Gollum's boat??

[Túrin Turambar]

How could Gollum have a boat while he lived in a cave? and where did he get it from?

[burrahobbit]

Have you ever seen a ship in a bottle? Man, those things are crazy.

[Isilmëiel]

An old shield of an orc or someone an orc killed?
And yes, those ships in the bottles are insane...how do they do it?

[Meoshi]

Folding ships.

And if a river(or even a small stream) flowed into the cave, it would bring driftwood.

[Pukel-Man]

Since Smeagol originally dwelt on the banks of the Great River before he was corrupted by the ring, it is probable that he became learned in the skills of boat-making. It would not be hard for him to use bone, skin and sinew to construct a small boat.

[Gorwingel]

He lived there in that cave for about 500 years, he had a lot of time on his hands. When he was not spending time with his Precious, he probably got board. So he decided to do something constructive. Thus building a boat. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Gorwingel ]

[lathspell]

The boat probably lay there already for the Orcs uses, maybe for if they needed to get across the lake in haste. I think I recall in the Hobbit that the entrance where Bilbo came to the lake wasn't the only entrance to the lake. So, maybe the Orcs used the lake as a shortcut.

[Findegil]

No, it was quiet the other way around: The goblin-tunnel bilbo used was a dead-end since the goblins stopped tunneling when they reached the lake.
But I find it very probable that Golum found the boot there, left by the Goblins that had once explored the lake before they decieded to stop the tunneling this way.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aragost]

I think Pukel-Man is right, Gollum could have easily put together a boat made ofbones and ork skin.

[Birdland]

The boat was made from...the skull of a Balrog!

[alatar]

Truly, if it were an actual boat and not just some floating collection of wood, it has no place in that cave. Why?

• Orcs - When did orcs become Captains Courageous? Weren't the rafts used to cross the Anduin at the edge of the Third Age somewhat novel?

• Smeagol - He obviously didn't bring it with him, as typically one does not take a boat when mountain climbing/worming through small holes in the ground.

• Gollum - Where would he get the materials to make a boat? Again, I can go with a collection of wooden beams lashed together, but boat? Timber and pitch couldn't have been too readily available in the goblin hive. And what tools?

• Gollum again - Anyway, is Gollum now the apprentice of Cirdan?

Mail-order catalogue?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Birdland

The boat was made from...the skull of a Balrog!

And its sails were made from balrog wings!

Seriously, though, it could have been a coracle, made from skins and willow wands and fat.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And its sails were made from balrog wings!

Seriously, though, it could have been a coracle, made from skins and willow wands and fat.

Do you think that the goblins threw things that they didn't need into the cave such as broken tools or unneeded things that Smeagol could make a boat out of. His boat was most likely made out of a bunch of random junk that he found.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Driftwood? This begs the question; why didn't it rot? Where did it drift from (as driftwood floats on the surface) Was there an underground river that led out of the cave?

Anyway, who cares.

[Gwathagor]

I like the coracle concept.

[skip spence]

Aren't you forgetting that Gollum had an invisibility ring? Anything the Goblins had he could have easily snatched, and they probably did have all the nessesary raw materials for a simple boat, even one made out of wood. I don't find it unlikely he had the skills to construct one either, since he was born near Anduin into a people most likely with boat-building skills. That he was an experienced river-man is also demonstrated by his ability to follow the fellowship down Anduin with only driftwood to keep him afloat. Someone not used to water and boats would hardly be able to do that I think.

[alatar]

So Gollum, in his boredom and using the One Ring, stole materials from the Goblins that he might sail the seven seas of his lake inside a cave. What did he even need the boat for? Hauling up his big catch? Hunting Moby Dick?

Was it like a ferry that he used to go to and fro from his island, and also a security feature that kept the Goblins from sailing over to find him? The more I think about it, the more hokey it all sounds (but the Hobbit is a little odd anyway).

And I care. My day hinges on this issue...

[skip spence]

Hokey? Nah!

I can easily picture him setting up a small workshop somewhere down in the dungeon. There, under a beam of pale moonlight coming from a hole in the roof, he would carve out oars from one piece of wood, cut logs into planks, plane them, and then nail them together. He would then have to tar his vessel to make it watertight and perhaps add a few features for comfort, such as a seat and a storage space with a hatch. Easy.

[alatar]

I'm becoming more unhinged...

It's surprising that he uses a log when pursuing the Fellowship down the Anduin, as I assume then that he couldn't steal a boat nor build something while he waited for the Fellowship to leave Lothlorien.

It's just striking - at least today - that an addict like Gollum is in some way shown to be a builder of something. Maybe he had a little hut on his island, a little mushroom garden just outside, lined with a fishbone fence next to the shiny stone pathway that led down to the dock on his lake.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm becoming more unhinged...

Glad to be of service.

It's surprising that he uses a log when pursuing the Fellowship down the Anduin, as I assume then that he couldn't steal a boat nor build something while he waited for the Fellowship to leave Lothlorien.

Oh but if he built one of his trademark boats he'd be caught, surely. A floating log among others doesn't catch anyone's attention, making it the perfect vessel for this purpose.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I can easily picture him setting up a small workshop somewhere down in the dungeon. There, under a beam of pale moonlight coming from a hole in the roof, he would carve out oars from one piece of wood, cut logs into planks, plane them, and then nail them together. He would then have to tar his vessel to make it watertight and perhaps add a few features for comfort, such as a seat and a storage space with a hatch. Easy.

I can picture it- Gollum the mad scientist.


Yes, I always imagined it as a sort of coracle (but maybe it's just because I read a book that had coracles in just before-And when you think things when you're 7/8, they sort of stick, unless you have reason to change your view)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I can picture it- Gollum the mad scientist.

Pet peeve, but not all scientists are mad (regardless of how they are portrayed in the media).

And Gollum chose a log because it was convenient. He, as an addict, was only thinking about reacquiring the One Ring - he'd have swum if needed - and so I don't see him as the constructive type.

In the entire time we read about Gollum, from the Shire to Rivendell to the Anduin to the Crack, what tool does Gollum use or what thing does he construct? To me, he simply lives off of the land, wears shorts (for our modesty) and carries nothing, makes nothing...with the exception of a plan to net two hobbitses.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

Pet peeve, but not all scientists are mad (regardless of how they are portrayed in the media).

I didn't say that. But Gollum is addicted, which makes him sort of mad (well, not really, but he does act like that- thats the effect that the One Ring has on him).

edit: perhaps the One Ring secretes addictive substances.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I didn't say that. But Gollum is addicted, which makes him sort of mad (well, not really, but he does act like that- thats the effect that the One Ring has on him).

So when you think of homicidal possibly cannibalistic addicts, you think "mad scientist?" It just keeps getting better...

I'm just ribbing ya.

edit: perhaps the One Ring secretes addictive substances.

Probably not. Bilbo and Frodo surely touched others after fondling the Ring, and these others weren't even mildly affected - Sam surely would have been. On the other hand, maybe Frodo and Boromir shook hands...hmm.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I do not see any reason to why Gollum should not have a boat, I agree that there is some odd things about the arangement. . .but hey, Beorn or even Elrond's living arangements was a bit odd.

If it really was just a log why would Tolkien write "boat" ?
I know that is not a very inventive argument, but one I would like answered non the less.

Also we know that orcs avoided Gollums cave and I doubt that it could be spottet when it was on his island, so there seem to have been little risk in having such a boat.

Gollum has the ring for 500 years, I assume that his personality has undergone some changes during this period of time and yet some people think that they know all his personality based on those relatively few years from when he looses the ring til he dies.

Also he seems to have the background for boat building.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

If it really was just a log why would Tolkien write "boat" ?
I know that is not a very inventive argument, but one I would like answered non the less.

I agree that it's a boat and not a log nor a raft. it just seems out of place, like saying that Bilbo and Gollum sat on a leather couch during their riddle game.

Just think about it: a creature like Gollum, without two rocks to rub together, has - and seemingly has made! - a boat.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I do not find it odd that he has made a boat. . .it seems like a practical thing to make, it would surely make it easier for him to survive.

What i find really odd is that he seems to have created nothing else. . .surely there would be other things that took equal or less skill to make, which could be useful to him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

What i find really odd is that he seems to have created nothing else. . .surely there would be other things that took equal or less skill to make, which could be useful to him.

Exactly! That's what's missing (and thank you for identifying that). Gollum has a boat, and, seemingly, nothing else. Kinda what I was alluding to before. He catches fishes with his hands, goes after Bilbo (whom he thinks has fled) without stopping first to pick up a weapon or other artifact, but other than the Ring and boat - nothing.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

How do we know that HE made it though? Like someone mentioned above, the goblins may have had to use some sort of craft to ferry themselves across the lake at some point. Maybe Gollum didn't build it, but came upon it and took it?

[Nazgûl-king]

In The Hobbit it mentions that the Great Goblin at times sent Goblins to catch fish from Gollum's lake and that they never returned. Perhaps the goblins came to the lake with a boat and Gollum snuck up on them and killed them and kept the boat.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

In The Hobbit it mentions that the Great Goblin at times sent Goblins to catch fish from Gollum's lake and that they never returned. Perhaps the goblins came to the lake with a boat and Gollum snuck up on them and killed them and kept the boat.

I think this idea if far more likely than bits of wood etc appearing in the lake and being fashioned into a crude boat. Its probably more likely than him building a coracle, but thats also quite feasible!

[Bêthberry]

What I like about the coracle hypthesis is the idea of Gollem paddling around in circles. Seems a fitting metaphor for one so bound by the Ring. Not that the celtic seafarers so paddled on their way West, of course.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

In The Hobbit it mentions that the Great Goblin at times sent Goblins to catch fish from Gollum's lake and that they never returned. Perhaps the goblins came to the lake with a boat and Gollum snuck up on them and killed them and kept the boat.

This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. Good job, Nazgul.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Maybe the Goblins did build the boat, but I doubt it.

First of all it would make more sence for gollum to build it as he could actually need one, I don't see why the Goblins would need it and if they did I think they would build more than one.

Also boat building was never the Goblins strong side, but the riverfolk on the other hand had some skill in this area. So Gollum would probably be better at boat building than the, not that this proves anything at all.

I also think that if the goblins was to explore a lake they would go more than one, at least two goblins would be required and if I remember correctly then Gollum was quite careful when it came to Goblins. I don't think he would dare fighting more than one at the time, even if he did have the ring.

[skip spence]

To carry on alatar's addict-analogy, which is fitting, I think Gollum would have been very different when he had the ring. Without it, all he could think of was the ring he was robbed of; every waking hour he would obsess about it, and he wouldn't have built anything unless he thought it could be of immidiate help in his quest to retain it.

With the ring in his possession his addiction would be satisfied, but he was far from happy. The hours must have been endless for him deep in the dungeon, far away from anything remotely plesant. He would have fantasized about getting rid of the ring, leaving the mountain and picking up his life again. Yet, this he could never do. Is it not possible then that he would channel this frustration and boredom into something like building a boat, in order to explore his lake and for convenience? After all, he had a curious mind, entering the dungeon partly in a quest to unravel the secrets at the roots of the mountain.

Edit: A lot of addicts are also very creative artists.

Anyway, there are lots of anachronistic and odd details in the Hobbit. It is simply not written as tightly as Tolkien's other works. Gollum's boat, however, is only slightly odd to me.

[Eönwë]

Maybe he made it out of the goblins' fire-wood (which he stole using the ring).