The Moriquendi

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Hullo, I'm new here and maybe I'm asking a stupid question but could anyone tell me what came of the 'Elves of the Darkness'? I can't remember ever finding out. did they stay on in Middle Earth when the other elven races went into the west? or were they all wiped out?
cheers.

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[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Moriquendi

Welcome! The Moriquendi were indeed those who remained in Middle Earth instead of going to the West. Of them came the people of Thingol in Doriath, the Green Elves of Ossiriand, and the Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Maglor68]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Moriquendi

This topic is definitely one of Tolkien's enduring mysteries. I would imagine that many of those who eventually came west but were not wiped out in the wars with Melkor and Sauron probably eventually passed over the sea. The implication seems to be that after the war of the ring all of the elves of Rivendale and Lorien went over the sea or dispersed to other elven kingdoms.

If any elves remained in Eriador in the fourth age, they were probably gathered together at the grey havens. Certainly some of Thranduil's folk remained in Mirkwood.

Personally, I like to thing somewhere, far in the eastern reaches of the world, there is still a small community of elves inhabiting the shores of Lake Cuivenen, patiently awaiting the day when Middle Earth would be made whole again.

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Thanks, for some reason I had it in my head that the Moriquendi were, well, if not evil, not very 'elvish'. I don't know where I got that from, lol. So they were allowed to return to the west in the end then? I suppose they were still wise but not as enlightened as those that saw the light (I think about this way too much!) so, does that make Legolas one of the Moriquendi?

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[Theodred21]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Moriquendi

In a way, it does, Oropher father of Thranduil, father of Legolas was one of the Sindar, meaning Legolas had more enlightening than some of the other Moriquendi, but he still was one of them!
But he still was allowed to go West though!

http://pub39.ezboard.com/brohan73264Rohan</a>!!!-- I do not eat melons, for mellon means friend, and I do not eat my friends! </p>

[Blokdog]

I don't really understand this. are sons of calaquendi, born in the hither lands, moriquendi? this seems a bit strange to me...

[Nerwen]

Probably not, as Tolkien mostly uses the term to refer to whole peoples– the Noldor are Calaquendi, the Sindar are Moriquendi, etc– with Thingol being an individual exception.

But that's beside the point in the case of Legolas. He's a Dark Elf, like his father and grandfather before him.

So... you're a bit of a
Necromancer, huh?

*shrugs* I suppose it's appropriate to this fandom...

[Anárion Cúthalion]

I had a question about Lake Cuivenen; were is it? I've read the Silmarillian, but I never could figure out were it is. Is it east of the Sea of Rhun?

As a side inquery, the Blue Wizards, what ever became of them? If they settled down and married, the Fourth Age would see a blossuming of the arts of magic.

A friend of mine was working on a story set in the Fourth Age, long after the reign of Elessar the Great (the only king who should be named Elessar). We had Elves still in Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell and the Grey Havens, along with Ithillian. Gunpowder is now no longer a secret known only to wizards, now Gondor and others have it, but in amounts that are low. Think the 1400's and 1500's in Europe, plate armor is still common and gunpowder is on the way in. His story also featured the return of Morgoth.

I ramble...................

[Nerwen]

Yes, you do.

You should have started a new thread for this, but anyway–

1. Cuiviénen no longer exists by the Third Age.

In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Cuiviénen there is no returning.

-The Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves".


2. What became of the Blue Wizards? Nobody knows... not even the author.

...and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.

–Unfinished Tales, "The Istari".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Anárion Cúthalion

I had a question about Lake Cuivenen; were is it? I've read the Silmarillian, but I never could figure out were it is. Is it east of the Sea of Rhun?

Cuivienen was north and further east of Rhun along the eastern slopes of the Orocarni Mountains.

Originally Posted by Anárion Cúthalion

His story also featured the return of Morgoth.

According to the apocryphal writings of Tolkien, Morgoth will not return until the very end of the world.

Originally Posted by Blokdog

I don't really understand this. are sons of calaquendi, born in the hither lands, moriquendi? this seems a bit strange to me...

According to the Silmarillion, all Elves who did not reach Aman were Moriquendi. If, however, a Noldor of Aman had children within Middle-earth, then the Calaquendi title was conferred upon them, or at least the powerful traits of these Elves were the same (like Celebrimbor, for instance). There's a handy Elvish family tree in the glossary of the Sil which breaks it down.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galenriel

Thanks, for some reason I had it in my head that the Moriquendi were, well, if not evil, not very 'elvish'. I don't know where I got that from, lol.

Here's a look at the term Moriquendi (and Sindarin Mornedhel, Moerbin) according to JRRT's Quendi And Eldar (from War of the Jewels). A long post, especially considering that I must follow with something from Of Dwarves and Men too, but we can see that it was Tolkien himself, who, at times seemed to associate Moriquendi with, well certain 'negative implications' let's say (at least from a certain internal perspective):

There also existed two old compounds containing *kwendī: *kala-kwendī and *mori-kwendī, the Light-folk and the Dark-folk. These terms appear to go back to the period before the Separation, or rather to the time of the debate among the Quendi concerning the invitation of the Valar. They were evidently made by the party favourable to Orome, and referred originally to those who desired the Light of Valinor (where the ambassadors of the Elves reported that there was no darkness), and those who did not wish for a place in which there was no night. But already before the final separation *mori-kwendī may have referred to the glooms and the clouds dimming the sun and the stars during the War of the Valar and Melkor, so that the term from the beginning had a tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.

The lineal descendants of these terms survived only in the languages of Aman. The Quenya forms were Kalaquendi and Moriquendi. The Kalaquendi in Quenya applied only to the Elves who actually lived or had lived in Aman; and the Moriquendi was applied to all others, whether they had come on the March or not. The latter were regarded as greatly inferior to the Kalaquendi, who had experienced the Light of Valinor, and had also acquired far greater knowledge and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar. (...)

In the period of Exile the Ñoldor modified their use of these terms, which was offensive to the Sindar. Kalaquendi went out of use, except in written Ñoldorin lore. Moriquendi was now applied to all other Elves, except the Ñoldor and Sindar, that is to Avari or to any kind of Elves that at the time of the coming of the Ñoldor had not long dwelt in Beleriand and were not subjects of Elwë. (...)

Moerbin as applied to them is usually translated 'Dark-elves', partly because Moriquendi in the Quenya of the Exiled Ñoldor usually referred to them. But that no special reference to Elves was intended by the Sindarin word is shown by the fact that Moerbin was at once applied to the new bands of Men (Easterlings) that appeared before the Battle of the Nirnaeth. If in Sindarin an Avar, as distinct from other kinds of Morben, was intended, he was called Mornedhel. (...)

The implication that as opposed to Celbin the Moerbin were allies of Morgoth, or at least of dubious loyalty, was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari. No Elf of any kind ever sided with Morgoth of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands: but this applied also to Celbin.

The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Ñoldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of Eöl.' JRRT Q&E

Sorry for the long edited quote, but it might take me longer to paraphrase it all correctly. There's also an interesting marginal note (same book as above, but with respect to the text Maeglin) which reads:

'(...) For Eol was said to be a 'Dark Elf', a term then applied to any Elves who had not been willing to leave Middle-earth -- and were then (before the history and geography had been organized) imagined as wandering about, and often ill-disposed toward the 'Light-Elves'.

'But it was also sometimes applied to Elves captured by Morgoth and enslaved and then released to do mischief among the Elves. I think this latter idea should be taken up. It would explain much of Eol and his smithcraft.'

JRRT Maeglin

Christopher Tolkien goes on to comment that: 'I do not think that 'Dark-elves' had ever been used in the sense referred to in this note, that of 'darkened Elves', Elves ensnared and corrupted by Morgoth.' In any case, Tolkien wrote a sketch of Eol's history wherein it was thought that he was captured and taken to Thangorodrim; but he thought better of it, being too repetitive of the history of Maeglin.

Anyway, there's a later account (later than Q&E) called Of Dwarves And Men which reads, at one point:

'It was therefore modeled on the classification by the Atani of the Elves: the High Elves (or Elves of Light) were the Noldor who returned in exile out of the Far West; the Middle Elves were the Sindar, who though near kin of the High Elves had remained in Middle-earth and never seen the light of Aman; and the Dark Elves were those who had never journeyed to the Western Shores and did not desire to see Aman. This was not the same as the classifications made by the Elves, which are not here concerned, except to note that 'Dark Elves' or 'Elves of Darkness' was used by them, but in no way implied any evil, or subordination to Morgoth; it referred only to ignorance of the 'light of Aman' and included the Sindar.' The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Christopher Tolkien does not note this as conflicting with statements made in Q&E, but he does point out (in note 62 to ODAM), with respect to Tolkien's further statement that it is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand, that back in Quendi And Eldar there is a reference to Avari who had crept in small and secret groups to Beleriand.

[Blokdog]

also, if you go to http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/maps.html you could have a look on cuivienen... and of course many other places!