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Old 09-08-2015, 06:03 AM   #41
Findegil
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As I work through these text again I found some points missing:
Quote:
Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of E, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein Vala-00.3<Vq2 ; and they are therein>.
Even so Christopher Tolkien does not comment on this it seems that he skipt that half sentence editorially. I dont see a good reason for that and would reinstall it.
From the passage about Tulkas:
Quote:
He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend. Vala-04.5<LQ2 He has great love for {Fionwe, son [>} Enw, herald{]} of Manwe.> His spouse is Nessa, the sister of Orom, and she also is lithe and fleetfooted.
This was skipt by JRR Tolkien from LQ2 to Vq1, but in view of the passages taken from Sil77 about Enw, I think we should also restore this addition.
Quote:
Above all the horns of his host it was heard in the woods that Yavanna brought forth in Valinor; for there Orom would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor. Vala-05.2 {<Vq2 But the Valarma is not blown, and Nahar runs no more upon the Middle-earth since the change of the world and the waning of the Elves, whom he loved.>} The spouse of Orom is Vna, ...
Christopher Tolkien does not provide a reason why he removed that sentence, and we did not discuss it as fare as I could find. So my question is why shouldn't we reinstall it?

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Old 09-10-2015, 09:56 AM   #42
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Ok in everything, I think that the last sentence must be reinserted, it was written by Tolkien and as you said there's no reason to remove it.

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Old 09-18-2015, 02:38 AM   #43
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What about adding the Note on the "Language of the Valar" in the Valaquenta? I think it would be a nice addition.
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Old 09-18-2015, 10:06 AM   #44
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I would say yes it might be worth the effort.

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Old 09-08-2017, 06:33 PM   #45
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Thoughts

I have found a passage in the Note on the Language of the Valar that should be included. It is added into the last paragraph of the section Of the Valar.

Quote:
These are the names of the Valar and the Valier, and here is told in brief their likenesses, such as the Eldar beheld them in Aman. Vala-05.3 <Q&E Now the names that we have for the Valar or the Maiar, whether adapted from the Valarin or translated, are not right names but titles, referring to some function or character of the person; for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them. Save only in the case of Orom.> But fair and noble ...
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:35 PM   #46
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Nice find! I will take it up.

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Old 10-16-2017, 04:43 PM   #47
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BD-03 / Vala-07.2: In the discussion about chapter 1: Of the Beginig of Time Aiwendil supposed an addition from MT, Text VI. He himself speculated that it might batter fit in here. So I proposed these below given placement and editing. We agreed that the Valaquenta is the place for it. And that the editing should be discussed here.
Quote:
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. Vala-07.2 <MT, Text VI Melkor Vala-07.21{must be made}[was] far more powerfull in original nature Vala-07.22{ (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth')}. The greatest power under Eru Vala-07.23{(sc.} ; he was the greatest created power{)}.[Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth{ (p. 322)}: 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.] Vala-07.24{(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manw (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)} >But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...
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Old 10-18-2017, 07:19 AM   #48
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It seems there is are a few points from the past 2+ years on this chapter that I have never responded to, so I’ll look at this now.

Vala-00.3: I agree we should include this phrase that Christopher Tolkien skipped.

Vala-04.5:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
This was skipt by JRR Tolkien from LQ2 to Vq1, but in view of the passages taken from Sil77 about Enw, I think we should also restore this addition.
I don’t understand this reasoning. First of all, I believe we decided not to take the addition to the ’77 about Eonwe’s prowess in arms. Moreover, I don’t see why that has any bearing on the sentence at hand. JRRT deleted this statement, and I don’t see a reason to reinstate it.

Vala-05.2: I agree that we should reinstate this phrase deleted by Christopher Tolkien.

Vala-05.3: I like this addition and don’t see any problems with it.

Vala-07.2: I agree that thisi s the best place for this, but I think a little bit more editing is needed to make it fit, since Tolkien was writing notes to himself here, not text intended to stand in a narrative. Perhaps:

Quote:
Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. For he was Vala-07.2 <MT VI [t]he greatest power under Eru. {(sc. ; he was the greatest created power). [Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth (p. 322): 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.} {(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manw (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)}> But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...
What I’ve done is:

- Remove the note “Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature”. This is Tolkien’s note to himself about how he intends to change the character of Melkor; it means nothing within the tale.
- Remove the “sc. he was the greatest created power”, as this is just Tolkien’s explanatory note about what “the greatest power under Eru” means”
- Remove the footnote, which unless I misunderstand is Christopher Tolkien’s note.
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:01 PM   #49
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Vala-06: You are right, the discussion here ended with the removal of the phrase about Enw being the mighties in arms, so I missed to do that in my working copy. I corrected that now.

Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Enw, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else?

Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense.

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Old 10-19-2017, 06:20 PM   #50
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Quote:
Vala-04.5: All the more I am inclined to reinstal this passage. At least I should explain my reasoning it bit more clear: From the discussion we had about Vala-06 I had the impression that we all were symphatic with the idea of Christopher Tolkien to strenght the character description of Enw, but that we found his addition 'out of blue' unuseable in the scope of our project. Now this sentence can do this, in a way. Yes, JRR Tolkien rejected it, so we do not get any reason. And we reinstalled other skipt passages. But I am not adamant on reinstalling it. Would it be a possibility to take it up some where else?
True, there are passages rejected by JRRT that we have nonetheless included, for various reasons, but we have (I think) done so rather sparingly. In this case, I don't see a pressing reason to second-guess Tolkien. And apart from the question of disregarding Tolkien's textual edits, one can ask the standard question: was this element merely omitted or was it rejected? I think it's likely the latter - indeed, I suspect that it might be the change from Fionwe son of Manwe to Eonwe herald of Manwe that led Tolkien to eliminate the special fondness of Tulkas for him.

Quote:
Vala-07.2: I am okay with your editing. Only in the case of 'sc. the greatest created power' I don't agree. I doesn't matter if Tolkien does writte this phrase as explaination for himself or for any other propose, it can serve as explainaiton for our readers. And in that function it might even make more sense.
OK, that's reasonable. I do think that the passage works better if the two phrases are reversed, though: "he was the greatest created power, the greatest power under Eru". But this may cross the line between permitted outline expansion and forbidden stylistic editing.
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:01 PM   #51
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Sending this draft to gandalf, I realized I had made some changes that I had not commented on. I will do so here:

1)
Quote:
... her more than all others whom Eru made. Vala-0.245 <MT Varda was the most foresighted of all the Valar, possessing the clearest memory of the Music and Vision in which she had played only a small part as actor or player, but had listened most attentively.> Manw and Varda are seldom parted, and they remain in Valinor. Vala-02.5 <LT With them came many of those lesser {Vali}[Ainur] who loved them and had played nigh them and attuned their music to theirs, and these are the Mnir and the Sruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds.> Their halls are above
Since we have elsewhere taken new information from the Book of Lost Tales, and we have used some of the names for the types of the Maiar (such as the Oarni in the Tale of Earendil) I see no reason why we cannot include the information on them here. I also included a small snippet from Myths Transformed, which gives us more info about Varda.

2)
Quote:
... Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manw. Vala-02.7 <LT {with them}With him came the troops of the Oarni and Falmarni and the long-tressed Wingildi, and these are the spirits of the foam and the surf of ocean.>
This is added in the same vein as the previous addition, and gives an introduction to the Oarni who later appear in the Tale of Earendil.

3)
Quote:
... Kementri, Queen of the Earth, she is surnamed in the Eldarin tongue. Vala-03.1 <LT {About them}With Aul and Yavanna fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all their happiness for that reason.>
Another addition in the same vein.

4)
Quote:
... Mightier than Est is Ninna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fanturi}<Vq2 Nmo>; she dwells alone. Vala-04.3 <LT Many other names has she that are spoken seldom and all are grievous, for she is Nri who sighs and {Heskil}[Heskin] who breedeth winter, and all must bow before her as Qualm-Tri the mistress of death.>
I added these titles of hers in from the Lost Tales, since there is no reason not to. I updated the one that needed updating to LotR style Quenya.

5)
Quote:
... All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming. Vala-05.25 <LT She is Tuilr or as the Valar said Vna Tuivna who bringeth spring, and all sing her praises as Tari-Laisi mistress of life.>
Another addition of titles, some of which are later used in other chapters in our current drafts.

6)
Quote:
.... and of her he learned pity and patience.vVala-06 <LT {Last}To Arda last of all came mar who is called Amillo, youngest of the great {Valar}[Maiar], and he sang songs as he came.>
I added this in, since we later mention him in other chapters I believe. I saw no reason to remove him, but I suppose this is a contentious addition and it may be removed.
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Old 02-10-2019, 06:19 AM   #52
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We discussed such addition before and rejected them. The reason was that these addition deal with Maiar, while in the places were we would add them, the text deals with the Valar.

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Old 02-11-2019, 07:04 PM   #53
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Regarding Fin's response to Arcus' first three additions, it is true that Tolkien moved toward a much more structured and delineated approach for this chapter (Elizabeth Whittingham has a good discussion of this in her "Evolution Of Tolkien's Mythology: A Study of the History of Middle-earth"). Maybe we could introduce the lesser spirits later? In Chapter 1, which is where it seems the descriptions of the dwellings were moved? I haven't reviewed that chapter yet, I will see if it makes sense there.

What about the other addition Arcus suggested in 1?

Quote:
Vala-0.245 <MT Varda was the most foresighted of all the Valar, possessing the clearest memory of the Music and Vision in which she had played only a small part as actor or player, but had listened most attentively.>
This looks good to me.

4) I have problems with this addition. The idea that "all must bow before her" (emphasis mine) and that she is the "mistress of death" does not seem to fit with her character in the revisions, in which she becomes the goddess of pity and compassion and strength and wisdom.

5) and 6) I think these additions work well, especially if these other names are used later.

Regarding Vala-07.2 why not just:

Quote:
Vala-07.23b{(sc.} He was the greatest created power <moved under Eru.>{)
This is more of a stylistic change, but it seems like consolidating the two sentences is the simplest solution to avoiding redundancy and keeping both ideas.

Regarding Vala-07, the comment about Olorin being humble, I think we should remove the apostrophes as we are not quoting anybody.

Last edited by gandalf85; 02-11-2019 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:07 PM   #54
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1) Vala-02.45: The addition about Varda from MT is okay for me.

4) Vala-04.3: I think the attributes of being a death goddess were lost for Ninna in the later legendary. So I agree to gandalf85 that this addition is critical.

5) Vala-05.25: Of these names only Tuivna is used later. Nonetheless the adition could be considered.

6) Vala-06: mar is used later, so we could add him, but I think it was by intention that the sub-chapter ends with Olorin.

Vala-07.23b: In thah way it would mean that Eru was a created power, which is not true.

Vala-07: I am okay with removing the apostrophes.

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Old 02-12-2019, 03:22 PM   #55
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Perhaps "He was the greatest power created by Eru."
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:23 PM   #56
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Vala:
That dosnt sound right either to me, since it would suggest that there were other creators. To be honest, I do not see the need to remove the redundance between the text and the footnote. It is not a full redundance; otherwise the footnote would useless. In the way it stands the footnote does make the message more specific.

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Old 02-13-2019, 04:25 PM   #57
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It does not suggest that at all to be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I was more concerned with the flow of it, since at the moment it is very awkward.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:55 PM   #58
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Vala-07.23: What exactly is awakward on the sentence?
Quote:
For he was the greatest power under Eru (that means the greatest created power).
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:08 PM   #59
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Ah i missed the parentheses and the 'that means.' this does make it flow better.
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