Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It’s come up again! The question of free will! Or: do they have a choice? Or: Gollum's oopsie at the Cracks. Or: it's all prophecy dude! Or: if you break the laws of free will, who will give you a ticket?

Time for a new poll!

EDIT I even gave a cop-out third choice this time, so don't come busting my chops for forcing you to make up your mind!

[davem]

All have freedom of thought but only Men have freedom of action. (Eru excepted, of course).

[Formendacil]

Of course there is free will...

Even if no one else has free will, Men do. Men are clearly granted this by Eru in the Ainulindale, the power to shape their fates amid the workings of the world.

I would say that the Elves have free will as well. Precisely HOW this is supposed to relate to destiny, I have no idea, but to my mind, it appears that the Elves MUST have free will.

As my prime example, I present Feanor. Feanor appears to have chosen, very definitely and angrily, to rebel against the Valar, lead his people to death and exile, and then betray most of them in the process.

Now, one COULD make the argument that Feanor was just doing was he was foresaid to do, but why then is he doomed to remain in Mandos- forever, when all other Elves are let go later? If he is doing what he is "destined", and thus has no free will, then he should not be punished, because he has no control in the matter. Not unlike the insanity plea, I suppose.

So Elves have free will. I have no idea how that works with fate, but that isn't the central issue on this thread.

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

So yes, Free Will exists. How it works, I am not sure...

[Bêthberry]

It's not free, Fordim. It comes at great cost. Just ask Frodo and Sam.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Good heavens, I'm the token dissenter.

Remember Gandalf's words to Frodo about Bilbo being "meant" to find the Ring, and that it would mean that Frodo is "meant" to have it also?

You can argue that Frodo had the choice any time to get rid of the Ring and I'll agree with you, but it was not in his character to do so. Even though he *could* get rid of the Ring, the Powers that got it to him knew that he wouldn't, which pretty much gets rid of the idea that he might have tossed it away.

Sam had the "free will" to leave Frodo, but his love and promise ensured that he never would.

Eowyn's "free will" got her to the place where the Witch King was during the battle, allowing her to kill him, but there was a prophecy made (my thoughts on prophecies are already sketchy) which was then fulfilled.

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Yes because the person can fail. The prophesy can fail to come about. As you said Sam wouldn't leave Frodo because of his love for him but the point is that he could leave him, as you stated. This of course is free will. Simply because Frodo was meant to receive the ring didn't make it so he had to fulfill the task. He had his agency to turn back at anytime he wanted. And in fact he did at the very end. He exercised his free will to take the ring as his own.

[alatar]

Not sure how this fits into the Tolkien world, but I'll throw this in. Presumably the whole universe is governed by 'laws.' Planets, stars and solar systems just don't run around willy-nilly; their behavior is governed by laws like gravity etc. There were all of those laws that Newton 'passed' that proscribed what an object (whether at rest or in motion) can or cannot do.

Organisms on this big ball of rock on which we live are also governed by laws. One might say that it's all in the genes, and that when you make a choice, well, you are acting not as a free agent but as a product of what is encoded in your DNA in response to something in your immediate environment.

I like reading, especially Tolkien. My biological father and eldest brother are also avid readers (yet not Tolkien fans), and as I was not raised by said parent...it could be genetic. I was exposed to Tolkien via the school library whereas my father and brother weren't (or most likely they too would have read Tolkien).

Then there are other laws that govern one's behavior. Surely you felt the urge now and again to scream, "PJ is God!" while swinging a homemade replica of Gandalf's staff around in the air in a crowded movie theater while watching LOTR, but there are social mores and also legal issues to consider that (hopefully) governed and possibly restrained your behavior.

I think that Isaac Asimov wrote in the Foundation trilogy scifi novels that societies' actions could be predicted and therefore were deterministic. All that you needed were large enough numbers and you could use math/statistics to determine what people (not individuals) would do. My guess is that once you gather some priors on persons, you then could determine what 'choice' they would make. Isn't this what marketing firms do when they gather information?

At the quantum level, however, the universe isn't deterministic but probabilistic, meaning that you can't know exactly what will occur but can make some really good guesses.

So, whether it's Newtonian physical laws, my genes, my environment or simply the most probable action, I just had to post.

Anyway, assuming the Middle Earth world is similar to what I have above, then I would say that chances are if Frodo had not taken the Ring, then maybe we would have seen "Fatty Lives" spray-painted in American subways. Maybe if Eowyn would have been lost in the initial charge of the Rohirrim, we might have had a site praising Ioreth or her sister. If Frodo or Eowyn would have fallen, then either someone would have jumped into their places or we would not have had the chance to read LOTR as Sauron would control all printing presses and so we'd be stuck reading Robert Jordan of "Wheel of Time"...ahhh...fame.

Eru was merciful.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Aw, I wanted a Favourite Hobbit poll.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

What makes me question the idea of Elvish freedom of action is their constant looking backwards. Even Feanor's rebellion is inspired by this:

“In Cuivienen sweet was the water under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk”

He is looking backwards, not forwards. He doesn't seek change to make things different - he doesn't want to go forward into the future, but back to the past. all his desire is to make things as they were. His freedom of thought is limited to working out the best way to undo the changes that have occurred. the Valar, in the same way, only seek to make mainfest the Music. None of them are looking to make new things. They don't look to the future in the way that Men do, & this is clearly because they can't think in the way Men do. Whether Men realise it or not, they have a freedom to act beyond the Music & the constraints it lays on all others.

Elves, Valar & Maiar can only think within certain limits - psychological as well as physical limits. The Music constrains not simply what they may do, but even what they can think about. Their desire to 'embalm' the world around them is ultimately a desire to have things a certain way - the way the Music says it should be. the 'wrongness' in the world that they percieve is its veering from the archetype. They desire only to stop change, & change is mainly instigated by Men.....

[Mithalwen]

I would say that Men have more freewill than anyone else because of the Gift of Iluvatar to Men. For onceI have the book (I have not forgotten that when werewolves and RPG commitments allow, and I have a death wish, I have to explain my loathing of Luthien )

Sil. "Of the beginning of days" "He (Iluvatar) willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and have no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;"

So Men get cadenzas the rest follow the score. No wonder the elves are passive by the end of the third age.....

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Without freewill there would have not have been a story, or at least a deadly boring one. Illuvatar's wish and will for the world and the beings therein does not go unchallanged. But the marvelous thing is that he can accomodate to allow for the occasional misguided individual's freewill. Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.

[Legolas]

I started a thread on freewill and evil here that might be of interest; in the initial post I provide a lot of quotes from Tolkien concerning freewill.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Fea

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Adding to what mormegil said, a prophecy is not specific. Usually it does not go beyond saying that X event will happen. It doesn't say who will make it come to pass, or how exactly it will happen.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Cheers for the link lindil, I'd never read that thread before. I particularly enjoy Kalessin's post, second from the top. He/She said:

"It seems clear to me that Tolkien never resolved this level of philosophical problem, or indeed attempted to."

He was writing awesome books dealing in very difficult problems and there are always going to be people picking holes everywhere. Just think: Is there a contradiction in the mythology and if so, is this a negative?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

"Is there Free will in Middle-earth?

Yes.

No.

Probably both."


You're confusing me Fordim, stop confusing me!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

Not exactly. You can't have both fate and free will. If you've got a fate (like Turin, or Aragorn), then you can make as many choices as you want, but you'll still end up having to face this fate. Especially Turin, come to think of it. "Master of Doom, by doom mastered." It didn't matter what choices he made, he couldn't escape his doom. It completely negates the idea of free will if half the occurences of your life are already plotted out for you. You can't say "I don't want to experience this" if it's guaranteed to happen by the Allmighty. You don't have a say in the matter any more.

When I was a bit younger, I had a certain "let's not call it prayer... mantra's a better word for it".

Thank you for free will, if that exists, for making life interesting,

And thank you for fate, if that exists, for making life easy.

[alatar]

As Eru is omniscient, one might think that there is no free will. Plus, as the Music was sung before Arda was made, it would also seem that everything has been plotted/doomed/fated.

Not sure that I agree.

My other favorite author, Frank Herbert (of the Dune series) explored the free will/fate/god question. He posited that a god may want to allow true 100% free will just to relieve the boredom. It would be like watching the same movie night after night - wouldn't it be cool if one time, while watching ROTK EE, Gandalf's staff doesn't break? But I digress.

Anyway, could not Eru have set up the 'rules of the game' (stuff falls down not up, time moves forward, etc), created the original set of actors (valar, maia, elves, men, etc), established his own plan (introduction of the elves at X year, men to show up later, etc) and then sit back and watch how it all plays out?

The evidence gleaned from the actions of Melkor (rebellion), Aule (dwarves), men, etc, would point to free will. Now, it's still Eru's game, and at any time he can change the rules, dabble, or destroy the whole show as he desires. The actors therein can do whatever they feel is the correct choice, but Eru, being the smart god that he is, knows that with some probability that certain outcomes are assured.

Think about it. In the beginning we have only one vala go sour. What if more went against Eru? Would Arda have become so lopsidedly bad that Eru's game would have been spoiled and so he would have had to start over.

Hmmm. What evidence do we have that this time is the first and only time that Eru played the game? What if he tried some other combinations, gathered data, experimented more then finally got a game set up that would provide maximum entertainment/glory while also maximizing the free will of the actors therein?

Gods, being without limits by definition, can do these kind of things...

[Durelin]

Yes, there is free will.

What would the point be if there wasn't? What kind of story would LotR be? What would Aragorn, Frodo, Boromir, Smeagol, or any character matter if they did not have a choice when it came to their destinies? If Frodo was destined to take the Ring to Mordor, then what is there to admire in his character? If he didn't choose to be the hero, if he was simply forced by destiny or whatever/whoever, does he have any real strength of character at all? The same goes for Aragorn and accepting his kinglyness. If he had no choice, where's his strength and majesty that we all can admire? And what about Boromir: was he simply destined to be desirous of the ring? If so, then what need is there for him to feel guilt at all? Where's the human struggle?!

And I could never accept the fact that Smeagol had to kill Deagol and become the horrible wretch of Gollum...

And now I think of Galadriel and her little temptation. She had a choice. She held a great power, and any true power can be used for both good or evil (though really there's no happy medium). What would the point be if she didn't have the option of using it to make herself powerful, and thus with rather dark intentions? It wouldn't be a true power, as the highest power will lie at the peak of a mountain, at a dangerous height, where it is easy to fall.

No free will, no choice... I want my human struggle!



-Durelin

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm not saying that I don't want free will. Heck... I really, really want it. More than you can guess. I'm just saying that I don't see how you can possibly have both free will AND fate. One negates the other.

[Durelin]

You can choose your own fate.

It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice.

Perhaps Illuvatar put a big flashy arrow pointing to whichever door led Frodo to taking on his quest.

You ever heard your mom tell you, 'You make a better door than a window' while standing in front of the TV? Yeah, apply that to this whole door thing too and then we'll really have some fun.

I expect Frodo could've chosen window number 17 as an escape route.

Edit: **Disclaimer**Durelin is simply amusing herself**Disclaimer**

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I really don’t think that just because something seems bound to happen that it over shadows free will. Neither do I think that just because a prediction comes true that a person is predestined. Some types of personalities are inclined to follow a course that is predictable, and some are influenced by what is expected of them (or what they expect of themselves). This does not mean that their choices are useless, or that they are confined by the will of another.

[the phantom]

Forgive me if I am just repeating things that others have said, but I have barely read the thread and I won't have time to for the next week or so (I'm on vacation and I only have about five minutes on my cousin's computer before I have to run off and do something touristy).

I think you can have free will and fate at the same time.

Let's say that there is something that needs to happen in Middle Earth- something that is supposed to happen.

So, Eru decides to take care of it. In Tolkien's world, people's spirits/souls come from Eru, so He is the one that determines their personality, nature, and such.

So if he needs a certain task to be completed, he can simply tweak someone so that they will end up doing the task of their own free will.

The person has free will and can choose whatever they want, it's just that Eru already knows exactly what they are going to choose because he knows what sort of spirit he gave them and how events would shape their decision.

So if Eru wants something done, he designs someone with a certain blend of character that will bring about the desired result.

If you know what someone is going to do it does not mean he doesn't have free will- it just means that you know what he is going to do with his free will ahead of time.

Make sense?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nope.

[the phantom]

Then read it again.

[Kath]

No phantom I don't get it. You say that there is free will because they can choose the path they go down but then you say that Eru can tweak their souls to make them go down a certain path. Then surely it's impossible to do both?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Durelin

You can choose your own fate.

It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice.

Could it be that for each 'choice' there are a specific number of doors. Each door is associated with some probability (sorry if I start sounding like a math teacher). So, for example, there could be 10 doors that Frodo could have walked through when he was making the decision regarding what to do with the Ring. Door #1 is to throw it away, Door #2 is to give it as a gift to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins when the Nazgul are about to show up, Door #3 is to make Gandalf to take the Ring, Door #4 is to encourage Sam to marry Rosie, and just doesn't Frodo have the perfect ring for the occassion, and Door #5 is to give it to one the dwarves traveling through the Shire and make a bet with them that they can't unmake it (bet gold).

Doors #5-#10 are all associated with taking the Ring to the Fire, but vary on the details. Whereas #5 may be to leave immediately without Sam, #10 may be to leave sometime in the future, preferably after Frodo beats the Gerontius Took in birthdays.

Now, Frodo is a Baggins, meaning that he's a bit contrary (i.e. nuts), and he was selected by Bilbo (a bit more nuts) to carry the Ring, meaning that Bilbo saw something in Frodo that would allow for this privilege/curse. Frodo had a deep love for the Shire and its inhabitants, and also had a sense of duty. He had the companionship of Sam, which also helped shape his character. Gandalf surely played some part in shaping Frodo's character and decisions, as he held the Ring of Fire, loved the Shire and Middle earth (and wanted to save it), and also had a clear sense of duty - Gandalf didn't go off studying birds or shacking up in some tower with a copy of "Famous Rings of Middle Earth" coffee table tome. Frodo, seeing Gandalf as an example, may have wanted to be like the wizard. Plus Gandalf was a friend of Bilbo, whom Frodo loved.

So for Frodo, doors #1 and #2 were out completely (would have a very low probability) as choices, as are #4 and #5. Door #3 was a reasonable choice as it allowed Frodo to save the Shire and save himself the hassle, but Gandalf would not allow it and if Frodo were to sneak the Ring onto Gandalf's person, when Gandalf found out, he would be a bit upset (that is if Gandalf didn't raze the Shire along with the rest of Middle Earth as the new Dark-Grey Lord), and we know that Frodo respected the wizard and his greater abilities - not someone with which to mess.

Doors 5 through 10 were therefore more probable choices. Frodo would need some time to torque himself up, and so #5 was out. Door 10 was somewhat reasonable, but I think that Gandalf had Frodo concerned enough not to forget the task completely.

So the even more probable doors were 6, 7 and 8, which we can assume vary somewhat in the lesser details. We can never know which of these three that he chose. And after that set of doors, Frodo went onto the next ten (with blue cloak, red cloak, no cloak, etc)...

Anyway, so my long-winded point is that Frodo had free will to choose whichever door from the set, but as Frodo was the person that he was, the actual number of choices for him were in reality limited.

Fated? I don't think so, but some events have higher (almost certain) probabilities based on what we know.

I'm going to go and have my brain cleaned now - all of that mathematical thinking (more than was posted thankfully) has just made a mess of the place.

Edit - I think that my thoughts crossed with the phantom's...or not.

[the phantom]

Alatar explained things pretty well.

You say that there is free will because they can choose the path they go down

Yes.

but then you say that Eru can tweak their souls to make them go down a certain path

Yes.

Let me explain.

First, everyone must have a certain nature. How Eru decides what nature to give someone I don't know (perhaps it's mostly random?), but in certain situations it seems that He adds a little something to someone's nature to ensure that they are more likely to take a certain path.

Also, keep in mind that Eru can see what path their particular nature will lead them down no matter what nature they have.

So it doesn't matter if someone is fated to do a great task or not- Eru can already see the choices they will make. Therefore someone who was "fated" to do a great task was not given any less free will than the guy living next door to him who never did anything. They both had a certain personality and Eru could forsee exactly what their personality and circumstances would lead them to do.

I don't believe that knowing what someone is going to do ahead of time means that the person does not have free will to choose.

[Durelin]

I always just invision one of those chart things you see for tournaments. Like this, only much bigger, obviously...

[drigel]

Nice illustration. I always need to visualize.

This reminds me of L'Engle. We are trying to reconcile a 2 dimensional creature in a 3 dimension universe, and so forth. A line can traverse left and right, back and forth, but will never know up and down. But it's there

[alatar]

Originally Posted by drigel

Nice illustration. I always need to visualize.

This reminds me of L'Engle. We are trying to reconcile a 2 dimensional creature in a 3 dimension universe, and so forth. A line can traverse left and right, back and forth, but will never know up and down. But it's there

And keep in mind that the lines can intersect in places too, meaning that divergent choices can still lead to the same place over time.

Assume that upon meeting Gollum that Sam and Frodo decide not to take Smeagol with them, but after getting lost in the Dead Marshes, reconsider and then accept Smeagol's guidance (who had been stalking them as he always does).

Assume that the decision tree is an n-dimensional spiderweb - whatever that means...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fordim is forcing us to make up our minds, because 'Probably both' means 'Yes'.

So you are just sooooo alone Fea.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Ah, but Fea's not alone. I see that our beloved pollster has ticked in on the side of NO without comment here.

What say you, dear Mr Hedgethistle? Is this some lightly held belief or one of Blake's 'reptiles of the mind', to quote davem's signature?

[mark12_30]

Mr. Hedgethistle is simply stating the paradigm for his threaded realm. That lidless pug, wreathed in flame, is watching you, Mrs. Bracegirdle. He has already decided your fate.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Also, keep in mind that Eru can see what path their particular nature will lead them down no matter what nature they have.

So it doesn't matter if someone is fated to do a great task or not- Eru can already see the choices they will make. Therefore someone who was "fated" to do a great task was not given any less free will than the guy living next door to him who never did anything. They both had a certain personality and Eru could forsee exactly what their personality and circumstances would lead them to do.

I wonder, would or could Eru, as supreme creator, create a perilous realm that would enable him to experience that unexpected twist of fate called eucatastrophe, which I would think is the unexpected consequence of choice or choices? Would he need or want that jolt of surprise which Tolkien says is the proper state of man in the fairey realm?

If his own creation cannot allow him that, I guess I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for him. Existence must be rather boringly predicatable then, if predictions are possible for someone who sees all time at once and knows all. Or maybe he is just so busy knowing everything in his state of perfection (I assume perfection is the state of Eru, although I could be wrong) that such mundane features which stimulate those with the gift of mortality are not necessary for him? Maybe the thrill of eucatastrophe is like a petit mort for mankind, a rehearsal for the really big shew (paraphrasing old Ed Sullivan here) and so is something Eru doesn't require?

In other words, is free will in Middle earth necessary for Eru's pleasure in surveying his creation or does he prefer the monotony of always seeing his creation turn out exactly as he wants?

[the phantom]

That is an interesting thought, BB.

Perhaps Eru holds all the cards but chooses not to always look at them? Maybe He sits back and watches things unfold and shields Himself from His future knowledge except for in times when it is necessary?

Or perhaps He is somehow capable of knowing what is going to happen and being surprised by it at the same time?

Who knows? We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.

It's possible that if Eru himself answered the free will question we would lack the capacity to understand the explanation.

Well, except me of course.

[Durelin]

We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.

A being created by one who does, and formed through words we understand. 'Tis always the most interesting and bewildering part to me.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

OK, so why have I voted in the "no" camp (other than to rub shoulders with the lovely Feanor, that is)....

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

This is clearly not the case in Middle-Earth. In the world of Eru, one does have choice, but it is extremely limited -- do what Eru/Providence commands or demands of you (the "good") or don't. And even then, choice is limited insofar as the Will or Eru or the Providential Plan will still work out to its conclusion.

Throughout LotR, for example, people are presented with a series of either/or options -- for Frodo it's claim the Ring or resist the Ring; for Sam it's be loyal or disloyal; for Aragorn it's follow the Paths of the Dead or not; for Eomer it's help Aragorn or hinder him, and on and on and on. And all of these choices are really the same choice -- choose between good or bad; to follow those who are doing Eru's work or to hinder them. And like I said above, even those who choose to hinder the Plan still end up helping it along -- Saruman bringing Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, Gollum betraying Frodo, etc.

That is why I say there is no free will in Middle-Earth. 'Free' in the sense that nobody is completely unfettered of the plan or design of Middle-Earth's creator. This is, I would add, an essentially Medieval view of the world -- no surprise givien the Professor's imaginative debt to that world. The absolute freedom of the individual to choose to become or to be or to act in whatever way or form as desired by the individual was unimaginable to the Medieval mind: it was much simpler than that -- do good/what God commands or don't. So the will is operative, but not within a very wide or "free" scope.

[mormegil]

Fordim I understand what you are saying but you make each choice seem so cut and dry. Sure Sam had the choice to be loyal or disloyal but it's a choice in varying degrees. The way you have stated it makes it seem that he's either 100% loyal or 100% disloyal. He possibly could have done more or even still he could have done less and still be considered loyal to Frodo. I think you've made each decision too black and white to be truly valid.