Denethor's plunge

[Sauron the White]

First, I am sorry if I went to far in expressing my frustration at not being able to make my point.

Second, I was not expressing any hostility or anti-religious views - only attempting to show a comparison between the catch all the Catholic Church has to explain why they are right in matters of docctrine and why Tolkien purists are right. It is maddening at times.

Allow me to answer a specific point raised by Knight of Gondor. Sometimes I start typing a response when I should be rereading and soaking it up first. I guess the rule should be engage mind before fingers. I went back and read and reread your computations for running and times. Allow me to engage with you on that topic.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph.

15 mph equals a four minute mile. No highly trained athlete runs a four minute mile for anything beyond a mile. Winning marathon times (26+miles) are always at about 5 minutes per mile or 12 mph. That is a difference in your calculations reducing them by 25%.

But again, we are not talking about your "average normal human". Not by a long stretch. We are talking about a highly trained superior athlete who has just run the equal of the Olympic Marathon making them the best in the world.

You want to use your "average normal human" - they cannot run one mile in ten minutes without training.

Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

The world record for running 50 miles -just a bit more than the 45 miles per day we are using here - is four hours and 50 minutes. Please keep in mind two things when you think about that record. Running ultra marathons is a speciality, and extreme of an extreme that not even 1% of marathon runners attempt. Now we are taking the world record holder and we have the extreme of an extreme of an extreme. We are talking about the best long distance runner of all time. I will take a liberty here- and round that off to five hours. Even if a person were able to run that time for three straight days - the best distance runner in the history of the world would need 15 hours of time to run - not the 9 you calculate.

Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Many people here probably know tons more about the writings of JRRT than I could ever hope to do. I admit that. One thing I do know about is distance running. It is easier to run for a longer length of time in one sustained period than it is to run for a shorter distance - stop - rest- cool down - get up and run some more. The idea of running a long distance using this method is not really practical given the mechanics of muscles, how they work, how they cool down, and how fatigue begins to set in soon after. Your interval method is not the way long distances are run.

Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

The average person has difficulty running even an 8 minute pace. And that is giving them the benefit of the doubt that they could run a mile. An untrained person rarely can.

The Three Hunters did their ultra -marathon over a three day period in late February in a northern hemisphere climate. If you check sunrise and sunset tables you will find 12 hours of daylight available. Much is made in the books of travelling in daylight time. So they have 36 hours to run 145 miles or they must cover 4 miles every hours of every daylight hour available to them. They must cover 45 miles per day.

Running two-a-days is brutal and most runners reject it in favor of one longer run. Again, your interval method simply does not work for distance running. Nobody uses it. It contradicts basic anatomy and physiology.

The best you could hope to do would be two sessions of 22 miles each. Go and look up marathon times for the 26 mile race. When I used to run marathons my best time was 3:15 - thats a 7:30 mile for 26 straight miles. That put me in the top 15% of finishers out of nearly 4,000 trained runners. The average finishing time was over 9 minutes per mile. The Three Hunters were not trained marathon runners who could expect an average time of 9 minutes per mile. Even at that pace it would be only 5.5 miles covered in an hour. To get your 22 miles each of the Three Hunters would have to run for four straight hours. Then they could rest and have to do it all over again before the sunsets. Eight of the 12 hours available to them would be spent running at a 9 minute mile pace.

Here are some questions to consider about that run.

What is one their feet? The records and runners we are talking about are wearing highly developed running shoes of very light but durable material designed for one thing - running. The book describes two of our Three as wearing a type of heavy boot. Go and get a construction type workboot and try running in it for even a half mile. Again, this is not a matter of wil power, or motivation or desire. Its basic mechanics.

What is the terrain they are covering? Runners we are talking about run on solid and flat ground without holes or rocks or streams or anything that impedes their progress. Even through a winding city course, they run on a course that has been selected as runner friendly. Is that the terrain the Three Hunters were covering over their three days. I think not. It was much tougher in all respects. Whhat do you think that would do to both their times and increasing the wear and tear on their bodies?


There is not the space here - nor would anyone care to read it - if I attempted to explain the biomechanics of muscles and how they store and process glycogen to power them. It takes the average person nearly six months of training to properly prepare their muscles to store and use enough glycogen to run one race of 26 miles. And then most people can barely lift their feet the remainder of the day. Runners then take off several days or even weeks to recover. You cannot run a marathon a day - let alone over 1.6 marathons a day for three straight days.

To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.

As you can see the remainder of your calculations are way off. You do not have 60 hours but only 36 hours of daylight.... and perhaps a few hours of daylight on the morning of the fourth day. Maybe 40 hours. Your time available has been reduced by a full one-third. Your 15 minute interval period does not work. Your average speed given is wildly impractical. And you make no consideration at all for terrain and footwear. And as to the subject of muscles and glycogen, you did not even attempt to address that.

On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance

How much time would that take away from you remaing four hours per day?

Funny thing is when I first read LOTR in 1971, I had never run long distances and the whole Three Hunters thing went by without a question from me. It worked and made sense. I started running in 1976 and marathons a year later. When I reread LOTR that chapter stood out like a sore thumb and it now borders on absurdity.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

It's the 'marathon' model that's leading you astray. Running 26+ miles in three hours or so is indeed a killing endeavor (athough triathletes seem to have energy left over).

But this is not what the Three Hunters did. They travelled from dawn to dusk (actually before dawn the first day). At the end of February in a northern latitude that would mean 9-10 hours/day of travel time. This means an average speed of 3.5-3.9 mph: that's a walking pace.

Perspective: most experienced backpackers will do 3.5 mi/hr in mountains, and 4 on the flat. Why on earth is it 'impossible' for the 3H to have done this over the rolling plains of Rohan? As to 'untrained": Aragorn is supposedly the greatest traveller in the world, and is moreover of the Line of Elendil. Legolas is an Elf, not given to human weariness, and (we are told) capable of sleeping on the move. This isn't exactly a human physiology! And Dwarves, within Middle-earth, are legendary for being stone-hard and enduring.

And you claim that these 3 explicitly superhuman individuals couldn't do what Stonewall Jackson's 'foot cavalry' did many times?

[Sauron the White]

wch - Tolkien describes them as running. They did not walk. JRRT also used the term "striding" which I take to mean a type of race walking where you are power walking at a pace much faster than a walk pace. They mixed is some race-walking with the running, but he mainly describes running.

I said in the beginning that I condede Legolas being able to perform this feat given that Elves are so very different and there is written evidence of that.

And for purposes of civility allow me to say that given the description of Aragorn, I could stretch myself to allow the possibility that he could possible do it IF there was far more walking involved than running.... and IF the terrain was almost completely flat without obstruction ..... and IF he had proper footwear to allow him to rack up those miles without long periods of recuperation .... and IF he was not tracking and looking for signs along the way. But okay, for purposes of debate, lets say Aragorn, being really special and unique could do it also.

Now we come to the most problematic of the bunch. Gimli. How tall is Gimli? My guess would be about 4 feet, maybe 4 feet 2 inches. Is that right or wrong? And he is a dwarf with a massive chest and very strong upper body and shorter, stunted legs. He weighed in the area of 200 pounds give or take and I would guess that most of his bulk and power was abovethe hips an his legs were the weakest part of his body. That type of body is the direct opposite of what body type is conducive to running or even power walking. If I am wrong, please scour the list of marathon finishers and name the one person with that type of body who ran a marathon recently.

And what was Gimli wearing on his feet? And what was he dressed in? And what weapons did he carry? Do you think for a minute that any of this was conducive to a long distance ultra- marathon of three days while they stopped and tracked repeatedly along the way? And all this on top of the fact that Gimli was untrained in such an undertaking?

But to believe JRRT, it was simple will power and desire that allowed him to overcome all of these practical, physical and scientific realities. Okay, thats called willing suspension of disbelief. You believe because you want to believe. You believe because you really like the story and the characters and want to go with it and not be a pain in the butt.

Fine. We all do it. Thats the way lots of books and films work.

But William, my point from the very start was a simple one. Many people here on this site love the books and will give them the largest dose of willing suspension of disbelief possible. We can accept that fact that an untrained dwarf can run 145 miles in three days over varied terrain while a modern marathon runner could not do it. Fine. But when it comes to the movies, watch out brother because the charts and graphs and maps and logic and reason and deduction and common sense all comes out in massive quantities to prove that Peter Jackson is either
a- a jerk
b- a moron
c- a heretic
d- a bad filmmaker
e- all of the above

What made me post about this was the excellent use of film stills on page one of this thread by Knight of Gondor. Using the exact stills from the film, he shows that the distance between where Denethor catches fire to the distance where he plunges to the ground was impossible to cover by a man engulfed in flames. I congratulate him on his effort. It is honest, straight forward and can be checked and rechecked for accuracy.

And then poster after poster piles on pretty much taking the position that Peter Jackson is indeed either a,b,c,d, or e from my above list. And what does this do? It reinforces preconveived beliefs that
a- the book is something on the level of Holy Writ and should never be altered, changed or deviated from, and
b- those LOTR movies sure did suck and lets laugh at them some more.

There is one other problem with this thread as I see it. I have just viewed the Denethor plunge scene on my DVD player. It is the same one as seen by the hundreds of millions of people who paid over a billion dollars to see it in the theaters. From the time Denethor starts his flaming run to the time he flies off the end of the rampway, exactly ten seconds of film time elapses. Ten seconds. What everyone in the theater saw was a man on fire for ten seconds. How many films over the years have given us a man on fire for far more of a length of time than that?

Theviewers of the film DID NOT SEE the series of stills that Knight of Gondor put up on the first page here with a description of the length of each area and an estimate of the time it would take to travel each. If we had seen Denethor completely run that entire length in flames and it take two to three minutes the result would have been absurd.

But that is not what was in the film and that was not what the viewers saw and that was not what was in the mind of those viewers. For them, it worked just like the rest of the film did.

Willing suspension of disbelief. That is at the heart of this. I use it when I read the books and I use it again when I view the films. I love both and cherish both.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I acknowledge your point about Gimli- although it is I suppose possible to imagine that mountain-bred, broad-chested Dwarves, like Sherpas and some Andean peoples, have much greater lung capacity and blood volume relative to body size than we do. I suppose when I read the books I envisioned the 'running' as being akin to the long-distance run/walk lope which Creeks and other Indians could maintain for hours and leagues, not the edge-of-endurance effort we see in competitive races.

And, again, I've done 20- 25 miles/day repeatedly in mountains with a sixty-pound pack and heavy boots. If one's objective is to keep moving for 10 or 12 hours, one sets one's pace to that level, not to 26-miles-as-fast-as-possible.

In any event, the Great Chase was *supposed* to be astonishing- wasn't Eomer duly amazed? "Wingfoot I name you." (It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

Another 'goof' of Tolkien's of the same sort is his reliance on Army manuals to get marching distances right..but forgetting that Hobbits of course have a stride only about half that of fullsize humans. Frodo, Sam and Gollum must have been fair truckin' over parts of their journey!

On the 'hypocrisy' issue- I've never been very exercised over the likelihood of Plunging Steward, except for humor (and we all joke about the books, too). I just dislike the fact that Jackson eschewed the psychologically dramatic scene Tolkien wrote for another 'hey lookit me!' sfx shot.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

So if you then believe this, stop calling us all "hypocrites" for defending the books over the movies. Middle earth is not Jackson's world. He did a great job adapting it from book to screen, no doubt. Yet he did not adhere to some of the most pivotal details concerning characters and events. Therefore, no matter what you say- we will always talk and complain about the wrongly portrayed characters/events/etc. in Jackson's films.

And please stop comparing my faith with the books/JRRT. Thanks.

[Quempel]

I think this is where the problem lies for me. It’s not the plunge of Denethor that is so ridiculous to believe, it’s the fact that Jackson felt changing it from the book is what is unbelievable (to me). Yes I can suspend my disbelief with the plunge, what I have a hard time with is believing Peter Jackson thought his version of Denethors death was better than Tolkiens. It’s not the actual scene that is so hard to believe, it’s that Jackson actually thought he could do it better.

The bottom line is one can take Jackson’s billion dollar Oscar winning movie out of Tolkien’s world, and Tolkien’s world remains. However, one can not take Tolkien’s world out of Jackson’s work. If Tolkien had not written LoTR exactly what would have made Jackson his billions and won the awards, that’s right nothing. This is this and that is that.

Jackson interpreted Tolkiens work, and some of us backwards Appalachian inter-bread doofs actually think that Tolkien did a better job on the story. Call us backwater inbreeds dumb but we actually think the person who invented Middle Earth probably did a pretty good job with it. Some of us are not saying that Jackson did a bad job, but some of his changes were unbelievable, not because of the scene itself, but because the book simply did it better. Case in point Denethor’s death. It has absolutely nothing, nada, zilch to do with him running three miles on fire, it has to do with the fact that Jackson changed the scene completely, that is what is so unbelievable. The scene in the book was great, why change it. The change is what is unbelievable, not the actual scene. It has nothing to do with suspending our disbelief in fantasy, it has to do with our suspending our disbelief into thinking that Jackson actually interpreted the scene from the book they way he did.

To me at points in the movies and with some of the character changes Jackson did, I often wonder what book he read. I like the movies just fine, and it matters not to me how much money or awards they made and recieved, they are good movies. But they are Jackson interperation and some of his interpertations leave me wondering what I watched and why it was so far from the book when it didn't need to be.

[Sauron the White]

William ... thank you for the acknowledgement. Its appreciated. When you mention lung capacity that is one of those things that non-runners think is important because it is one of the first problems non runners encounter - being "out of breath". Funny thing is your lungs are probably the easiest physcial part of training since you are constantly taking in fresh air while you exercise unlike glycogen or muscle capacity which gives you the real trouble. I have heard many runners say their lungs could go for hundreds of miles , its the legs that kill them.

You trekking through the mountains is inspiring. I have a deathly fear of heights - or more accurately - falling from heights and can only admire mountains from the ground level.

Matthew - I acknowledge that Jackson did not invent Middle-earth. I give JRRT all respect and praise for that accomplishment. But in point of fact, legally, it did become Jacksons world to do as he pleased with it when New Line acquired the film rights and hired him to make the films. He did not build the house but he bought it and had the right to do what he wanted with it. So more semantics come into play.

I am not intending to compare anyones faith with the books. My point - and I am sorry if this was not made clear by me - was that after all these exchanges of points of view, debate, discussion and even argument, in the end it comes down to "if Tolkien wrote it and created it then its right in his world". Its an argument like having four aces up your sleeve in a poker game. Sure you can sit and play your hand against that person but in the end they will play the aces and you can never win. I thought of the same approach in discussions during my Catholic School education where the priests and nuns would willingly engage you in deep intellectual exchanges about all things but in the end the same aces up the sleeve were played. "It's this way because the Pope says it is and the Pope is picked by God and can do no wrong." Pretty much ends any discusssion right there as those aces come into play.

That has nothing to do with yours, mine or anyones religions beliefs. The comparison is only made because of the commonality of the unlevel power of it.

Quempel... you say

This is this and that is that.

I agree with you 100%. But I take it further. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER ....... "this is this.... this isn't something else.... this is this".

A book is a book and a film is a film. A book is not a film and a film is not a book. Each has its own properties, its own integrity and its own dynamics. Comparing them is like comparing apples to cinder blocks. In the end the experts astound no one by declaring that after exhaustive study apples do indeed taste better than cinder blocks ..... but cinder blocks make for better building material.

[Quempel]

For the record I like The Deer Hunter just fine.

And I will leave it at that since I do not agree that since Newline owns the rights to the story it makes it their story. I really don't want to argue sematics this day.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sauron- the lung cap is to me less significant than the 125% of 'normal' blood volume, which implies accelerated liver function and faster glycogen transfer to the muscles; it might also be the case that lembas is some sort of ultra-carb supplement as well. There may be faster filtering of lactic acid buildup as well.

In any event, the Hunters aren't moving at a marathon pace; that's objective given the time and distance, and no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.

[Sauron the White]

William ... not so sure about that. Please go to my post a few ago detailing the error in the numbers provided by Knight of Gondor. I ran some figures of my own and my best estimate was that they had to run 8 out of the 12 hours available to them during daylight each of the three days. Thats a measured pace of about 5.5 miles per hour or about a 10+ mile. That is probably too fast for the idea that they were both running and walking. But for purposes of discussion, lets go with that. For men of that size, carrying weapons and full clothing, wearing boots, and moving over various terrain, I would say they are burning calories at a pretty good rate.

Of course this line of thought can work against you and you probably see that coming. If we concede more walking to lower the heartrate and save on limited glycogen, then we increase the time necessary to complete the 145 miles. There will be a point where the could be walking at a moderate pace but would not have the time necessary to complete the task. But again, JRRT refers to both walking and striding - which is not walking at a moderate pace.

However, I concede I am NOT any kind of professional physiologist so I am going at this from somebody with 30+ years of running over 60,000 miles plus studying the subject as a hobby.

Again, I concede Legolas right from the start. And under the right conditions - which I am not sure were present - Aragorn being the tracker of his time - may have been able to rack up those kind of miles... but I am less sure of that. One day - okay. But I would hate to be his legs on day two and three. Gimli is a no brainer. No how - no way.

I am no expert on Tolkien despite multiple readings of the books over 30 years. Could you please tell me the properties of lembas as they are identified in the books? I have always thought of it as some sort of food alternative for short periods of time which gave a feeling of fullness and provided nutrition. I know of nothing which would indicate that it has any magical properties beyond that.

From the chapter Farewell to Lorien ............one of the elves who gives the lembas to Gimli
"One will keep a traveller on his feet for a day of long labour, ...."

Dwarves were used to hard manual labor. Their upper body muscles were well developed for various mining tasks and construction. But that is not running. Plenty of modern factory workers can work a ten hours shift at hard labor in a factory but could not run a half mile.

If Gimli had not trained in long distance running - or even a type of ME race-walking - his muscles would not have been able to absorb and utilize extra nutrition consumed on the road regardless. That would take months for his muscles to adapt to that exercise need. I remember them being in Lothlorien for a nice lengthy stay but recall nothing about an exercise program to acclimate them to running long distances.

Of course, some other poster already has the possibility covered when they claimed that just because the book does not say it did not happen could mean that it did. Again, the four aces up the sleeve - just a different sleeve.

Here is one thing I agree with on completely.

no reason to think that they'd be burning calories at such a rate as to hit the energy wall at 20 miles.

Exactly. A trained runner only hits that wall because of months of training. With an untrained, unprepared person of Gimli' size and build, the wall would hit him like the proverbial ton of bricks long before he ever hit double digit miles on the first day.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

(It however bugs me that whatever Aragorn & Co did, the Orcs went farther faster, but nobody remarks on it).

But they ate only the best manflesh, which was fortified with time-released glycogen, amino acids and vitamins that could keep an orc on its feet running all day. It also contained a mild hallucinogen that made one think that a Balrog was in pursuit.

[Knight of Gondor]

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Daniel Boone, the pioneer/frontiersman, was kidnapped by the Shawnee Indians, and he lived among them for a few months. When he heard they were going to attack the fort, he escaped and traveled 160 miles in four days to get back to warn the people of Boonesborough. Hmm...

But he wasn't a Dwarf, but a big man; yes a big man. Actual height/stride not necessarily known.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor... as cute as the Daniel Boone story is, it could be true as follows. 40 miles per day for 4 days equals 160 miles. 4 miles WALKED for ten hours equals 40 miles per day. So it could be done. At least on paper in theory.

Of course, that has not a darn thing to do with Gimli doing 140 miles in 3 days.

The bigger problem here is that JRRTolkien himself described the activity of Gimli and company as both running and striding. Both activities burn almost three times the energy and gylcogen of normal walking making it impossible to sustain beyond two to three hours for the untrained runner.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Knight of Gondor... as cute as the Daniel Boone story is, it could be true as follows. 40 miles per day for 4 days equals 160 miles. 4 miles WALKED for ten hours equals 40 miles per day. So it could be done. At least on paper in theory.

Of course, that has not a darn thing to do with Gimli doing 140 miles in 3 days.

The bigger problem here is that JRRTolkien himself described the activity of Gimli and company as both running and striding. Both activities burn almost three times the energy and gylcogen of normal walking making it impossible to sustain beyond two to three hours for the untrained runner.

You assume Gimli is untrained.

[Sauron the White]

I assume this because JRRT presented no evidence that he was a trained runner and had been in training for the several months preceding that feat. If there is ample evidence of his long distance in LOTR, please present it so I can be corrected. If not, my assumption is right and proper.

[Quempel]

There is no proof he did not train either, so I guess my assumption is right and proper.

You seem to be stuck on this whole Gimli being able to run issue. I have to wonder why, projecting emotions of some sort maybe?

Most here have said they can suspend disbelief on both the books and movies and it's not the disbelief of the movies itself but the fact that PJ added parts of the movie that were really not better than what Tolkien wrote.

As it were, it probably doesn't matter, as this arguement is getting rather old.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I assume this because JRRT presented no evidence that he was a trained runner and had been in training for the several months preceding that feat. If there is ample evidence of his long distance in LOTR, please present it so I can be corrected. If not, my assumption is right and proper.

Now I've not been able to dig up any true Dwarves from which to gather real hard evidence, but I have looked around and so am able to speculate:

• How far can an untrained person walk? Assuming Gimli and the other two were healthy and had done some walking beforehand (i.e. from wherever to Rivendell, from Rivendell to Lorien), the linked article puts that number at 30 miles per 8 hour day.

• Assuming 3 days, that's 90 miles

• Yes, I know that this is walking and the Three Hunters were striding and running, but they also were stopping and sliding (down hillsides) and dodging tree branches and hopping logs amongst other verbs.

• So for me, if a normal average healthy human could walk 30 miles in 8 hours, having done some walking previously, and seemingly could do this every day for three days, for exceptional persons the remaining 45 miles doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

[Sauron the White]

Alatar - the problem with your statement here

So for me, if a normal average healthy human could walk 30 miles in 8 hours, having done some walking previously, and seemingly could do this every day for three days, for exceptional persons the remaining 45 miles doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

is that you are taking the idea of a very vigorous walk which by itself would be taxing, and adding to that more than a half marathon each day. Again, for the untrained runner, just the half marathon alone - 15 miles - would be something that they could not run. The idea that an untrained person could do both is beyond reason.

But keep on trying.

Again, if JRRT had stated that the three had walked ten hours each day, then it could be withing the realm of possibility. Even then, I cannot speak with confidence about the ability of the untrained person to walk 45 miles each day for three straight days. But it is more believable than the running and striding descriptions in LOTR.

But I am convinced that the good Professor knew next to nothing about long distance running and the toll it takes on the body. In his defense, the long distance running book that came complete with mass market books, magazines and research did not come until after his death and the LOTR had been out for some time. People in the 40's might have well believed that willpower and resolve were more important in long distance running than anything else. I imagine all the medical documentation about glycogen and muscle absorption rates and rates of burning it as fuel were not available to the Professor in the decade of the 40's. So its not his fault.

The first time I had read LOTR - in 1971 or 72 - I had not yet begun the hobby of running and that chapter went right by me without so much as a raised eyebrow. It was only later, after immersing myself into long distance running and the literature that I read that chapter again and it just stood out like a sore thumb.

from Quempel

There is no proof he did not train either, so I guess my assumption is right and proper.

You seem to be stuck on this whole Gimli being able to run issue. I have to wonder why, projecting emotions of some sort maybe?

Are you really saying that you cannot prove something that is a positive but I am in error because I cannot prove a negative? That defies all the normal rules of debate and logic.

If any author, JRRT included, introduces something that is far beyond the normal, it is his obligation to support it with some foundation to make it believable. That did not happen with this issue.

Again, the whole point of the Gimli running issue is to show that JRRT had some holes and errors in his tale and many here have no trouble rationalizing or accepting it. But heaven help the movies if they do the same.

As for projection of my own emotional issues.... I am clueless about what you may mean about that.

[Folwren]

You know, you've just about beaten this topic of Gimli being unable to run that far to death. You could try finding another hole of Tolkien's to bring up.

For instance, Frodo and Sam surviving the erruption of Mount Doom after the ring was destroyed...

-- Folwren

P.S. We book purists will never agree with you, you know.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Folwren

You know, you've just about beaten this topic of Gimli being unable to run that far to death.

P.S. We book purists will never agree with you, you know.

Seriously. Give it up.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

is that you are taking the idea of a very vigorous walk which by itself would be taxing, and adding to that more than a half marathon each day. Again, for the untrained runner, just the half marathon alone - 15 miles - would be something that they could not run. The idea that an untrained person could do both is beyond reason.

But keep on trying.

So the article that I sited is wrong? What distance would you consider reasonable for a normal average human (after consulting their physician) to be able to travel in a day, and be able to get up and do the same thing the next day as well? Consider that the person has provisions (water and Snickers bars at the least), has adequate footwear - no new Nikes - and has walked everywhere his/her entire life, and so 6-10 miles is not an extreme distance for this person, as it may be for some of us today.

So far I've come up short, but I'm still searching for articles describing the average distance more primitive persons walk each day to get water, to gather food, etc. My guess is that these persons would be more apt to consider a lengthy journey than would be myself.

[Sauron the White]

Folwren and Matthew ... I was happy to give up on this a while ago... I thought we were through with it. But others keep posting their positions on it and I merely reply. Am I at fault for that?

We will agree to disagree then.

I wrote that on the 18th in the theread on Split Personality in the exact same discussion. It was my conclusion that everything that could be said already had been said. But then others keep posting their positions to me and I give them the courtesy of a reply.

I would very much like to move on to other things as long as others are willing to do the same. I will give Alatar the courtesy of an answer then hopefully, we can go on to new things like wings on balrogs.

Alatar -- your latest question

What distance would you consider reasonable for a normal average human (after consulting their physician) to be able to travel in a day, and be able to get up and do the same thing the next day as well?

What I know about is long distance running. I can talk about that with some level of confidence. I cannot discuss walking - sorry. But that is fine because WALKING is not what JRRT describes either in his tale so it is a point that does not have to be discussed. Again, walking at a normal pace DOES NOT prepare a person, or their muscles, for running or even striding. My best guess would be for the average person without training, the best they could travel in a single day would be perhaps 20 miles if they mixed running , striding and walking. After that, their glycogen and muscles would be depleted. If the dogs of hell were on their tail, perhaps they could do it again the next day. And if bones were strapped to their backs to entice the dogs, perhaps they could do it a third day.

Perhaps. That is my best guesstimate.

but this is from Answers.com in their article on GLYCOGEN

A well-nourished person will have enough glycogen in their muscle to enable them to exercise for 1-2 hours at approximately two-thirds of their maximum capacity for aerobic exercise.

Maybe I am being too generous in my estimate if this is near correct.

[Quempel]

And once again you assume that Gimli falls under the same standards as modern humans. One he was not human. Two he is not a modern human. Three your standards are real world standards and LoTR is a fantasy.


As for Frodo and Sam in the bowels of a volcano...neither Tolkien, Jackson nor Lucas got it right. Frodo and Sam would have suffocated from the fumes, ash and heat long before they could do what they needed to do. Firefighters die of carbon monoxide poisoning more often than burns.

[Sauron the White]

this has been discussed at great length in two threads - Denethors Plunge and Split Personality. Rather than rehash points which have already been answered, I simply refer you read those threads.

[Mister Underhill]

All this research into real-world capacities is a total red herring, IMO. If you start applying real world science to Middle-earth, you'll very soon find little you can believe in. I don't know why Gimli's run is the thing that trips you up, StW. I guess everyone has their own areas of expertise and pet hobby horses.

To me it seems that the real question here is internal consistency. Is Gimli's run believably consistent with what we know of Dwarves in Middle-earth? That's easy. Yes.

If anything, Gimli's run is far less believable in PJ's films because they're stuck with an actor who is obviously laboring under sixty or eighty pounds of costume and makeup, plus PJ uses the opportunity for comic relief -- having Gimli wheezing, always way behind the others, and making jokes about Dwarves being sprinters and the like.

In general, PJ's films are less internally consistent than Tolkien's books, and that's where a lot of book fans trip up.

[Sauron the White]

Now I have read the ultimate Purist rationalization for the books while at the same time putting down the films.

Gimli running 140 miles in three days in the books is fine. Of course and slap me silly for even thinking it is not. But Gimli running in the films - the hated Peter Jackson films - is far less believable.

There should be a prize for this type of thing.

[Sauron the White]

Mister Underhill ... I owe you more than that flip comment.

Where else in LOTR does it indicate that Dwarves have some extra-ordinary ability to run the equal of 1.6 marathons a day for three days in a row? You want to discuss internal consistency? That meets it head on.

If anything, the run is far more believable in the films. First, you are not looking at an actor laboring under make-up and costuming. You are looking at the dwarf that Tolkien described in the books. The physical depiction of was rather accurate. Second, in the books you have the very real problem of the miles or leagues being racked up each day in print. The entire distance is obvious and right in your face. No such thing in the film. Based on what you seen in the film - and only what you saw in the film - just how far did they run? You could never tell. You just knew that they ran a long way.

In fact I have just rewatched the portion of TTT - The Riders of Rohan. Very cleverly, PJ removes any mention of the distance covered and the entire conversations stays away from the topic. Instead they talk about trying to find Merry and Pippin. Eomer never has to utter his lines about their great feat being sung in halls.

Its far more believable in the film.

[Knight of Gondor]

I wonder...does anyone remember the march of Dain II Ironfoot to aid Thorin in the would-be siege of Erebor? As I recall, each dwarf bore a pack as heavy as himself, if not heavier. Has anyone gauged the required distance, given the heavy packs?

Again, no one is saying this is feasible in the "real world", I'm just bringing a similar journey of heavy-laden dwarves into the mix.

[Mister Underhill]

In Middle-earth, Dwarves are consistently portrayed as being a particularly hardy race, capable of unusual feats of endurance. Most of those references have already been cited. Dwarves do not equal real world humans. Nor do Elves. Nor do the descendants of Númenorean kings. It's not an error. In Middle-earth, it's just the way it is.

I appreciate that you posted a second time in a more reasonable tone. I have to tell you, though, that you'd be more convincing if you didn't seem to have the same knee-jerk loyalty to the movies as you sometimes claim others have for the books. I don't know why you take it so personally. If someone has a different opinion about the movies than you do, so what? You don't have to "convert" them to your way of thinking any more than you have to be converted to theirs. I haven't seen too many of these straw man Purists (with a capital P!) you've constructed around anyway.

I don't hate PJ or his movies. You can check my track record. I was really rooting for the movies to be great, while expecting and approving that there would be significant changes from the book. Does that make me a Purist? No, I guess what does is that the movies turned out to be, for me, enjoyable in many ways, but not great.

Denethor's plunge is a prime example -- it's not internally consistent for him to be able to run, engulfed in flame, the distance established in the movie.

Somewhere around here -- there seem to be about three different threads currently engaged in determining the running capacity of a partially-laden Dwarf -- I think it was littlemanpoet who said something to the effect that if he hadn't read the books, he wouldn't have had problems with the movies. That's not my experience. For me, the parts that are most frustrating are where the movies -- as movies, on their own terms -- fail logically or in terms of internal consistency.

[Sauron the White]

Since we are discussing those hardy Dwarves - a site called der-hobbitfilm.de has the following report up today

9/26/2007
Yesterday I got an interesting email, I'll just publish it here uncommented:
I have a friend who lives in New Zealand near Lake Te Anau and he said that a few people from New Line came to inspect the area and asked to go on their land. My friend asked why and they said they want to see if it would be a good place for the Lonely Mountain. They seemed really pleased with the location.

The site has been reporting - somewhat sparingly - on developments for a HOBBIT movie. This is their latest news.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I will give Alatar the courtesy of an answer then hopefully, we can go on to new things like wings on balrogs.

Thanks for playing along as I try to make my point (yes, I have one).

What I know about is long distance running. I can talk about that with some level of confidence. I cannot discuss walking - sorry. But that is fine because WALKING is not what JRRT describes either in his tale so it is a point that does not have to be discussed. Again, walking at a normal pace DOES NOT prepare a person, or their muscles, for running or even striding. My best guess would be for the average person without training, the best they could travel in a single day would be perhaps 20 miles if they mixed running , striding and walking. After that, their glycogen and muscles would be depleted. If the dogs of hell were on their tail, perhaps they could do it again the next day. And if bones were strapped to their backs to entice the dogs, perhaps they could do it a third day.

You are a long distance runner. I'd guess that the percentage LotR Movie viewers/Book readers that are long distance runners is small (for USA yr 2006, I estimate significantly less than 7.9% of all persons). Most/some people, like me, have a cursory experience with running, especially long distances. Tolkien and PJ subconsciously or consciously know this. So if you, who I assume would provide a low estimate for the number of miles a person could travel in a part of a day, can get us to 60-70 miles (for three or three+ days), then it's not hard to see how others, with less experience, can (wrongfully; yes, I know) let slide the event that three heroes could travel twice that distance. As you yourself have stated, when you first read the running scene before you became more knowledgeable about foot travel, you skipped right by it. But now...

And I know that we're both riding this horse into the ground for other reasons. You want more honest criticism of the Books, and others want (and enjoy) to continue to criticize PJ's efforts. The points made are that Tolkien is superior, at least in the medium that he uses, in providing a more internally consistent 'secondary world,' whereas PJ does not as well in doing the same.

Maybe it would be helpful (and keep me from the ever-looming boredom) for you to note other examples of where Tolkien fails in creating a SW for you in the Books section of the forum. Start a thread there and I'll happily post.

Guess we could also start yet another PJ inconsistency thread, but my SbS posts cover much of that ground, and so maybe someone else would want to get that horse out of the stable.

[Sauron the White]

alatar... I wonder if it is not the nature of the beast that those who tend to really know the ins and outs of something are the least satisfied when someone outside of that area attempts to utilize it in a book or film?

Some of the people who know the books the best find the most fault with the film.
My experience with running and the whole Gimli thing. Perhaps this is normal and to be expected to a degree.

Before I retired after 33 years of teaching, I was seriously into local union politics. We went on strike a couple of times and there were two newspapers in town - one pro union and the other anti-union. It did not matter that we were feeding both papers most of their information because almost always the stories they ran were either a) filled with errors of fact, b) stories which completely missed the serious points, or c) made up of half-truths and partial errors. And this was from writers and a paper I respected and looked to as my normal daily news source. It taught me a lesson about such things.

Probably if you asked a professional football player about football movies they would have a laundry list of complaints. I imagine lawyers could talk your ear off about errors made everyday on shows like Law & Order and courtroom dramas. I rarely saw a movie about education get the life of a teacher right. Even in the ones that were critically praised.

So maybe this should running debate just die from exhaustion and glycogen depletion of its own.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

alatar... I wonder if it is not the nature of the beast that those who tend to really know the ins and outs of something are the least satisfied when someone outside of that area attempts to utilize it in a book or film?

And maybe that's why some of those here, when you say that the 'Purists' here at the Downs cannot believe Tolkien ever made an error, find some of your posts 'peevish,' if I use that word correctly.

Anyway, while reading HoME last night (again) I saw that in one of the original versions of RotK, Denethor was to survive the Battle of the Pellenor.

Was Denethor so crazed that he was absolutely sure that his last leap would destroy him utterly, as why else immolate himself if not to avoid capture and humiliation for himself and his subsequent corpse? What if he'd been caught by a Nazgul and dunked in the Anduin, then to be brought before the Eye in Barad Dur, even if semi-charred? Quite a risk.

And another thought: In many, if not all space movies, there's always sound in space, which is physically impossible due to lack of a medium in which the sound can carry. Some persons note this (usually science nuts with little else to do), and yet is has become pretty much part of the 'language' of space movies. To have no sound when something explodes may leave the audience dumbfounded.

Like dancing around in lava fields in movies, many people just accept this physical unreality as it makes sense to us ground/earth-dwelling persons that live in air. Like in the Star Wars movies. Yet, with the exception of a few science nuts, you won't hear much about this in the reviews of these movies (which have no associated canon - at least the first flick didn't). Still, people find flaws within the movies due to the inconsistencies presented by George Lucas.

And if he can get it wrong (internally inconsistent), so can PJ. It's not the sounds in space, it's Jar-Jar Binks.

[Nazgûl-king]

I am kinda currious how he got that far that fast, but it is a pretty cool looking scene.

[Diane C]

I know I'm raking up an old thread here, but this particular scene has always bothered me. In fact the whole funeral pyre thing was just too clumsy & ill conceived in my eyes, right the from the moment Gandalf enters on Shadowfax.

He rides up and manages to knock Denathor flying off his pyre, but then rather than worrying about Faramir, who is also on the bonfire and unconscious Gandalf continues to faff about with Denathor, leaving it to Merry do somehow jump on the stack and push Faramir's dead weight from the burning pile. And then Shadowfax rears up and knocks Denathor back onto the fire, who then legs it all the way down the Silent Street and off!

I just found the entire scene contrived and not at all believable, sorry

[Blokdog]

I think we should just look at an ordinary armour: first, a shirt is worn. above this, a vest, and only then comes the mail. over that the robe and other things... so, if the flames from the pyre burned his robe, It may have taken at least a few minutes to heaten the inside of the armour, although the question what exactly burned after the robe was consumed remains. as you see, with tea it's the same: if the steel is hot, you take it using some other material.

[thewichtking]

Originally Posted by Celegost

He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire

what the............?

HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA !HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

then another 1/4 of a mile to the end of the thing to jump off. good point.

[narfforc]

Poor old Denethor, he's just found out that he is in a film called The Return of the King. With this Stranger of the North on the throne, there's no need for a Steward, so the film script calls for him to be fired.

[MaultheStoor]

I personally think he was wearing asbestos underwear and had began to grow wonky in the head from mesothelioma (but that's just me).