oldest person in middle earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morgoth Bauglir · 10-27-2006, 05:02 PM

or oldest elf i guess...at the time of the end of the third age.

wouldnt it be galadriel?

mormegil · 10-27-2006, 06:10 PM

I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.

narfforc · 10-28-2006, 12:07 AM

Mormegil is correct, Cirdan took part in the westward journey of the Elves, and was amongst those who searched longest for Elwe. Finarfin being the son of Finwe was born in the Blessed Realm along with his own daughter Galadriel, somewhat later.

Bêthberry · 10-28-2006, 08:15 AM

Right, best to keep it to elves, as factoring in Treebeard and Bombadil raises that other thorny question.

I don't think anyone has ever asked how old Goldberry is. Since she has some power to control the weather, one would think she is belongs to the earlier characters who shaped Arda, although obviously her mother would be older than her. No time travelling confusions here!

mormegil · 10-28-2006, 11:16 AM

How old is Glorfindel?

Laleena · 10-28-2006, 12:34 PM

Glorfindel, I read somewhere, was reincarnated. He died in the wars of Gondolin.
So he must be older than the wars of Gondolin. (don't ask me to do the math, I'm not good at it

)

yavanna II · 11-30-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.

I can't quote, since I don't have a book (it's probably just under my bed or something), but Cirdan has a beard and has very long and white(?) hair. And for Elves to have beards they have to be thousands of years old, right?

Boromir88 · 11-30-2006, 10:46 AM

Yep, Yavanna, Cirdan does have a beard:

Quote:

'Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars...'~The Grey Havens

Those elves that entered into the third (which I believe is the last) life cycle had beards. This would mean that the eldest of the Eldar had beards. On Middle-earth (of the Elves we are told about), I honestly think it's pretty clear Cirdan was the oldest. As Cirdan was one of the first elves to arrive in Middle-earth and he would be the last one to leave:

Quote:

Some he [Osse] persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord.~Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

Quote:

'But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by my grey shores until the last ship sails.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years

Mithalwen · 11-30-2006, 12:00 PM

Just because a Mrs Cirdan isn't mentioned doesn't mean she definitely didn't exist though. Mrs Thranduil isn't mentioned but she must have existed. Since Tolkien says that marriage early in life was the norm for elves, there celarly wasn't the imbalance in the genders as occurred with dwarves - though if you look at the extant elvish geanealogies you would think that the gender imbalance was even greater among elves than the dwarves ..... alas for the unwritten history of women ....

As for kinship - the Valar were unborn yet were still regarded as having siblings who were coeval in spirit. It is not impossible that a similar attitude was taken with the first elves...

Bêthberry · 11-30-2006, 12:52 PM

Just as Yavanna and Manwe had a special relationship separate from Yavanna's relationship with Aule, perhaps Mrs. Cirdan and Celeborn had one also, which would explain her absence from The Grey Havens at the fateful time of the famous departure. I don't think there's any question, though, that a Mrs. Cirdan sported a beard.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder if those blue wizards who went east weren't clothed in female robes. Another reason why their story is untold.

Galadriel · 01-14-2011, 07:29 AM

Arguably Bombadil.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 01-14-2011, 07:36 AM

It cannot be Tom Bombadil.

We only have his ramblings about being the eldest and remembering the first raindrops to support the theory, which is a shaky foundation at best. Also we don't even know what he is. . . if he is a deity does he still count as a person?

At least we know something about Cirdan.

Morthoron · 01-14-2011, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

It cannot be Tom Bombadil.

We only have his ramblings about being the eldest and remembering the first raindrops to support the theory, which is a shaky foundation at best. Also we don't even know what he is. . . if he is a deity does he still count as a person?

At least we know something about Cirdan.

I agree with you, Rune. It would be Cirdan, as defined by "person". We are not altogether sure what Bombadil "is".

Galadriel55 · 01-14-2011, 02:42 PM

Since we don't know who/what "is" Bombadil, we can't really place him anywhere on the timeline. I remember reading somewhere in The Sil that the Ents appeared around the same time as Elves were born, which would make Treebeard one of the oldest (if you count him as a person). Cirdan is definitely the oldest Elf. If we count ainur to be "people", they are older than all the rest, except for Eru.

Galadriel · 01-17-2011, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Since we don't know who/what "is" Bombadil, we can't really place him anywhere on the timeline. I remember reading somewhere in The Sil that the Ents appeared around the same time as Elves were born, which would make Treebeard one of the oldest (if you count him as a person). Cirdan is definitely the oldest Elf. If we count ainur to be "people", they are older than all the rest, except for Eru.

I thought I recall Bombadil implying that he was there before the Ents? If T.B. is a person, then aside from the Ainur and Eru, he'd be the oldest. But...are Ents really 'people'?

10-27-2006, 05:02 PM	#1
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	oldest person in middle earth or oldest elf i guess...at the time of the end of the third age. wouldnt it be galadriel?

10-27-2006, 06:10 PM	#2
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,637	I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight. __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

10-28-2006, 12:07 AM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Mormegil is correct, Cirdan took part in the westward journey of the Elves, and was amongst those who searched longest for Elwe. Finarfin being the son of Finwe was born in the Blessed Realm along with his own daughter Galadriel, somewhat later. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-28-2006, 08:15 AM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,979	Right, best to keep it to elves, as factoring in Treebeard and Bombadil raises that other thorny question. I don't think anyone has ever asked how old Goldberry is. Since she has some power to control the weather, one would think she is belongs to the earlier characters who shaped Arda, although obviously her mother would be older than her. No time travelling confusions here! __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-28-2006, 11:16 AM	#5
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,637	How old is Glorfindel? __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

10-28-2006, 12:34 PM	#6
Laleena Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in Mirkwood riding my horse Posts: 27	Glorfindel, I read somewhere, was reincarnated. He died in the wars of Gondolin. So he must be older than the wars of Gondolin. (don't ask me to do the math, I'm not good at it ) __________________ Sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't wit at all.~ Halt

11-30-2006, 12:00 PM	#9
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	Just because a Mrs Cirdan isn't mentioned doesn't mean she definitely didn't exist though. Mrs Thranduil isn't mentioned but she must have existed. Since Tolkien says that marriage early in life was the norm for elves, there celarly wasn't the imbalance in the genders as occurred with dwarves - though if you look at the extant elvish geanealogies you would think that the gender imbalance was even greater among elves than the dwarves ..... alas for the unwritten history of women .... As for kinship - the Valar were unborn yet were still regarded as having siblings who were coeval in spirit. It is not impossible that a similar attitude was taken with the first elves... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

11-30-2006, 12:52 PM	#10
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,979	Just as Yavanna and Manwe had a special relationship separate from Yavanna's relationship with Aule, perhaps Mrs. Cirdan and Celeborn had one also, which would explain her absence from The Grey Havens at the fateful time of the famous departure. I don't think there's any question, though, that a Mrs. Cirdan sported a beard. Frankly, I sometimes wonder if those blue wizards who went east weren't clothed in female robes. Another reason why their story is untold. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

01-14-2011, 07:29 AM	#11
Galadriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion Posts: 551	Arguably Bombadil. __________________ "Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil

01-14-2011, 02:42 PM	#14
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,314	Since we don't know who/what "is" Bombadil, we can't really place him anywhere on the timeline. I remember reading somewhere in The Sil that the Ents appeared around the same time as Elves were born, which would make Treebeard one of the oldest (if you count him as a person). Cirdan is definitely the oldest Elf. If we count ainur to be "people", they are older than all the rest, except for Eru. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera