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Old 11-23-2001, 08:38 AM   #1
svamp
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Pipe Glorfindel?

I'm probably way off here, or perhaps this is common knowledge but...

How common is the occurence of 2 elf-lords of equal name? I am sure Glorfindel of Elronds house in the LoTR books needs no further introduction (The Ford of Bruinen etc), but what of the other Glorfindel, of Gondolin who fell from a cliff in battle with a Balrog upon the fall of Gondolin?

The Silmarillion p 293:
Quote:
"Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place, and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
and also page 294:
Quote:
Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones beside the pass..."
 
Old 11-23-2001, 11:19 AM   #2
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They were both the same Glorfindel. When Elves die there their fear (spirits) go to the halls of Mandos in Valinor. There they stay until they can be re-housed in a new hroa (body) based on the fears' remembrance of it. If they were naughty little Elves while "housed" they may have to stay longer in Mandos. Some Elves, such as Feanor or Mriel (Finwes' first wife) never returned. Glorfindel was the only Elf allowed return to Middle-earth when he was re-housed (as far as I can remember). The rest had to stay in the West.
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Old 11-23-2001, 11:59 AM   #3
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Pipe

Not bad indeed, I should also like to get a second chance =)

Can you refer to a book/chapter where this is mentioned/explained?

/yours humble Svamp
 
Old 11-23-2001, 12:15 PM   #4
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From The Return of the Shadow HoME VI:
Quote:
Very notable is "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin". Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[The use of Glorfindel] in LotR is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silm, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings." He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.
That help? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

-rd
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Old 11-23-2001, 12:17 PM   #5
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Why thank you =) *bows*

/S
 
Old 11-26-2001, 10:07 AM   #6
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Not to be a pest, but Miriel eventually left Mandos, and it was Finw who was not permitted to leave because she left.
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Old 11-26-2001, 11:42 AM   #7
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Really? I didn't know that. where was that said? Was that because Finwe refused to leave Mandos while Feanor wasn't allowed, thus alowing Mriel to leave?
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Old 11-26-2001, 12:13 PM   #8
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Actually, Kin, I think it had more to do with an Elf not being allowed to have two wives. After Miriel refused to come back the first time, Finwe was allowed to marry again. He married Indis of the Vanyar. When Miriel finally came back, Finwe could not return because then he would have two wives!! Eek!

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Old 11-26-2001, 12:14 PM   #9
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Kin-Strife, check Morgoth's Ring about Finwe and Miriel.
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Old 11-26-2001, 12:30 PM   #10
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Ha! I beat the lawyer by one minute! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

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Old 12-07-2001, 03:05 PM   #11
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I just saw the reference to Miriel returning to Valinor but remaining apart from the other elves and due to her regret in choosing to 'die' as she did she began to write of her people's history. It was the first time I had seen this story. Michael Martinez referred to it in his latest offering of topics Middle earth on Suite 101.

As for Glorfindel. I do recall seeing the story of the explanation behind the two elves of that name. Another example of Tolkien struggling with the complexities that he created in writing such a monumental history over the course of a lifetime. I doubt even having access to storing ones ideas on computer would have saved him as a writer nowadays. I noted with interest that Glorfindel's fate was not specifically spelled out in any work. We assume that as a Noldor he left with Gildor and the other elves mentioned in the Grey Havens chapter at the end of TLotR's. But one would think that an elf of that importance would have been mentioned in those final pages. Did he stay? Did he see that perhaps the effects of Sauron were not yet fully done away with? I think so. Any story that is ventured set in the fourth age would find Glorfindel playing a key role with his living knowledge of Middle earth. He would be the eldest one around next to Cirdan. Was he born in Gondolin or in Valinor and arrive with the rest of the Noldor in the crossing?
 
Old 12-09-2001, 12:07 AM   #12
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When talking about elves and age tread lighly, because you never really know.

But unless it says that he does leave with Gildor or Elrond then I would think that he wouldn't leave. There are still many elves in ME at the biginning of the Fourth Age, maybe not as many as there used to be, but for Glorfindel to have companions enough. And Glorfindel is the only elf to have come back to ME after being dead. I mean you die in ME, finally rehoused and allowed to leave Mandos then you decide that it is just to great of a place not to go back. He truly loved Middle Earth and I guess that he would stay there for a long long time.
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Old 12-09-2001, 12:00 PM   #13
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Glorfindel must have returned before or with Celeborn - it was said that when Celeborn left, the last one with first-hand knowledge of the Elder Days was gone.
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Old 12-09-2001, 11:40 PM   #14
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Or on the last ship with Cirdan.
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Old 12-10-2001, 09:35 PM   #15
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That's odd, unless Celeborn left on the last ship, Cirdan would have been the last person to know of the elder days, since he lived them.
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Old 12-11-2001, 01:24 AM   #16
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True, and Cirdan was one of the firstborn, Celeborn was not, his father was Thingol's other brother.
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