Gollum: poetic justice and shadow

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here’s the gist of a discussion that took place in the chat this afternoon (CET)between Shadowfax (topic suggestion), Miriel, and myself. (Unfortunately, the names haven't been included in the process of posting!) Before it began, Miriel told me of an earlier discussion on the fate of Frodo:

<Miriel> it was about whether Frodo really had to leave ME or whether he could have been healed and stayed
<Estelyn> which conclusion did you reach?
<Miriel> we never quite reached a conclusion
<Miriel> we were wondering if he had been hurt too profoundly or if he had outgrown ME, or if a 'hot shire chick' would made it more possible for him to stay
(Perhaps those who were there can share more details of that discussion.)

Then we began a new discussion:

<Shadowfax> does the fate of Gollum demonstrate poetic justice?
<Estelyn> You mean, did he have to die to atone for his "sins"?
<Miriel> Gollum. One of the most diverse characters in the whole of LotR
<Estelyn> Explain what you're thinking of with "poetic justice"
<Shadowfax> In the way that I view it, Gollum attempted to abet the Fellowship with his malicious greed
<Estelyn> abet?
<Shadowfax> hold back in progress, you know, aiders and abettors
<Estelyn> Do you think he was interested in the Fellowship or just the ringbearer? <Shadowfax> The ring. "He loved and hated the Ring as he loved and hated himself"
<Shadowfax> He was devious and treacherous in his plot to steal it
<Miriel> Gollum is really one of the most tragic characters in the story, isn't he?
<Shadowfax> the trap in Shelob's tunnels, the treachery at Mount Doom
<Shadowfax> yes. He's the antithesis of Frodo
<Shadowfax> Frodo is good, caring, smart but not especially shrewd
<Estelyn> Would you call Gollum tragic?
<Shadowfax> Gollum is sly, wicked, etc.
<Miriel> yes
<Estelyn> He's a bad guy, more so than tragic
<Shadowfax> Yes
<Shadowfax> He's was pretty doomed from the start
<Miriel> Gollum nearly reaches a point of redemption a few times
<Estelyn> Tragic seems to me to be more a good guy trying to do the right thing but it goes wrong
<Shadowfax> killing Deagol to possess the Ring cursed him
<Estelyn> So he was never really good......
<Shadowfax> in my opinion, anyway
<Miriel> he's more ambivalent than just being a bad guy - weak yes, inherently evil, I don't know
<Shadowfax> His multiple personalities make for interesting discussion matter
<Miriel> I don't think tragic is restricted to good guys
<Estelyn> "Inherent" I don't know, but he killed before even touching the ring!
<Estelyn> I mean, others had closer contact and didn't get bad!
<Shadowfax> Tragic, possibly, in the sense that he was attempting to tear apart what was right and good
<Miriel> others were stronger, yes
<Shadowfax> Frodo for example, and Bilbo
<Shadowfax> of course, Bilbo didn't know what he had
<Miriel> I mean, it's not that Gollum is my first choice of best friend either, but I feel sorry for him, too
<Estelyn> He might have had a chance to turn around, like Boromir did in the end.
<Shadowfax> yes, that's a good comparison
<Miriel> and there is the bit in Cirith Ungol, where he reaches out to pet Frodo, and Sam mistakes it, that breaks my heart
<Estelyn> True, Miri, there are tragic moments in Gollum, but at the end, evil wins!
<Shadowfax> the battle inside Gollum is the battle between Smeagol and Gollum
<Miriel> But without evil winning in that case, EVIL would have won, much worse
<Estelyn> With Gollum, I don't think his death was poetic justice - it was the only thing that could have happened - inevitable!
<Shadowfax> he was spiraling toward a timely end, then?
<Shadowfax> untimely for Gollum, timely for Frodo
<Estelyn> How could Gollum have survived without the ring if Frodo had destroyed it?
<Miriel> very badly...
<Shadowfax> very good point
<Estelyn> After that many years, his fate was bound with it!
<Estelyn> But I agree, Shadow - he was the "shadow" side of Frodo, the negative side that was needed to complete the job!
<Miriel> he was. and when you see what the ring did to people who only had it for a short time, there really wasn't much hope for any cure for Gollum
<Estelyn> See, Frodo couldn't do it by himself - he needed the help of Gollum
<Miriel> true
<Estelyn> = the energy the negative side gives!
<Estelyn> There's some great psychology in there!
<Shadowfax> Which is why pity steadied Bilbo's hand and spared Gollum
<Estelyn> From good came good
<Miriel> indeed
<Shadowfax> opposites attract
<Shadowfax> in more ways than one
<Estelyn> and opposites belong to us, both sides!
<Estelyn> I need my "Shadow"!
<Estelyn> Without shadow, no profile!
<Shadowfax> darkness and light blend to make a prolific spectrum
<Estelyn> Yes!
<Estelyn> And Frodo didn't *have* to destroy the ring - he only had to bring it there - that was his part
<Estelyn> Eru , fate or whatever you want to call it knew that he could do no more!
<Miriel> and without his shadow, Frodo couldn't really stay in ME (tying back to this morning's discussions)?
<Shadowfax> brilliant deduction!
<Estelyn> Wow, Miri!
<Miriel> [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
<Estelyn> I'm flabbergasted!!! that was absolutely brilliant!!!!!
<Shadowfax> quite so
<Estelyn> I'm absolutely amazed at where this brief discussion got us!!!
<Shadowfax> astounding!

(PS – Shadowfax is an outstanding example of a young teenager who uses her brain – my hat’s off to her for a great discussion!!)

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]