Historical Value

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I was thinking about this when I was at work the other day. Let me start by explaining...
I work at a living history museum. My job is to tell people stories and historical facts about the buildings they are touring, and it just so happens to be field trip time. We are visited by many kids every day, but it was something a parent did that made me think...
I was telling a story about Henry Ford as people toured his birthplace. I told them about the living conditions of the time, and so on, and then a woman (one of the parents) says, "Someone REALLY lived here?" I said, "Yes". She said, "REALLY? Is he still living?" She seemed to disregaurd the fact that I was talking about Henry Ford, who founded the Ford Motor Company in 1903, AND that the museum is called Henry Ford Museum. How could she go there without knowing who he was?

OK, now to my point...
While re-reading The Lord of the Rings I really noticed this time how all of the characters are very well educated with their history and how they all know about their ancestors and the doings of the past. I though, "How wonderful would this be if people today still had such an appreciation for their history." I don't know what it's like where you live, but near me people are not very well educated (as a whole). I saw on the news that the local high schools tested at a 22% satisfactory reading rate! High school! These kids probably couldn't even tackle a book like The Lord of the Rings!!! I just find it sad that an alarming amount of people today are forgetting their history and losing the importance of it.

I was wondering what this is like around where you live and if you see the same thing.
Also, I was wondering what you think would happen if Frodo wasn't as well educated... let's say that he didn't know any Elvish, he didn't know that maps of Middle Earth and he didn't know the history of Middle Earth. I think that it could've damaged his mission.
Any opinions????

Sorry, this was a long one! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Tarthang]

Well, what can I say, but us Americans, are a bunch of lazy dumb asses. Our keep up with the Jonses economic culture, means that we have all the gizmo's and gadgets that make our life so comfortable, that as a whole we've become complacent and easily take things for granted. This parent helps prove this point by not even realizing, that our lifestyle and technology weren't alway's around, and therefore another way of living is inconceivable.

It would seem we have lost our sense of value in what helped make America the powerful nation it is today. Namely drive and ambition, especially in regard towards education. What need do I have learn anything, All i really need to know is how to operate my pc, log into and use the net, to find out anything I need to know.

So what woiuld happen if all our wonderfull technology were to fail overnight? I'd say within five years, most Americans would die from lack of knowledge to survive in a world without technology. All those third world countries with little or nothing, would quickly become first world nations.

As far as the characters in LOTR being educated. well only the main characters. If you recall, Merry or Pippin remark that they wished they'd paid more attention to the planning stages in Rivendell. So not all of the main characters were necessarily as well educated as it seems as implied. I imagine a lot of the characters history was preserved in the form as folktales which were to some greater degree for entertainment purposes than just educational, especially in the case of hobbits. Elves are immortal, so they have all the time in the world to learn their history, the same could be said of the dwarves. Aragorn, Boromir and Faramir, Eomer, Eowyn, Legolas and most of the others were of the nobility where an education was as much an asset as privilige, when compared to the common man. And JRRT provides very little contact with the common men of Middle Earth.

[Nufaciel]

Yeah, I know what you mean. As a whole, people tend to be so comfortable, the think they don't need to know anything. I've taken people down to Mexico and they are floored by the conditions there. My family that lives there lives within ten miles of the Texas border, and they have don't have running water, very few have electricity. In the village where my family lives only my aunt and my grandmother have phones. There is no indoor plumbing (nothing like using an outhouse). They only have to go to school up to grade 6, and their day in school is like 4 hours. Anyway, my point is we have it good, and people take this for granted. I for one try not to do this. I'm always studying something new.

Anyway, in Lord of the Rings, if you remember, the lady in the healing house (can't remember name offhand). She's supposed to be learned in her lore, but she has to be told what athelas is.

[littlemanpoet]

It comes down to what we value. The (Edwardian) hobbits of the Shire, reflecting a late 19th century sensibility, valued community, family, knowledge, oh, and food. We value the new rights (right of privacy, right to know, equality of opportunity)- and take for granted the old. These new rights point to what is most important to us. History is not among them because it serves no utilitarian purpose in terms of what we value. Mind you, I speak of us rich, fat, lazy and short-sighted Americans in general. I took a BA in History because I love it. It has done me next to nothing in terms of employment. Just as well. Tolkien could not have written a stupid American Frodo. Obviously. Now THAT might make an interesting fantasy story. I'll be it's beendone before.

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

littlemanpoet: a stupid American Frodo?!? Now that would have been funny!
Here (Canada) history is considered just as important as, say, math. We spend weeks - even months - in other subjects studying something history-related. I'm trying to write a history, and I never realised how hard it would be before. My history teacher (he is very cool) is obsessed with history. There are a few topics which, if you get him talking about them, you will not be able to stop him. I think history is very important - if we forget our own history, where we came from and what has happened before, then what will we have learned? - and it is currently one of my favourite subjects (tied with Drama. Normally I would say English, too, but the English class here... let's just say I wish some of you smart people went to my school). It is complex, varied, and vibrant.
If Frodo hadn't been as well educated as he was, the effect would have been disastrous. However, the lack of such an education did not seem to slow Pippin and Merry down too much. I think it was very important that Frodo knew a bit about the Elves, and could speak their language a little. His being an "Elf-friend" helped on their mission. The Gondorians and Rohirrim mentioned above might probably have been educated as a part of their noble lifestyle.
This is a very interesting thread. I think that hobbits probably used oral tradition more than anything, too...

[Laiedheliel]

Hmm, this is an interesting one. As a citizen (proud at times, not at others) of the U.S. of A. and still a student of the public schools, I can say a few things on this one:

1. Many of the kids in my grade are slackers, pure and simple. Already by eighth grade they are bored by school, and all they wish to do is return home to their phones, VCRs, TVs and PCs. When some of my friends, most of which take advanced classes right along side me, heard I was writing a book, they were shocked, as if it were obscene to be using one's god-given talent, or to put out an extra effort.

2. Many of the parents in my district (I do not speak for anyone in particular, and do not speak for anyone outside of my school district) are under-educated, fathers working and mothers playing the fifties housewife role. I know some of my friends' parents attended college, but a shocking amount did not and now work at labor-class jobs or not at all, and have little knowledge as to what their children are actually doing and being exposed to. This trait their children have inherited, and have not yet come to the dreadful realization that times have changed and that an education is an essential tool to unlocking one's future in this country.

3. As previously said, we in the U.S. take wayyy to many things for granted, not just education. Take 9-11 for example: We took for granted that we were safe, and all of our securieties (sp?) were shattered. We have so much in this country, but we do not share, and generally do not except that people in some other countries have very little. I have a Chinese (sp?) pen pal, and when I hear about the way she looks at her education, as a gift, I realize how naive my friends and I really are. It seems to me that the whole of Europe and Asia tend to take their education so much more seriously, and have retained a rememberance of what life is like without it, and without all of our modern-day convinences (sp?), or as some like to say, modern-day curses. (Though we here at the Downs depend on one of those 'modern-day curses' to have intellectual convos like this one...)

*Whistles at the novel she just wrote* Sorry guys, I have really strong feelings on this one, and if you have read this far I am taking a break to thank you for reading my three very lengthy reasons...

As far as the education in ME, the characters we saw in the LotR series were, at least this is my impression, unusal, with the exception of elves, in their high educations. Frodo knew much more than any of the Hobbits in Hobbiton, and Bilbo knew more that he. Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor, and he grew up in Elrond's house. Legolas was the Prince of Mirkwood, and immortal. Gimli was a really out there dwarf. Sam, Merry, and Pippin's education, though they may or may not have seemed formidable to others of their own kind, paled in comparison to the other characters in the book. I happen to agree with whomever said so above: that most of the history and lore passed down to the Hobbits and Dwarf were more for entertainment purposes, not for preparing for a greater scheme or future, and certainly not for a Fellowship to vanquish the Dark Lord.

*Stops her rambling to take a deep breath* Whew, I think this is the longest post I've written that hasn't been in an RPG. As I have said, I happen to have really strong views on the subject, even for a fourteen year old.

Anyone else?

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Laiedheliel ]

[Birdland]

I have to sadly agree with all of the statements posted above. Actually, coming to a board like this and hearing from so many younger people, who obviously DO have an interest in history, languages, and mythology has restored my faith somewhat in the this generation. (I hope you are not as rare a breed as you seem to be stating.)

I could go on and on with this topic, but the main theory I'd like to put forward is that the denizens of the Shire have always impressed me as being - well - rather "American" in their attitudes and interests. They are a comfortable, insulated, and well-off country, set in the middle of a dangerous and threatened world. They have little or no interest in the going-ons of anything outside of The Shire, and they have very little idea of their own history beyond the time that their ancestors arrived in Eriador, let alone other cultures. And even that has been reduced down to tracing family trees. They've even forgotten their own language! Bilbo and Frodo were definitely the exception, with their interest in history and other cultures around them.

Now Tolkien explains this away by stating that Hobbits were originally a rather primitive race of hunter-gatherers in their ancient past, and had no written records of their origins, beliefs, or history. This has always struck me as one of the few false notes to Tolkien's mythology. Even so-called primitive cultures always have a rich oral history, which is handed down through the generations.

Is it possible that; as the Halflings settled and prospered in their new home, and gave up their "wandering ways", that they rejected their own history, and let what knowledge they had of themselves "die out"?

Oh, one more point (in a totally different direction). Isn't it interesting that Sam, the lower-class son of working parents, had more of an interest in "education", then the upper class, well-established Tooks and Brandybucks? And it wasn't viewed as a way to ingratiate himself to his "betters" or raise himself up. It was a pure love of knowledge that he regarded as a precious gift, and his one source of pride.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Laiedheliel]

Birdland, I am truly sorry to answer what I have to, but the teenager of today are not the culture loving, knowledge hungering fiends you see before you. Morals that once existed to keep this breed from being so rare have fallen from their guilded pedastals (sp?) and have left those few desendants of the breed scraping the bottom of the barrel. I am glad I have aided in restoring your faith in the generation, but do not give up on us yet, we may surprise you. Do you think our children will grow up without this exposure and knowledge? Heh heh.

Sam, now that I have put some thought to it, is like what you said also, Birdland, but he seems to take it still at an entertainment value, and does not seem to have realized the real-life applications of the knowledge he has aquired; other than it being one of his sole sources of pride, the other being his garden...*Sigh* Reminds me of some, no most of my friends. As far as the oral passing down of history of Hobbits, I do not see it as an inconsistancy, just as a disapointment, my only with the series. I believe that with all of the creative genius in that man's head, JRRT should have come up with an better way of explaining that. But at the same time, if they had a history, would the Hobbits still be the light-hearted creatures of pleasure we all have come to love?

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Laiedheliel ]

[Bramblerose Gamgee-Took]

In Autralia, our history is important, but there isn't a lot to know, as Australia has only had white-settlers living in it for 200 hundred years. History is one of my favourite subjects in school, and I try to find out as much as I can. Sadly though, I am only a few who actually pay attention.
I think if Frodo didnt know as much as he did, he would have almost certainly blundered in destroying the ring.

[Kuruharan]

Ah-Ha! Another one of my hobby horses. However, I'll spare you my usual venomous rant about the ills of American public education. (I can hear you all sighing with relief). But there are a few things I'd like to point out.

Ignorance of the past is not just a modern "problem." This is a problem that has always been around since the dawn of recorded history. The vast majority of people in all cultures over time have always had a rather flimsy grasp of their past.

Why? Well, illiteracy was a big part of the problem. Only the wealthy and educated had the time, to say nothing of the money, to spend writing and studying their history. To the majority of people it had little practical function in their work. Not to discount the importance of oral history, which was indeed very important to most cultures throughout the world, but much of this oral history tends to fall under the category of myth rather than history. One of the pitfalls of studying history is that you are reading the records of the powerful, and therefore literate, classes. The true opinions and feelings of the vast majority of "common people" are utterly lost to us. With regards to Middle earth, this point was touched on by Tarthang, Nufaciel, Birdland and Laiedheliel.

This is one of the reasons why there is an ongoing movement to place history in the literary arts rather than the social sciences, but this is not the place to open that can o' worms.

Moving on to more modern times (i.e. when reading and writing became more universal) the same, "history is not relevant to my real life" attitude still abounded. People who had to work, hard, for their living did not have time to study their past in depth. Their knowledge of history was pretty much restricted to "popular history" or the way that society remembers the past, whether it is accurate or not. (Usually not.)

With all due respect to Edwardian England, I suspect that by far and away the largest segment of the population had no firmer grasp on history than, "We kicked France's butt at Waterloo! Go us!"

Hmmm, this has come off sounding like more of a defense of us lazy Americans than I had really intended. However, in all fairness I felt that it needed saying that this is not a problem that is exclusive to modern America, or for that matter modern times in general.

Something that I do very much fault modern America for is the fact that the vast majority of the population actually has the opportunity to really learn their history (something that is very rare I can assure you) but most of them do not.

Alas, I guess it's that factor of human stupidity. There have always been dumb people, there always will be. But as far as most people can see there is no reason to learn history. Unfortunately, those of us who do have knowledge of the past can clearly see the dangers.

"How in the world can studying how everybody in the past messed up help me?"
-Actual statement I overheard

Well, for starters "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." Except that one thing learned from the past is that humanity never learns from the past.

Another thing is something I have come to believe more firmly the more I learn, and that is, "The more things change the more things stay the same."

Those are two cliches I know, but there is a reason they became cliche. They are true. This is something that ought to fill all thinking people with dread because the one thing that HAS CHANGED is that humanity's toys have gotten more destructive.


Gee, this got rather depressing toward the end, didn't it? I'll have pity on those of you who slogged your way down through this post and stop here.

[Joy]

I'll tell you the truth, History was not one of my favs in school. But when I began to homeschool, my mom told me to look at history as Great Literature.

Now, my mom only has a high-school education, but she was a great teacher. She taught me the value of history and literature. She helped birth a love for writing in me.

I can not speak for all American's nor the public school system, as I went to a private school. But from what I have seen, America's students are lagging behind in the Math/Science and Social Sciences/Humanities. Some of the students that I met at my college, fresh out of high school, did not even know which countries were North and South of us.

Many of the students didn't know how to write a decent term paper in the standard MLA format - somehow that had slipped by the teachers.

During my 6 yrs at the college - I had a triple major - There was only 1 History major!

I do not completely blame the American students for the lack of knowledge in these fields. The teachers and the parents are partly at fault. If the parents don't encouraqe their children to read, the child is not going to progress to a higher level of learning, nor will have the desire to learn until it is too late.

Also, we need teachers in the school system that have a love for the subject that they are teaching. When a child see exhuberence in a teacher concerning a subjuct, this will make a child want to learn.

A personal story - I knew that for my major I was going to have to take a literature class. Don't get me wrong, I love reading, it was just that I didn't want someone to force me to read certain sections. I chose British Lit 1. We started with "The Last Surviors Speech" and "Beowulf." As we were reading these, my professor would read selections to us and she would even go as far as to act some scenes out. I was strange to see this 100lb lady pretending to weild a sword as she was reading. This class was the impetus for me reading the Old English classics and falling in love with them. Now I act exactly like this professor when reading [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Thingol]

People often find it easy to look down on the people/culture of today’s world while idealizing the past. The truth is Kuruharan is correct, the human race has really changed very little since the dawn of time. Very few people have ever been interested in studying history, even their own. Anyone who has actually studied history in any depth will realize that the past isn’t all that the romantics make it out to be. The great majority of people are, and have always been shallow, greedy, ignorant, and capricious. People don't learn, they never have, and they probably never will.

History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon.

Napoleon Bonaparte

[Birdland]

One of the pitfalls of studying history is that you are reading the records of the powerful, and therefore literate, classes. The true opinions and feelings of the vast majority of "common people" are utterly lost to us. - Kuruharan

Which is just another way of saying "History is written by the winners." Who were generally the people with the money, education, and power. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But don't be too hasty to dismiss the oral histories, Kuru, whether they were tales told 'round a fire, or bardic odes. It was the only resource for people who for most of the ages did not have to time to devote to "learning their letters".

"History became legend; legend became myth." is generally the case with oral history, but there is a kernel of truth to most of these legends, like the grain of sand in the middle of a pearl. One of the most interesting theories I heard about Arthurian legend was that Arthur was the cheiftain who brought the secret for processing and forging iron to the ancient Celts. Hence; The Sword in the Stone. (get it?) Scholars have pursued these grains of truth through the centuries, simply because they represent an aspect of history that was neglected by the "winners" who were writing the books.

As for Hobbit history, I can't think their "Wandering Years" were a very pleasant time. A small race in a world of doughty, prideful men would have had a rough way to go, to say the least. (Just look at what the Wild Men of Rohan were subjected too, before Theoden granted them protection.) Maybe the Hobbits, when they finally found a land to call their own, were inclined to put the past behind them.

But still, I can't help missing a suggestion that they remembered the outlaws, rebels, heroes, and lovers that fill the songs and tales of other cultures through the eons. They must have had them. I just wish Tolkien had had the time to "record" them.

[Laiedheliel]

Ha ha HA! Finally a stimulating topic that ties in with both ME and real life. Ah, me, I've died and gone to the Downs version of Heaven, even if some of the statements here are depressing.

I am forced to agree with those who posted above: Since the dawn of time man has failed to realized his greatest mistake-not learning from the mistakes he's already made. Time has gone on, civilization has evolved quite rapidly, and with all of the new discoveries and knowledge around him, he has not noticed his own halt in evolution. We do not grow because we do not learn. We choose today not to learn anything beyond daily nesseccities (sp?); and I am also forced to agree with Joy, we Americans have begun to lack not only in history but in virtually all acadimcic subjects. But you can always count on us, it seems, for a dirty joke.

Point being this time, folks, is that human nature is not inclined to look backwards, as is vividly shown by all that have come before us and even those around us, but forwards, and discriminately at that. We look forward to tomorrow, but not the day after, another mistake we should have learned from long ago. How many children do you know that care about what happens three weeks from now? Three months? Years? I didn't think so. But as in grammer, one must remember: there are always exceptions to the rule.

As to ignorance being a eternal problem, I have to say "no". To say "yes" to this statement, I would have to lay down some conditions. If ignorance were not brought upon oneself by choice, then I could say "yes", but we must learn from our mistakes above and be more specific. Being aware of our ignorance, even blissfully ignorant, is a modern problem. In the Dark Ages, or even during the Renisance (now I know I spelled that one wrong), we did not know we were ignorant. Kuruharan touched on this when he mentioned illiteracy before education was cheap and widely available (when I say cheap, I'm talking about in non-third world countries, with no disrespect intended). Just recently have we become aware of our ignorance, and frankly, from what I've seen, no one cares. Am I completely off the mark here? If someone cared, we would look to our history, we would learn the skills offered to us instead of turning away in favor of modern trinkets.

Obviously we here have realized this fault, and on a small personal scale we here have begun to fix our problem; but what can we do for the rest of the world? Tee hee, there are too many perpetually stupid people to try to light this fire in all of their minds. But that is not the question at hand. History is. It lives through us, no matter how resistant we are. And every interpretation is different, but all are equally important in their own unique ways: to teach us what to do and what not to, and to tell us what is real and what isn't.

*Reads her post and sighs, again.* O, dear, I've gone and written another book on the subject. Congrats to you if you manage to read and understand this, and thanks again for trying... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Tarthang]

Wow what a topic. Looks like pretty much everyone here echoed what I had said, only in more precise terms. Kuruharan definately spelled it out better than I did.

In response to Laiedheliel's forst post, 3rd point concerning the 9-11 event. I wasn't surprised, and felt we pretty much got what we deserved. Way back in Feb. of '91, I was in Frankfurt-Mainz airport, and couldn't help notice the armed gaurds running around with live ammo loaded in their guns (due to the terrorist activity in Europe throughout the '80's). we did't have stuff going on like that back in the States, and I quickly picked up on how complacent (and lax) we were in our security. I'm just surprised the 9-11 incident didn't happen any sooner.

[Daniel Telcontar]

The security in USA may be lax, but it is even more in Denmark then. Whenever we see a police car we think if somethink has happened, because we are not used to see them. Whenever you board a plane, the security check is quick.
The good thing is then that it means that we doesn't worry to much about crime since it is so unfamiliar.

[Kuruharan]

In the Dark Ages, or even during the Reniassance, we did not know we were ignorant.

I would say that in the context of this discussion ignorance is lack of knowledge of the lore, or whatever, that is available to the society in question. We probably still don't know that we are ignorant. We know more now than we did in the past (or at least we like to think we know more, it might not truly be the case) but there is so much more to know.

Which is just another way of saying "History is written by the winners." Who were generally the people with the money, education, and power.

Or the people who won the wars. First principles always apply.

But don't be too hasty to dismiss the oral histories, Kuru, whether they were tales told 'round a fire, or bardic odes. It was the only resource for people who for most of the ages did not have to time to devote to "learning their letters".

The problem with oral histories is that something like this would happen.

"Let me tell you a tale of the great deeds of my great-great grandfather. He was such a swell guy. All that slaying the dragon and saving the villagers stuff. By the way, since my great-(and I really mean great) grandfather was such a swell guy you should make me ruler of the village, or at least give me the cushy job of town bard so I can live in bliss and comfort for the rest of my life. You owe my great-great grandfather after all." Or something like that. The problem is that there are less means to check oral histories than there are for written. At least if they are written there is a better chance that somebody else wrote down the stories as well.

Unfortunately, those copies are usually the ones that get burned up when the Romans come barging into town and accidently set fire to your library.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Tigerlilly --

Bless you for putting this topic up on the boards. You have stumbled upon something for which I have very strong, personal feelings.

It's very strange, but when I read LotR back in the mid-sixties, one of the main things it did was to fuel a desire in me to learn more about the ancient and medieval past. I was in a factory neighborhood where no one even went to college, let alone graduate school. But I am also very stubborn and eventually managed to go on and earn a doctorate in medieval history. I even got to teach in college a few years. I loved it. The kids even liked me.

But we had to move to another town, and I had to start job huntng all over again. And things had definitely changed. It was impossible for me to find work in my chosen pofession. My husband and I both applied for jobs where there would be 300-500 applicants. Very crazy and impossible!

I eventually retrained and became a librarian. I did this because jobs existed in the field, but also because it was the one educational institution that didn't have such strict guidelines or preconceptions. If a child came in and wanted a book on mythology, no one tried to argue and say he shouldn't have it because it wasn't practical or wasn't directly related to career prepartion. I grew to love wowrking in libraries, and I'm not sad I switched.

But I am sad about what happened in colleges and universities in this country. In the 60s, students (including me!) had petititioned for the abolishng of all core courses. What this did was to cut out liberal arts and humanities courses from the curriculum, in whole or part, and history went right out the door with them. Gradually, college became more and more a place to prepare yourself solely for a "career". The idea of understanding your heritage or even learning to think was definitely secondary. The great god of practicality had reared his head and chased out so much good before him.

Today, I would argue, we still view college as primarily a place to prepare yourself to earn a lot of money in the workforce. Bilbo's ideal, and the ideal of the Elves, only hangs around on the fringes of academia. Yes, the Bilbos and Elves are still there, but it's often hard to get funding for the liberal arts except in a few choice (and often expensive!) institutions.

Even in the lower grades, history has largely been thrown out the door, replaced by a mishmash of general social studies. So , in a sense, we are getting what we deserve--students who have no sense even of their own country's heritage, let alone the general tenor and themes of western civilization or world history.

I have tried very hard to make sure my own children do not fall into this category of human beings totally ignorant of their historical and cultural heritage. And I have been so very pleasantly surprised to see many young people posting on this site who know so very much about history and literature (in my mind, these two go hand in hand). I am not naive enough to think you are in a "majority" at your schools, but the very fact you exist at all is little short of a miracle.

As far as history being focused on the great and powerful, that's what history textbooks teach---a long recitation of facts and dates that deal with the rich and powerful who are in control at the top. But this is only part of history. It is possible to go beyond this, and to find books that look at a much wider picture. I was a social historian, which means I studied classes and people who were definitely not in the top tier. My dissertation was on the gentry in te county of Essex, England in the later middle ages--human people who would have been similar in wealth and education to hobbits like Bilbo and Frodo in the shire. I had other friends who tried to dig up things about peasants (i.e. the Sam Gamgees of the world) from the manorial rolls. So it is possible to go beyond the people at the very top, but you have to look in unexpected places and be imaginative. It's not easy, but it is fun.

I think there are people out there who are still hungry for myth, legend, and history. The movie has helped some people rediscover that these things can have some value and meaning even in the 21st century. And I think Tolkien would still be proud that his books could open people up to many of the things he loved.

So I am very greatful to the role the movie has played, especially among middle school, high school, and college age people If only, there would also be change in our educational institutions. But I guess we can only say that, right now, change comes one person at a time.

As far as the hobbits go, I always thought it was part of Eru's plan that the hobbits would stay a very low key and unknown people until that moment when Gandalf would let Bilbo and Frodo know that they had been chosen to do something very important. And then they had the choice to say "yes" or "no". Well, they said yes, and we all knows where it went from there. If the hobbits had had a real "history", others might have been aware of that history,and those "others" then might have been keeping a closer eye on them. And that could have led to disastrous results.

It's interesting to me how "unknown" hobbits were to many of the other peoples of the third age--even Treebeard and some of the cultures of Men. They hadn't heard of them or thought they were the stuff of legend. And it's also ineresting that most of the Elve's songs were really historical in nature, and none of the hobbit songs were like that. In my mind, this ties into the whole theme of the hobbits needed to be a secret people, good at sneaking around quietly. In a sense, both Frodo and Bilbo were burglars, on a mission to do something very quietly--the opposite of what a typical hero would be or do. They both needed to sneak into someone else's house (Smaug, Sauron) and do somthing unexpected.

And Tigerlilly, you must work near Dearborn, Michigan. Don't you? My family home was three miles from the museum (if that's where you work). I grew up in Detroit, and went to Kalamazoo College. I love the Great Lakes!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Raefindel]

Tigerlily, I have myself been on tours where some ignoramus said something really stupid... often my mother-in-law. I was on a cave tour where someone asked"How much of the cave is underground?" and, surprisingly, the tourguide answered"I'll have to ask my suprevisor" I think some of these are people who just didn't think before they opened their mouths.

I know I'm not the most educated parent out there, but as a parent, I feel it is my duty to not only help my children earn their education, but more importantly, to spark their interest in the subjects they are learning. If they have a question I try not to give an "I don't know" answer (that my parents would have given.) If I don't know We'll find out... together. This has made it (I believe) much more interesting for my children to learn.

This is, I believe, the attitude Bilbo had in education Frodo (and Sam).The desire and interest in their world. The desire to learn about their world. It is what set him apart from the others in the Shire.

[Kuruharan]

history and literature (in my mind, these two go hand in hand)

But do not confuse the two. They are not the same thing. The objection that I have to history being viewed as literature is that you end up viewing the texts that we have as works of art rather than as records. Once that happens they become meaningless because you spend too much time analyzing the text itself rather than what they are trying to tell you about the events they are recording. Granted, we don't know that the texts are accurate, but if people are not willing to work with what we have then why even bother. These are (at least as far as a human can tell) records of real people and events. They are not works of art that you can view and then skew to suit personal paradigms, issues, or prejudices.

This is a trend that I have personally noticed in history education, and I don't care for it much.

As far as history being focused on the great and powerful, that's what history textbooks teach---a long recitation of facts and dates that deal with the rich and powerful who are in control at the top.

For my next un-PC statement, aside from the whole money/power/leisure matter, another reason why history focuses on the rich and powerful is that they are the ones who have made the greatest difference in history. (I'm not saying that this is right or the way it should be, but it is.) The rulers and the wealthy are the ones who traditionally have had the power to enact (or inflict) great changes on society, and this is still true today. True, there is more leeway for social rising in modern times (sort of) but the fact remains that if you can accomplish something revolutionary as a result of this action your status, wealth, and/or power tend to rise until you are part of the wealthy ruling group. (What we are doing now for instance. The makers of this revolutionary technology have generally done well for themselves. And most of them will probably be better known to history than they are to us.)

[ June 02, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[akhtene]

Many thanks and my great admiration to people who raised this really all-important problem. It was a shock (in the most positive meaning) to find that people still care for education. Being a school teacher I heard so many opinions that we (I mean teachers) want too much from poor students who really do their best but they can't... or needn't... or even mustn't 'overload' their heads. Much of that is said by parents, some is added by educational authorities. I'm not sure what the majority of young people think, as they don't find it appropriate to share with teachers but recently it's become quite fashionable 'not to care' for anything. Oh, of course they do care for many things which concern then at the moment. As for the future... Half of my 14-year-old students couldn't even say what they were going to do after leaving school. Well, most of them said - go to university, but to study what? No answer. There is such indifferece in everything I hear. School is looked upon as something obligatory and, as a result, really silly and boring. Perhaps what I'm going to say now is a cliche, but my classmates (and I'm working in the same school which I finished) were much more hard- working and interested.

And now here comes another topic raised here - the value of historical knowledge. I feel that my country has been stripped of its history, perhaps even not for the first time. If I haven't mentioned yet, I'm from Russia. I'm not going to argue now which way of development is better or what we have lost or gained 15 years ago. But it seems to me sometimes that I used to live in an absolutely differnt country. When I was young we were tought to be proud of our Motherland. There were heroes about whom we all read and whom we wanted to be like. Now all that is not forgotten, but most facts are interprited in so many different ways, that to my mind history has become even more the matter of ideology and belief than (they say ) it used to be. And I feel that kids aren't interested in history and aren't much inspired to be. Some don't even know who won the WWII, and what it was anyway. Oral history, you say... When in a bus two (or more) old people start moaning and one says that his whole life was ruined by communists, and another argues that that was the time when people could really live... I can't recollect all the "horrors' which (they insist) I must have suffered. Of course you may say that if there is a will you can always find the necessary information and the "grain of truth' in it. That is so, no doubt. I'm just afraid that our kids have such a mixture of ideas and values in their heads.Even in our 'ancient' history some discoveries have been voiced worth yellow press.
Why have I started to put it all here? I just hope that The Lord of the Rings (sorry, jsut hate using that abbreviation) will make, or has already made some of the young people to revise their values, to get new interests (among them interest to history and to pure reading) Whatever may be said about the film, I believe it has introduced many new people to the book and to the wonderful world of Middle Earth

(created at 3.15a.m. local time. Please excuse poor language and pessimistic mood) [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

Whoa. More people care about this topic than I ever would have expected.

On one of my History teacher's rants, an important point was brought to light: not only do human beings have a tendency to forget to look behind them and ahead of them, but we don't even look around us. We know so little about the past; and part of that can't be remedied, especially in cases of truth being distorted or only certain people recording events, and thus recording them from their own point of view (ie American vs. British or Canadian views on the War of 1812), but mostly from apathy or lack of interest. We cannot know the future, but at least we can look around us and see the present. As my teacher said, we don't even know who we are. We have forgotten our past; and without it, how can we have a future? It was sad to realize that some people don't even know important facts about their own country, their own culture or the people in it.

The education system has been a recipent of my exasperation ever since I was in it. History has been lumped together with Geography to form Social Studies, which I previously believed was an entirely different subject (the study of societies and cultures). But sometimes (and this is a rather painful truth) it is not the system that needs reform but the people in it.

How can we teach anyone anything if they won't listen? Ignorance can be credited to feelings such as apathy, stupidity, and (in my generation's case) the pressure from peers to appear cool: thus, not caring. What we need is someoen to show them that not only is it very cool to care, caring also defines our existence.

Whoa. Rather long rant, thanks for sitting here and listening to me babble.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Aosama, the Wandering Star ]

[Laiedheliel]

Not at all, Aosama, it warms my heart to hear another student that finds the educational system in such distaste. Do you live in the US?

akhtene, I desprately wish there were teachers like you at my school: maybe then I could talk to one of my teachers about something other than last night's homework without being sent back to my seat sulking from being yelled at or chastised. I am not in the majority of young people, but here is simply what I think: I know what I want, and where I want to go after school and what I am going to study. The school system where I live in America is sometimes so frustrating that I actually try to persuade my parents to move to another district. My parents have different and varied opinions on this same school system: for example, they think that I am overloaded with busy work (to which I am forced to agree), but it is not helping me learn anything new, or review anything to help me further my knowledge; instead it seems to be an excuse for my teacher to mark down another grade so she has enough points to work with at the end of the marking period. If it were homework helping me learn something new, or review something I had just learned, neither my parents or I would have a problem with it. I must say that school is looked upon as something obligatory, and that there are times that even I don't want to get out of bed in the morning, for I have a day full of the same material we covered yesterday to look forward to. No one works hard, no one appears to be interested, because, as you said, it is unfashionable. Most of the 'cool' people at my school have below a "B" average. Therefore, I am not the most popular person at my school and am left hungering for a compainion with some intelligence.

The only oral history I get around here is simply, "When I was twenty, we didn't have computers and it only cost 10 cents to go and see a reel at the movie theater." I don't exactly know how that is suppose to educate me, but I do learn one thing each time I hear it, and it is the same thing each time: The tendancy to forget history has been passed down through generations, and for a new generation to realize it's ignorant of past mistakes is almost seemingly against human nature. It tends to take something amazing to cause a person who was formally ignorant to look backwards: a love of fine literature, war, inspirational parents or teachers. Or, actual moral values, as akhtene said, that hold some weight in one's actions. Many of the ethics we have here in the States are taken for granted, like most other things, right alongside education. My values have been firmly reinforced by parents in love with literature and 'family quality time', and who are knowledgeable in many culture's histories. Without this, other children may grow up, as I said before, unknowingly ignorant; and left to fend off such 'fashionable' things as not caring and not looking more than two days into their futures. This particular revolution isn't an easy one to fight; and it must start with a personal choice by each and everyone of us.

Hurmph, I'm turning back to the educational system for a minute (*hears you all groan*). I feel I must disagree with Aosama on none but one point: the educational system needs major reform. The system needs to be based not only on what one needs to learn but what one wants to learn, and this in turn will drive students to be interested, to find amazing things out and work harder than they ever were driven to in the current system. Subjects should be spread out into different classes, and the quick learners should not be made to wait with the ones who are slower. Peer pressure is an undefeatable enemy, simply because it is human nature to care what others think. But, it seems, it is no longer in human nature to care about anything else, including the other people around us. We only care about their opinions.

I wonder, does anyone else have the same views? I am not going to sit here and say that I am remarkable in my own eyes; I am not. And I won't say that the others in my class are petty and silly, because on occasion I choose to join in on some of those petty doings and silly conversations. Again, human nature to desire companionship. Human nature is a fickle thing, and some have debated that it does not exist at all.

The point this third time (or is it fourth? O, I'm not going to count!) folks, is that do not simply blame our ignorance on the recorders of history, or the lore-masters who pass it along orally, but on human nature and unaware persons milling around on this Earth ignorant of their ignorance. We here on this topic, and some out of it who have not yet realized its existance, have only begun to realize the depth of our ignorance. The educators in my part of the system seem to be more ignorant than the rest of the world, because they believe that the current curriculum sends their students into the world prepared. I feel very poorly educated because there is so much history I do not know, and I feel especially pale next to all of you fair people. What I have is but a start to which I hope to add a great amount of knowledge.

*Again, sighs at the super freaking long post she wrote and looks at Aosama* Teehee, I babbled longer! *Addressing everyone* You guys can tell me to shut up anytime and I'll just go away...

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

But sometimes (and this is a rather painful truth) it is not the system that needs reform but the people in it.

I feel I must disagree with Aosama on none but one point: the educational system needs major reform.

Indubiably so. What I meant was that it is not always all the system's fault. Ever heard of the book "Don't Care High" by Gordon Korman? It is very funny, but mysteriously, each and every member of the school mentioned in the novel is filled with apathy and 'doesn't care'. It is shockingly reminiscent of some people in my own school.
No one wants to hear what the teacher has to say because he or she believes that he or she has heard it all before. Sometimes this is true (school is horribly repetitive, and sometimes I begin to suspect that somebody is doing it out of spite- then I give my head a shake, of course) but in all the instances in which I have experienced it, whether by sheer luck or something else, the teacher has explained it in a different way, or added something to my knowledge. I love my current History teacher (the one I mentioned ranting before) because he loves history and knows it, and once he cried out in despair in the middle of class due to the attitudes of most of the students. We need to hand on the history we have, but we need someone to do it. Our history teachers, proffessors, and librarians (akhtene, Child, for instance) are such people.
And as to your last question: No, I'm Canadian.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Aosama, the Wandering Star ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Wow, this is much more response than I ever expected. Everyone here has made very remarkable points on the topic. Thank you to everyone. I have really enjoyed reading each and every answer. I am glad to see that others have strong opinions on this topic as well.
I must admit that I didn't really care for history in high school (as some others have mentioned), but working at the museum I listed before and reading Lord of the Rings has really opened my eyes and made me want to learn more.
As for what was mentioned above about grades and homework. I was also bogged down with home work in high school. I also agree that it usually didn't teach you much. You learned the most from the people who were passionate about what they were teaching (who were usually the teachers that the "hip" crowd really hated). I find that same problem even here in college... My grades may not be a high as other peoples' are, but I feel that I pay attention more and learn more because I am forced to work harder (of course, I am studying acting which is a different cup of tea from academics because you are graded as compared to your fellow students - which is a downer sometimes because there are always "favorites"), but enough on that.

I also like the comments made about Lord of the Rings characters. I agree that not all of the characters were "well" educated, I was mainly referring to Frodo and his education. I did enjoy the points made about Sam's character, though.
Thank you all again!

PS - Susan, you are correct. I do live near Dearborn (for the summer, at least). I am glad you know of where I referring to.

[Laiedheliel]

Indubiably so. What I meant was that it is not always all the system's fault.

Very true. Here, the school's curriculum is set by a counsel made up of parents. If they were to leave behind the fad of not caring, we would have a better system and better attitudes within it.

Ever heard of the book "Don't Care High" by Gordon Korman? It is shockingly reminiscent of some people in my own school.

I hear ya, sister. No one, including most of the faculty and staff, cares about anything in my school. It depresses me everytime I see all of the people around me 'filled with apathy.' No, I have not heard of this book, but now I will have to pay yet another visit to the library and pick it up.

No one wants to hear what the teacher has to say because he or she believes that he or she has heard it all before.

Wow, the Canadian and American systems and students are quite alike. I have always watched this happen, and it paid off in fifth grade. My teacher would catch kids by asking questions you could only know the answer to if you had been paying close attention to him lecture as he spoke very fast. There was this one girl I really didn't like, and he did this to her multiple times...Ahh, he must have been one of my favorite teachers.

We need to hand on the history we have, but we need someone to do it. Our history teachers, proffessors, and librarians (akhtene, Child, for instance) are such people.

I agree, though sometimes it feels like so much history has been lost and is never again to be recovered, much like the Hobbits' lore from their wandering days. (You guys, this time I managed to tie in ME!) And thank you, akhtene and Child for passing on that history, and thanks to Aosama, for showing me I'm not the only high school-er turning 47 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] . Tee hee.

-but in all the instances in which I have experienced it, whether by sheer luck or something else, the teacher has explained it in a different way, or added something to my knowledge.

Lucky. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Most teachers here just repeat themselves indefinately.

[Kuruharan]

Human nature is a fickle thing, and some have debated that it does not exist at all.

Thank you, Karl Marx.

But sometimes (and this is a rather painful truth) it is not the system that needs reform but the people in it.

And that is the fundamental reason why I don't believe that any amount of reform is going to make the least bit of difference in this problem. Any time that you have human beings you are going to have all sorts of complex and unsolvable issues because that is just the way that humans are. I've read far to much to believe that there is no such thing as human nature. People have always been inclined to be ignorant, lazy, complacent, greedy, and usually uncaring about anything else as long as they are fat, dumb, and happy. You read history and you see the same things happening over and over and over again. The attempts in the 20th Century to create a new human through ideology were failures. Partially because the ones trying to effect this change were also human who were driven by their own greed for gain and self-aggrandizement.

Of course with science...well, why don't you read Brave New World to see what that would be like. But I'm not convinced that even biological tampering would really change human nature. I hope I don't have to find out.

[NyteSky]

I basically agree with Laiedheliel and Aosama. The school system definitely needs to be changed. Ideally they should get rid of grades. Ironically grades are what keep me from learning the most. We spend so much time worrying about those that there's no time to actually learn anything! Of course if they stopped grading most people would stop learning. As it is, I just hope random bits of information get stuck in my head as I fly through the material.
In my experience (I go to a private high school) most people don't care about learning. Most people don't even care about grades unless they get grounded for flunking. Almost no one actually reads the books we study in English. The funny thing is, most of them do fine on the tests anyhow. There are classes that I had this year where I learned nothing the entire time. Sorry, this has turned into a tirade against school.
The point is, the focus of school is no longer on learning. It's just something you have to get through to get to the interesting things. It's not just history, though I didn't even have a history class this year! I don't know if it's my generation, Americans, or human nature. It's a tragedy, whatever the reason.
On the other hand, in my class at least, there are quite a few who actually enjoy learning (I count myself among them) and do quite well. My closer friends read quite a bit and two of them in particular are history buffs.
I don't know where I'm going with this. Society in general would be better with a greater understanding of history, Frodo certainly needed it. Have you ever noticed how in almost every fantasy story there's one person who has tremendous knowledge? There's Gandalf in Lord of the Rings for example. Every quest seems to need at least one, a guide basically, who knows the history and customs and where to go and how to get there. Ok, this is too long already, sorry for my babbling.

[Birdland]

The truely sad thing about this spread of apathy towards history, and perhaps education in general, is that we are living in an age when so much information is available to us.

At it's best, 12 years of a formal education can only prepare you to "learn how to learn". Most schools can only cover so much material, and hopefully will encourage your interest enough that you will seek out further knowledge on your own.

At worst, certain "details" of history may be left out a child's education altogether. (An example of how the "winners" not only write the history, but will re-write it as well.) I remember the shock I experienced at age 19 when I saw a TV movie dealing with the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. during W.W. II. These events were never mentioned in all the years that I was in school, and I had to go to my parents and ask, "Did this really happen?"

Anyway, getting back to my original theme, we now have this amazing invention, The Internet, where any subject can be researched, analyzed, and discussed, right in your own home. I am still in awe of the fact that if I read of something in the paper, or see something on TV, I can sit down and get immediate information and answers to my questions. If I want to find a book on a subject, I can search bookstores and libraries all over the world. I can speak to people who may be experiencing these events first hand. I've waited for something like this most of my adult life.

And yet, in this age when we have such incredible innovations, (Hey, want history? We have an entire cable channel devoted to it.) I sit and read that people more and more seem to want to wallow in apathy and ignorance. How can this be?

[*Varda*]

wow, obviously a lot of people really care about this subject! I really enjoy History in school, saying that, i did have a really good History teacher who made it interesting and didn't mind being asked questions which were a bit off-topic. This really made me enjoy the subject so much more, and i'm thinking about taking it at uni in a couple of years.

Unfortunately I can't really say the same for many other people. My friends are also quite interested in the subject but it seems to end there. No one seems to care about their past and where they came from anymore. My mum told me about my heritage etc. from an early age and it made me appreciate it so much more.

As many people have said, the problem doesn't lie only in our generation. Some of the teachers in my school won't allow you to even ask a question! Some parents just don't seem to care about what their children are doing in school, and it all rubs off on the children. They don't realise it's good to know about your past, or to actually be interested in what you're learning. They consider it to be one of the most 'uncool' things you can do and think you're a freak or whatever. This means too many people can't be open and interested in learning.

So it's really refreshing to go to the Barrowdowns and actually find people who care about the same things you do, and you don't have to hide what you're interested in.

[littlemanpoet]

My main problem with American education is that we who have so much take it for granted and do so little good with it.

The "problem of American education" is complex. I got a history major and then went back for an education major and learned all the theories. I developed strong opinions about it all. I really think there is a difference between the basic philosophy of education in America as compared to (especially) continental Europe. European schools have evolved out of their historic medieval roots. I really don't know much about them except what I learned about German schools when I took that language in college, but they have two tracks; a student has to qualify for college-bound education, otherwise they will be "worker-bees". Reminds me of the recent shooting which goes to show that that system is imperfect, too. But I still think it's better than the system we have in America, which has been foisted on Americans by the John Dewey school of thought. Hence, American schools are modeled after factories. The whole idea is to put out a product called a student graduate who is a capable member of society. That member of society is educated in order to meet certain expectations, such as supporting the economy, the political system, the established way of things. It is not structured for the purpose of free thinking. I personally think that home-schooling is one of the best things to happen to American education in a long time, because home-schooled students are not subjected to this product oriented mentality, and they tend to excel. Granted, those who are homeschooled have parents who received a pretty decent education themselves. If I rant any further I'll be straying into socio-political commentary so I'll cut it short.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Littlemanpoet --

If you remember, Tolkien himself was homeschooled by his mother for a number of years. This is where he picked up his love of languages and of botany, to say nothing of his attachment to his Catholic faith.

In fact, if you stop and think about it, you'd have to say Sam Gamgee was homeschooled by Bilbo.

My closest friend in Houston is homeschooling her sons. Their family is Jewish and Hispanic, and they want to make sure to pass along both sides of their heritage. This summer the boys are in Peru with relatives and will be visiting the rain forest as an extension of their studies of biology.

I have thought seriously about this as an option, but have decided not to go that road, although I sometime wonder if I should. We have looked very, very hard to find the schools that are a right match for our two children, both of whom are very different.

Since both of them graduated from lower schools this year, they will be attending new schools next year, and I know we'll have to keep a close eye on things.

You know, there is another factor that bears on this. Even though the human lifespan has gotten longer, we have kept the "period of childhood" at the same length of time. In fact, if anything, we have shortened it. In many respects children are now considered to be adults by age 18. There is, overall, tremendous pressure on children to grow up very quickly.

We feed them a certain amount of facts and skills which we think they will need to be "productive citizens", and we push them on to the next step in the educational mill . They are discouraged from taking time to do very many "childlike" things which are generally defined to include any unorthodox use of their imaginations, role playing, etc. But the desire is still there. So commercial interests recognize that and often include watered down versions of such stuff in computer game, playstations, etc. which is, I guess, better than nothing.

The interesting thing is that in Middle-earth, childhood seems to have been longer, at least among the hobbits (age 33) and Elves (50).

I know you can have arguments about hobbit and Elf longevity, but the basic question is this. Do we push our children too far, too fast? Would we be better off to slow down a bit as Tolkien postulated in his world.

Have we so filled up children's schedules with basic facts and busy work and learning how to use our technology because we're afraid they won't be prepared for the future which is hurtling down the path at them at a very speedy rate? Would we have more time for history and imagination if we could somehow slow down the rate at which we push kids toward adulthood and independence?

I guess I'm asking if the hobbits had a better idea? And, by the way, calculating hobbit lifespan off the family trees apparently gives an average of about 93 years, which isn't so very far off from what we are inching up towards today. That means that more than one-third of hobbit life was spent as a child.......and look how many of them there were!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ June 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[GreatWarg]

You must think, if we're talking about history, let's go back into history. Someone brought up the Dark Ages and the Renaissance.

The Dark Ages had no period of knowledge of the past. They knew not much of their culture as it was before, and almost nothing about toher cultures. But during the Renaissance however, artisans became more interested in their history and arts from the Roman and Greeks. This seems to show that interest in history has truly helped bring on better times for them. In ancient China, one could trace his history and lineage all the way up the beginning point of the dynasties, as hobbits or Elves could do in Middle-earth. This shows that Tolkien was not only using several Christian ideas, but his own knowledge of our past.

The Renaissance mostly began in FLorence, Italy, where a great thirst for learning and art grew. Their studies of the Greeks and Romans at that time opened up a whoel new world of art, science, medicine, and other highly-developed ideas. These times inspired some of the greatest artisans and scientists, such as Galileo and Michelangelo.

Tolkien, however, used his knowledge of these events, and others of course, into creating one smooth masterpiece of words.

If, however, Frodo had no notion of Elves or other histories of Middle-earth, that may well prove disastrous. Pippin and Merry learned all they knew from Gandalf, Aragorn, Frodo, and Bilbo, but they did not head anything, so it would seem that they really didn't need to know these things.

However, hobbits, as someone said earlier, are perhaps more like us in some ways: taking their protection for granted, until Saruman took over the Shire. Before this, most hobbits had a knack for family history, but never really knew much about the world of Men or Elves, and have never been farther than Bree. And also keep in mind that when Frodo returned to the Shire, he wasn't a hero like Sam or Merry or Pippin because the hobbits didn't want to hear anything about the far and distant lands and realms of Elves, Dwarves, or Men. All they cared about was the land of the Shire, and anything that was near enough to home, so to speak.

[GreatWarg]

Child of the 7th Age, I very much agree with you. Hisorians are calculating that by the time 2010 rolls around, that the human race will be doubling their knoledge every 70 DAYS. That would put awfully lot of pressure on the younger generations to struggle to keep up with such leaps forward in technology and advancement. That would mean that schools would be more intesified to keep up with the studies, producing less free time for children. (Whoa, I'm talking like an adult here, and I'm only 15!)

My conclusion is: Hang on, you're going for a rough ride!

[GreatWarg]

As someone had mentioned, history is doomed to repeat itself. Hmmm... that would put up a most interesting field of speculation. So, are you saying we may as well fall back into the Dark Ages, where all knowledge of our past is lost??? But I may assure that some schools focus much on the Math/Science category. At our school, they have honours classes for the eager and the knowledged to keep them from falling behind to lower levels of study. Unfortunately, we do not have this for History.Quoting from a poet from the Renaissance times: "The love of history drives away the Dark, the interest in it brings back the light." This was, of course, reffering to the period of the Dark Age and the Black Death. However, afterwards, on a brighter note, periods of learning and advancement came along.

Unfortunately, as I think more of this topic, that if we are forgetting our own history, is it not then, that we are repeating history? Will we perhaps fall back into Dark Ages and weep and mourn for our loss? Then wait years, perhaps hundreds of years, before a wise man finds a picture of our history and works to bring it back? Will that happen to the human race?

(Sorry if I'm not quite so perky at the ending... whoa, I never thought I could think of history like this! And I'm quite young. Don't give up on us yet Birdland!)

[Birdland]

In many respects children are now considered to be adults by age 18. There is, overall, tremendous pressure on children to grow up very quickly.

Child, I have not been a mother, but understand all to well a mother's feeling that children "grow up to quickly". But there is an argument that today's children may be restrained by society into an extended artificial "childhood" as well, warehoused in schools, with no opportunity to contribute to society, or accept any type of responsibilities. Add to that the media-induced ideas of what being grown-up is (doing whatever you want), and a type of "hip" pseudo-sophistication and world-weariness.

Hobbits may have grown slowly, but I'm sure that all their children had what we would consider very grown-up responsibilites to shoulder. Sam was probably doing work with his father from the time he was old enough to handle a hoe.

I recently watched a program where modern families lived for 6 months in a working frontier settlement. Without the modern distractions of our culture, the older children seemed to develop a more "child-like" outlook on life, singing, playing games, exploring their environment. Yet at the same time they had to do the very real work of adults, haying, tending cows, chopping wood. If they did not shoulder these responsibilites, the very survival of the family would have been threatened.

And you know what? The kids themselves admitted to being happier, better people because of it. When these teens returned to modern society, they started to lapse into the sullen, discontented adolescents that seem to be all to common these days. But now they knew WHY they were discontented.

Another tangent that I could go off on is education and modern societies devaluation and belittling of what used to be known as the "skilled trades". I see too many of this generation indoctrinated into believing that the purpose of a "good education" is so that we can all go on to college and become financial analysts, CEOs, and other types of business gurus. The thought that you might work with your hands is a cause for shame, and I sign that you are, at best, an underachiever, and at worst, stupid.

I myself have worked in trade most of my life. The few times I have worked in a white collar environment, I found I was unhappy, and, quite frankly, inept. Unfortunately, with the destruction of trade unions, and the devaluation of these types of jobs, "working with your hands" is not an option for many these days. Not unless you want to starve.

Whoo, talk about your tangents! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ June 02, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Kuruharan]

(hopping up and down excitedly)

Ooo, Ooo, Ooo! Opportunity for me to go off on a really big tangent!

The Dark Ages had no period of knowledge of the past.

You have to be specific about where. In the Byzantine Empire the knowledge of the past was retained, and to a degree expanded. Only in Western Europe was there a great deal of cultural loss. But this loss was not total, monasteries kept much knowledge stored away through this period.

As a matter of fact, the Renaissance started as a result of cultural transferance from Byzantium to Florence. (It's a really interesting story too, but I'll spare you.)

So, are you saying we may as well fall back into the Dark Ages, where all knowledge of our past is lost???

Yes, that possiblity exists, at least to the degree that there may be another Dark Age. I doubt that all knowledge would be lost, as I said it was not before. However, there is a chance that a world wide Dark Age could occur.

But I still think it's better than the system we have in America, which has been foisted on Americans by the John Dewey school of thought. Hence, American schools are modeled after factories. The whole idea is to put out a product called a student graduate who is a capable member of society.

Or is it an attempt to give everyone an opportunity. Not that I am necessarily disagreeing with you, but the criticism would be that the European system is discriminatory. I don't think that any changes in that direction would float well in America.

There is, overall, tremendous pressure on children to grow up very quickly.

Spoken like a true parent.

Do we push our children too far, too fast? Would we be better off to slow down a bit as Tolkien postulated in his world.

But unfortunately we don't live in Tolkien's world. Or more specifically we don't have his economic system. This is an industrial society. The next generation has to be brought up quickly to fill their slot in society. By the time that the 33 year old children are just entering the working world their parents are going to be retiring out of it. That makes it difficult for an industrial society to have that large a group of individuals not working and a smaller group working, because the people not working still have to be supported by the people who are.

and look how many of them there were!

Exactly, all those non-producers that have to be fed and clothed.

But, on the other hand, we use more drugs to battle stress and depression than any other society. We have school shootings. We have rampent crime in the major cities. We have massive numbers of teens committing suicide. So we do have problems, or at least something is not working right.

Back to the acceleration of childhood, but that may be another reason why Tolkien did not like the modern world.

[piosenniel]

Even though the human lifespan has gotten longer, we have kept the "period of childhood" at the same length of time. In fact, if anything, we have shortened it. In many respects children are now considered to be adults by age 18. There is, overall, tremendous pressure on children to grow up very quickly.

I do agree with this statement - with respect to the study of history, I have always found it easier to understand, appreciate, and incorporate history into my world view as I have gotten older. With a stronger, longer development of my own understanding of how I fit into present history, it is easier to appreciate the vibrant importance what often appeared to me as so many dead facts. I have always thought the 30's should be the start of the real advance into adulthood.

Speaking purely from personal experience, I have to admit that my appreciation for the study of history in any form was nil during my younger yesrs. It was lists of facts and chronicles of wars and ruling powers, or so it appeared to me. I do recall one teacher in high school who rounded out American history with tales of small events and happenings taking place during the great march through the presidencies. She was able to personalize this facet of history in a way which made it much more accessible to my small experience of developing personal history.

[zifnab]

Very interesting thread indeed. In my experiences for school and learning. You get out what you put in. I wish I had put more in. Lets face it, that not everybody has the 'drive' to study and learn. To be more knowledgeable. Our history is different then Ea but it is similar too. Of course the beginning of Man is shady depending on what culture and/or relgion you are. The origin of Arda is simple, and well known to must. And inhabitants of Arda seem to be 'more easily to believe' in things, then we are. We challange every thought/belief/relgion/answer.

I never thought that too many Hobbits were well learned in ancient History. Bilbo(Frodo) and Farmer Maggot spring to mind. But the majority seemed content to their simple life. Is that wrong? Must we all thrive to learn? I don't know. Heck if their own family trees didn't confuse them, then maybe the Kings of Numenor wouldn't be that difficult. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Hobbits as rather "American" in their attitudes and interests. --- They have little or no interest in the going-ons of anything outside of The Shire, - Birdland

I thought that was a main reason why the 'States' are disliked. For sticking our nose in other people's business.

I always thought it was part of Eru's plan that the hobbits would stay a very low key and unknown people until that moment when Gandalf would let Bilbo and Frodo know that they had been chosen to do something very important. - Child of the 7th Age

Interesting Child, like Gandalf says, 'I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.'. But the ring also looks out for itself, it could have fallen off Bilbo's and Frodo's hand, become lost. The ring itseld can decide the actions and thoughts of its wearer. But it stayed with him, maybe for the reason it knew Frodo's destination. His master, or as you say maybe Eru had a part in that? Maybe because hobbits are made of tougher stuff?

Sorry, I know I have wondered off the path here.

[Nevtalathiel]

I thought that was a main reason why the 'States' are disliked. For sticking our nose in other people's business

I think the main reason America is disliked in this country (the UK), certainly among the teens, is that American culture seems to be trying to take over, and that in the past (tenuous histiry link) America has been seen to do what is best for her, not what is best for other countries, in international conflicts. I guess this could be seen as sticking her nose in, but I think it's more the fact that she stuck her nos ein for her own benefit, rather than to find the best solution to the problem.

Back to the main theme of this thread, I am fortunate enough to go to a private school, where all the pupils are capable and the teachers are enthusiastic about their subjects and know what they are talking about. The parents have worked very hard to send their kids to the school, and I know that they are trying to provide the best they can for their children, but there is still apathy and an unwillingness to learn. Strangely, the pupils who appreciate the school most are the ones whose parents cannot afford the fees and whose fees are paid by the government. They understand the gift they have been given and they work the hardest to get the best they can out of it.