Nimrodel & Amroth

[Lady Eowyn]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 85</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
What exactly happened to Nimrodel and Amroth? Out of the song that Legolas sing, you can't really understand the entire story. And how come, that Nimrodel got lost. She was an Elf, right?? So she shouldn't be dead.. What happened??

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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 364</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Nimrodel &amp; Amroth

If I recall, Nimrodel became lost on her way to the elven port. One of her servants or companions supposedly was found and married by a forfather of Prince Imrahil, but she eventually left to seek the West. Nimrodel presumably was slain by one of the various perils of the world, orcs or otherwise, and never made it to the elven port. Amroth leapt from his ship in an attempt to swim back to shore and seek for Nimrodel. He apparently didn't make it. One of many tragic elven tales told by JRRT.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Nimiriel]

Does anyone know more about the other events that is said to be in the rest of the song? I know the dwarves awoke the balrog, but then what happened?

[Lord of Angmar]

The dwarves awoke the Balrog, who then killed the dwarves and forced many of the people of Lorien to flee their land.

[Finwe]

Nimrodel was one of those people who presumably fled, but she was lost in the region of the White Mountains. Her "friend" or companion, Mithrellas, was found by Imrazor the Numenorean, who "ruled" the area of Dol Amroth, and married him. They had two children, Galador (a boy) and Gilmith (a girl). After the children were born, Mithrellas vanished, presumably leaving to sail West. Galador later became the first Lord of Dol Amroth, and was the first ancestor of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. It was said that the Men of Dol Amroth retained some of the Elven characteristics of their ancestress, and that was probably how, in Gondor, Legolas recognized the presence of Elven blood in Imrahil.

[mark12_30]

Unfinished Tales p. 252-260, in the chapter "History of Celeborn And Galadriel".

There's more later in HoME but I don't have the book it's in (yet).

[Gil-Galad]

Wasn't Amroth lord of LothLorien before Galadriel and Celeborn came? i knew Amroth was in teh second age and fought in the last alliance

[mark12_30]

Amroth's father Amdir fell in the last alliance. Amroth took the throne of Lorien at that time. He loved Nimrodel but he was Sindarin and she was Silvan, and she blamed non-silvan elves for bringing violence to her home. So she loved him but wouldn't marry him. For her sake he lived in the trees; it is uncertain whether Nimrodel or Amroth invented The Flet or Talan, but it was likely one or the other. Cerin Amroth was Amroth's flet, that he lived in for Nimrodel's sake.

When the balrog emerged from hiding and ruined the neighborhood, Nimrodel fled to the eaves of Fangorn Forest (which was closer then) and Amroth found her there. She said if Amroth could find her a place that they could share together and live safely in peace, she would marry him. He replied, "Valinor." She agreed. For her sake, he abdicated his throne and they headed for the havens of Edhellond in Belfalas in order to sail west. Somehow (it doesn't say how) they got split up.

There was one last elven ship waiting at Edhellond, and they wanted more elves for the crew. He arrived at Edhellond; she did not-- she had stopped, exhausted, and lingered by the River Gilrain because it reminded her of her own stream and waterfall; there she had fallen asleep (enchanted sleep??).

He convinced the restless elves to wait for her; she never came; the ship was driven from the dock by a storm; he jumped ship and swam for shore and was never heard of again. Neither was she.

At that time, Galadriel and Celeborn stepped forward, basically as stewards, and ruled Lorien, but they purposely did not call themselves king and queen, just Lord and Lady.

[Nimiriel]

Thank you. I think I've got the story of Amroth and Nimrodel straight now. But does it say anywhere (in HoME or other books) what other events was in the song of Nimrodel?
The thing is I'd like to try and make some verses of my own, just to try it... But then I need to know what happened [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Galin]

(...) it is uncertain whether Nimrodel or Amroth invented The Flet or Talan, but it was likely one or the other.

That's according to a late note, but I think Tolkien had maybe forgotten what he had already published in The Lord of the Rings. In the late note concerning Cerin Amroth, it is said that the flet of Amroth was principally designed to watch Dol Guldur, and the conversion of telain into permanent dwellings was a later development.

This is the idea according to the same text in which Amroth or Nimrodel are noted as probably the first to live in such lofty houses, but this would be after the Shadow came to Mirkwood, around about the end of the first millennium of the Third Age, when Lorien became '... a land of uneasy vigilance, and Amroth must have dwelt in growing disquiet ever since Dol Guldur was established'

But in The Lord of the Rings the notion appears to be that the Galadhrim were noted for living in trees before the Shadow came, with their very name reflecting this. Nimrodel is said to live in a house built in a tree: '... for that was the custom of the Elves of Lorien, to dwell in the trees, and maybe it is so still. Therefore they are called the Galadhrim, the Tree-people. Deep in their forest the trees are very great. The people of the woods did not delve in the ground like Dwarves, nor build strong places of stone before the Shadow came.'

Also, Haldir notes that Amroth's house was built in 'happier days' -- and as I see things, this also fits well with a time before the Shadow came to Dol Guldur.

And with respect to 'unpublished' lore (although published by CJRT of course), the text (1969 or later) Amroth And Nimrodel states: 'Though Sindarin in descent he [Amroth] lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in the tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel.'

So here is another late text as well, and to my mind one that better agrees with already published description. Although no time frame is noted specifically, Amroth was king in Lorien before the Shadow came, and here he housed in Cerin Amroth, after the manner of the Silvan Elves, because of his love for Nimrodel.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I've never quite understood why Nimrodel and Amroth should be such a sad story.

Surely if they were separated and/or lost, like any other sundered Elvish couple they had the option of committing suicide and they'd meet up sooner or later in the Halls of Mandos anyway.

[morwen edhelwen]

Because they never found each other again. I thought the poem implied Amroth drowned.

[Pervinca Took]

Suicide wasn't encouraged, though, was it? I imagine Mandos would have taken a pretty dim view of it.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Suicide wasn't encouraged, though, was it? I imagine Mandos would have taken a pretty dim view of it.

Which raises the question, "What do you think happened to them?"
Maybe they did find each other... I think Nimrodel's flaw was that she was proud and didn't know what to choose between two alternatives. She loved Amroth, but didn't like the Sindar because they had taken over her country, basically.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

" Imrazor the Numenorean, who "ruled" the area of Dol Amroth"

Except it wouldn't have been called Dol Amroth at the time. Imrazor was Prince of Belfalas, which apparently was an established realm of the Faithful Numenoreans which predated Gondor (note his Adunaic name).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

Which raises the question, "What do you think happened to them?"
Maybe they did find each other...

It is quite possible that they did find each other in or on release from Mandos but how would the songmakers of the Silvan realms know? They only know that they didn't come back. The Silvan elves have a different knowlege of and relationship to the Undying Land from the High Elves. They may be less aware of the fate of dead elves. Even Legolas who has better connections than most of his kind regards Galadriel's warning about the sea as speaking to him of his death. Maybe Nimrodel refused the summons to Mandos and her unhoused Fea lingers by her stream while Amroth waits in vain in Eressea.

[mark12_30]

Mithalwen, that was similar to the tack we took in "Friands of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams." We had lots of fun, writing the ending to their story. We still have to wrap up the endings. It feels like saying goodbye to good friends, so I've procrastinated finishing it for-- I--don't--know--how--many--years--now. Maybe I should actually finish it...

[Mithalwen]

And maybe I should read it! Intrigued...
Also have a neglected rpg to work on..

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

It is quite possible that they did find each other in or on release from Mandos but how would the songmakers of the Silvan realms know? They only know that they didn't come back. The Silvan elves have a different knowlege of and relationship to the Undying Land from the High Elves. They may be less aware of the fate of dead elves. Even Legolas who has better connections than most of his kind regards Galadriel's warning about the sea as speaking to him of his death. Maybe Nimrodel refused the summons to Mandos and her unhoused Fea lingers by her stream while Amroth waits in vain in Eressea.

Now that's sad.

[Mithalwen]

It is indeed, which leads me to suspect that it is the likelier scenario somehow - sundered fates seem very Tolkien-ish. While it would be nice to think of them reunited it is all too easy to imagine Nimrodel, reluctant no doubt to have left Lorien in the first place and not perhaps reallly understanding the summons choosing to linger where she had been happy once she was beyond physical danger. I don't know if Tolkien wrote anything more about them in HoME.. I shall have to "run and find out"