkor> and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread. ...

That is, simply cut out the whole episode and replace it with the statement of his capture from the Tale of Years. This has the virtue that it cannot be taken as contradicting the Tale of Years, and it makes the Sauron explanation still possible.

A purely logistical aside: I see that both Maedhros and Findegil are using square brackets for any text not from FoG that is intended for use in the new version. Is there some reason that the angular brackets have been abandoned? Personally, I'd prefer to stick to the original convention: <X text> means text inserted from source X and [text] means a word from the base text that is normalized via a routine substitution - such as [Melkor] for original Melko.

Sorry to sound picky about this, but I think creating a clear and consistent system is worth it. The textual situation is complex as it is!

[Maédhros]

Posted by Aiwnedil
That is, simply cut out the whole episode and replace it with the statement of his capture from the Tale of Years. This has the virtue that it cannot be taken as contradicting the Tale of Years, and it makes the Sauron explanation still possible.

Hmmmmm. I'm not sure if we cannot acomplish that by using some of Findegil's previous suggestions. Let me digest this for a moment.

Posted by Aiwendil
A purely logistical aside: I see that both Maedhros and Findegil are using square brackets for any text not from FoG that is intended for use in the new version. Is there some reason that the angular brackets have been abandoned? Personally, I'd prefer to stick to the original convention: <X text> means text inserted from source X and [text] means a word from the base text that is normalized via a routine substitution - such as [Melkor] for original Melko.

As a matter of fact, yes there is. When I posted for the first time in the private forum, a previous version of the FOG, I noticed that the <> brackets hindered me from posting it, so I changed them. Because of that, I used the [] brackets and disregarded the <> brackets.
We could always use the <> brackets now, I guess.

[Mister Underhill]

Just a quick note on the technical issue: <> brackets are used to wrap html tags, which is why they may cause problems. You can see an example in Maedhros's cut-and-paste. Without the ubb bold tags inserted around the "X" in Aiwendil's original post, the angular brackets were interpreted as an html tag and disappeared.

If you want to ensure that there will be no inadvertent posting problems, it's probably wiser to use a different convention.

[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

Ah. I see what you mean, Mister Underhill. I guess this has become a problem since the move to the new board.

We should probably come up with a different convention, but not just the square brackets used for normalization. Maybe |X text| for text inserted from source X? Or something else.

Another quick technical point - I recall recently being unable to underline text. I thought that this was and in square brackets. But - bold - it appears not to be.

[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Mister Underhill]

UBB doesn't support underlining -- though with html allowed, you could use the &lt; u &gt; &lt; /u &gt; html tags to &lt;u&gt;underline&lt;/u&gt;.

However, researching further, I found that I can turn html off in this and the members-only forum. You won't be able to underline, but you will be able to use &lt;&gt; brackets with impunity.

What do you say?

[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

Hmm. Maybe it would be best to turn HTML off. Our original conventions used underlining only for material inserted for grammatical reasons. This could be subsumed under the square brackets used for normalization.

Of course I suppose square brackets are as likely to cause trouble in UBB as angular ones are in HTML. But we've gotten by with them so far.

[Mister Underhill]

UBB tags should be far less troublesome -- there's only a handful of them and they're all known. Of course, I can also turn the UBB codes off, but then you won't be able to quote, bold, link, and so on.

I'll turn the html off for now and you can just let me know if you want to fiddle with it one way or the other.

[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Mister Underhill]

&lt;u&gt;Testing&lt;/u&gt;.

Okay, as you can see, html is off and you should be good to go.

Although interestingly, as you can see above, it's not "retroactive". I think you could clear up problems in old posts just by editing and reposting that way. I'll try it on my underlined text above...

...and success. If you have problems with old posts with disappearing &lt;&gt; brackets, just hit the "Edit" icon, then immediately repost by clicking "Edit Post".

And that's enough technical jibber-jabber.

[ November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

Well we've all had some time to digest the various options.

Maedhros, have you come up with a more conservative edit to accomplish choice 4?

Does anyone have an opinion concerning choice 4?

[Findegil]

I must say that I am at a lose in the moment.
On the one hand I would like to have as much detail as possible and would therefore like my second version 2 best.
But your version 4 has the merrit to be unspecific and in accordance with ToY. And a second argument for version 4 is that no one could have reproted what was said between Meaglin and the orks. That he was brought to Angband could be an information later added by some slaves who were in prison there. So the deatils from the talk of Meaglin with the orks are at best guess from some later scribe.

So in the ende, it is version 4 for me. We will take out some nice but in a way unknowable details.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Possible 4 part.

Originally posted by Aiwendil
4. Remove the whole passage with the Orcs, replacing it with a sentence of summary from ToY or some other source. This has the virtue of avoiding the problem altogether. It also has the virtue that it does not involve a potential contradiction with ToY (with "spies" or with "Sauron"). It has the disadvantage that it involves the removal of a lot of text.

From Tale of Years

509 Maeglin captured by spies of Melkor (Sauron?).

§ 37 [On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the {Orcs} [spies of Melkor] prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt, knowing him to be a man of the Gondolindrim. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. [Maeglin was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and] {But} evil came into the heart of Maeglin, and he said to his captors: “Know then that I am Maeglin son of Eöl who had to wife Aredhel sister of Turgon king of the Gondolindrim.” {But they said: “What is that to us?” And Maeglin answered: “Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear.” Then the Orcs stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and Maeglin told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.

§ 38 Then the Orcs were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of Morgoth; but Maeglin catching at a straw said:}“Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?”

§ 39 Now this seemed good to the {Orcs} [them], and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of Morgoth; thither they haled Maeglin with them, and now was he in a sore dread....

In retrospect, this seems as an hybrid between option 3 and 4. I think it has the virtue of being in accordance with TOY and it gives us too the possibility that Sauron could be one of those spies.
It is basically the same as Aiwendil's proposal but with a little more detail.

[Maédhros]

This is something that has troubled me for a long time:
From The Wanderings of Húrin

Yet there were ears that had heard the words that Húrin spoke, and eyes that marked well his gestures; and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the North. Then Morgoth smiled, and knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the Eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the encircling mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.

and we have from
The Tale

[On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin] {Now it so chanced that not long after Maeglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, and} straying in the mountains alone was taken [prisoner] by some of the Orcs prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt,

What does the leaguer of the hills means? Did Maeglin when we went to the Mountains went away from the area of the Vigilance of the Eagles?
How come they didn't notice that Maeglin and Co. had fled Gondolin?
In the tale, I have wondered if Morgoth moved an army from Angband to Gondolin, how come the Eagles didn't give at least a warning to the Gondolindrim?
Is that a problem with our version? Or can an explanation that I don't see can be found to this?

[Findegil]

That is clearly a problem.

Already in The Tale it is said that Meaglin left the protected area, which was forbidden by Turgon. So I don't think that we have a problem with Meaglin being captured with out the Eagles marking it. The Eagles would not spy on the Gondolindrim. Therefore I think they would not report any Elf leaving Gondolin to Turgon.

But an army gathering north of Gondolin to overcome the Echoriad by night would surley be reported.

Possible solutions:
- Since the enemy was fist seen at about midnight we could soupose that the army started to climb the Echoriad at sundown. That would mean that the actual approach would be under the cover of the night and not makred or reported by the eagles.

- The army was equiped with this formidable "mechanical monsters", which were super fast in their movement. So the approach was may be even much faster in the plain. Scenario: The Army was gathered under the cover of the woods of Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion. From their they needed less than half a night to reach and climb the Echoriad. (Morgoth was possibly warned by Meaglin about the eagles and theire whatch.)

May be the gahthering of an army in the area was quite normal about that time. That would mean the report of the Eagles was missinterpreted and was in that way not a proper warning.

Conclussion: We could deal with the problem if we were to write a fan-fic, but I can't see how we can do so expplicit with in given rules. That means we can only do it implicit. That could mean we should add some emphasis on the fast approach of the enemy from the hilltop unto the plain of Gondolin. Or we could use the report given of defeat of the whatcher in the Echoriad to introduce the eagles again. But I am not sure if the result would be good or even worth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

Conclussion: We could deal with the problem if we were to write a fan-fic, but I can't see how we can do so expplicit with in given rules. That means we can only do it implicit. That could mean we should add some emphasis on the fast approach of the enemy from the hilltop unto the plain of Gondolin. Or we could use the report given of defeat of the whatcher in the Echoriad to introduce the eagles again. But I am not sure if the result would be good or even worth.

There does seem to be a potential problem, but I don't see any easy way to fix it. Of course, we could, as you say, invent some explanation in the text. But I think that this is unjustified; if the explanation is really possible, then there's no problem anyway.

I would vote to leave things as they are, then.

So now we have six possible versions of the capture of Maeglin:

1. Leave the text as it is.

2. Alter the encounter with the Orcs so that Maeglin tells them only the location of Gondolin, but the rest of the episode proceeds as in LT, as per Findegil's emendations (November 18, 2003 3:32 P.M.)

2.5. Like 2 but retaining more detail, as per Findegil's emendations (November 13, 2003 4:57 P.M.)

3. Remove the whole business of the Orcs threatening Maeglin; as soon as they capture him, they bring him to Angband, as per Findegil's emendations (November 18, 2003 3:32 P.M.)

3.5. Keep much of the passage but make ambiguous the exact nature of the captors, as per Maedhros's emendations (December 11, 2003 11:05 P.M.)

4. Remove the whole passage with the Orcs, replacing it with a summary from another source, as per my emendations (November 23, 2003 11:36 P.M.)

I realize that this point is somewhat dull and pedantic. But where do people stand with regard to the above options? Lindil, do you have an opinion?

I can't quite make up my mind, myself.

[lindil]

I need to re-read the whole affair, hopefully tonight.

[Findegil]

As said before: I am for version 4.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Well, after pondering this for a while, I would choose option 4 because it would make the appearance of Sauron (which may be doubtful) be more credible than my option.

[Maédhros]

Since Findegil and I have agreed on Aiwendil's option 4, does that means that part 3 of the Fog is actually over or is there something that I'm missing.
lindil or Aiwendil any thoughts and ideas.

[Aiwendil]

After a lot of consideration, I guess I'm for option 4 as well.

Lindil, any thoughts?

As far as I can tell, this will finish up section 3.

[Maédhros]

As I was reading Part 2 of our Fog, I had a change of mind in the following change:

FG-TG-01
{Then Tuor's heart was heavy and Voronwë wept and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.}
In the later story, the urging of Ulmo through Tuor that Turgon prepare an assault on Angband is gone, as should be Tuor's weeping.

The parragraph before this is where Turgon rejects Tuor's (Ulmo's) advice. Although, jallanite does have a point, I don't see why wouldn't Tuor and Voronwë wouldn't be sad if their errand was rejected by Turgon.
What do you think?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:17 AM February 06, 2004: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

[Findegil]

Your are right Meadhros, what ever Ulmo asked Turgon to do, when he rejected it Tuor and Voronwe should be down cast. Thier Arrand had gone wrong and since they trusted in Ulmo and would have know that he would not send them, if there was no good reason for it, they would have expected some evil fruit to spring from Turgons refusal. So I think should restore the sentence.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, Note 31

Other disjointed notes indicate that there was to be a description of Gondolin as seen by Tuor from far off; that Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message of Turgon; that would be explained why there was no Queen of Gondolin; and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that he had known or even seen few women in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbaric women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.

Of all of the additional things that JRRT meant for the Fog, the only one that we have not taken up is the mentioning of why there was no queen in Gondolin. I propose the following to include it:

§ 20 Now Tuor learnt < TO that there was no Queen of Gondolin because the wife of Turgon, Elenwë, was lost long before in the crossing of the Helcaraxë by the host of Fingolfin;> [this and] many [other] things in those realms [were] taught by Voronwë whom he loved, and who loved him exceeding greatly in return; or else was he instructed by the skilled men of the city and the wise men of the king.

Looking foward for your responses.

[Maédhros]

I wonder if we could use this:
From the Shibboleth of Fëanor

She perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons. He had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save her and his daughter Itaril, whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. Itaril he saved; but the body of Elenwë was covered in fallen ice

Is it better to use this in this part or better to use it in the respective chapter when the host of Fingolfin was crossing the Helcaraxë.
How about this:

§ 20 Now Tuor learnt < TO that there was no Queen of Gondolin because the wife of Turgon, Elenwë, was lost long before in the crossing of the Helcaraxë by the host of Fingolfin, <SF [where Turgon] had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save her and his daughter {Itaril} [Idril], whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. {Itaril} [Idril] he saved; but the body of Elenwë was covered in fallen ice; thereafter [Turgon was] unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons.>> [This and] many [other] things in those realms [were] taught by Voronwë whom he loved, and who loved him exceeding greatly in return; or else was he instructed by the skilled men of the city and the wise men of the king.

[Aiwendil]

I like the idea of that revision, but the first sentence comes across as somewhat clumsy.

Is it really necessary to include the whole story, even if in a very compressed form? I think we could get away with a quicker mention. How about:

Now Tuor learnt <TO [that] there was no queen of Gondolin[,]> <SF [for Elenwe Turgon's wife] perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Feanor and his sons.> [This and] many [other] things [were] taught [to him] by Voronwe . . .

As for the weeping: I guess I was originally a little overzealous in emending the transition. I suppose that FG-TG-01 can be eliminated.

[Maédhros]

With your change, I'm hoping that the detailed version will be told in the appropiate chapter.
I'm ok with it though.

[Maédhros]

Now FG-TG-01 becomes:

But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.

and FG-TG-02.5 now becomes:

Now Tuor learnt <TO [that] there was no queen of Gondolin[,]> <SF [for Elenwë Turgon's wife] perished in the crossing of the Ice; and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fëanor and his sons.> [This and] many [other] things [were] taught [to him] by Voronwë whom he loved, and who loved him exceeding greatly in return; or else was he instructed by the skilled men of the city and the wise men of the king. Wherefore he became a man far mightier than aforetime and wisdom was in his counsel; and many things became clear to him that were unclear before, and many things known that are still unknown to mortal Men. There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and {how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to} its building and adornment {whereat folk travailed yet} FG-TG-02.5; of the delving of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way of Escape
This was to include the mention of why there was no Queen in Gondolin from UT: Later Tuor note 31. I think this keeps the meaning relatively intact while excising the outdated bits.

[Aiwendil]

I would imagine we could insert the detailed version in the Flight of the Noldor.

[Findegil]

I agree upon both passages.

And I also see an addition to the flight of the Noldor with the full story of Elenwë's death.

Respectfully
Findegil