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Old 04-02-2007, 02:59 PM   #1
davem
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'Pre-baptised'

So I was thinking. CS Lewis once said that his intention in the Narnia books was to 'pre-baptise' children's imaginations - they would first read the Narnia books, & when they later encountered Christianity they would be in some way prepared for what they would encounter in the Christian story. What he meant, I think, was that Jesus would remind them of Aslan & so he wouldn't seem so 'strange' & unfamiliar to them. Perhaps he also meant that the Narnia stories would create a 'longing' in them for a 'bigger' story.

Now, was there anything that 'pre-baptised' you for Middle-earth?

For me, believe it or not, it was a Monty Python sketch. I was about 12 or 13 years old & I had flicked across onto BBC1 & Python was on. There was a panning shot of a bleak Icelandic landscape & a voice intoned the following:

Quote:
"Erik Njorl, son of Frothgar, leaves his home to seek Hangar the Elder at the home of Thorvald Nlodvisson, the son of Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce ... "
Now, up to then, I'd never come across the Eddas or thee Sagas, & this was totally strange to me, yet at the same time it awakened a desire in me that was fulfilled three or four years later when I discovered The Hobbit & LotR. I went on to read the Eddas, the Sagas, Beowulf, The Mabinogion, Kalevala - & many of the other works that inspired Tolkien himself, but looking back on it, it was those Pythons that awoke the desire for Middle-earth. Of course the sketch was meant to gently mock Saga literature, but even in that form it touched me on a very deep level.

What was it for you? Was there something that made you realise there was something you were looking for - some 'gap' that you hadn't been aware of up till then - & suddenly, when you found Middle-earth, you realised 'That's what it reminded me of!'
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Old 04-02-2007, 06:23 PM   #2
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Probably for me, it was all the Sword and Sorcery books I had read back in Jr. High. Conan, Fahfred and the Grey Mouser, Elric, Kull of Valusia. I devoured those books.
But they were all short stories and I wanted to immerse myself in something a bit grander in scale.
Then, in my Junior year of High School, a buddy of mine told me about LoTR.
And then, there was no looking back.
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Old 04-02-2007, 08:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Now, was there anything that 'pre-baptised' you for Middle-earth?

For me, believe it or not, it was a Monty Python sketch. . . .

What was it for you? Was there something that made you realise there was something you were looking for - some 'gap' that you hadn't been aware of up till then - & suddenly, when you found Middle-earth, you realised 'That's what it reminded me of!'
Funny you should mention the Python sketch, davem, as I often instinctively associate Balin and Dwalin, Kili and Fili, and Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin and Gloin with that sketch, to say nothing of Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin. To be honest, I'm not sure which came first in my 'baptism, Tolkien or Python. Certainly, the 'gap' in this picture of the viking headpiece absolutely created a horns of dilemma about the origins of northern humour. To be honest, if only Cleese had had a beard, I think my image of dwarven women would have been secured.

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Old 04-02-2007, 10:37 PM   #4
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Um... does anyone else see Legolas in that picture?

I realise it's totally offtopic, but my first thought was that something had photoshopped movie-Legolas into that Viking...

Anyways...

Ironically enough, if anything pre-baptised me for the Lord of the Rings, it was those selfsame Chronicle of Narnia of which you speak.
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:26 PM   #5
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Strange place and strange names, and an old apple tree.

Strangly I was also Pre-baptised by the Chronicles of Narnia, along with Thor the God of Thunder (Marvel Comics), I was in a play at school (1970) as Fili and the year after started to read about The Saxons and Vikings I went on to read about more Norse and Celtic mythology after reading Lord of the Rings. One of the other set of books I read was the John Carter Mars series with it's strange names of Barsoom and Tars Tarkus, however it was Narnia that set the joy in my heart.

P.S Did Erik ever find Hangar the Elder?


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Old 04-03-2007, 01:28 AM   #6
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The 'pre-baptism' idea is also found in Niggle (Niggle's Parish is 'the best introduction to the Mountains'). I wonder if Tolkien & Lewis were trying to 'pre-baptise' readers into the same thing, though?)

What interests me re the Python sketch is that it is basically a list of strange (though evocative) names - there isn't much of a 'story' there. Except....

There is - the names themselves imply great events: Gudleif, half brother of Thorgier, the priest of Ljosa water, who took to wife Thurunn, the mother of Thorkel Braggart, the slayer of Cudround the powerful, who knew Howal, son of Geernon, son of Erik from Valdalesc, son of Arval Gristlebeard, son of Harken, who killed Bjortguaard in Sochnadale in Norway over Cudreed, daughter of Thorkel Long, the son of Kettle-Trout, the half son of Harviyoun Half-troll, father of Ingbare the Brave, who with Isenbert of Gottenberg the daughter of Hangbard the Fierce ...

Where was Ljosa water? How come Harviyoun a 'half-troll'? This 'list of names' - didn't one critic describe The Sil as an 'Elvish telephone directory? - is fascinating in itself, without knowing anything more of the story.

BTW a friend has mentioned that it may have been Terry Jones, himself something of a medievalist, & Tolkien fan (he recorded the audio books of Tolkien's Gawain, Pearl & Sir Orfeo) who was responsible for that particular sketch. And I think I'm right in saying that Jones was responsible for the 'Python' movie Erik the Viking.

Quote:
P.S Did Erik ever find Hangar the Elder?
I always wondered that too. I remember feeling very disappointed when they went off to do 'something completely different' at that point...

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Old 04-03-2007, 06:14 AM   #7
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What a fun topic, davem! There's another Tolkien reference to something similar in Smith of Wootton Major - the fairy queen on the Great Cake:
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Better a little doll, maybe, than no memory of Faery at all. For some the only glimpse. For some the awaking.
If anything in particular paved the way for LotR for me, it was probably the reading of fairy tales as a child. After all, many of them are short story versions of quests, and there are dragons, talking animals, kings and queens, magical items - and fairies! I read a lot of "advanced" fairy tales after the usual assortment of Grimm's etc. - international or literary stories that took me away from the familiar world of folk tales.

What also prepared me for an epic tale of this magnitude was the fact that I began reading huge historical novels in my early teens. LotR does read like an historical story, and anyone who has already read War and Peace can't be fazed by a mere 1000 pages or so... Of course, I read LotR at a later age than many others here, and 'The Council of Elrond' was fascinating, not boring to me!
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:46 AM   #8
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I'm thinking that it was due to an interest in mythology. Can remember reading (and recently purchased for my kids), D'Aulaires Book of Greek Myths, which is an oversized books filled with stories of Zeus, Heracles and other gods, demigods and heroes of old. Of course I branched into the Norse myths with hammered Thor and all, and drank up anything on the subject that was available in our local school library, which was pretty small. Note that the librarian made sure that you were able to read the books that you requested, as we'd hate to have children try and read beyond their expected grade level, now would we?

Can't discount the water that came from motion pictures that featured Harry Harryhausen's work, such as Jason and the Argonauts and the Sinbad flicks.

Once the 1980's hit with D&D, AD&D and the various fantasy movies (The Sword and the Sorcerer, Ladyhawke, Krull and Hawk the Slayer), if not already, I was then drowned.

Hmm, but for the presence of damsels in distress, would I now be reading the sports pages?
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:50 PM   #9
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Ooh! Fun thread.

Fairy tales definitely paved the way for my LOTR experience.

Actually I watched the Hobbit and ROTK cartoons when I was little but I never made the connection. So when I picked up the books I was constantly saying, "Oh my gosh! This is the same as those movies!!!"

B/c of that the movies are still close to my heart even though they are NOT how I imagine Tolkien's wonderful world to be.

Now someone is going to thwack me over the head for bringing up the cartoons. haha. Oh well
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Old 04-03-2007, 01:43 PM   #10
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I was set up for it by being born into my family - they like telling tales of this and that and the Boggart loomed large all the time.

As a child my favourites were Rupert the Bear (I have just retrieved all those old annuals going back to the 1940s with the lovely pictures) and his friends Algy the Pug, TigerLily, Podgy Pig and most of all that humanised bundle of firewood, Raggety! I must, as a result, be one of the only people in the whole world to enjoy Paul McCartney's Frog Chorus with accompanying Rupert video Then I loved Brer Rabbit too, and the tales of him getting stuck to the Tar Baby, and Alice In Wonderland (my book had a lurid, technicolor Alice and she was very cool indeed), which my dad refused to read to me because he thought it was "Silly" (yet talking bears in checked trousers are not?). There were also the usual fairy tales, and Richard Scarry picture books, and all manner of mad things, like my mum reading me Goblin Market.

Then of course there was TV with things like the very odd Noggin The Nog, Ivor The Engine (all them Welsh dragons), Rentaghost, Catweazle, Worzel Gummidge, etc.

The 70s were a good time to be a kid, everything was slightly crazed, psychedelic, multi-coloured and fantastical. Even toys were mad - I mean, Space Hoppers?! And what about Space Dust? Then you'd get your brother blasting out Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd from his room. And your dad thought nothing of donning a paisley cravat and wallpapering your bedroom in purple and peacock blue paisley wallpaper (this actually gave me nightmares).

After all of that, Hobbits were quite normal really.
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:26 PM   #11
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Its odd, but for me, its almost as if I was yearning for Middle-earth before I even knew Middle-earth existed. Or at least as if, on some level, what Tolkien created was what I desired - not Beowulf or the Sagas, or the Kalevala or the Eddas - but what Tolkien himself created from those sources. As if someone or something was tapping me on the shoulder to change the TV channel that night, catch that Python episode, so that I'd become conscious of that 'need' I had felt without even knowing it was there. Because it was Middle-earth I was looking for - the sources never touched me in the same way when I did finally read them. No, it was Middle-earth itself that I wanted & only Middle-earth.

But what if Tolkien hadn't created M-e? What if I hadn't been able to find it because Tolkien had never brought it into existence - would I still be looking for it? Or would I have just 'made do' with the 'glimpses' I found in the Sagas & books of fairy stories?
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:16 PM   #12
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Tolkien

The Ralph Bakshi cartoon when I was younger, if that counts :/
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Old 04-04-2007, 11:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Its odd, but for me, its almost as if I was yearning for Middle-earth before I even knew Middle-earth existed. Or at least as if, on some level, what Tolkien created was what I desired - not Beowulf or the Sagas, or the Kalevala or the Eddas - but what Tolkien himself created from those sources. As if someone or something was tapping me on the shoulder to change the TV channel that night, catch that Python episode, so that I'd become conscious of that 'need' I had felt without even knowing it was there. Because it was Middle-earth I was looking for - the sources never touched me in the same way when I did finally read them. No, it was Middle-earth itself that I wanted & only Middle-earth.
It may be of interest to define the need that ME fills. Is it common amongst enthusiasts - why are we here? Or is it something random? Guess this will be hard to explore as we don't have easy access to those that have read LotR yet did not get on the bus.

Anyone want to take a turn on the couch?


Quote:
But what if Tolkien hadn't created M-e? What if I hadn't been able to find it because Tolkien had never brought it into existence - would I still be looking for it? Or would I have just 'made do' with the 'glimpses' I found in the Sagas & books of fairy stories?
It's been said that if the gorilla did not exist that we would have created it. Likewise, eventually someone would have put forth the theory of General Relativity. Middle Earth would have been/would be created as well (i.e. by Robert Jordan of WoT fame perhaps? ). You see this Middle Earth and think it 'good,' yet have not read the version created by the doubleplusgood Tolkien using the word processors invented in 1902 (in another timeline). Reading that one, you would think that this version that we currently have leaves you feeling a bit empty.


Quote:
As if someone or something was tapping me on the shoulder to change the TV channel that night...
Busted! Sorry...blame it on bad time machine calibration and a local negative reality inversion.
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Old 04-04-2007, 11:33 AM   #14
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Where was Ljosa water?
It is in north-east Iceland, and pretty it is too.
Thorgeir Ljosvetningagodi aka Ljosa water priest, was cool. By meditating under a blanket like that, Iceland's conversion took place peacefully, with no evangelical bloodshed, unlike the rest of the Nordic region.


But I am most obliged to you. I thought I'd seen every Python sketch ever but this Viking one passed me by completely. Of course, silly Terry, they never wore horned helmets.....The rest is pretty authentic, however.....
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Old 04-04-2007, 12:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Lalaith
It is in north-east Iceland, and pretty it is too.
Verily it is very pretty, but I'm not sure its as pretty in reality as it was 'mysterious' when it was just a name in my head, like Cuivienen....

That's the thing about strange names - Ljosa Water, Cuivienen, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Magnificent - every name implies a story - what does 'Ljosa' mean? Why is the mountain 'lonely'? But sometimes the mystery is more attractive than the solution....
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Old 04-04-2007, 01:24 PM   #16
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Guess good old Romanian fairy stories might have pre-baptised me for Tolkien's work, and perhaps other myths and legends from other cultures.
But The Hobbit probably was the first book of its kind that I read.
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Old 04-04-2007, 01:38 PM   #17
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It means lake of light - hope that restores some of the mystery, Davem...
...and I've found a much more mysterious picture for you, too....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkvam/128213508/
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:02 PM   #18
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Verily it is very pretty, but I'm not sure its as pretty in reality as it was 'mysterious' when it was just a name in my head, like Cuivienen....

That's the thing about strange names - Ljosa Water, Cuivienen, the Lonely Mountain, Smaug the Magnificent - every name implies a story - what does 'Ljosa' mean? Why is the mountain 'lonely'? But sometimes the mystery is more attractive than the solution....
C.S.Lewis "On Stories" agrees:

"To be stories at all they must be series of events: but it must be understood that this series—the plot, as we call it—is only really a net whereby to catch something else. The real theme may be, and perhaps usually is, something that has no sequence in it, something other than a process and much more like a state or quality. Giantship, otherness, the desolation of space, are examples that have crossed our path [earlier in the essay]. The titles of some stories illustrate the point very well. The Well at the World's End—can a man write a story to that title? Can he find a series of events following one another in time which will really catch and fix and bring home to us all that we grasp at on merely hearing the six words? Can a man write a story on Atlantis—or is it better to leave the word to work on its own? And I must confess that the net very seldom does succeed in catching the bird."

(For me fairy stories, Howard Pyle, CSL's Narnia and space trilogy, George MacDonald, the Old Testament, retellings of Greek mythology, the Iliad and Odyssey, SciFi including early Heinlein and Poul Anderson, were pre-baptisms for Middle Earth or verce visa. And inoculations against certain other things.)

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Old 04-04-2007, 02:31 PM   #19
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Guess good old Romanian fairy stories might have pre-baptised me for Tolkien's work, and perhaps other myths and legends from other cultures.
But The Hobbit probably was the first book of its kind that I read.
Seconded (only remove the word "Romanian"). But actually, I was pre-baptised the most very closely before reading the Hobbit, it was about year and a half before it, if I remember correctly. These were not books, however, but roleplaying games. Funny enough, I was about 7 or 8 years old at that point. I didn't encounter fantasy literature in any form before that, and on summer holiday, my cousin persuaded us (me, his younger brother and his sister - about 11-15 years old they were at that time, I think - and our parents ) to play a roleplaying game called "Dračí doupě"*. I was fascinated by the elves, orcs and all that stuff... and also, in the game there were hobbits. Not just "halflings" as they are in all other fantasy books and games, but "hobbits". (it would interest me if Tolkien has a trademark on this word, possibly this is why the word "hobbit" does not actually appear anywhere? Also, the out-of-ME halflings appear often quite different from the "true" hobbits. Bleagh. But anyway, in Czech the word is spelled only with one "B", so probably no trademarks applied? ) Uh... what was I saying? Yes, hobbits. You must agree that it is not such a normal word, is it? And so, do you think that I'd overlook a book named "The Hobbit"? Of course not. But it was still a long time after that when I first read the Hobbit, and also I didn't know yet about any "Lord of the Rings" at that moment.

This happened one year later. Next summer after the event described above, I got a Polish board game "Bitwa na Polach Pelennoru" (not necessary to translate, I think). Merely an A3-size hex paper, with seven walls, one field labelled "Citadel", and on the corners of the map three arrows labeled "to Rohan", "to Mines Morgul" and "to Pelangir" (the authors were nuts). But my cousins, when seeing it, swarmed (there were two of them, but the word describes pretty well what they did) around the board and with cries "Pelargir! Mines Morgul!" (well, they had better in spelling than the authors) started to talk about some "Lord of the Rings" I never heard of. It was later then I learned it was some sort of a book (my grandmother, who was working in a library, had the opinion that it's a three-volume book, where the first was named "Lord of the Rings" and the second "Lord of the Tower". How would she name the last one, I don't know. Possibly "Lord of the King"). I didn't do anything about it, though. Until later that year, in autumn, my older cousin (the very same one who forced us to play that RPG) got Iron Crown Enterprises' "Lord of the Rings roleplaying game" as birthday pressent... uh, present. It was in a lovely red box with Angus McBride's picture of Éowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul. I had to have it. So I murdered Deal... oh, no, no, that was another story. My parents just came with that wonderful idea of giving me the LotR roleplaying game as a Christmas present. (Warning: plot details follow) There was a story of some folks from Bree going after a dangerous troll who wandered too close to Bree. But the authors did a wonderful job of describing Tolkien's world and I totally fell in love with it.

So here you go. I think this is what you might call "pre-baptised" in the very sense of the word. I was pre-baptised by the same water, by Tolkien, though it was actually a "fake water" not written by Tolkien. My first reading about ME was not written by Tolkien. Quite unusual, uh? Hope this does not make me a heretic. Well, I think the point is that I read the Hobbit and LotR after that, even if it was not the first.

*A cheaper, less sophisticated Czech version of "Dungeons and Dragons" (even the name means more or less the same). It was shortly after Velvet revolution when some guys learned about D&D in the West and then they came back with an idea of providing our country with something like that - the market wasn't so connected still at that time, so D&D didn't appear here. They made quite a good job with it, and it became No.1 in the Czech RPGing world. Well, not that any RPGing world existed here before. Possibly, if there wasn't a delay with them making 3rd edition of the rules, Dungeons&Dragons would stand no chance on Czech market. Dračí doupě was not a mere clone, actually it was pretty inventive, though less sophisticated (and maybe this was actually why it was so popular), it contained some ideas the D&D makers didn't think of.
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:24 PM   #20
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The Well at the World's End—can a man write a story to that title? Can he find a series of events following one another in time which will really catch and fix and bring home to us all that we grasp at on merely hearing the six words? Can a man write a story on Atlantis—or is it better to leave the word to work on its own? And I must confess that the net very seldom does succeed in catching the bird."
You know, I find the same thing with the cover paintings on fantasy novels - so beautiful, mysterious & evocative...yet when you read the synopsis on the back, or skim the pages, its the usual stuff about 'Dark Lords, hapless heroes, magical talismans' & such. If only the story lived up to the cover.....

(And to be honest, I don't suppose Erik's story would have lived up to that wonderful set up.....
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Old 04-04-2007, 04:06 PM   #21
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Tolkien

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You know, I find the same thing with the cover paintings on fantasy novels - so beautiful, mysterious & evocative...yet when you read the synopsis on the back, or skim the pages, its the usual stuff about 'Dark Lords, hapless heroes, magical talismans' & such. If only the story lived up to the cover.....

(And to be honest, I don't suppose Erik's story would have lived up to that wonderful set up.....
We must have read different fantasy novels . I usually have had the opposite experience: if there's a book that speaks to me, it's despite the cover (and any other illustrations) not because of it. And often in such cases it's the content that's "beautiful, mysterious & evocative"; the pictures fail because they are too (and wrongly) specific. Movies similarly, natch, though it's somewhat easier for a movie: it doesn't need to capture it in a single scene and can take longer to get you used to their vision. Two exceptions: many of Pauline Baynes' illustrations for Narnia seemed just right, and the Shire in the LOTR movies was immediately, and continues to be, very satisfying to me.
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:10 PM   #22
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Actually, when I was nine or so, we went to our Christmas dinner, and my cool-but-wierd D&D-playing uncle (who incidentally, also formed his own grunge rock band, went to Poland for a couple of years, and is just generally interesting...) bought along a LOTR board game.

It kinda ticked me off because everyone else knew the characters and I had only read the Hobbit, wondering why in the world they were trying to destroy the Ring, and who the hell Frodo was. And that spurred me a bit to read about Frodo as all four of my uncles told me a watered-down version of the story.

I started LOTR when I was nine, and only finished it a year later. (Phew!) And of course many years later NOW I know a heap more about Middle-Earth than them. I can still brag about how I know what 'Gondolin' means in three different languages... hehehehe...
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:45 AM   #23
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It means lake of light - hope that restores some of the mystery, Davem...
...and I've found a much more mysterious picture for you, too....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkvam/128213508/
It looks wonderful, & I'd like to go there. Mind you, I've always wanted to visit Iceland (though I might be disappointed when I got there, because I have this 'fantasy' Iceland in my mind). I wonder why its called lake of light?

I spent an hour last night googling away (they can't touch you for it, missus!) & found a couple of pics of the same place, Stetind in Northern Norway. First is a photo:http://earth.boisestate.edu/home/cjn...s/stetind2.jpg
Second is a painting of the same place http://www.artsmia.org/mirror-of-nat...rt_cat=8&lng=2.

I think looking at the first one would make you want to visit Norway. Looking at the second would perhaps make you want to visit Middle-earth - if that makes sense. The first image isn't as 'magical' as the second, because while the first shows a beautiful place, its a place you can get on a plane & visit, while the second image has a power, a terrifying beauty, which makes you catch your breath - the mountain seems not to belong in the world of the foreground of the picture, with its gently rolling waves lapping against the rocks. Its as if the fog had parted & revealed another reality, bigger, more mythic. I think that's what happened to me, all those years back - suddenly, for a moment, in a sketch show of all things, the fog parted & I glimpsed something much bigger, something which I had always, on some level, known was there.
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Old 04-05-2007, 04:57 AM   #24
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The first link, the photo, looks beautiful...just like the Lonely Mountain. The second, Middle-earth one, won't open.
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Old 04-05-2007, 05:46 AM   #25
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The first link, the photo, looks beautiful...just like the Lonely Mountain. The second, Middle-earth one, won't open.
I know - site is slow. Try this - right at bottom of page http://homepage.mac.com/federoncik/f...tidelmale.html
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:08 AM   #26
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Fabulous...yet quite scary.
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Old 04-05-2007, 07:01 AM   #27
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Fabulous...yet quite scary.
That's what I thought at first. Perhaps rather 'awesome', or 'sublime' even. Imagine standing & looking out across the lake into the foggy sky, not knowing the mountain was there. Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.

We can see it in characters like Bilbo & Sam, yearning to see Elves & Mountains. Strange, terrifying things (for a Hobbit), but symbols, as much as anything else, of a larger world.
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Old 04-05-2007, 07:09 AM   #28
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Yes, and also perhaps of the mariners yearning to glimpse Tol Eressea and Valinor.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:09 AM   #29
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That's a bit like the odd feeling I got when we were in Scotland in March. One evening we went for a walk along the cliffs north of Portpatrick and the sun was setting. Across the sea you could see mountains and hills in Ulster, some closer and some more distant, and a really eerie looking tower. This will have been a lighthouse, but from that distance it could have been anything. It was exactly like looking at the tower of Avallone on Tol Eressea, with the distant Valinor further off in the background.

I tried to take photographs but I don't think they have captured the oddness of this scene at all well, and we had to stay and look at it until it disappeared. Very odd indeed, especially as it was so utterly silent apart from the wind and the birds.

Then at night, you can see across an inky black sea just lots of little lights, and several lighthouse beams, with the stars brilliantly bright above.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:06 PM   #30
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Tolkien Awe and the Numinous (Long, I warn you!)

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Fabulous...yet quite scary.
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Originally Posted by davem
That's what I thought at first. Perhaps rather 'awesome', or 'sublime' even. Imagine standing & looking out across the lake into the foggy sky, not knowing the mountain was there. Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.

We can see it in characters like Bilbo & Sam, yearning to see Elves & Mountains. Strange, terrifying things (for a Hobbit), but symbols, as much as anything else, of a larger world.
This discussion is ringing all sorts of bells with me.

As I've thought about what "awe" is, it is clear to me that it (paradoxically, if you like) includes generous doses of what we tend to think of as antithetical ingredients: namely the two you mention in the quotes above —fear/terror and love/desire. You called it a "desire to know more", Davem, and there's something right about that. But it is not a desire to know as our culture desires to know, a Sarumanian desire to subjugate and control and use through our science/knowledge. It is rather a desire to experience, a willingness to be overwhelmed by and caught up in, what we love and fear. "Perfect love casts out fear", or perhaps transforms it into the joy that is awe, but, a love that knows no fear because it does not even respect what is loved is a pretty shallow love. Awestruck love is totally humble when it is not feeling frankly terrified.

I think awe, although it is in my view central to true humanity, is a very dangerous and subversive attitude or emotion for the values of our culture. It is inherently contradictory to the self-sufficient, I'm-as-good-as-you-are, I-demand-my-rights, I-will-not-bow-down, lese-majestic stance so prevalent in our society and so encouraged by our political philosophy. By nature it leads to a kind of worship of what is high above us, while our culture loudly insists there is nothing high above us in that way. We may be permitted to feel awe if we want to or get a kick out of it (there's freedom of religion, after all), but we must not believe, much less say out loud or insist, that it corresponds to anything real, or ought to be felt by everyone. The "fear of the Lord" which "is the beginning of Wisdom" is precisely what the wisdom of our world cannot stand.

(fwiw, it was the culturally voguish debunking of awe that prompted C.S. Lewis to write "The Abolition of Man", his major contention being that such debunking turns us into sub-human "men without chests".)

Someone asked earlier in the thread if Tolkien and Lewis were trying to "pre-baptise" (as they would spell it ) us for the same thing. I think they were. They were both Christians, of course, and believed the Reality they wanted us to respond rightly to is ultimately God in Christ. But much more than most Christians, I think, they saw and loved the fearsome beauty of that Reality, and saw that fearsomeness and beauty wonderfully reflected down through the many levels of creation below the One. And they talked to each other for years about these sorts of things and discussed their writings, including LOTR, in the light of them. In their experience the desire for the Awesome Reality was often wakened through mythology, most definitely including the kind of mythology they aspired to write. The notion of pre-baptism of the imagination was [first?] used by Lewis to describe the effect on him of George MacDonald’s myths. Lewis speaks of "the Numinous", and has Merlin (in That Hideous Strength) speak of even the knowledge of the existence of Numinor and the True West as dangerous knowledge. (Numinor, as the preface makes clear, is Tolkien's Númenor.) Narnia fans may remember the bedragoned Eustace’s encounter with the Lion: “I was terribly afraid of it. You may think that, being a dragon, I could have knocked any lion out easily enough. But it wasn’t that kind of fear. I wasn’t afraid of it eating me, I was just afraid of it--if you can understand.”

Lewis' essay/sermon "The Weight of Glory" (which is one piece of prose I can hardly read without wanting to weep and shout--it has the same effect on me as seeing Saturn through a telescope) is full of this theme. Forgive (/enjoy) the long quote:

[following discussion of Glory as "fame" or "recognition", being acknowledged and accepted into the heart of things] "this brings me to the other sense of glory—glory as brightness, splendour, luminosity. We are to shine as the sun, we are to be given the Morning Star. I think I begin to see what it means. In one way, of course, God has given us the Morning Star already: you can go and enjoy the gift on many fine mornings if you get up early enough. What more, you may ask, do we want? Ah, but we want so much more […] We do not want merely to see beauty, though, God knows, even that is bounty enough. We want something else which can hardly be put into words--to be united with the beauty we see, to pass into it, to receive it into ourselves, to bathe in it, to become part of it. … That is why the poets tell us such lovely falsehoods. They talk as if the west wind could really sweep into a human soul; but it can't. They tell us that "beauty born of murmuring sound" will pass into a human face; but it won't. Or, not yet. For if we take the imagery of Scripture seriously, if we believe that God will one day give us the Morning Star and cause us to put on the splendour of the sun, then we may surmise that both the ancient myths and the modern poetry, so false as history, may be very near the truth as prophecy. At present we are on the outside of the world, the wrong side of the door. We discern the freshness and purity of morning, but they do not make us fresh and pure. We cannot mingle with the splendours we see. But all the leaves of the New Testament are rustling with the rumour that it will not always be so. Some day, God willing, we shall get in. When human souls have become as perfect in voluntary obedience as the inanimate creation is in its lifeless obedience, then they will put on its glory, or rather that greater glory of which Nature is only the first sketch. ... We are summoned to pass in through Nature, beyond her, into that splendour which she fitfully reflects.”

I think Lewis and Tolkien hoped their works might a pre-baptism for that, not of course for Lewis’ words, but for the Reality they believed lay behind them.

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Old 04-05-2007, 01:17 PM   #31
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We must have read different fantasy novels . I usually have had the opposite experience: if there's a book that speaks to me, it's despite the cover (and any other illustrations) not because of it. And often in such cases it's the content that's "beautiful, mysterious & evocative"; the pictures fail because they are too (and wrongly) specific. Movies similarly, natch, though it's somewhat easier for a movie: it doesn't need to capture it in a single scene and can take longer to get you used to their vision. Two exceptions: many of Pauline Baynes' illustrations for Narnia seemed just right, and the Shire in the LOTR movies was immediately, and continues to be, very satisfying to me.
Another case I should have mentioned: Howard Pyle, where the pictures are at least as good as the text.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:29 PM   #32
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Can't help thinking of Simone d'Ardenne's reminiscence, where she said to Tolkien: `You broke the veil, didn't you, and passed through?' and she adds that he `readily admitted' having done so."

It seems she was referring to language, but Tolkien may have understood her question differently. 'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it. There is an awesome realm beyond, & our own smallness is revealed to us by what we are shown. Yet, as Lewis states, it is not a place that is forever denied to us - we are given that glimpse because whatever it is that lies beyond is somewhere we have a right to be - if I understand him. The original glimpse is brief - we may even miss it, but if we are open to what we see the next glimpse may be longer & clearer.

Managed to find a better pic of the painting ('Breaking the Veil' as I shall call it from now on) Hope it works


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Old 04-05-2007, 03:50 PM   #33
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Tolkien Breaking the Veil: the Island

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'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it. There is an awesome realm beyond, & our own smallness is revealed to us by what we are shown. Yet, as Lewis states, it is not a place that is forever denied to us - we are given that glimpse because whatever it is that lies beyond is somewhere we have a right to be - if I understand him. The original glimpse is brief - we may even miss it, but if we are open to what we see the next glimpse may be longer & clearer.

Managed to find a better pic of the painting ('Breaking the Veil' as I shall call it from now on) Hope it works
Another Lewis tie-in: the whole story of his Pilgrim's Regress centers on a boy drawn by ineffable longing to a beautiful Island that he glimpses far in the West. He abandons his native Puritania, with the frowning Landlord's Castle overlooking it from across the river to the east, and travels westward in search of the Island. When he finally stands on the far sea-shore and can see the Island clearly across the waters, he realizes it is the Landlord's Castle seen from the other side, and he travels back around the world to cross the river to get there. A rather Chestertonian conceit grafted onto something like the Breaking-The-Veil vision. (With a lot of undoubtedly clever but often esoteric and obscure allegory and satire grafted onto that. Quite unlike Lewis' other writings.)

(Lewis & Tolkien, I'm pretty sure, would say not that we have a right to be there, but that through the Mercy we may be given that right.)

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Old 04-05-2007, 03:54 PM   #34
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(Lewis & Tolkien, I'm pretty sure, would not say that we have a right to be there, but that through the Mercy we may be given that right.)
Hmmm... well, I'd say it was our birthright, but is ours to accept or reject. But then, I don't share their faith....
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Old 04-05-2007, 07:35 PM   #35
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I think my "pre-baptising" sort of deal for my love of Middle-earth and fantasy worlds in general was the way I used to play when I was younger. Actually, my dad used to play with my brother and I quite often, and there were times when we'd do humongous (at least as I remember them) "set ups" that would spread through our living room or the downstairs room, or sometimes over both. We'd combine all sorts of toys, like Playmobil and Legos and Star Wars action figures, or sometimes Barbie dolls and large super hero figures (Barbie was always taller than the super heroes, though, which I guess might be why I hate it when women feel like they should be with men who are taller than them and when guys get all weird about tall women...well, that and I was taller than all the boys my age until they finally hit their growth spurts in late junior high and high school...but anyway...). My dad would even make things himself to look like various scenery. I'm sure it was all incredibly simple but it was so real to my brother and I back then.

And we'd...have adventures. Those "set ups" became little worlds to me, and I played as a character or characters, as a little Playmobil person or as Johnny Quest or Mara Jade or someone, and I loved being that character in that world. And I guess as we get older our worlds need to get a little more elaborate than Legos and Styrofoam and such.

I suppose that just the way I played as a child is behind my love of fantasy and particularly of such vastness as Middle-earth (and of roleplaying).

That was probably more information about my life than you needed, but it's all memorable stuff....
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:01 AM   #36
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nice thread

For me way early was Tales of Alladin and Sinbad. RE Howard (Conan) a little later... cinema would have to be The 300 Spartans. A total cheese movie (for even back then really), but there I was in the backyard - trashcan lid for a shield and a broom for a spear.....
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:22 AM   #37
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Tolkien Play worlds

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I think my "pre-baptising" sort of deal for my love of Middle-earth and fantasy worlds in general was the way I used to play when I was younger. Actually, my dad used to play with my brother and I quite often, and there were times when we'd do humongous (at least as I remember them) "set ups" that would spread through our living room or the downstairs room, or sometimes over both. We'd combine all sorts of toys,
Right! I suppose most of us were thinking of more literary precursors to ME, but this sort of thing was certainly important for me and probably a good many others. Thank you for bringing it to mind!
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:48 AM   #38
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Tolkien Breaking the Veil?

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Can't help thinking of Simone d'Ardenne's reminiscence, where she said to Tolkien: `You broke the veil, didn't you, and passed through?' and she adds that he `readily admitted' having done so."

It seems she was referring to language, but Tolkien may have understood her question differently. 'Breaking the veil' seems like an apt title for the painting I linked to. Tolkien, one could say, 'broke the veil' & showed us what lies beyond - or at least gave us a glimpse of it.
If you think about it, "breaking" the veil is an odd collocation of words, a kind of mixing of metaphors. "Breaking through the veil" is better, perhaps? But even there you expect more of a solid barrier than a yielding one. Frodo didn't "break through" Shelob's webs, but had to cut his way through. "Parting", or if violence or impatience is needed, "tearing" or "rending" the veil?

The picture, to me, is more of a parting of the veil/clouds: the viewer is, in that sense, passive (though in another sense gloriously participative). If any rending is going on, it is someone else who is doing it.

Actually, you'd already said it that way, Davem:
Quote:
Suddenly the mist parts, just for a moment, & you see that, & then its gone again. Of course, you'd be terrified, yet it would be like seeing a glimpse of another reality. The world would suddenly seem much bigger & much stranger than you had ever thought. And however terrifying the experience had been I suspect your desire to know more would have been stronger.

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Old 04-06-2007, 07:54 AM   #39
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Tolkien Birthright?

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Hmmm... well, I'd say it was our birthright, but is ours to accept or reject. But then, I don't share their faith....
Yes, our birthright, but a birthright we have spurned and lost. The Good News is that it is offered to us again.
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Old 04-06-2007, 05:02 PM   #40
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Sting

There was this old computer game, called Asghan The Dragon Slayer. Basically, it involves a big tough warrior with a big sword (what else?) going around this enemy island killing various baddies to eventually kill his evil uncle, the sorcerer Morghan, who had killed Asghan's father. Although it sounds very generic hack'n'slash (and frankly it is) I enjoyed it a lot as a kid, and now I see it as my first real introduction to the fantasy genre, and also to Middle-Earth itself - looking back on it now, one of Asghan's friends was called 'Capon the hobbit', he drank 'elvish drink' to keep his health up, many of the monsters were called orcs, and here's the big one - the company that made it was called 'Silmarils'

That game was simple and nothing very big, but it made me want to do more with this wonderful, magical world I had found and Tolkien was the real deal that it led to.
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