Ar-Pharazon and the separation of Valanor

[Mornie Alantie]

I just reread the Silmarilion a little while ago and it says that when Ar-Pharazon landed and Illuvitar split Valanor from the rest of the world that Ar-pharazon and his army that was on land were swollowed up or covered up and would not be seen again until the last battle and the breaking of the world. So at that time he and his army where buried in a new piece of land where Valanor was. So does that mean that they didn't die and that there are still living decendants of them undergroud in a country on the other side of the mortal great sea? and if so, Did they have warrior women in the great armada or do the decendants just spring out of holes in the ground? or are they sleeping until the last battle?

Totally useless subjuct but I thought it would be an interesting advanced question for us Tolkien scholars to boggle our minds over until we rediscover the question of did the balrog have wings? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Phrim]

For reference, here's the passage being referred to:

And all the fleets of the Númenóreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

I don't think Ar-Pharazôn and his army were ever separated from Aman, from the text it seems to me that they were buried within Aman. Regardless of where they are, though, there is nothing to point that Ar-Pharazôn's army founded any sort of strange underground society or the such. There needn't be any descendants or whatnot. The way I read it, the army would be in some sort of stasis until the "Day of Doom".

[burrahobbit]

That's where the Native Americans came from, Mornie Alantie.

[Mornie Alantie]

Yah, My actual oppinion was that they will return at the last battle wether they are dead or not. A lot of references i think say that Dwarves(?) and men that died will return at the last battle. So they may be dead or alive.

Immortallity is not a property of the place, but a characteristic of each race. So Ar-Pharazon and his warriors were buried ann killed.

[alatar]

Got some issues that came from reading this thread:

• Does there exist within Middle Earth in the Third Age (and beyond) the means to salvage artifacts from the ocean floor?

• Had anyone ever considered locating Ar-Pharazon's fleet and seeing what just may be down there? With the number of ships that sunk at that time, the probability of finding 'something' are greatly increased, and so if I had the means, that's were I would start.

• If, after the drowning of Númenor, Meneltarma still at times juts above the waves (the semi-mythical Isle of Meneltarma), wouldn't that mean that, sure, you could maybe catch a glimpse of the Blessed Realm, but even better would be the artifacts that one could recover just below. How high was this peak, meaning how far below the waters would one have to dive?

Or did Eru, in the Breaking, 'turn under' all of these treasures like so much garden soil?

[Alfirin]

I tend to doubt that deep sea salvage is feasible in the third age. If it was, then one could thing of a lot of other "treasures" that could be recovered. (for example you could dive into the Anduin and bring up the "giant" palatir (the one that required four people to move it.) of Osgiliath. Come to think of it Al-phazaron had three palatir with him, incuding the second biggest stone (the one from Amon Sul) so maybe diving that wreck would be useful too (size as I recall does matter with Palantir, the bigger it is the farther you can see with it. ) It a bit of a pity that at least in middle earth there apper to be no "good" intellegent creatures living beneath the sea who will deign contact and limited alliace with the free peoples (as the Eagles and Ravens of the Air at times did)

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

One of the Silmarils, you'd remember, was cast into the ocean. I'd have thought its on Ulmo or Osse's crown now.

... I get it... Ulmo helped the Eldar and Edain defeat Melkor as part of his grand plan to get the Silmaril?!?

"Your plan has finally come to fruitation, my Lord." - Osse
"Well done, young one. You'd played Ol' Melkor to his doom... I'm beginning to doubt your loyalty..." - Ulmo, fingering his Trident.

Back to the topic, Ar-Pharazôn and his army may have faded like the Ringwraiths. Or died and became ghosts like the Ghost Army. It's also possible that they're still alive though, since they'd set foot on the "Undying" Lands.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

Back to the topic, Ar-Pharazôn and his army may have faded like the Ringwraiths. Or died and became ghosts like the Ghost Army. It's also possible that they're still alive though, since they'd set foot on the "Undying" Lands.

Tolkien was quite implicit in his letters that merely being in Valinor does not confer immortality (the inhabitants, the Elves, Maiar and Valar were immortal in the first place). Frodo and Bilbo certainly died after a period of time living in Aman. The 'Caves of the Forgotten' implies a purgatory or limbo where spirits reside until the end of time. So, I would say the Numenorean army did indeed die, and their spirits will rise again for the Middle-earth version of Ragnarok (where dead folks like Turin will join in the battle).

[Ironfoot]

The Caves of the Forgotten remind me of the Halls of Mandos in a way, in that it is a type of purgatory of souls that will be rehoused at the end of the world, save it's only for the fea of men. It seems as though Illuvatar is a very clever god: he gave Ar-Pharazon exactly what he wanted, but I'm sure that it wasn't what he was expecting. The lesson learned is that true immortality only comes from the spirit, and that elvish immortality was but just a saying of indefinite life in the flesh. I think when Ar-Pharazon and his army's fea are rehoused back into their original bodies just like the elves, he'll choose to fight alongside the Valar, but that's my personal opinion.

[Galadriel55]

Eru indeed gave Pharazon what he asked for. Isn't that the best way to teach people? Pharazon had lots of time to reflect on all his deeds *evil grin*.
My personal opinion about im/mortality (in general, not only in Tolkien) is that whether you believe in afterlife or in souls coming back to live more than once or not, your spirit and your memmory remains alive (not in the sense of fea, but more as in legacy/how people know you/what you've done). Pharazon's memmory that he left behind is not the kind of way he'd like to live