Tactical discussion: AFDS (anti-Fell Beast - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 01:44 PM

In addition to trolls and Mumakil, Fell Beasts also present a somewhat thorny problem to tackle (at least Jackson's do. Tolkien's were more reconaissance platforms than actual weapons).

What measures do the noble Captains of Gondor propose to take to meet this threat?

Boromir88 · 02-11-2005, 01:57 PM

Why all you have to do is look at TTT where Faramir shoots one with an arrow. OR you can go the more difficult (but no doubt manlier) route of beheading one, like thy lady Eowyn.

alatar · 02-11-2005, 02:06 PM

Didn't Faramir shoot at one in TTT? Seemed that one arrow smarted enough to drive the thing away.

I'd say shoot many arrows then. Fire arrows would be better.

Gandalf used his magic flashlight to drive them off, but this may have been specific to the Nazgul and not the Fell Beast, so not sure there. How much weight could one carry? Could a bola-like device be useful to foul-up their wings? Once they are grounded, you might want to have a female Rohirrim nearby.

One thing that PJ made me think about that did not occur before I saw the movies was that these beasts weren't just up in the sky making everyone cringe but could be used in very close ground support.

Snorri Swifthammer · 02-11-2005, 02:11 PM

A grapeshot catapult.

Take a normal bowl shaped catapult fill it with small rubble and sharp bits and let loss. Those nice membranous fell beast wings won't appreciate it.

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Why all you have to do is look at TTT where Faramir shoots one with an arrow. OR you can go the more difficult (but no doubt manlier) route of beheading one, like thy lady Eowyn.

Ah, but my lord, it is my sad duty to tell you that in the first example the creature was not slain and in both cases the Beasts were not swooping about, as is their wont.

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

One thing that PJ made me think about that did not occur before I saw the movies was that these beasts weren't just up in the sky making everyone cringe but could be used in very close ground support.

Actually, Tolkien stipulated that the Fell Beasts never came within bowshot. Apparently the Ringwraiths knew better than to dare the skill of the archers of Gondor.

alatar · 02-11-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neurion

Actually, Tolkien stipulated that the Fell Beasts never came within bowshot. Apparently the Ringwraiths knew better than to dare the skill of the archers of Gondor.

Didn't they close in on Faramir's retreating soldiers?

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Didn't they close in on Faramir's retreating soldiers?

No. In one instance they tried to attack Faramir himself (an important commander), before being driven off by Gandalf and the Dol Amroth knights.

*Edit*

I just checked RotK again. The Nazgul only attempt to attack men on the ground twice, and are both times driven off by Gandalf before they can actually cause any harm, though it's at first assumed that they wounded Faramir.

Essex · 02-11-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Ah, but my lord, it is my sad duty to tell you that in the first example the creature was not slain

how do you know the fell beast wasn't slain, because if it was it closes a big plot hole with the nazgul not being able to report back to sauron in time........also someone posted a few weeks back that they only saw 7 fell beasts at the black gate I believe.......

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

how do you know the fell beast wasn't slain, because if it was it closes a big plot hole with the nazgul not being able to report back to sauron in time........also someone posted a few weeks back that they only saw 7 fell beasts at the black gate I believe.......

I think there were only 6 at the Black Gate.

Ainaserkewen · 02-11-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

how do you know the fell beast wasn't slain, because if it was it closes a big plot hole with the nazgul not being able to report back to sauron in time........

If all you had to do to slay a fell beast or a "Nazgul" as all the production team called them, was to hit it with an arrow, don't you think the Gondorians would have been less afraid of them and just shoot at them?

Also, you can't deny the utter cool-ness of how they showed the beheading by Eowyn. The sound effects, the visuals, ah, pure enchantment.

Lindolirian · 02-11-2005, 07:50 PM

This would do nicely.
However in the event of the lack of technological ability, I would suggest biological warfare. Naturally, the nasty creatures are like carrion-fowl, so all one needs to do is spread some rotten, disease-ridden meat out on an old battlefield and wait for the suckers to take a lunch break. After ingesting the disease, they opt to use their sick days while your army moves in and kills 'em while they're down and out.

alatar · 02-11-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

However in the event of the lack of technological ability, I would suggest biological warfare. Naturally, the nasty creatures are like carrion-fowl, so all one needs to do is spread some rotten, disease-ridden meat out on an old battlefield and wait for the suckers to take a lunch break. After ingesting the disease, they opt to use their sick days while your army moves in and kills 'em while they're down and out.

Bio-warfare's a nasty two-edged sword, and so I'd be careful there. Plus, as these are Mordor folk, does 'rotten' mean Lembas? And if they didn't eat Gimpy Gothmog on site, then I'm not sure if they're even hungry.

Neurion · 02-11-2005, 09:36 PM

I hereby present to my esteemed allies of Gondor the weapon that will change your fortunes in this war! Mumak, Troll, Fell Beast, nought can stand against the Gondor Avenger!!

Gondor Avenger

The Only Real Estel · 02-13-2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

If all you had to do to slay a fell beast or a "Nazgul" as all the production team called them, was to hit it with an arrow, don't you think the Gondorians would have been less afraid of them and just shoot at them

True, but Legolas shot one down in the books and you never read anything about the Gondorians shooting them down. Not to mention Jackson's version of the Gondorians makes them out to be rather wimpy.

As to how to combat them, why don't we just call in the Eagles, since they so easily beat them up in the RotK movie?

Essex · 02-13-2005, 10:52 AM

did we see any eagle actually defeat a fell beast? they all shot to mount doom once they got the call from sauron.

The Only Real Estel · 02-13-2005, 11:19 AM

True, but they were giving them hell before that.

Essex · 02-13-2005, 01:18 PM

In the 'real' (i.e. book) scheme of things, weren't the Eagles Maiar or their equivilant? (sorry if I picked the wrong name). So I suppose they could give the Fell Beasts a good fight......

Beleg Cuthalion · 02-13-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

In the 'real' (i.e. book) scheme of things, weren't the Eagles Maiar or their equivilant? (sorry if I picked the wrong name). So I suppose they could give the Fell Beasts a good fight......

We couldn't really use the Eagles of Manwe because they're basically the representatives of the Valar and come and go as they will.

Maeggaladiel · 02-17-2005, 01:17 PM

Two words: Guided missiles.
Okay, okay, so they didn't have guided missiles. Cannons with chain-shots? No? Okay... How about trebuchets? No trebuchets? Sheez! What is wrong with you, Gondor!? What; you expect to defeat them with creative insults?!

All right, all right, I guess I'd say go for the wings. Their main advantages are their size and ability to fly. If we could shoot their wings with arrows or catapulted rocks, we could take them out once they hit the ground.

What would be really handy was if we could somehow attach strong ropes or wires to the arrows, then shoot them into the fell beast and tie him off. They'd have to be really strong, though, elsewise the beast would break free in a minute. If we could get a lot of ropes on one, we could pull it down to the ground and either behead it or set it on fire. We'd have the nasgul to look out for, though, so maybe fire would be the best bet. Get some of Denny's patented oil and dump it on the monster, then torch away, baby.

Did I just write three paragraphs about how to kill a fictional creature? *shakes head.* Man... I need a life.

~Maeg
I'm buying Gondor guided missiles.

Meneltarmacil · 03-03-2005, 07:49 PM

What we really need to find is a medieval equivalent of an anti-arcraft gun, and so I think this may work:

Take a ballista and mount it on a swiveling platform, then make it so it can be angled up and down. This should be able to take a Fell Beast out with one shot, providing Gondorian soldiers can aim the thing well.

Oh, as an alternative tactic one could try to shoot the ringwraiths on their backs with flaming arrows (as I recall, the Nazgul did not particularily like being set on fire...)

Bergil · 11-16-2005, 07:46 PM

No-one had an easy job of Killing them because no-one expected an air force. someone suggested an anti-air ballista, that might work. The suggestion of a bolas also holds water. But the best idea would be a trap. Lure 1 away from the others with an easy target such as a lone rider, seemingly a scout far from any help (the Nazgul seem very organized to me), then knock him out of the sky with the catapult you're hiding. This will also temporarily squish the Ringwraith.

Edit: the Fell beast will also be lured close to the ground

Tuor of Gondolin · 11-17-2005, 12:12 PM

If the Gondorians are good archers why not copy their
(in the book) going after the eyes of the Mumakil?

Feanor of the Peredhil · 11-17-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

in the event of the lack of technological ability, I would suggest biological warfare.

Even if Gondor had a more appropriate arsenal for trying to take these blighters out, I would still incorporate biological warfare. The trick is to find out what's going to do the most damage to the immune system and sneak it into your enemy, whether by food or whatever. If your enemy can't move, you don't have to worry about shooting him out of the sky.

ManofDale · 12-13-2005, 12:07 PM

Interesting thread! Yes ballistas would be the ultimate defense against a Fell Beast and a whole regiment of Archers but you forget that any military organization would be futile because of the Nazgul's presence and the scream of the Fell Beast. Thus for any attempt to be made on these air attackers, one of such prowess would have to lead the soldiers into holding their positions like Gandalf did at the battle of Minas Tirith.

Farael · 12-13-2005, 06:28 PM

A little problem with war machinery like ballestae and catapults is that they weren't very easy to aim. The only way to hit the spot you wanted with a catapult was to shoot repeatedly until you hit the mark. Also, you would usually be aiming at a big, tall wall rather than at a comparatively small fell beast. Ballistae I'm not sure but I would guess they were not aimed at all (besides towards the marching lines of the enemy) after all, with one ballista shoot you can probably take down a bunch of people at once. Even if ballistae were "aimable" it would not be an easy process as the fell beasts would be moving around. Archers would be the best choice yet it is said they stayed out bow range.

Biological warfare is a tricky subject, as orcs and humans probably have VERY different immune sistems and I don't know who (outside of Mordor) knew enough about orcs to know what would make them sick. Furthermore, it is possible that whatever makes an orc sick would outright kill a human. And then, how do you deliver your pathogen? say, rotten food... will you invite them for dinner?

Poisoning a river could be, but you would need an awful lot of poison, assuming it works on orcs...

My solution? take the bus into Mordor, get off at Mt. Doom station and destroy one or two "The Ring"'s

Oh, that's not how it happens?

then I would guess just try to hold them back with fire and Gandalf, and pray for the best... after all, it is likely that they do not have many fell beasts so even if you loose a few soldiers for each of those you kill, it might just be worth it.

Lindolirian · 12-13-2005, 10:33 PM

A Fell Beast could be a tricky target for a large ballista, but as Legolas proved over the Anduin, they aren't invincible. But of course I doubt that Fell Beast was as wary for flying arrows as one would be in a large scale battle and Legolas's hit may well have been a fluke. To insure a good hit you must attract the targets to something they would go for anyway... like a King of Rohan. Make sure every top general or leader has a poisoned dart he could shoot the Fell Beast with... and a fast horse to get away. Of course it's not as if in doing this we're endangering the most important men on the battlefield because the Nazgul would go for them anyway. Why not equip them to protect themselves and countless others.

Now as for discovering what ails the Fell Beasts? Ummm. Ask them? I'll get back to you on that one.

Eowyn Skywalker · 12-31-2005, 07:30 PM

The best (logical) way to do in a fell beast would be some form of ranged weapon. Of course, lacking lasers or other such weapontry that could easily make things go in a completely differing direction, the logical idea would be as previously mentioned either arrows or a catapult.

One can assume that the Nazgul and fell beasts were smart enough to stay out of range of these.

I would recommand finding either some other way to fly, or getting Gandalf to summon up a windstorm of some sort. If he could. Getting a fell beast caught in a tornado might help get them out of midair. If not, air to air attacks (unfortunately the Gondorians lack x-wings) or the good ol' beheading might work. Not as showy as most movies require, but effective.

02-11-2005, 01:44 PM	#1
Neurion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs Posts: 262	Tactical discussion: AFDS (anti-Fell Beast defensive systems) In addition to trolls and Mumakil, Fell Beasts also present a somewhat thorny problem to tackle (at least Jackson's do. Tolkien's were more reconaissance platforms than actual weapons). What measures do the noble Captains of Gondor propose to take to meet this threat? __________________ ____________________________________ "And a cold voice rang forth from the blade. Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." Last edited by Neurion; 02-11-2005 at 01:50 PM.

02-11-2005, 07:50 PM	#12
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	This would do nicely. However in the event of the lack of technological ability, I would suggest biological warfare. Naturally, the nasty creatures are like carrion-fowl, so all one needs to do is spread some rotten, disease-ridden meat out on an old battlefield and wait for the suckers to take a lunch break. After ingesting the disease, they opt to use their sick days while your army moves in and kills 'em while they're down and out. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

02-11-2005, 09:36 PM	#14
Neurion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs Posts: 262	You're worries are over I hereby present to my esteemed allies of Gondor the weapon that will change your fortunes in this war! Mumak, Troll, Fell Beast, nought can stand against the Gondor Avenger!! Gondor Avenger __________________ ____________________________________ "And a cold voice rang forth from the blade. Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

02-17-2005, 01:17 PM	#20
Maeggaladiel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: The end of the world as we know it. I feel fine, incidentally. Posts: 512	Two words: Guided missiles. Okay, okay, so they didn't have guided missiles. Cannons with chain-shots? No? Okay... How about trebuchets? No trebuchets? Sheez! What is wrong with you, Gondor!? What; you expect to defeat them with creative insults?! All right, all right, I guess I'd say go for the wings. Their main advantages are their size and ability to fly. If we could shoot their wings with arrows or catapulted rocks, we could take them out once they hit the ground. What would be really handy was if we could somehow attach strong ropes or wires to the arrows, then shoot them into the fell beast and tie him off. They'd have to be really strong, though, elsewise the beast would break free in a minute. If we could get a lot of ropes on one, we could pull it down to the ground and either behead it or set it on fire. We'd have the nasgul to look out for, though, so maybe fire would be the best bet. Get some of Denny's patented oil and dump it on the monster, then torch away, baby. Did I just write three paragraphs about how to kill a fictional creature? shakes head. Man... I need a life. ~Maeg I'm buying Gondor guided missiles. __________________ "Wide ne bith wel," cwaeth se the geheirde on helle hriman.

03-03-2005, 07:49 PM	#21
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,287	What we really need to find is a medieval equivalent of an anti-arcraft gun, and so I think this may work: Take a ballista and mount it on a swiveling platform, then make it so it can be angled up and down. This should be able to take a Fell Beast out with one shot, providing Gondorian soldiers can aim the thing well. Oh, as an alternative tactic one could try to shoot the ringwraiths on their backs with flaming arrows (as I recall, the Nazgul did not particularily like being set on fire...) __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

02-11-2005, 01:57 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,559	Why all you have to do is look at TTT where Faramir shoots one with an arrow. OR you can go the more difficult (but no doubt manlier) route of beheading one, like thy lady Eowyn.

02-11-2005, 02:06 PM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,499	Didn't Faramir shoot at one in TTT? Seemed that one arrow smarted enough to drive the thing away. I'd say shoot many arrows then. Fire arrows would be better. Gandalf used his magic flashlight to drive them off, but this may have been specific to the Nazgul and not the Fell Beast, so not sure there. How much weight could one carry? Could a bola-like device be useful to foul-up their wings? Once they are grounded, you might want to have a female Rohirrim nearby. One thing that PJ made me think about that did not occur before I saw the movies was that these beasts weren't just up in the sky making everyone cringe but could be used in very close ground support.

02-11-2005, 02:11 PM	#4
Snorri Swifthammer Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Erebor Posts: 49	A grapeshot catapult. Take a normal bowl shaped catapult fill it with small rubble and sharp bits and let loss. Those nice membranous fell beast wings won't appreciate it.

02-13-2005, 10:52 AM	#16
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	did we see any eagle actually defeat a fell beast? they all shot to mount doom once they got the call from sauron.

02-13-2005, 11:19 AM	#17
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 3,025	True, but they were giving them hell before that.

02-13-2005, 01:18 PM	#18
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	In the 'real' (i.e. book) scheme of things, weren't the Eagles Maiar or their equivilant? (sorry if I picked the wrong name). So I suppose they could give the Fell Beasts a good fight......

11-16-2005, 07:46 PM	#22
Bergil Wight Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: the Lepetomaine Gambling Casino For The Insane Posts: 161	prepare No-one had an easy job of Killing them because no-one expected an air force. someone suggested an anti-air ballista, that might work. The suggestion of a bolas also holds water. But the best idea would be a trap. Lure 1 away from the others with an easy target such as a lone rider, seemingly a scout far from any help (the Nazgul seem very organized to me), then knock him out of the sky with the catapult you're hiding. This will also temporarily squish the Ringwraith. Edit: the Fell beast will also be lured close to the ground __________________ I support...something.

11-17-2005, 12:12 PM	#23
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	If the Gondorians are good archers why not copy their (in the book) going after the eyes of the Mumakil? __________________ Aure Entuluva!

12-13-2005, 12:07 PM	#25
ManofDale Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the streets of Dale in Wilderland. Posts: 11	Interesting thread! Yes ballistas would be the ultimate defense against a Fell Beast and a whole regiment of Archers but you forget that any military organization would be futile because of the Nazgul's presence and the scream of the Fell Beast. Thus for any attempt to be made on these air attackers, one of such prowess would have to lead the soldiers into holding their positions like Gandalf did at the battle of Minas Tirith. __________________ Dale.. Tall and mighty we once stood, Like the Gondor Kings of Old, Yet in the distance a wind blew, From the dreaded North, A flaming shadow blanketed us, We were reduced to ruin, Like a bare skeleton of stone.

12-13-2005, 06:28 PM	#26
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,549	A little problem with war machinery like ballestae and catapults is that they weren't very easy to aim. The only way to hit the spot you wanted with a catapult was to shoot repeatedly until you hit the mark. Also, you would usually be aiming at a big, tall wall rather than at a comparatively small fell beast. Ballistae I'm not sure but I would guess they were not aimed at all (besides towards the marching lines of the enemy) after all, with one ballista shoot you can probably take down a bunch of people at once. Even if ballistae were "aimable" it would not be an easy process as the fell beasts would be moving around. Archers would be the best choice yet it is said they stayed out bow range. Biological warfare is a tricky subject, as orcs and humans probably have VERY different immune sistems and I don't know who (outside of Mordor) knew enough about orcs to know what would make them sick. Furthermore, it is possible that whatever makes an orc sick would outright kill a human. And then, how do you deliver your pathogen? say, rotten food... will you invite them for dinner? Poisoning a river could be, but you would need an awful lot of poison, assuming it works on orcs... My solution? take the bus into Mordor, get off at Mt. Doom station and destroy one or two "The Ring"'s Oh, that's not how it happens? then I would guess just try to hold them back with fire and Gandalf, and pray for the best... after all, it is likely that they do not have many fell beasts so even if you loose a few soldiers for each of those you kill, it might just be worth it.

12-13-2005, 10:33 PM	#27
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	Delivering the Pathogen? A Fell Beast could be a tricky target for a large ballista, but as Legolas proved over the Anduin, they aren't invincible. But of course I doubt that Fell Beast was as wary for flying arrows as one would be in a large scale battle and Legolas's hit may well have been a fluke. To insure a good hit you must attract the targets to something they would go for anyway... like a King of Rohan. Make sure every top general or leader has a poisoned dart he could shoot the Fell Beast with... and a fast horse to get away. Of course it's not as if in doing this we're endangering the most important men on the battlefield because the Nazgul would go for them anyway. Why not equip them to protect themselves and countless others. Now as for discovering what ails the Fell Beasts? Ummm. Ask them? I'll get back to you on that one. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

12-31-2005, 07:30 PM	#28
Eowyn Skywalker Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Somewhere far, far away. Eh. Posts: 409	The best (logical) way to do in a fell beast would be some form of ranged weapon. Of course, lacking lasers or other such weapontry that could easily make things go in a completely differing direction, the logical idea would be as previously mentioned either arrows or a catapult. One can assume that the Nazgul and fell beasts were smart enough to stay out of range of these. I would recommand finding either some other way to fly, or getting Gandalf to summon up a windstorm of some sort. If he could. Getting a fell beast caught in a tornado might help get them out of midair. If not, air to air attacks (unfortunately the Gondorians lack x-wings) or the good ol' beheading might work. Not as showy as most movies require, but effective. __________________ Sometimes worlds collide. This time, they got their own webpage. Join Middle-earth: Insanity forums today.