Seigneur des Anneaux! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of the Feet of Melkor · 09-10-2002, 08:31 PM

Have you ever noticed the BAD translations in the french version of LotR?? Ive read the french versions a few times...but I knew I had to start a thread so others who feel the same way can talk about it.

Oh come on,
Grand-pas...big steps...strides..it makes sense but it doesnt do the name Strider justice! and besides it sounds to much like grandpa [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] when you say it...

Anyone else out there who feels the same way???

Galadrie1 · 09-10-2002, 08:50 PM

I haven't actually read the French version of LotR, but I was in Quebec a couple months ago and flipped through a copy I found in a bookstore. Only some of the names are weird.. Like Frodon and Bilbon Sacquet, and, like you said, Grand-Pas (which is pretty strange). I think the Frodon and Bilbon change is just to make it easier to pronounce... correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it kind of weird to say something in French that just ends it "o"?
Oh! Another thing, if you were a French person who didn't speak (or read) English, you probably wouldn't make the connection between Grand-Pas and grandpa.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

Keeper of the Feet of Melkor · 09-10-2002, 09:03 PM

I dont find it hard to pronounce words that end in o...but who knows maybe in france its dif.

But I do agree with you about the whole grandpa connection...then again most ppl know french and english. Although its hard to say...*ponders*

For the record...I did learn English first...which makes me think I could be wrong. But the translations still suck!

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Keeper of the Feet of Melkor ]

Birdland · 09-10-2002, 11:22 PM

Melkor's Feet Keeper - This is a topic that always fascinates me; how translations of books vary from the original language of the text.

Sometimes I get the impression that translators seem to be way too "literal", instead of choosing words that would suggest the same image or thought that the author intended.

In the case of "Grand-Pas" for "Strider", could you suggest another word that would give a French reader the sense of a man who is a wanderer, or a far-ranging traveler?

Hmmmmm...that suggests another question. What do they call a "Ranger" in the French translation?

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Tirned Tinnu · 09-11-2002, 07:59 AM

This from an online translator that I use at work:
ranger: garde-forestier
far - walker: loin le promeneur
fast walker: promeneur rapide
tall man: grand homme
runner: courreur

You can see where they got the idea of "Grand-pa." I cannot think of another name unless you simply use "Walker" and call him "Promeneur"...

Bêthberry · 09-11-2002, 08:15 AM

In Canada, there is the word coureur des bois, "runner of the woods," meaning voyageur, the early men who "ran" the fur trade by transporting furs in canoes via the rivers and lakes. Voyageur is "wayfarer" as an adjective or "traveller" as a noun. They were the first non-indigenous geographers and cartographers of New France. "Voyageur" is used in both French and English in Canada.

Both of those seem to me to fit Strider far better than "Mr. Take a giant step" (j/k) or "Runner."

Bethberry

Maédhros · 09-11-2002, 08:17 AM

I haven't read the french translation either, but having read a spanish one, I was amazed to find several changes in the names of the Characters.
Strider = Trancos
Baggins = Bolson
These are accurate translations, but I think that you should leave the names of the characters intact.

Birdland · 09-11-2002, 11:23 AM

Every language has its obsolete or slang terms that people are familiar with, even if the words are not commonly used anymore.

The verb "to stride" is old-fashioned, and generally not used in everyday English conversation anymore, but "Strider" would immediately give someone a mental image of a person walking with proud steps. (Much better than "Trotter". Thank goodness Tolkien changed his mind on that one.)

Bethberry's voyageur seems to hit closer to the mark, but I don't speak French. Does that read better to you, KoFM?

Bêthberry · 09-11-2002, 11:28 AM

Birdie,

One problem with voyageur is that we would have to be careful to avoid the tendency to shorten it to voyeur, would we? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Bethberry

Keeper of the Feet of Melkor · 09-14-2002, 06:39 PM

I agree with all of you,
the only thing Im not sure about is those online translators...theyre not always right. Ive used them, and sometimes when you write a word with more than one meaning (depending on the sense) the translator messes up and spits out the wrong word. (just to warn ya)

Ranger-garde-forestier, you all do realize that translation is refering to a forest ranger (almost like a conservation officer)....*just making sure*

As for other translations...tall man...grand homme...there are other meanings to that...
-in my opinion Id say: un homme de grande taille...but thats just me...

Im not going to touch the rest of them, but if want to know anything just ask!!!

***Sharkû*** · 09-14-2002, 07:31 PM

The international card lists of the Decipher trading card game actually serve as a very nice tool to compare some of the most important terms (and quotes!) of Middle-Earth in Deutsch, Español, Français, Italiano, Português, Polski, and Chinese. In that sense: Jam jest sluga Tajemnego Oguia, wladam plomieniem Arnoru. Nie przejdziesz.

stone of vision · 09-23-2002, 07:29 AM

Suilad, mellyn

We French Tolkien readers are not satisfied by the awful and unique French translation of Tolkien's oeuvre by F Ledoux either!
Some of my compatriots called him cynically le Saigneur des anneaux ( the bleeder of the rings) and dedicate a webpage to it.

All languages have their own idiom, and it's always difficult to translate fairly a text when you're not a native speaker.
Fortunatly, Tolkien style and stories are powerful enough that even in bad French translation full of errors, Lotr keeps
the deep of its inner soul.
Well imho, The french translation is a pale copy of the original text, and if it's still a good introduction to Tolkien's universe, it becomes swiftly decieving for those who wish to further their journey in Middle-Earth.
Reading the the original text was for me an enlightment, really!
I admit i wouldn't be able to translate it though...

for Strider :To walk with long steps in vigorous way, ... long steps... big steps.. Grand pas, means walking with big steps in a hasty and determined way.
Granpa is Grand-père in France [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Galadriel1 the o-n in frodo/ frodon is easier for the french accent to pronounce, it kinda sweetens the hard sound of the "o"
Baggins = bag.. sac.. small sac.. sacquet

Birdland, in The French translation, F ledoux chose the word "Rodeur" for Ranger
Rodeur means in french, a stroller, wanderer traveler, even sometimes a tramp ( vagagabond) with a touch of danger and mystery

be lenient, with us, if the french version could make you smile that would be a good thing at least [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Namarie tenn' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Birdland · 09-24-2002, 12:51 AM

Stone of Vision - "Rodeur". Wow, that's pretty good. Sound like it's pretty much on the mark.

Of course, being an American, the word "Ranger" is forever colored in my mind with "The Lone Ranger", a mysterious Cowboy Superhero type who shows up to "save the day" and aid people in distress.

I don't know if "Ranger" would have the same connotations for a British speaker. I guess the closest idea to the "Lone Ranger" in England would be the Scarlet Pimpernel, or Robin Hood.

Now would a French speaker make that same step as well, if they heard the word "Rodeur"?

Geez, I love this kinda stuff! Too bad I never got beyond speaking fractured Spanish. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

stone of vision · 09-24-2002, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Now would a French speaker make that same step as well, if they heard the word "Rodeur"?

I think rodeur is quite a good chosen term to design Strider (for once). In my mind , being French, the meaning of rodeur is ambivalent.
A rodeur can be a tramp from the worse kind, a bandit-thief, dangerous lurker, a predator, someone inspiring mistrust and fear... not a brilliant portrayal is it?
But thinking of it, isn't the feeling Aragorn is making to Bree inhabitants ?
On the other hands, a rodeur can be a rebel, a wanderer most of time skilled fighter, someone who refuse allegiance to power in place, because of its
free opinion, a falling knight by adversity...who had no choice to hide its true self behind a vagabond mask... there's a word in japanese for that "ronin" ( fallen samurai)....and Aragorn is hidden behind Strider..
"All that is gold doesn't glitter." How that verse is appropiate!
That's how i imagined Aragorn when i first met him in the French book, ambivalence Strider the ranger/ Aragorn the king, ambivalence concerning the Ring , Isildur the traitor's heir/ isildur the high numerean King' heir, ambivalence concerning Arwen, the young man she shouldn't love/ the wise and noble man she abandoned immortality for... mmh where am I'm going there, gone with the "roding" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

My two French cents [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Namarie tenn'

09-10-2002, 08:31 PM	#1
Keeper of the Feet of Melkor Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 45	Seigneur des Anneaux! Have you ever noticed the BAD translations in the french version of LotR?? Ive read the french versions a few times...but I knew I had to start a thread so others who feel the same way can talk about it. Oh come on, Grand-pas...big steps...strides..it makes sense but it doesnt do the name Strider justice! and besides it sounds to much like grandpa [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] when you say it... Anyone else out there who feels the same way??? __________________ Nazgul, just evil hiding under sheets (reference to the Chronocals of Zoe and Kelly, retrieved from the depths of English class)

09-10-2002, 08:50 PM	#2
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 399	I haven't actually read the French version of LotR, but I was in Quebec a couple months ago and flipped through a copy I found in a bookstore. Only some of the names are weird.. Like Frodon and Bilbon Sacquet, and, like you said, Grand-Pas (which is pretty strange). I think the Frodon and Bilbon change is just to make it easier to pronounce... correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it kind of weird to say something in French that just ends it "o"? Oh! Another thing, if you were a French person who didn't speak (or read) English, you probably wouldn't make the connection between Grand-Pas and grandpa. [ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] [ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

09-10-2002, 09:03 PM	#3
Keeper of the Feet of Melkor Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 45	I dont find it hard to pronounce words that end in o...but who knows maybe in france its dif. But I do agree with you about the whole grandpa connection...then again most ppl know french and english. Although its hard to say...ponders For the record...I did learn English first...which makes me think I could be wrong. But the translations still suck! [ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Keeper of the Feet of Melkor ] __________________ Nazgul, just evil hiding under sheets (reference to the Chronocals of Zoe and Kelly, retrieved from the depths of English class)

09-11-2002, 07:59 AM	#5
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	This from an online translator that I use at work: ranger: garde-forestier far - walker: loin le promeneur fast walker: promeneur rapide tall man: grand homme runner: courreur You can see where they got the idea of "Grand-pa." I cannot think of another name unless you simply use "Walker" and call him "Promeneur"... __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-11-2002, 08:15 AM	#6
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,164	In Canada, there is the word coureur des bois, "runner of the woods," meaning voyageur, the early men who "ran" the fur trade by transporting furs in canoes via the rivers and lakes. Voyageur is "wayfarer" as an adjective or "traveller" as a noun. They were the first non-indigenous geographers and cartographers of New France. "Voyageur" is used in both French and English in Canada. Both of those seem to me to fit Strider far better than "Mr. Take a giant step" (j/k) or "Runner." Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-10-2002, 11:22 PM	#4
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Melkor's Feet Keeper - This is a topic that always fascinates me; how translations of books vary from the original language of the text. Sometimes I get the impression that translators seem to be way too "literal", instead of choosing words that would suggest the same image or thought that the author intended. In the case of "Grand-Pas" for "Strider", could you suggest another word that would give a French reader the sense of a man who is a wanderer, or a far-ranging traveler? Hmmmmm...that suggests another question. What do they call a "Ranger" in the French translation? [ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

09-11-2002, 08:17 AM	#7
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	I haven't read the french translation either, but having read a spanish one, I was amazed to find several changes in the names of the Characters. Strider = Trancos Baggins = Bolson These are accurate translations, but I think that you should leave the names of the characters intact. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

09-11-2002, 11:23 AM	#8
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Every language has its obsolete or slang terms that people are familiar with, even if the words are not commonly used anymore. The verb "to stride" is old-fashioned, and generally not used in everyday English conversation anymore, but "Strider" would immediately give someone a mental image of a person walking with proud steps. (Much better than "Trotter". Thank goodness Tolkien changed his mind on that one.) Bethberry's voyageur seems to hit closer to the mark, but I don't speak French. Does that read better to you, KoFM?

09-11-2002, 11:28 AM	#9
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,164	Birdie, One problem with voyageur is that we would have to be careful to avoid the tendency to shorten it to voyeur, would we? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-14-2002, 06:39 PM	#10
Keeper of the Feet of Melkor Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 45	I agree with all of you, the only thing Im not sure about is those online translators...theyre not always right. Ive used them, and sometimes when you write a word with more than one meaning (depending on the sense) the translator messes up and spits out the wrong word. (just to warn ya) Ranger-garde-forestier, you all do realize that translation is refering to a forest ranger (almost like a conservation officer)....just making sure As for other translations...tall man...grand homme...there are other meanings to that... -in my opinion Id say: un homme de grande taille...but thats just me... Im not going to touch the rest of them, but if want to know anything just ask!!! __________________ Nazgul, just evil hiding under sheets (reference to the Chronocals of Zoe and Kelly, retrieved from the depths of English class)

09-14-2002, 07:31 PM	#11
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	The international card lists of the Decipher trading card game actually serve as a very nice tool to compare some of the most important terms (and quotes!) of Middle-Earth in Deutsch, Español, Français, Italiano, Português, Polski, and Chinese. In that sense: Jam jest sluga Tajemnego Oguia, wladam plomieniem Arnoru. Nie przejdziesz.

09-23-2002, 07:29 AM	#12
stone of vision Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: France Posts: 69	Suilad, mellyn We French Tolkien readers are not satisfied by the awful and unique French translation of Tolkien's oeuvre by F Ledoux either! Some of my compatriots called him cynically le Saigneur des anneaux ( the bleeder of the rings) and dedicate a webpage to it. All languages have their own idiom, and it's always difficult to translate fairly a text when you're not a native speaker. Fortunatly, Tolkien style and stories are powerful enough that even in bad French translation full of errors, Lotr keeps the deep of its inner soul. Well imho, The french translation is a pale copy of the original text, and if it's still a good introduction to Tolkien's universe, it becomes swiftly decieving for those who wish to further their journey in Middle-Earth. Reading the the original text was for me an enlightment, really! I admit i wouldn't be able to translate it though... for Strider :To walk with long steps in vigorous way, ... long steps... big steps.. Grand pas, means walking with big steps in a hasty and determined way. Granpa is Grand-père in France [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Galadriel1 the o-n in frodo/ frodon is easier for the french accent to pronounce, it kinda sweetens the hard sound of the "o" Baggins = bag.. sac.. small sac.. sacquet Birdland, in The French translation, F ledoux chose the word "Rodeur" for Ranger Rodeur means in french, a stroller, wanderer traveler, even sometimes a tramp ( vagagabond) with a touch of danger and mystery be lenient, with us, if the french version could make you smile that would be a good thing at least [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Namarie tenn' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ silmarillien All that is gold doesn't glitter. ********************************* Nee, ai**ara Dare mo ga konna kodoku ni naru no?

09-24-2002, 12:51 AM	#13
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Stone of Vision - "Rodeur". Wow, that's pretty good. Sound like it's pretty much on the mark. Of course, being an American, the word "Ranger" is forever colored in my mind with "The Lone Ranger", a mysterious Cowboy Superhero type who shows up to "save the day" and aid people in distress. I don't know if "Ranger" would have the same connotations for a British speaker. I guess the closest idea to the "Lone Ranger" in England would be the Scarlet Pimpernel, or Robin Hood. Now would a French speaker make that same step as well, if they heard the word "Rodeur"? Geez, I love this kinda stuff! Too bad I never got beyond speaking fractured Spanish. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

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