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Old 06-25-2006, 04:03 PM   #41
littlemanpoet
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All of you are most gracious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurumaiel
A couple of questions...

Firstly, how far would you like it to extend? The dialogue of the characters, naturally... their thoughts as well? Just the writing in general?

Secondly, though Liornung is of Rohirric origin, would he have more of a range considering that he spends his time travelling from place to place, and would more than likely pick up on various dialects?
Liornung would have picked up a smattering of Gondorian, no doubt. So I can see him doing more with Latinate vocabulary.

EDIT: my reply continued:

It's really up to you, Nuru, whether you want Liornung to be "taken with language for its own sake", or be more rooted to his own speech with borrowings as he finds them useful. My own sense after reading the whole story again, is the latter, but he's your character.

As for your first question, the way I handle my posts is to allow myself a lot of freedom in narration, although I'm not going to start making analogies to nuclear weapons (unless Tharonwe does something to make it work!). Thoughts and dialogue are going to follow character speech tendencies very closely, however. I have purposely put a lot of Latinate in Tharonwe's mouth, (1) because he's evil, and great villains tend to talk in parsed speech, if you take my meaning; (2) because he's old, and the use of a large vocabulary reflects that. Erebemlin, being somewhat old, may have a larger vocabulary, but he has spent most of his years in Lorien, I'm guessing, and therefore his archaisms might follow a more strict pattern.

Last edited by littlemanpoet; 06-25-2006 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 06-25-2006, 04:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
The use of language is a critical element in LotR. I tried to encourage us, in our attempt to be canonical, to use language that was as simple as possible, as a way of being true to Tolkien who used almost all Anglo-Saxon based word choice in LotR.
On a similar, but not identical note...

I'd like to take a little umbrage at your use of "Translation" thus far. And I mean it as inoffensively as possible.

Specifically, I'm referring to the incidents with Raefindan, where he starts recognizing connections between Rohirric and his own "home" language- English. Such as when he decides there's a real connection between "Edgar" and "Ædegard".

The thing here is that if we accept that English is merely used in lieu of Westron, then we have to accept that Anglo-Saxon is merely used in lieu of Rohirric. Therefore, it CANNOT be possible, as presented, for Raefindan to hear the phonetic and linguistic connections between Ædegard and Edgar, because Ædegard is merely a substitution for the "real" Rohirric name- which might likely have the same meaning, but which certainly wouldn't have a discernable phonetic similarity that Raefindan could recognize.

Similarily, I'm a little bit queasy about Raefindan's use of words that Mellonin, Aeron, and others don't understand. While it is entirely possible for bits of English to slip into his speech, with English being used as a translation for Westron, it really blurs the lines of what is translation and what is real English.

I bring this up purely because LMP has started off on language. It's an issue that gave me a few twitches in my cheek when reading the story. And it's a really minor issue- but if you want to be as canonical as possible, one has to remember the Translator's Conceit.

Do I even make sense?
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:15 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
Do I even make sense?
Absolutely. You make very good points.

Gondorian is not really Latin.
Rohirric is not really Anglo-Saxon.
Commont Tongue is not really modern English.

Nevertheless, what I have been doing is an imitation of what Tolkien was working at in his Notion Club Papers (I think), in which an Anglo-Saxon father and son from roughly 1,000 A.D. dreamed of himself being present at the Akallebêth, and he was able to recognize similarities in speech between what Elendil was saying and his own speech. So what I am doing may not be as finely crafted as Tolkien's, as I'm no gifted philologist. However, what I am doing has a precedent in Tolkien.

So maybe I'm not doing it the way it ought to be done, but I'm trying to be as canonical as I know how to be. I hope that helps to explain things well enough....
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:25 PM   #44
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lmp, I'm all for improvement, so if there is any way to better my writing, please give me suggestions. I, for one, am happy you're offering your assistance.
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:31 PM   #45
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Wow!

I've finished reading everything up to yesterday. Wow!

We sure did put our characters through a lot! On purpose, as I recall. There were a lot of tear jerking moments, on pages 16 - 18 especially. Reading Jorje against the Merlocks actually got me almost whooping for joy. ....which is somewhat proud to say, as I wrote it, but I s'pose I did okay with that one. The burial was really moving. One of the greatest treats was reading how Ædegard finally started listening to Leafa, seeking her point of view, and discovering what a wise woman he had fallen in love with. Very enjoyable!

A lot of it was very harrowing. It's no wonder we were exhausted by page 18.

All that to lead into this:

We really need to make Tapestry 2 as - erm - "harrowing" (in its way) as Tapestry 1.

So let's plan for it early. Thus, heres the question:

What are you willing to allow to happen to your character(s)?

1. cuts and bruises?
2. maiming?
3. loss of one or more of the 5 senses?
4. loss of a limb, ear, etc.?
5. death?

Please go with your true desire and willingness. If I'm overstepping my bounds with this, please let me know and I'll quiet down. But I'll add just this much: Tapestry 1 was made the better for being willing to let our characters really go through difficult stuff.
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:37 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
What are you willing to allow to happen to your character(s)?

1. cuts and bruises?
2. maiming?
3. loss of one or more of the 5 senses?
4. loss of a limb, ear, etc.?
5. death?
Any of the above as required by the story.
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Old 06-25-2006, 06:37 PM   #47
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Stuff that Must Happen

Just one more post for now tonight, while the iron's in the fire.

A lot got set in motion that must be continued into Tapestry 2. Obvious.

Some of it might get lost in the sheer volume of what got written, and it would be grievous to allow that to happen, so let's remind each other of stuff that must happen. Here's a beginning of the list (feel free to copy and paste into your own post so we can keep a concise and growing list):

1. Marigold prophesied that Aeron would be the only one to pierce through all illusions. The ghost of Gwyllion is the link between Nimrodel & Mithrellas on one hand, and Aeron on the other, to make this happen.

2. Ædegard and Leafa had dreams in Marigold's house that should be taken as foretellings of the future that will come true (?): young married couple with a babe, and an elderly couple with many grand children.

3. Tharonwe (Maegeleb) is going to use hypnotism combined with Osanwë on human and elf alike in order to achieve his desire.

That's all that comes fresh to mind right now.
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Old 06-25-2006, 07:56 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Absolutely. You make very good points.

Gondorian is not really Latin.
Rohirric is not really Anglo-Saxon.
Commont Tongue is not really modern English.

Nevertheless, what I have been doing is an imitation of what Tolkien was working at in his Notion Club Papers (I think), in which an Anglo-Saxon father and son from roughly 1,000 A.D. dreamed of himself being present at the Akallebêth, and he was able to recognize similarities in speech between what Elendil was saying and his own speech. So what I am doing may not be as finely crafted as Tolkien's, as I'm no gifted philologist. However, what I am doing has a precedent in Tolkien.

So maybe I'm not doing it the way it ought to be done, but I'm trying to be as canonical as I know how to be. I hope that helps to explain things well enough....
Being well-acquainted with both The Lost Road and the Notion Club Papers, I'm well aware of the sort of time-travel story you're working with- I'm merely quibbling about the mode of presentation regarding the linguistic element.

Not, mind you, that I'm entirely sure how best to convery that... so much as I'm stating a general concern about blurring the boundaries between Westron-translated-by-English, and English Proper- though one will note that Tolkien himself came close to confusing the two.

Basically, what I'm MOST concerned about would be Raefindan making further (what's done, after all, is done) connections between words in Rohirric and words and English. Between Anglo-Saxon and English, this could be done, but Anglo-Saxon and Rohirric are not, as a seen, one and the same.

As for how far I'd be willing to torture/torment Bergil- or any other character- I honestly can't say at this point. Those are the sorts of things that the story has to dictate. Personally, I can see loss of limb or life being better/easier for me in virtually any circumstance than loss of a sense- though the challenge itself should maybe be reason enough to attempt the latter.

Basically, whatever makes the best story seems to be what I feel...
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:05 PM   #49
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My response is pretty much the same as Celuien's... it depends on what fits.
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:29 PM   #50
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Anyway...one last post...

If Gondorians are prone to "Latinate" then I guess it's okay that Bellyn leaned toward that in Tapestry 1 because she grew up in Gondor...

And, as far as maiming/losing senses/what-have-you...I guess whatever is needed by the story, but my one true preference is for Bella not to die. That's all.

Name (that you go by):
Aylwen. Mallory.
Age: 17
Occupation: Student during the school year. Cashier at a clothing store.
Future Aspirations: Travel the world. Join the Peace Corps. Write a book. Run a marathon. Become an anthropologist or something. Learn more languages.
Goal in life: Change the world. No, really, I’m serious.
Short term goals: Finish packing for Costa Rica.
Passion: My family and friends. Writing, music, running, athletics in general, languages.
Hobbies: Swimming and playing guitar, playing soccer.
Famous for (brag about yourself): Being happy all the time, talking a lot, being excited about the little things, having more miles on my running shoes than on my car.
Fave book: The Silmarillion, The Phantom Tollbooth
Fave movie: The Fellowship of the Ring, Garden State, Beauty and the Beast, and Finding Nemo.
Fave sport: CROSS-COUNTRY. Running, not skiing. Soccer is a close second.
Fave store: Music stores.
Fave music: I like music so much. I guess I’d say most alternative rock and “indie” rock. I also love the Beatles and Pink Floyd. I’m a sucker for Beethoven, Irish folk music, and church hymns. I love Spanish music. I guess it would be easier to just say that I love music.
What you can't stand: People who don’t use their turn signal when they drive, people who step on the back of your flip flops while you’re walking.
What you plain dislike: Math. Country music. Rap (it’s not music).
Who you admire: I admire a lot of people…
What you most love to do: Run. Play music. Write. Hang out with friends. Ride bikes.
Your self-confessed flaws: I believe I am one of the most impatient people alive. I am loud – the stereo, my guitar amp…they’re on the highest volume level or not on at all. I talk a lot. I take things with a grain of salt which makes people angry sometimes when I don’t take things seriously. There are very few things I do take seriously (those things include church, running, music, and family).
What intrigues/fascinates you: People. The world. Fire. Languages. Thunderstorms.
What scares you: Bugs. Failure. Disappointing the people I love.
Quotation to live by: “Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.”


Value-specific:
What do you want most in a friend? Honesty, loyalty, sense of humor, consistency.
What do you want most in a teacher? Intelligence, understanding, open-mindedness.
What do you want most in an ally? Intelligence, trust, loyalty.
What do you want most in a team-mate? Speed, endurance, strength. Other than that? Sense of humor, reliability, determination, motivation.
What do you want people to remember most about you? That I never gave up.

Writer-specific:
Your favorite work you've written so far: Mm. Well, I sure did like that short story I co-wrote in my freshman creative writing class. That was a good one.
Your favorite character so far: I love them all.
What you plan to write soon: I'll write a lot about my trip in Costa Rica.
What inspires you to write: People. Life. Music.
What makes your writing stall: Thinking that it’s not good enough, that it’s not right, that it’s not perfect, that no one will like it.
Do you get writers' block and how do you overcome it? I go for a long, long, long run. Or I go for a bike ride. Or I play some guitar. Then I come back and I’m okay again.

Middle-Earth specific:
Your favorite ME character(s)? Feanor and Sam.
What do you like about them? For an elf, Feanor is just so…so human. He is the dark side of every person…plus he’s fiery and passionate and determined – focused to the point of recklessness. Sam just reminds me of my best friend.
Your favorite moment(s) from the Trilogy? The very end…when Sam says, “Well, I’m back.”
Your favorite plot twist(s) from the Trilogy? I guess it’s not really a “twist,” but I love that the hobbits, even with everyone doubting them and laughing at them, changed their world. It is hope that maybe the average someone can change everything.
Looking at your personality as it is, what race do you belong to in Middle-Earth and why? Eh, I guess those silly hobbits. They’re short. They’re happy 24/7. They like to dance around. Need I say more?
What race would you *like* to belong to in Middle-Earth and why? Probably the elves. They’re very tall and I’d really like to know what the view is like from up there. I don’t think I could handle living forever though.
What place(s)would you live in Middle Earth and why? The Grey Havens. It sounds rainy and drizzly there, and I like the rain.
Where would you want to visit? Why? Near or Far Harad…it sounds like it’s a sandy, hot, dry, savannah wasteland. Sounds fun.
How would you travel? I run everywhere. Walking just isn’t fast enough.
Besides the usual camping & travel stuff, what single special item is in your knapsack and why? An MP3 player. Where would I be without my music?

So, right. I'll be back July 6th...hope I don't miss too much.

-Aylwen
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:41 PM   #51
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There is a rather simple, if slightly artificial way, to get around the issue of the Translator Conceit: Roy Edwards, a character I created long before there was a Tapestry of Dreams rpg, is a 21st century Christian young man. He is currently dreaming Tapestry, in which he is dreaming himself as Imrazor. I shall call it the Dream Conceit. Roy aka Raefindan aka Imrazor is all three men at once, and this - ah - ahem - miracle of dreaming a reality, allows for the - ahem - transliteration of language according to the plan of those Powers that have concerned themselves with the goings on of Amroth, Nimrodel, and all those characters who have attached themselves thereto. As Roy/Raefindan has discovered finally on page 18, there is a Purpose for him to be dreaming what is apparently real, in which he apparently is indeed Roy, Raefindan, and Imrazor all at the same time, incarnated in some form of (dare I say it) trans(p)neumation, if you take my meaning. It is, in essence, a mystery, and language connections are transliterated just as Roy is himself trans(p)neumated. Like it or not, it's at least plausible ... especially to a Roman Rite Follower, don't you know.

EDIT: Okay, not simple.
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Old 06-25-2006, 08:53 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
It is, in essence, a mystery, and language connections are transliterated just as Roy is himself trans(p)neumated.
Forgive a possibly stupid question, but...um, what exactly does that mean? I can't find trans(p)neumated in my dictionary. I thought I had a handle on what was happening with Roy because of the dream explanation, but is there something else that I should be aware of?
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Old 06-25-2006, 11:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
There is a rather simple, if slightly artificial way, to get around the issue of the Translator Conceit: Roy Edwards, a character I created long before there was a Tapestry of Dreams rpg, is a 21st century Christian young man. He is currently dreaming Tapestry, in which he is dreaming himself as Imrazor. I shall call it the Dream Conceit. Roy aka Raefindan aka Imrazor is all three men at once, and this - ah - ahem - miracle of dreaming a reality, allows for the - ahem - transliteration of language according to the plan of those Powers that have concerned themselves with the goings on of Amroth, Nimrodel, and all those characters who have attached themselves thereto. As Roy/Raefindan has discovered finally on page 18, there is a Purpose for him to be dreaming what is apparently real, in which he apparently is indeed Roy, Raefindan, and Imrazor all at the same time, incarnated in some form of (dare I say it) trans(p)neumation, if you take my meaning. It is, in essence, a mystery, and language connections are transliterated just as Roy is himself trans(p)neumated. Like it or not, it's at least plausible ... especially to a Roman Rite Follower, don't you know.

EDIT: Okay, not simple.
Well, if it works the way it is... don't change it on my account.

As far as I am concerned, the transliteration from Westron to English (or vice versa) is fully believable (well, within the context of the story). What I'm mainly taking issue with is that, as Raefindan, when Roy is hearing Rohirric, he is hearing not Anglo-Saxon- but Rohirric. Consequently, it shouldn't be possible for him to draw connections between Rohirric words and English ones. Really, it was the whole making a correlation between Edgar and Ædegard that drew my "ire" here.

Mind you, also... I'm not really a big fan of the whole "Raefindan is dreaming this" idea. For me it smacks too much of the film Wizard of Oz, in which the whole fantasy is explained away as having been "Dreamt". I think that I'm echoing the Professor in this rather queasy distaste. And, for the same reason: it upsets the idea that what is happening is REAL and FACT (of course it is neither, but it ought to FEIGN that). Even if it doesn't toy around with the reality of the Legendarium, I find it... disconcerting.... shall we say, to think that the whole reunion of Nimrodel and Amroth, the whole sibling relationship of Mellonin and Raefindan, the whole relationship of Roy and "Jorge", for that matter, becomes merely a "dream". And if Raefindan is merely dreaming it... it's almost as if it never happened.

I don't know... the queasiness I've got doesn't seem to translate well into words. I hope I'm not causing unwitting offence here.

Now, I don't have either Lost Road or The Notion Club papers at hand to compare with, so I tread into the realm of complete memory/speculation here, but I seem to recall the premise of Tolkien's timetravel being that they are PREFIGURED by dreaming of being people in the past, with the story to move on to them ACTUALLY being there.

Anyway, my whole issue here is merely a matter of personal taste, and if the consensus is that the situation, as it stands, is too embedded in the story to be ignored/amended in future meaning/ to be changed, then I can and will go along with the flow. I shall do as Bergil, and ignore any suggestion that was is happening is merely dream.
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Old 06-26-2006, 01:09 AM   #54
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Question Question...

Aylwen brought this up, but just to ask outright: since we're connecting, if not equating, Gondorian with Latin, would Ravion get away with more Latinate wordings since his main dwelling is in Gondor? Just wondering how careful I need to be.

Either way, though, you know that I'm more than open to your advice, lmp--I am looking forward to it. I am in no way, shape, or form a linguist, and I want to make my writing as authentic and true to this piece as possible.
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Old 06-26-2006, 03:36 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celuien
Forgive a possibly stupid question, but...um, what exactly does that mean? I can't find trans(p)neumated in my dictionary. I thought I had a handle on what was happening with Roy because of the dream explanation, but is there something else that I should be aware of?
I'm taking liberty with a certain Roman Rite doctrine (which may itself be offensive except that), I think the spiritual law actually does apply rather well to the issue at hand. Transubstantiation = the bread and wine remain bread and wine but become in Reality the body and blood of Christ. Just so, transliteration = the words remain what they were for the original speakers, but within Roy's dreaming, they become in Reality one with their Meanings. Trans(p)neumation = it's a dream but it's also Reality. Literally, "across" - "spirit" or "breath".

Which answers Formy's discomfort as well. It really is a dream, and it's also really Real. It's a spiritual principle borrowed from Roman Rite.

So Ædgar and Ædegard are quite purposeful. Just as Roy is Raefindan is Imrazor is quite purposeful. Truth be told, I intended the former whereas the latter happened to Roy within the story.

As for Ravion, Orual, if he's from Gondor the Latinate may be good; but remember also that it's a Numenorean who is going to speak really Latinate; Gondorians themselves are going to be more like Boromir than Faramir, if you understand me.
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Old 06-26-2006, 04:29 AM   #56
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I see, Elempi. Thanks for the explanation. You can probably imagine that I was rather mystified...
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Old 06-26-2006, 09:28 AM   #57
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Mystified by a mystical notion? Rather appropriate.

Another way of looking at this whole thing, Formy, is that Roy Edwards is just as feigned an English language speaker as Ædegard is a Rohirric speaker. So pick your conceit.
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Old 06-26-2006, 09:54 AM   #58
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I have to agree with Form on the dream issue.

Before I ever set foot in a writing classroom and before I ever considered myself a writer-in-training, I read. I taught myself to read before I was even in school because my mum was tired of reading that "just one more chapter?" every single night.

And every single time I've run across "And then she woke up" or anything remotely resembling it, it has completely ruined things for me. The quickest example to come to mind was my most recent encounter: Terry Pratchett's The Wee Free Men. About half-way through the book, his main character is busy battling creatures under orders from the Queen of the Elves and all and I was caught up in the story and most suddenly, Tiffany woke up. I came disturbingly close to closing the book and being done with it right there.

Every reader of fantasy, or really anything, engages in suspended disbelief. It is a knowing decision to ignore the fact that what you are reading is total bologna and to let yourself get caught up in the story with the mindset that of course it is real and the outcomes of every situation are completely and totally important to your life and future well-being.

As soon as you are told that it was all a dream, the fantasy world that you have allowed yourself to be captured in comes crashing down like a card castle in the wind and you feel like a fool. Of course, it was just a story. Even inside the story, it was just a story. I let myself get caught up in something that isn't even a pragmatic reality for the characters; double the fool am I.

When you allow for suspended disbelief and you reach a point where suddenly you're informed that you didn't need it, it's like being told that you were wasting your time and imagination. It feels like a trick played by the writer.

It leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

My most recent "official" writing teacher said on the first day of class that it weakens your story to qualify it like that, and I agree. It's too much like breaking the rules. If your story is a dream, what is there to stop you from incorporating anything that unconscious thought might? If it is all merely a dream, where are the rules of the universe you have created that stop you from killing the mood? I am aware that each writer here has such control that s/he wouldn't let the fact that it is both dream and reality manipulate the plot, but I can't find it in myself to be comfortable with taking the easy way out.

And for me, making it a dream is the easy way and I've long since come to the conclusion that if something isn't painfully difficult, I am, or we are, doing it wrong.

Edit: Upon review, this might come off as preachy or worse... It is merely meant to state my opinion of the revelations thus far that I have encountered of an entire story having been a dream. Feel absolutely free to completely ignore me. If the rest of the team likes the dream solution (which is certainly a creative one) to translator's conceit, I will happily step down and never bring it up again.
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:21 PM   #59
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You guys aren't getting it. I'm being frank.

This story is all about dreams and people who dream, but here's the critical point:

The dreams are true. They keep revealing reality.

That Roy Edwards is dreaming himself as Raefindan must not lessen in your mind, as reader, the story he is dreaming, because for Roy, his Raefindan is real - within the story.

For the sake of this story:

Do not think this way: "It's a dream therefore it's not real."

Think this way: "It's a dream AND it's real."

Just because one of the characters in the story is dreaming it, doesn't make it less real for ANY of them. I know that's hard to get your mind around, but that's what we're doing in this story. I don't think I understand this incorrectly.

Amroth is dreaming what's really happening to Nimrodel.
Raefindan is dreaming what really happened between Mithrellas and himself as Imrazor.
Roy Edwards is dreaming what really happened to Mellonin, Mellondu, Raefindan, and all the rest of them.

Et cetera.

Get it?
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Old 06-26-2006, 07:57 PM   #60
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I get it. Fascinating, mind-bending, and not at all the St. Elsewhere 'it was all a fantasy' ending. All real and channeled through an special awareness of reality and time, past and present, to be found in dreams.

Or I think I do...
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:11 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Amroth is dreaming what's really happening to Nimrodel.
Raefindan is dreaming what really happened between Mithrellas and himself as Imrazor.
Roy Edwards is dreaming what really happened to Mellonin, Mellondu, Raefindan, and all the rest of them.

Et cetera.

Get it?
I get it... and I'm not TRYING to make things more difficult... but there seems to me to be a contradiction here.

Roy dreaming as Raefindan IN THE SAME MANNER as Raefindan dreaming as Imrazor implies that Raefindan exists in Middle-Earth, quite apart from Roy, just as Imrazor existed, quite apart from Raefindan.

However, all indications thus far have been that Raefindan IS Roy- but in Middle-Earth. Take away the dreamer and you are left with... nobody. Raefindan cannot exist without Roy, since he wholly and totally is Roy- he has no other history or memory AS RAEFINDAN from prior to when Roy and he begin to coexist- whereas Imrazor (or so my reading seemed to imply)- though his experiences are wholly shared and experienced by Raefindan- existed on his own, with his own history and memories, prior to when Raefindan first started dreaming him.

Does that make sense?

Oh, and on a sillier note, I must take offence at your calling transubstantiation a "Roman Rite" doctrine. You do a great disservice to the Eastern Rite Catholics. And certain Anglicans.
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Formendacil
Roy dreaming as Raefindan IN THE SAME MANNER as Raefindan dreaming as Imrazor implies that Raefindan exists in Middle-Earth, quite apart from Roy, just as Imrazor existed, quite apart from Raefindan.
That's what I thought was happening...Raefindan received Roy's consciousness through the dream and suffered identity confusion in the same way as Amroth appears. But if Raefindan only exists as long as Roy dreams, I see what you mean.
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:33 PM   #63
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I get it... and I'm not TRYING to make things more difficult... but there seems to me to be a contradiction here.

Roy dreaming as Raefindan IN THE SAME MANNER as Raefindan dreaming as Imrazor implies that Raefindan exists in Middle-Earth, quite apart from Roy, just as Imrazor existed, quite apart from Raefindan.

However, all indications thus far have been that Raefindan IS Roy- but in Middle-Earth. Take away the dreamer and you are left with... nobody. Raefindan cannot exist without Roy, since he wholly and totally is Roy- he has no other history or memory AS RAEFINDAN from prior to when Roy and he begin to coexist- whereas Imrazor (or so my reading seemed to imply)- though his experiences are wholly shared and experienced by Raefindan- existed on his own, with his own history and memories, prior to when Raefindan first started dreaming him.

Does that make sense?
Yes.

However, I think you're forcing distinctions that need not exist. Let there be the 'logic' of mythic unities rather than the 'logic' of distinctions. With the logic of distinctions, you can choose to interpret it the way Formy does, or the way Celuien does. But with the logic of mythic unities, you allow the story to live and the paradox to remain, and see what the story shows.

My understanding of the story has matured as I've written my posts. That's the nature of rough drafting. There are things I would have written in earlier had I known them. I'm not sure whether I want to say that Raefindan had an existence in Middle Earth prior to finding himself before the gates of Minas Tirith, or not. So I won't. I'll leave it a mystery. No, make that, I'll leave it a Mythic Unity. Because I think that mythic unity is what I, and we, are shooting for with this. And if that creates all kinds of new questions, there's a certain thread I can refer you to.....

Quote:
Oh, and on a sillier note, I must take offence at your calling transubstantiation a "Roman Rite" doctrine. You do a great disservice to the Eastern Rite Catholics. And certain Anglicans.
Here I was trying to be considerate. I can't win.

Just remember, we are all of us rough drafting, and we may stumble and post things that we will say "No, that doesn't work" later. But in the meantime, let the story live. Don't try to analyze it to death. You run the risk of killing the story.
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:37 PM   #64
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Okay, okay. Advice taken. I'll shut up and watch.

Apologies if I seem critical. I don't mean to be. These have just been a bad past couple of hours for me (received bad, though ultimately fortunate news), so I'm a little bit distracted right now.
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Old 06-26-2006, 08:45 PM   #65
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You don't seem critical, Celuien. Not at all!

If I seem a bit - ah - passionate, it's because I am.

In general, yes, but about this thread a lot. Helen has provided a forum in Tapestry where I can actually "test my wings" on stuff like mythic unity. I am jealous of my opportunity to do so.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:51 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
You don't seem critical, Celuien. Not at all!
Of course not, that would be encroaching on my turf!

Well, if it makes sense to you, LMP... then good luck. But no amount of transliterating of transubstantiating is going to make it perfectly fine, in my lights. However, I am quite capable of pretending it doesn't exist... Bergil and I shall pretend together.

Run the risk of killing the story? Tolkien over-analysed the Lord of the Rings before it was even finished... I have no fear that we can kill the story. It's more powerful than that!

Okay, case closed... but another occurance of "swamp-lembas" and I shall have to dig out my canon-cannon.
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:35 AM   #67
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... but another occurance of "swamp-lembas" and I shall have to dig out my canon-cannon.
Come come! What's an elf living in a swamp to do, make believe that the lembas he makes that comes from the swamp isn't going to have any kind of taste of having come from it?
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Old 06-27-2006, 07:49 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
You guys aren't getting it. I'm being frank.
Oh please don't... I have an ex-something-I-would-never-call-a-significant-other that was born being Frank and I'd very much prefer that you remain LMP...

On a serious note, please don't be impatient with me...

I understand that the dreams are real. That was never a problem for me. It's not a traditional dream so much as a medium through which a living story can be viewed. Am I right?

What worries me, it appears, is not that Roy is dreaming this, but how it will be revealed that he is. Will it be explained to the readers as clearly as it has been to us that this is all real, or will they walk away from the story feeling cheated of the reality they have let their imaginations create?

Please don't take my concern as lack of credit for your skill in storytelling, LMP, as it's not meant to be anything like it. I fully trust in your ability. I'm just trying to figure out how things have worked, are working, and will work. Didn't you know? I like to learn things.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:42 AM   #69
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On a serious note, please don't be impatient with me...
Okay. You could tell a little, couldn't you....

Quote:
I understand that the dreams are real. That was never a problem for me. It's not a traditional dream so much as a medium through which a living story can be viewed. Am I right?
I think so, if I understand your meaning.

Quote:
What worries me, it appears, is not that Roy is dreaming this, but how it will be revealed that he is. Will it be explained to the readers as clearly as it has been to us that this is all real, or will they walk away from the story feeling cheated of the reality they have let their imaginations create?
This is a valid concern. Thanks for expressing it. As you suggest, it's all in the telling/showing that this will work or not. I assure you that I'll do my best to make this clear by the end of the story. I actually do hate the "and he woke up" ending too. So don't worry about that. I'm actually looking forward to writing that ending because I think it'll be very special. Not that I want to rush us to it, by any means!

EDIT: Oh, and Formy, if you take a close look at the swamp lembas post, you'll see that it was the swamp elf who could tell the difference while the human ate it up quite happily. Perhaps I should have made it more plain that Raefindan thought it was wonderful. I hope I implied it, at any rate. Even if I didn't, it'll be changed in the published version.
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Old 06-27-2006, 09:56 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Okay. You could tell a little, couldn't you....
Just a little.

Quote:
I actually do hate the "and he woke up" ending too. So don't worry about that.
Okay. I won't.

What I will do is continue to sit in my dark room in pjs and under blankets while listening to the rain slap on the sill of my open window, sipping spiced chai, and contentedly reading another page or four of Tapestry. I'll be around all afternoon if anybody needs me.
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Old 06-27-2006, 12:48 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
I'll leave it a mystery. No, make that, I'll leave it a Mythic Unity. Because I think that mythic unity is what I, and we, are shooting for with this. And if that creates all kinds of new questions, there's a certain thread I can refer you to.....
Hmmm. Good point; a concise summary (is there such a thing?) of Mythic Unity might be a good thing to add here as a reference. I'm not as sure that I'm shooting (personally) for mythic unity-- am I? I guess I could be or maybe I was without remembering-- but I do know I am shooting for Glimpses Of The Divine; and that, I suspect, means that the mythic unities will show themselves whether I plan it or not. So far, so good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
... let the story live. Don't try to analyze it to death. You run the risk of killing the story.
Formendacil, Tolkien analyzed some things, true; but there were other things he was content to leave a mystery; like Lembas itself, if I recall.

Swamp-lembas-- hmmm. Theoretically, Lembas was made by the Lady of Lorien who alone had the true recipe. So any lembas that Tharonwe might concoct would be (a) insufficient (b) a fruit of pride and rebellion and (c) probably something that tastes good but turns sour, if not in the stomach, then in the soul. (Think Turkish Delight.) If we consider the Roman Rite (and Eastern and Greek etc) as primarily one where the Real Presence is taken very seriously, then Tharonwe's making unreal / less-than-real / worse-than-real swamp lembas might give us a little insight into his twisted character, and maybe a little insight into an inner longing that he himself might not admit.

......lmp, if Raefindan had had more than a day's worth of Swamp Lembas, what might have happened to him?
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Old 06-27-2006, 02:44 PM   #72
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Swamp-lembas-- hmmm. Theoretically, Lembas was made by the Lady of Lorien who alone had the true recipe. So any lembas that Tharonwe might concoct would be (a) insufficient (b) a fruit of pride and rebellion and (c) probably something that tastes good but turns sour, if not in the stomach, then in the soul. (Think Turkish Delight.) If we consider the Roman Rite (and Eastern and Greek etc) as primarily one where the Real Presence is taken very seriously, then Tharonwe's making unreal / less-than-real / worse-than-real swamp lembas might give us a little insight into his twisted character, and maybe a little insight into an inner longing that he himself might not admit.
Do be careful not to over-Clive Staples Lewis-ize Middle Earth. The process and dynamics would be much more subtle. Thus the "sour" would be a matter of the soul rather than the belly, I think, and only over time.

Quote:
......lmp, if Raefindan had had more than a day's worth of Swamp Lembas, what might have happened to him?
The above said, it would probably wokr like any toxic substance we take into our bodies in modern times, depending on the type. Sugar is toxic, for example, especially the processed kind, but we like it so much we ignore the harm it does to our bodies. Preservatives in food are toxic, but not as much as wall paint. I didn't realize that lembas was Galadriel's own recipe. That changes things. However, that begs the question: was Galadriel's lembas the best, or the only? If the best, then Tharonwe might have swamp lembas that he could tell was inferior, and made with his own spirit's ill, would be toxic in some way. If the only, then Tharonwe only has waybread that may be toxic the same way preservatives are. Okay, I'm going to stop beating this dead horse before I come up with a really weird answer. In short, Raefindan would get much more soul damage from having his mind invaded than from dark-elvish waybread. Don't you think?
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:37 PM   #73
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Do be careful not to over-Clive Staples Lewis-ize Middle Earth. The process and dynamics would be much more subtle. Thus the "sour" would be a matter of the soul rather than the belly, I think, and only over time.
Right. Actually I was thinking more of Ezekiel's scroll (was it Ezekiel? Must check...) ( No, way off, it was John in Revelation10:10 Then I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter.) and sort of the Proverbs thing, Stolen bread tastes sweet but ...ooops again, anyway Proverbs 9:17 or so says
Quote:
17 “Stolen water is sweet,
And bread eaten in secret is pleasant.”
18 But he does not know that the dead are there,
That her guests are in the depths of hell.
Quote:
The above said, it would probably wokr like any toxic substance we take into our bodies in modern times, depending on the type. Sugar is toxic, for example, especially the processed kind, but we like it so much we ignore the harm it does to our bodies. Preservatives in food are toxic, but not as much as wall paint. I didn't realize that lembas was Galadriel's own recipe. That changes things. However, that begs the question: was Galadriel's lembas the best, or the only? If the best, then Tharonwe might have swamp lembas that he could tell was inferior, and made with his own spirit's ill, would be toxic in some way. If the only, then Tharonwe only has waybread that may be toxic the same way preservatives are. Okay, I'm going to stop beating this dead horse before I come up with a really weird answer. In short, Raefindan would get much more soul damage from having his mind invaded than from dark-elvish waybread. Don't you think?
Er, yes to your last question-- but over all, no. If we are going with the Roman Rite thread, then there is either Consecrated host, or, a false host-- so you are dealing with communion by faith and un-communion by unfaith.

One of the results of lembas was to lighten the hearts of those who ate it (I don't think he meant arteries...) It was a spiritual "bread", not just a physical one. It was another of those mystic unities, I think. Essence of life.

But it takes a non-protestant to feel that way, I think. Now I should be off to band practice but I'm gong to take a minute and google lembas and queen.....
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Old 06-27-2006, 03:50 PM   #74
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Speaking of Melian...
Quote:
"And she gave him a store of lembas, the waybread of the Elves, wrapped in leaves of silver, and the threads that bound it were sealed at the knots with the seal of the Queen...for according to the customs of the Eldalie the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the Queen alone. In nothing did Melian show greater favour to Turin than in this gift; for the Eldar had never before allowed Men to use this waybread, and seldom did so again."
Also see Wikipedia

and

tolkienwiki

scroll down to The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME XII) entry, esecially the line
Quote:
for according to the customs of the Eldalië the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the Queen alone.
However, that would be trumped, I suppose, by the first line, "'This food the Eldar alone knew how to make. It was made for the comfort of those who had need to go upon a long journey in the wild, or of the hurt whose life was in peril. Only these were permitted to use it. The Eldar did not give it to Men, save only to a few whom they loved, if they were in great need."

And now I reallymust get to band practice.


Post band-practice edit: It was before me yet I saw it not...

Quote:
The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have lain down to die. It did not satisfy desire, and at times Sam’s mind was filled with the memories of food, and the longing for simple bread and meats. And yet, this way bread of the Elves had potency that increased as travelers relied upon it alone and did not mingle it with other foods. It fed the will, and it gave strength to endure, and to master sinew and limb beyond the measure of mortal kind.
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Old 06-27-2006, 08:37 PM   #75
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Hmmm.... I did not realize that I had written something that could have such potency - or unpotency, as it were, into Tharonwe's practices. This could make him more evil than I had really seen him as, or else more deeply deluded.... which amounts to the same thing I suppose. So the swamp lembas is a "forgery", or a second rate elvish way bread at best, not of the Eldalië, but of the Moriquendi. Since he is still Elvish and has the capabilities of an Elf, namely osanwë, and Elvish arts (so-called magic), he can make some things of superior quality as compared with human. It depends on how corrupted he is. So .... how corrupted is he?
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Old 06-28-2006, 12:50 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Hmmm.... I did not realize that I had written something that could have such potency - or unpotency, as it were, into Tharonwe's practices. This could make him more evil than I had really seen him as, or else more deeply deluded.... which amounts to the same thing I suppose. So the swamp lembas is a "forgery", or a second rate elvish way bread at best, not of the Eldalië, but of the Moriquendi. Since he is still Elvish and has the capabilities of an Elf, namely osanwë, and Elvish arts (so-called magic), he can make some things of superior quality as compared with human. It depends on how corrupted he is. So .... how corrupted is he?
More than enough...

You really need to find a copy of HoME Volume XII, as there is a chapter (short, but still a chapter) entirely devoted to an essay/text in which Tolkien discusses Lembas- specifically who grows it, and how.

Lembas is grown of a special corn, from the Blessed Realm- and, as noted, belongs culturally to the Noldor who returned from Valinor, and to the Sindar who had it of Melian who came from Valinor. It was made only by the Elven-ladies, and it was the right of the Queen to give to whom she wished- but it was given but VERY rarely to those of non-Elven race. Túrin and the Fellowship were astounding contradictions to the norm.

And, as a consequence of that, I take a tiny bit of canonical umbrage at the Tapestry plot- I recall a very minor point, when leaving Lórien, when they packed and shared Lembas as if it were mere cram... but I'm being pedantic, and I don't have a link to the offending text, so pay me no mind.

IF Tharonwë's "lembas" may be considered as either genuine Lembas (that is, coming from the Valinor-bred Lembas-corn), then he is certainly perverted in that he, a male, is the one baking it. Although we are told that Elven males were the normal food-preparers of the species, this particular right was reserved for the ladies.

On the other hand, if Tharonwë's "lembas" are mere imitations of the real thing- not grown of genuine "lembas-corn", then there are various implications that this could have.
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:30 AM   #77
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Thanks for teaching me something new. I appreciate it. Just a thought: might Tharonwe have thieved the recipe from Nimrodel? That could have interesting implications....
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Old 06-28-2006, 04:42 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Thanks for teaching me something new. I appreciate it. Just a thought: might Tharonwe have thieved the recipe from Nimrodel? That could have interesting implications....
INdeed.

Another thing that the Home chapter suggests (do look at TolkienWiki, some of it is quoted there) suggests that the elves made the lembas **in community**. So even Tharonwe's making it alone, is a lack of communion, a rebellion, and a twisting of the ideals of lembas.

Very eucharist-- like.
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Old 06-28-2006, 07:59 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
Thanks for teaching me something new. I appreciate it. Just a thought: might Tharonwe have thieved the recipe from Nimrodel? That could have interesting implications....
If it's there in her subconscious... then I imagine so.

The question is whether Nimrodel, as a Silvan Elf, would have had the recipe. Lembas is a SPECIFICALLY Noldorin/Sindarin concern in Middle-Earth, and one wonders if pre-Galadriel Lothlórien would have had Lembas. On the other hand, Galadriel dwelt for a time in Lórien after the fall of Eregion, and may have started the cultivation of Lembas-corn at that time. The question is whether or not this would only have been entrusted to those Elf-maidens of Sindarin descent (those of Noldorin descent being nearly nil) or whether the local Silvan Elves would have been recruited to assist. Either way seems likely, depending on whether one leans on a more supremacist, Noldor/Sindar first view of the Beleriandic Elves, or if one seems them in a more "missionary" light- which is yet another Eucharistic parallel.

If the latter, then it seems to me likely that Nimrodel would have been one of those who would have been a baker of Lembas. As the the betrothed of Amroth, in her last years in Lórien anyway, she would have very likely been one of those involved- and possibly Mithrellas as well.
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Old 06-28-2006, 08:17 PM   #80
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In that case, let's go with Tharonwe having filched from Nimrodel's fevered mind. This reminds me of Tolkien's penchant for writing stories, then realizing he had created apparent contradictions, and then asking, "okay, how did this come about?" And then he would figure out how it happened; which is how his feigned history got so interesting! We're doing it, my friends!
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