Unknown beings!?

[Ulvenok]

'...brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great... they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much...'
The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor

These are beings not explored by Tolkien, unknown by most maybe even the Valas. Ungoliant is clearly such a being and she could take on Melkor the most powerful of the Valas! "They were born before the world and are older than it's oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much", that sounds so much like Tom Bombadil he can't be anything but just that.

The one ring had no power over Tom just like Melkor had no power over Ungoliant. If Ungoliant is Tom's equal one can't help but to wonder the extent of Tom's actual power. Would he be able to contest with the powers of the world? Evidently there are many such creatures, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns. Goldberry could very well be of their kind too. Also Gandalf mentions there being strange creatures gnawing at the root of the mountain. Gnawing is a direct reference by Tolkien to Níðhöggr.

Níðhöggr is a being which gnaws one of the three roots of Yggdrasill. It is sometimes believed that the roots are trapping the beast from the world. This root is placed over Niflheimr and Níðhöggr gnaws it from beneath.

So these creatures including Tom entered the world before the great powers, are not of it but are they of Eru? It seems odd that Eru would create "many" spirits equal to Melkor in power and place them in the world. This reminds me of when the silmarillion talks of the ents it says that Eru grabbed spirits from afar or something close to that. Is it possible that Tom, Goldberry, Ungoliant and beings of their kind answer to no one because there is nobody for them to answer to?

If that is true then how powerful would one rate a:

• Pixie
• Leprawn
• Brownie
• Fay
• Tom
• Goldberry
• Ungoliant
• Gnawing creature

and all the other unknown beings that has settled in Arda. Tolkien also said that one of the reasons he chose to include Tom in the story is to show that there are beings that are wholly unconcerned with what is going on in the world. Tom played with the ring as if was nothing, he made it dissapear, he wore it without being affected by it. He did not want it, yet was a bit curious about this "precious ring". Of course it's not precious to him, that was said in a sarcastic manner. What do you people think, what of these unknown beings?

[Bêthberry]

Those creatures are named in one of the very earliest tales Tolkien wrote. However, as Christopher Tolkien says in BoLT I, such creatures were very early on removed or edited out of the Lost Tales. They do not exist in the version of The Silm which CT published.

Dimitra Fimi's research on Tolkien suggests that in the very initial stages Tolkien conceived of fairies very similarly to their counterparts in Victorian literature (see the poem he came to dislike intensely, Goblin Feet) but that he came to despise these fluttering diminutive creatures and wanted to establish more robust fairies for himself.

The question of Tom's and Goldberry's similarity to them is very interesting and one I explored in a paper I gave at Return of the Ring last summer.I think there may well be others reasons Tolkien removed them.

However, since Tolkien did remove these fay creatures from his tales, that likely suggests they wouldn't rate in any power rating with those creatures who remain.

EDIT: Here's a link to Goblin Feet. I haven't verified if this online version is consistent with the print versions I've seen, though: Goblin Feet

[Lalwendë]

Also Gandalf mentions there being strange creatures gnawing at the root of the mountain. Gnawing is a direct reference by Tolkien to Níðhöggr.

Ulvenok, you've picked up on one of my favourite things there. I like digging out these references in Tolkien's work and he couldn't have chosen anything more frightening to be lurking under the Mountains (especially if you read the stark way the Niddhogr is described in the Voluspa).

I think the very presence of characters like Tom and Goldberry, and the 'nameless things' (and Pukel Men, and Ents etc) hints that there were more creatures and being in Middle-earth than we meet in the stories. That 'layering' adds the depth to Tolkien's creation that is missing from a lot of other stories. I'm not sure if Tolkien intended that, but it works in any case.

As to 'power' I think it can't be doubted that Ungoliant had an incredible level of it. Have a nose around because there's quite a lot of things on here about this subject.

[Ulvenok]

He may have removed the fairies but Tom and Goldberry are still there. Tom found Goldberry in a river and he sometimes refers to her as the riverwoman's daughter. Who is the riverwoman? Another unclassified being we know nothing about. Anyway I still find this quote intriguing.

They were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much...

It makes too much sense to be ignored, at least Tom and Ungoliant has to be of their kind. In which case Tom would be able to contest with the great powers, but never would since unlike Ungoliant he isn't concerned with a full belly or what is going on in the world at large. It's not in Tom's nature to fight, he is wholly neutral and just observes and studies everything as it is. So while he probably could make short work of Sauron, power really never plays into it since he isn't concerned with that or what is happening to innocent people in far away lands.

Anyway it's very interesting that Tolkien chose to include a being like Ungoliant in the Lord of the rings, a very minor major comment indeed.

[Inziladun]

Here is one of the many threads on the subject of Bombadil.

[Lalwendë]

I always think that Tom was part of Eru's creation of Arda itself, separate to the Valar, the Elves and Men. And put there by Tolkien to confound us! It would be very easy to have Eru create an ordered world with all the necessary gods and races in their correct place but Tolkien doesn't let Eru do that. Instead, Eru really is omnipotent and unknowable and lets beings like Tom and Ungoliant into his creation - as a result confounding all the readers!

We can only theorise

My theory on Ungoliant is that she isn't evil at all. She is simply an 'absence of light' or Un- Light. If Light is seen as somehow 'holy' in Tolkien's creation then Ungoliant is an absence of Light. She feeds on it like a black hole, but she isn't evil as she is part of what Eru either sent into the world or caused to happen during its creation.

[Rhod the Red]

Came to a sticky end too, didn't she eat herself?

[Elf_NFB]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar. It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar. Eonwe (Herald of Manwe) "whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda" So even the great warrior Tulkas could not defeat Eonwe.


At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

[Ulvenok]

I would say Ungoliant is a being of power somewhere between the Valar and the Maiar.

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

It's pretty clear that sufficiently strong Maiar could defeat a Valar.

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

At any rate, the Silmarillion describes Ungoliant as descending "from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service." So, she was one of the spirits that entered the world after its creation.. just like the other Maiar and the Valar.

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

It's a pet theory of mine that lesser spirits (less than the weakest Maiar) explain creatures like the Eagles, Huon, Tom, and even (perhaps) Ents. These lesser spirits descent into the world but are not corporeal. They join the bodies of non-intelligent creatures and make them "more." The Eagles are HUGE. Huan can speak. Ents move about and speak. Melkor appears to do something similar with Carcaroth where "he became filled with a devouring spirit."

Unlike Bombadil those creatures or spirits are explained, Bombadil is not an ent neither is he an maia. That much is certain...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.
I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age. I always assumed it was Ëonwë himself who did the deed, although given how much Morgoth had weakened himself by that point he may be a bad example.

I doubt Morgoth would have dared to personally fight by that point, bereft of his minions. After all, it was only the fear of being humiliated and losing their respect that moved him to accept Fingolfin, a mere Elf's challenge. Morgoth was a coward at heart.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I'm not averse to the theory that Ungoliant was a being whose origin lay in the Discord of Melkor; evidently there were beings which operated outside the conventional Vala-Maia-Elf-Man "power structure" of Arda.

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

[Ulvenok]

Given that none of the Valar fought in the Host of the West during the War of Wrath surely someone of sub-Valar stature must have been the one to personally best Morgoth at the end of the First Age.

I don't think he fought at all, all his minions were destroyed or fled then they cut off his legs and used his crown as a collar and threw him out of the world. He was never defeated or killed just subdued and that most likely by the other valar. I find it hard to believe that elves or maias would be able to cut off his legs and turn his iron crown into a collar. It just seems unlikely...

I'm in favor of the idea that Ungoliant and Tom Bomadil were possibly kindred spirits; both Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar, acting apart from them in pursuit of different motives.

It's a bit hard to put them in that ainu category, because they have both shown to be far more powerful than ordinary maias like Sauron and Melian etc. The valar are specifically those who sang the great music and neither Ungoliant or Tom were with them. One can imagine them to be similar to the valar but not really them, because they are numbered.

EDIT: I don't remember the exact phrase but I think at some point there were "other" beings or spirits that Eru sent into arda. It's very foggy, but I remember it clearly. (Not named)

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think he fought at all, all his minions were destroyed or fled then they cut off his legs and used his crown as a collar and threw him out of the world. He was never defeated or killed just subdued and that most likely by the other valar. I find it hard to believe that elves or maias would be able to cut off his legs and turn his iron crown into a collar. It just seems unlikely...

I can believe that he didn't put up much of a fight by that point but someone did cut off his legs when he was caught in the depths of Angband. Morgoth actually was killed, although it was after being brought back to the West. According to the Professor in Morgoth's Ring he was "made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates". Obviously Mandos, another Vala, did that. By that point the Valar did have the power to kill him, albeit only because he had so thoroughly confined himself to a single body as a consequence of his own evil. As I say, Morgoth is a bad example because of how drastically his personal power was reduced over the course of the First Age (from being the mightiest of the Ainur to being relatively weak in comparison to the Valar). In that way it doesn't seem to me that it would be beyond the capacity of Ëonwë, mightiest of the Maiar, to at least be the one who subdued him beneath Angband. He was the Captain of the Host of the West so presumably there was no one of higher spiritual statue (ie any Valar) present. By comparison the Professor writes in Morgoth's Ring that it took Manwë himself to subdue Melkor at the end of the Siege of Utumno.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

It's a bit hard to put them in that ainu category, because they have both shown to be far more powerful than ordinary maias like Sauron and Melian etc. The valar are specifically those who sang the great music and neither Ungoliant or Tom were with them. One can imagine them to be similar to the valar but not really them, because they are numbered.

While all the Valar were of the Ainur (as were the Maiar), it wasn't only they who took part in the Music. Some of the Ainur remained with Ilúvatar outside Arda.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Silmarillion Ainulindalë

The Valar were only the greatest of those known to the Elves. They did not know the number of the Maia.

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

[Morsul the Dark]

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

[Ulvenok]

Additionally, Bombadil at least was apparently not the match of Sauron. That was seemingly the consensus reached at the Council of Elrond when the idea of sending the Ring to him was rejected.

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it...Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

I also wonder what Gandalf said to Tom before he left for the undying lands. Whatever he said would most likely reveal Tom's real identity and status in relation to Gandalf. Then we have the dream that Frodo had when he sailed for Valinor, that reminded him of how he felt when sleeping at Bombadil's house. This also is a sign of Bombadil's divine status in the world. Anyway I still have a small recollection of there being some phrase speaking of "other" spirits that eru sent into arda unlike the valar and maiar.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Yet she trapped Melkor the greatest of the Valar in her nets and made him squeal for his Balrog army, no sense.

Of course it makes sense. Melkor is on a self destructive path where he divests himself of his own power. He becomes lesser and lesser over time. Read Morgoth's Ring in the History of Middle-earth series. It explains a good deal about how the greatest of the Valar is brought low.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

None can defeat a valar, Melkor was never defeated just thrown out of the world. So no a maia wouldn't be able to defeat a valar.

Melkor was defeated.. not destroyed. Yes.. it is a case of semantics, but an important one. Melkor was defeated first just before the Elves arrived. He was defeated and imprisoned. He was defeated again after the War of Wrath and put forth from the world. Ungoliant had him all but beaten until the Balrogs saved him. Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

I don't think it ever stated that she was corrupted into his service by him. Ungoliant's origins is like Bombadil's unknown. It'd be quite strange if Ungoliant was just another maia that Melkor first corrupted into his service, then she turns on him...

Bombadil IS a complete unknown (and therefore fun to discuss). However, when I put something in quotes, that means the statement is a QUOTATION. The statement about UNgoliant comes straight from the Silmarillion... Chapter 8 "Of The Darkening Of Valinor".... second paragraph... a little more than half way through.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

so what I'm getting is... Bombadil is Cthulu

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

[Ulvenok]

"from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service."

So you're saying she is an maia then, who managed to drain varda's wells dry and suck the sap out of the trees. And confuse the host of the valar that hunted them (Tulkas even), use unlight whatever that is to cloak Melkor and her when travelling through Valinor. And then to top all of that, trap melkor in her net...trap a valar in her net. If she is an maia she has some extraordinaire abilities.

Heck, even a Noldor hurt him enough such that "the pain of his wounds could not be healed." SO I would say a Valar can easily be defeated... though not killed/destroyed.

He chose to duel with Fingolfin, Fingolfin was said to be the strongest, most steadfast, and most valiant of Finwë's sons, and some have named him the greatest warrior of all the Children of Ilúvatar. If he had not chosen to duel with him he would have been able to make short work of him, he eventually also did kill him. I'm sure if he had been able to he would have escaped from Ungoliant himself but he couldn't, that he didn't points towards Ungoliant's above maia status in my opinion.

Not to say an vala would not be able to corrupt another vala like being close to himself in power. Also that quote:

from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted into his service.

I think one has to put it into context since before it it's said something like "but it's said among the eldar" or whatever. It's by no means absolutely true, It'd be nice to have some kind of clear distinction between maia and vala.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Elf_NFB

Nah... Cthulhu doesn't dance.

What color are Cthulhu's boots?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

That wasn't because "Bombadil was apparently no match for Sauron", they chose not to send him the ring because Gandalf said he would probably lose it. Bombadil has shown to be more powerful than any maia we have heard of in any of Tolkien's writings. His manipulation of the one ring is his greatest feat, any other maia like Gandalf for example would sucumb to it and become very powerful wearing it but Tom just played around with it and even made it dissapear. This feat alone is in my opinion proof enough that he would make short work of Sauron.

Bombadil was expressly said to have no power over the Ring, which was the same as saying he had no power over Sauron. It was said at the Council that Sauron could not be defied by Bombadil alone. "Would not" was a consideration, though Gandalf indeed thought Tom would take the Ring if he was begged to do so. , but could not is the more important point.
The Ring had no power over Tom because he had no inherent desire for power he did not possess already; he was satisfied with his state of affairs. Gandalf said Bombadil was "his own master", which to me is simply a statement that Tom's purpose in Arda was unique, not necessarily a measure of his inherent power.
That of course is conjectural, but so is a great deal of discussion on Tom.

Originally Posted by Ulvenok

Oh that is a nice quote, "but other, and among them many of the greatest" this doesn't leave out the possability that there were still great valar close to Melkor and Manwe in power that never entered it. However Tom was in the world before the valar entered it, still I find both Ungoliant and Tom to most likely belong to these who never entered it yet did.

That's all I was saying. Tom and Ungoliant seem to be similar in that both are obviously beings with great spiritual power, each having motives and purposes that appear to have been their own. Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar and Maia would seem to fill the bill.

[Ulvenok]

Bombadil was expressly said to have no power over the Ring, which was the same as saying he had no power over Sauron.

Note that the ring had no power over him either, so by that sort of reasoning Sauron would have no power over Tom either. However as important as Gandalf's words are on Tom, they are clearly different and Tom making the ring dissapear completely makes it seem even though Gandalf says otherwise, Tom had some sort of influence over the ring.

It was said at the Council that Sauron could not be defied by Bombadil alone.

His reason for not "being able" to take on Sauron alone does not have to be because he has not the ability to do so. He won't leave his old forest either, doesn't mean that he cannot. Also they say Tom wouldn't understand the importance of the ring, one could draw parallels between this phrase and Manwe's unability to understand evil. Any ordinary maia would understand the importance of the ring and also be influenced by it. Tom seems to be a more abstract entity more like the great powers than any other maia we know of.

but could not is the more important point.

Maybe the reason he could not is the same reason why Oromë "could not" ride into mordor and take care of Sauron.

The Ring had no power over Tom because he had no inherent desire for power he did not possess already; he was satisfied with his state of affairs. Gandalf said Bombadil was "his own master", which to me is simply a statement that Tom's purpose in Arda was unique, not necessarily a measure of his inherent power.

Why use the word "master" then.

Noun

A man who has people working for him, esp. servants or slaves.
A ship or boat with a specified number of masts: "a three-master".

Adjective
Having or showing very great skill or proficiency.
Verb
Acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).

Since none is working for Tom, Gandalf's use of master can't be a noun in which case it's an adjective which seems to suggest that it indeed was a statement made on his inherent power, also Goldberry saying that "he is" also has to be taken into account maybe more so than what Gandalf said. Purpose really never plays into it in my opinion, he seems to have little purpose if any at all.

That's all I was saying. Tom and Ungoliant seem to be similar in that both are obviously beings with great spiritual power, each having motives and purposes that appear to have been their own. Ainu who entered Arda separately from the Valar and Maia would seem to fill the bill.

The ainur were both maia and vala. What I'm arguing for is that both have shown feats of "spiritual power" that exceeds any other maia we've heard of in the books therefore have to be more vala than maia. However the valar are specifically those who entered arda, there are none else which means labeling Tom and Ungoliant is tricky.

I still recall reading at some point Eru sending "other" spirits into arda before the valar or at the same time as them that are not accounted for. I don't think it's the quote that you gave me. I read it somewhere at some point but I can't remember.

[Lalwendë]

See, this is precisely why I love Tom and Ungoliant so much. They can't be pinned down and assigned a 'place' like most other Tolkien characters, and I also think this is why he left them as he did. He does it 'cause it teases us....

I can also find something new each time I read about them.

If we take it that Eru is omnipotent then he must have created Tom and Ungoliant as much as he created the Valar, or at the very least have created the Valar who created them, if you are of the belief that they are like Dwarves or Ents, a subcreation. One thing I always find interesting about Eru is that alongside making all the beautiful and 'good' things, he also creates Melkor and Ungoliant, and being omnipotent and all-knowing, he knows what they are about. Both Tom and Ungoliant seem to have entered Arda before the Valar did, Tom as he states that he is oldest, and Ungoliant because of this:

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.

No clue as to whether she is 'lesser' than Melkor, but he is able to make her his servant, and she is able to refuse to be his servant. She isn't even a spider - as she "took shape of a spider".

Incidentally, the following quote may explain some of the more unusual beings in Middle-earth:

the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Iluvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.

[Elf_NFB]

Originally Posted by blantyr

What color are Cthulhu's boots?

What else? A Colour (sic) Out Of Space.

[R.]

I personally believe Ungiliant is just a powerful Maiar it is said that some Maiar where near as powerful as Valar, But Tom is a different matter all together he's ust a mystery.

[Avanti]

strange

he didn't mention them

because

they do exist

i have met them

numerous times