Ring driven or Meat Driven? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 08-31-2005, 01:25 PM

There are all these big time characters that go changed in the films, for better or worse is your own opinion, like Faramir, Aragorn (atleast in the MoS's beheading), Denethor, Gimli...etc But one that doesn't often get talked about, and one I think worth mentioning is Grishnakh.

Now in the books, Grishnakh is driven to Merry and Pippin thinking they have the Ring. He is an intellegent orc and he's after the two hobbits thinking they have the ring.

The movie I think lessens his intellegence and makes him more meat-driven towards Merry and Pippin. No mention of him thinking he had they had the ring, he was simply after them to eat them. Whether this is good or bad yet, I don't know. There's pro's and con's to both sides.

One, I miss a lot of Grishnakh's lines and slick sayings. As well as the trick that Pippin gets Grishnakh to fall into. He plays along with it, knowing Grishnakh thinksh he has the ring, and he gets him to untie them. So, I think we miss sides from both characters, the intellegent Grishnakh, and the clever Pippin.

Then on the movie point, there's really no reason to make Grishnakh driven by the ring. We know that Pippin doesn't have the Ring, so any hope of building up suspense for the audience isn't going to work. That's all I can think of for the movies, but perhaps there's more.

So, which do you prefer, Ring-driven book Grishnakh, or meat-driven movie Grishnakh?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-31-2005, 01:35 PM

Yes, he was a pretty sneaky and clever chap. Movie-Orcs were less interesting. I also would have preferred the Tower of Cirith Ungol to be more subtle as regards the Orcs' dialogue, but it's a minor quibble.

Kitanna · 08-31-2005, 01:45 PM

I just finished re-reading that chapter in TTT and I was thinking the same thing. I thought Grishnak was a clever Orc and he wasn't really given the credit in the movie. That whole part in the books shows that not all Orcs are stupid, but how smart Merry and Pippin are. I suppose it would be one of those "important, but not so important we need to include it" scenes. Oh well, it would have been nice to have at least one Orc that wasn't completely mindless.

Beanamir of Gondor · 08-31-2005, 03:41 PM

I'm not sure which one was better. With the stupid Grishnakh you got the stupid Merry and Pippin, who sort of float along with whatever happens, and are mainly the comic relief during the moments when Gimli fails. But, then, with the smart Grishnakh, you get to see Pippin saying "gollum, gollum", and actually being useful instead of just another curly mullet with a cute accent beneath. All in all, though the Grishnakh-getting-squashed-by-Treebeard was pretty cool, I would have to go with the Ring-driven Grishnakh. Then he's evil all around--evil to the hobbits because he wants the Ring, and evil to the other orcs because he's betraying them to get it for his own glory.

Glirdan · 08-31-2005, 04:09 PM

I would really have like to see the clever book Grishnahk because it also portrays Pippin not being so mindless and I really would have liked to see that part. Mind you, in the movie, the made up for that by making him make Treebeard take them to Isengard. Brilliant in my opinion. Anyway, getting off topic. I would really have perfered to have the clever Grishnahk in the movie instead of the usual brain dead orc.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-01-2005, 11:43 AM

I can't accept that Glirdan. They may have 'made up' for that by having Pippin outsmart Treebeard, but doesn't that beg an equally poignant question? Being, why was Treebeard so wishy-washy?

Well, that's three characters I'm moaning about now. Sorry!

Kitanna · 09-01-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I can't accept that Glirdan. They may have 'made up' for that by having Pippin outsmart Treebeard, but doesn't that beg an equally poignant question? Being, why was Treebeard so wishy-washy?

Well, that's three characters I'm moaning about now. Sorry!

I agree. I would rather have had Treebeard as he was in the book then having Pippin smart. The Ents shouldn't have been so hesitate when it came to going to war in the movie.

Glirdan · 09-01-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I can't accept that Glirdan. They may have 'made up' for that by having Pippin outsmart Treebeard, but doesn't that beg an equally poignant question? Being, why was Treebeard so wishy-washy?

Well, that's three characters I'm moaning about now. Sorry!

It's quite alright. We're all entitled to our own opinions. Yet now I would have to agree with you Eomer and Kitanna. I would have rathered the Ents as they were in the book over Pippin outsmating one of the oldest beings of all of Middle Earth. It would have been better if they just went by how Grishnahk and Pippin acted in the books.

CaptainofDespair · 09-01-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

It's quite alright. We're all entitled to our own opinions. Yet now I would have to agree with you Eomer and Kitanna. I would have rathered the Ents as they were in the book over Pippin outsmating one of the oldest beings of all of Middle Earth. It would have been better if they just went by how Grishnahk and Pippin acted in the books.

In that case, they should have just made the movies exactly like the books.

I'd prefer Clever Grish, but I can see why a Hungry Grish would be better for a mass-audience movie. I'd also prefer Book Treebeard over Movie, but again...it's for that accursed audience.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 09-02-2005, 12:37 PM

I agree, CoD, that movie-Grishnákh was suited to the movie-audience. However, I can't see how movie-Treebeard was more suited. But that's a whole new topic (of which I lay claim to

).

The popcorn-munchers enjoy their hungry bloodthirsty monsters. That's why they made Grishnákh into a slobbering beast, rather than a tricksy fiend. That and time constraints. They were probably able to chop off a couple of minutes by doing this. But then, the extended edition...

Lily Bombadil · 09-03-2005, 07:17 PM

Boromir88, but if we've read the books, we knew Pippin didn't have the Ring. If they'd put Grishnak's Ring-driven-ness in the movie, it still would've built up the suspense of wondering what would happen to Merry and Pippin. I personally would like to have seen Grishnak portrayed by the book. It definitely would've been nice to see more Tolkien and more cleverness in the movie. But then I guess PJ's chased-through-the-woods thing would've been out? I can't really say. Sometimes the things PJ does, brilliant though he is, end in utter stupidity and disaster... Gotta love PJ...

Bergil · 11-12-2005, 05:43 PM

The actor who played Grishnakh would, I think, have done the ring-driven version of the scese well (in fact, I hear that version done by the movie actors when I read that scene in the book)
And, the book-version requires that Eomer use his un-stupid strategy, rather then rushing in blindly.

but when you watch the film, the film version is entertaining.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-14-2005, 07:03 AM

Also, the Uruks would have been very aware of the Rohirrim well before they were attacked by them.

It's a bit like the scene where we first see the Riders seconds after 'Gorn, Legolas and Gimli hide from them. Really, they're about four yards away from you: could you not see them?

Goldberry101 · 05-03-2006, 05:48 PM

I think that having the Ring-driven Grish would have added a lot to the story in that you wouldn't see Orcs as just being these mindless, slobbering idiots that the movie portraies them as. I can see though, how having him meat driven would help for those who have not read the books, it's less information to try to take in at once...I know I saw the movies before I read the books and I wouldn't have understood it at all. It does, however make Treebeard look stupid and makes Pippin look as if he can't think well in a tight spot.

Tuor of Gondolin · 05-04-2006, 07:26 AM

Actually, I think movie Grisnakh was done very well
as a character and it would have been easy for
PJ and friends to write in Grisnakh more like the
book and Pippin doing his "Gollum" bit. I would
think movie viewers would have understood the
Ring connection, and desire for it, driving the orcs,
like it does all others.

I'm ambivalent on the movie Rohirrim charge. It
does work well (and necessarily briefly) in the
movie, but logically it makes no sense that orcs (who
know the Three Walkers are following them) can't detect
the...ah...presence of a hundred horses. And charging
blindly at night into infantry forces is foolish indeed,
especially with the strobe lights hanging from either
tall trees or helicopters that the orcs carelessly left on.

08-31-2005, 01:25 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,559	Ring driven or Meat Driven? There are all these big time characters that go changed in the films, for better or worse is your own opinion, like Faramir, Aragorn (atleast in the MoS's beheading), Denethor, Gimli...etc But one that doesn't often get talked about, and one I think worth mentioning is Grishnakh. Now in the books, Grishnakh is driven to Merry and Pippin thinking they have the Ring. He is an intellegent orc and he's after the two hobbits thinking they have the ring. The movie I think lessens his intellegence and makes him more meat-driven towards Merry and Pippin. No mention of him thinking he had they had the ring, he was simply after them to eat them. Whether this is good or bad yet, I don't know. There's pro's and con's to both sides. One, I miss a lot of Grishnakh's lines and slick sayings. As well as the trick that Pippin gets Grishnakh to fall into. He plays along with it, knowing Grishnakh thinksh he has the ring, and he gets him to untie them. So, I think we miss sides from both characters, the intellegent Grishnakh, and the clever Pippin. Then on the movie point, there's really no reason to make Grishnakh driven by the ring. We know that Pippin doesn't have the Ring, so any hope of building up suspense for the audience isn't going to work. That's all I can think of for the movies, but perhaps there's more. So, which do you prefer, Ring-driven book Grishnakh, or meat-driven movie Grishnakh? __________________ Fenris Penguin

08-31-2005, 01:35 PM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	Yes, he was a pretty sneaky and clever chap. Movie-Orcs were less interesting. I also would have preferred the Tower of Cirith Ungol to be more subtle as regards the Orcs' dialogue, but it's a minor quibble. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

08-31-2005, 01:45 PM	#3
Kitanna Child of the West Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn Posts: 2,390	I just finished re-reading that chapter in TTT and I was thinking the same thing. I thought Grishnak was a clever Orc and he wasn't really given the credit in the movie. That whole part in the books shows that not all Orcs are stupid, but how smart Merry and Pippin are. I suppose it would be one of those "important, but not so important we need to include it" scenes. Oh well, it would have been nice to have at least one Orc that wasn't completely mindless. __________________ "Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

08-31-2005, 03:41 PM	#4
Beanamir of Gondor Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: the Shadow Gallery Posts: 276	I'm not sure which one was better. With the stupid Grishnakh you got the stupid Merry and Pippin, who sort of float along with whatever happens, and are mainly the comic relief during the moments when Gimli fails. But, then, with the smart Grishnakh, you get to see Pippin saying "gollum, gollum", and actually being useful instead of just another curly mullet with a cute accent beneath. All in all, though the Grishnakh-getting-squashed-by-Treebeard was pretty cool, I would have to go with the Ring-driven Grishnakh. Then he's evil all around--evil to the hobbits because he wants the Ring, and evil to the other orcs because he's betraying them to get it for his own glory. __________________ The answer to life is no longer 42. It's 4 8 15 16 23... 42. "I only lent you my body; you lent me your dream."

09-01-2005, 11:43 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	I can't accept that Glirdan. They may have 'made up' for that by having Pippin outsmart Treebeard, but doesn't that beg an equally poignant question? Being, why was Treebeard so wishy-washy? Well, that's three characters I'm moaning about now. Sorry! __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

08-31-2005, 04:09 PM	#5
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,449	I would really have like to see the clever book Grishnahk because it also portrays Pippin not being so mindless and I really would have liked to see that part. Mind you, in the movie, the made up for that by making him make Treebeard take them to Isengard. Brilliant in my opinion. Anyway, getting off topic. I would really have perfered to have the clever Grishnahk in the movie instead of the usual brain dead orc.

09-02-2005, 12:37 PM	#10
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	I agree, CoD, that movie-Grishnákh was suited to the movie-audience. However, I can't see how movie-Treebeard was more suited. But that's a whole new topic (of which I lay claim to ). The popcorn-munchers enjoy their hungry bloodthirsty monsters. That's why they made Grishnákh into a slobbering beast, rather than a tricksy fiend. That and time constraints. They were probably able to chop off a couple of minutes by doing this. But then, the extended edition... __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-03-2005, 07:17 PM	#11
Lily Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hold on...let me consult this broken compass... Posts: 279	Boromir88, but if we've read the books, we knew Pippin didn't have the Ring. If they'd put Grishnak's Ring-driven-ness in the movie, it still would've built up the suspense of wondering what would happen to Merry and Pippin. I personally would like to have seen Grishnak portrayed by the book. It definitely would've been nice to see more Tolkien and more cleverness in the movie. But then I guess PJ's chased-through-the-woods thing would've been out? I can't really say. Sometimes the things PJ does, brilliant though he is, end in utter stupidity and disaster... Gotta love PJ... __________________ "YOU!" "Indeed."

11-12-2005, 05:43 PM	#12
Bergil Wight Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: the Lepetomaine Gambling Casino For The Insane Posts: 161	2 argunments not yet here The actor who played Grishnakh would, I think, have done the ring-driven version of the scese well (in fact, I hear that version done by the movie actors when I read that scene in the book) And, the book-version requires that Eomer use his un-stupid strategy, rather then rushing in blindly. but when you watch the film, the film version is entertaining. __________________ I support...something.

11-14-2005, 07:03 AM	#13
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	Also, the Uruks would have been very aware of the Rohirrim well before they were attacked by them. It's a bit like the scene where we first see the Riders seconds after 'Gorn, Legolas and Gimli hide from them. Really, they're about four yards away from you: could you not see them? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

05-03-2006, 05:48 PM	#14
Goldberry101 Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 20	I think that having the Ring-driven Grish would have added a lot to the story in that you wouldn't see Orcs as just being these mindless, slobbering idiots that the movie portraies them as. I can see though, how having him meat driven would help for those who have not read the books, it's less information to try to take in at once...I know I saw the movies before I read the books and I wouldn't have understood it at all. It does, however make Treebeard look stupid and makes Pippin look as if he can't think well in a tight spot.

05-04-2006, 07:26 AM	#15
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Actually, I think movie Grisnakh was done very well as a character and it would have been easy for PJ and friends to write in Grisnakh more like the book and Pippin doing his "Gollum" bit. I would think movie viewers would have understood the Ring connection, and desire for it, driving the orcs, like it does all others. I'm ambivalent on the movie Rohirrim charge. It does work well (and necessarily briefly) in the movie, but logically it makes no sense that orcs (who know the Three Walkers are following them) can't detect the...ah...presence of a hundred horses. And charging blindly at night into infantry forces is foolish indeed, especially with the strobe lights hanging from either tall trees or helicopters that the orcs carelessly left on. __________________ Aure Entuluva!