In the Shadow of the Star: Discussion Thread (Part 1) - Page 10 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mithadan*** · 03-13-2003, 09:49 AM

If Gamba, et al. were supposed to escape, please advise and I will delete or modify my post.

mark12_30 · 03-13-2003, 10:54 AM

Mith & Bird, that was good.

Child, I'll modify what I sent you, and send it again.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-13-2003, 01:27 PM

Great posts with the arrival of the children! It seems we are in for a time of confusion. Bird was definitely right.

I filled in my earlier post of 3/13 at 1:11 a.m. using that same theme. Maura is stunned that Pio is alive and in the Shire. The last he heard she had croaked in Gondolin!

Pio, I'm not sure if I got your response right in this scene. Look at what I said, and if you feel you'd prefer something different, go ahead and edit.

sharon

piosenniel · 03-13-2003, 01:37 PM

The response is fine.

WhiteLady - Hello, Rose! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Please see my latest PM to you.

Child of the 7th Age · 03-13-2003, 01:50 PM

Pio,

Great minds think alike! I had just sent you a note about this and also one to White Lady.

I assume you two will straighten this out.

sharon

***Mithadan*** · 03-13-2003, 02:57 PM

If Auntie Bird wants fuss and mayhem, Auntie Bird gets fuss and mayhem....

mark12_30 · 03-13-2003, 03:03 PM

Mith, you may bring Gamba in to Pio for an apology at your haste or liesure, if she doesn't ride away on 'Falmar first. He won't want to go inside the nasty building.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

piosenniel · 03-13-2003, 03:06 PM

Pio has left the building . . . and the West Farthing, too, for that matter . . .

mark12_30 · 03-13-2003, 03:10 PM

I can't imagine why. Oversensitive.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

mark12_30 · 03-13-2003, 06:29 PM

Does anybody have a plan for finding Ban and Zira? Lindo knows them and could find them (or at least contact them and get a description of there location) with osanwe.

That is, unless he was seriously distracted by something else. Bird's presence, or her distress, perhaps?
Lindo would also like to see Pio, if she ever comes back.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-13-2003, 08:12 PM

Helen,

Bird and I set up the Zira, Abar thing early this morning by e-mail. She promised to post and resolve the situation when she returned from work.

Remember the first night in Gondolin when Abar fed morsels to the black bird while his family ate? Also remember how Bird attacked Lindo that night when he was out walking and talking with Maura?

sharon

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

piosenniel · 03-13-2003, 08:14 PM

Gandalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Please check your PM's.

Birdland · 03-14-2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:

If Auntie Bird wants fuss and mayhem, Auntie Bird gets fuss and mayhem....

But that is not my doing. I merely foretell. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

piosenniel · 03-14-2003, 03:24 AM

theWhiteLady

Check your PM's. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 06:15 AM

Maybe it's too late for this and maybe not, but I thought I'd ask...

How about (still harping on the canonicity thing, call me obsessive, probably true...) (All readers: prepare volley of Rotten Tomatoes...)

How about if Frodo and Bilbo came to the Shire as supposed strangers, using "travelling names"? All their close friends, and the Star Party, would obviously be in the know; we could add a line or two to the Party Invitations with a caution to those In The Know; the party would be largely unchanged, except for a brief announcement at them beginning of the party ("Remember, please, all of you, after this party, the name of Baggins is NOT to be mentioned; we are the Underhills, if any name must be given..." How about Frodo goes by Bingo Underhill in public?

That leaves room for further intrigue, Loads of gossip, and Bilbo and Frodo will have no authority with anybody but their close friends, and so can get into lots of trouble.

Bill Ferny can either figure it out or his spies can find out.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 07:03 AM

Helen,

Scratches head in puzzlement. I think you'd better help me out here. I don't understand how having the returning duo under assumed names affects the canonicity of the piece. Is it just that you don't want the neighbors knowing it is them?

Bilbo was always known for doing such strange things, e.g., suddenly disappearing in the middle of a party before everyone's eyes, that I doubt the hobbits would have been totally shocked to see him running around the Shire again. They thought of him as doing strange things and, if he did one more, that would just be in character.

More importantly, as readers, we know what it means that Bilbo and Frodo went West. We have a fairly good understanding of what that place is like and also why they went there. In other words, we understand all the background information. Would most hobbits in the Shire have understood all this? Absolutely not. Most hobbits didn't have even the vagust notion about who Eru was or even the Valar. Their minds were on things much closer to home.

Our own characters are the exceptions---the ones whom Tolkien describes in his Letters as being exceptionally gifted. The ones who were curious and understood things that others did not.

I'm also truly curious why you find these points especially disturbing. There are other things in the Star saga which also stand far beyond canon, if we want to interpret canon literally. For example, the presence of an Elf in the clear light of day within the Shire itself. Even more strange is the idea that stands at the crux of the story---the assumption that there were hobbits floating around in the First and Second Age. Another example, the idea of using a device to do Time Travel. In the Notion Club Papers Tolkien says that using a machine to do time travel is not possible, the people would be killed. He states that dream is the only appropriate vehicle.

What about the thing we're considering doing at the end of the story.....? You could well argue that it's way beyond Tolkien. But, as I've argued before, we could also say that keeping a couple madly in love apart is actually a more basic desecration of Tolkien. JRRT was willing
to move mountains, and break most of his rules, to allow lovers to remain together. Beren and Luthien are the most extreme example of this.

All those examples that I've cited stand far from Tolkien, if we want to interpret things in a literal sense. Do these things bother me? Not at all. I've always seen the Star and her mini-cousin in the Shire as being Tolkien in spirit but not in detail. Might it be fun to do an RPG someday which clings closer to Tolkien in its details. Perhaps, but this one isn't it.

What would bother me is this.......if someone took a character and had him/her do things that were totally out of keeping with that particular person. It doesn't bother me that Frodo's returned briefly from the West. It would bother me if he was to have a torrid love affair with another hobbit or Elf. (And I've certainly seen that done before!)

Perhaps, it would help if you'd explain why this particular scenario is really bothering you, while the other ones I cited above were less of a problem. I just don't get it. I'm having problems.

Your puzzled time traveller friend,

Cami Goodchild

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 07:27 AM

Okay, fair question!

What totally steams me is not when we fill in a blank with something wild and creative. I think of the time crystal sort of like the mechanical dragons, I guess; Tolkien might shudder a bit, but I don't think he'd go ballistic.

But having Frodo and Bilbo come back when it's expressly stated that they went west and Didn't come back, puts us in the position of negating the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch. That bugs me. No, it drives me crazy. Everybody concerned made that book as accurate as possible, recording everything as faithfully as they could. If Bilbo and Frodo had come back, they would have said so. If Bilbo was buried in the Shire, they would have said so.

UNLESS it was for some reason a dead secret. Then they would have left it unsaid. So-- how can we make their return a dead secret?

Secrets exist, stuff is left out of history books because it's classified in nature. I'm fine with that. But I'm NOT fine with Sam and all the rest of the historians failing to mention that oh, yeah, Frodo did come back for a couple of months, once, and everybody knew it and we had a great time, but it's not important information, so we'll leave it out because nobody would be interested. They put details into that book like Elanor serving as Arwen's handmaiden; why would they leave out the Ringbearer's return? Unless, as I have said, it was supposed to be a secret.

(Or, I would have been happy with, "Sam woke up and looked for Frodo, and he was terribly disappointed to realize it had all been just a dream." But we all disagree on that, so, okay.)

So-- how about making it a secret? This is the excuse I used for Noldo's marriage to Lorien. Someplace, Tolkien says that there were only ever three elf-human unions: Arwen, Idril, Luthien. I didn't feel right saying "Noldo's a hobbit so he doesn't count." No, he does count. But what worked (for me) was that their underage marriage was such a shocking disgrace that it was hushed up especially from the rest of the elves, and so therefore didn't make it into the history books. So the historians can still (honestly) state that there were only ever three human/elf unions-- that's all they KNOW about.

Am I making sense yet?

The time crystal-- same thing. Everything that the Lonely Star did, was all a "super-classified mission", top-secret, and so of course didn't make it into the history books. Same with Maura's relocation-- classified info. That's why that whole epilog thing, him being a mystery to most of the rest of the Anduin group, is important to me, I guess.

Mith did a good job blending the rescue of the numenoreans out of the temple-- he made everything secret, putting the descendants under oath. Again, it didn't go into the history books. We didn't contradict the history books-- we wrote events that were intentionally left out of them for reasons of (national) security.

Same with the Hobbits relocations, and imprisonments, etc; not in the history books because it was a matter of (future) national security. Secret mission; doesn't contradict the historians; we can just wink and say, "How could they have known?" And "Those who did know, couldn't or wouldn't tell."

Now am I making sense?...

ps. "an elf in the clear light of day in the Shire"... well, yeah, it's wierd. But you started all this by saying, "It's a dream"! You bamboozled me!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Kidding. Okay, I'm not kidding, but anyway, not important.) No, there are places in the LOTR that talk about elves coming through the Shire, so that doesn't bug me, and you did say that The Green Dragon is a Lorien/ Bombadil/Rivendell-ish place for the purposes of this story. Does it bug me? I guess a little, if I think hard about it-- but not NEARLY as much as, "Oh, the Ringbearer came back and everybody knew but we didn't bother to add that to the Red Book." The one is creative license, the other is, well... dare I say heresy?

(all concerned reach for rotten tomatoes... Fire!)

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 07:35 AM

...and I realize I am being a total stick-in-the-mud, and so I'm trying to come up with a simple, quick, and dirty solution, and the aliases seem easy to me, and simple and quick. And fairly "right".

(still ducking tomatoes)

Birdland · 03-14-2003, 07:51 AM

Helen - I have to side with Sharon as far as backing up and changing the story at this late date, and I have no objection to the main premise of the story. After all, none of us could claim that any of our RPGs are mere "canon fodder".

My only concern was the lack of reaction from the general Shire population. Men, First Age halflings, and the return of the "mad Baggines" should have stirred up an ant's nest of speculation, gossip, rumors, innuendos, hostility, and...well...conflict.

A dragon showing up in the Shire in the Fourth Age would be considered horribly "non-canon", but would make an interesting, fun story. A dragon showing up in the Shire and nobody reacting to it at all, though? Well, that just seems odd.

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 08:07 AM

Bird, I understand your points, but there is (for me) a deeper issue here, and that is that I'm playing Frodo. It's one thing to play non-canonical characters-- Gamba, Lindo, etc-- I can go wild and have fun and do what I want. But not with Frodo; he's a balancing act, a study, and something I'm determined to do well, or not at all. I feel simlilarly about Sam, and Pippin. I've written a novel with them, after all, and it was a painstaking effort, trying to blend everything I did in with existing historical events, and not go outside what TOlkien has already written as far as those characters go.

Now, that doesn't mean I didn't have creative fun with the OTHER characters in my story-- boy, did I. They did things that few hobbits EVER would. But NOT Frodo, Sam, Pippin. They were tied and woven into Tolkien's history to the very best of my ability.

And that's what I'm trying to do now; everything in me is screaming, Tie it in faithfully, to the best of your ability, in a way that The Professor would approve of and that your conscience can handle. And if I can't do that-- well, that's an issue for me, and a monstrous one. Talk about losing sleep. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Giving them travelling names seems to me like the simplest way out. It's slightly hokey, but I can deal with it.

Let me put it this way-- a dragon in the fourth age Shire? Okay. You're right-- that's lots of fun. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] But-- it beter not be Smaug, Ancalagon, or Glaurung, because they're dead. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Tolkien said so. Soooo--- make your own dragon, get him from somewhere else, and bring him in to wreak havoc-- fine. But the dragons whose destiny has already been settled? Let them rest in peace.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 08:25 AM

Helen,

I was not trying to bamboozle anyone. I just don't see it the same critical way that you do. In fact, I don't see how it's any different than inventing 5,000 years of hobbit history. There is no way you could keep an entire people hidden for 5,000 years. Surely someone would have noticed them in all that time, the descendents of the guards of Numenor, for example. If I was a Man, and had been put in charge of hobbit prisoners, I certainly would tell everyone I knew about these strange creatures!

Moreover, to be truthful, I once read an interview where Tolkien said it was impossible to have hobbits in an earlier age, because they were totally the product of the Shire. Personally, for me, it is more impossible to imagine that a people could have evolved a culture, physical characteristics, etc. in just 2,000 years, since the year 1050 T.A. is the first hint in Tolkien of hobbits.

Having said this, isn't there an easier way we can get around your objections? I really don't like tampering with the earlier parts of the story. It's like putting fig leaves on statues.

I don't have a problem saying that Frodo and Bilbo came in dream time, instead of real time. This is not uneasonable in that they arrived the same way as the other dream travellers. We have a Vala with us who is in charge of dreams and visions. This type of power inherently implies the ability to cast illusions.

Why can't we simply have an ending post where Lorien does his thing as a Vala and gently places a misty curtain over the minds of the Shirelings so that the whole sequence of events in the story fades away, becoming very distant and vague? Like a pleasant but half-remembered dream. This would only involve those folk living in the Shire. Frankly, the only person who would absolutely need to forget is Sam, since he's writing the later history. With anyone else, it's simply a matter of rumor. But, to be safe, Lorien could deal with the Shire as a hole.

Pio, and Mith, and Bird would not be affected in any way. If you prefer, you could evn have the same veil descend on the minds of the dream travellers....although Cami and Maura would be exempt. I won't budge on that! Plus, I would think that Frodo and Bilbo would have a special status in this regard, since they are returning to the West and points beyond.

Just think of it as the ending of Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. A temporary sweet madness has seized the Shirelings' minds, but it will soon depart.

Helen, could you live with this? It has the advantage of not requiring earlier revisions. Does anyone else have any serious concerns regarding the structure of the story, or the suggested solution I've proposed?

sharon

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 08:39 AM

Sharon,

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, I didn't mean to and I should have put a smilie after "bamboozle" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The mist-thing would be okay.

I logged on to propose that I spend tomorrow morning canvassing the thread and analyzing the changes that would be necessary to accomodate the aliases, and submitting a proposal for the changes to this thread to be judged by all concerned. Honestly, I think I can do it by very minor edits to less than ten posts. Maybe even around five.
(We did that sort of thing on the Star more than once, didn't we?)

But if that gives everybody the willies, then the settling mist will do.

I love ya, Sharon. I know you know that. It's just that I'm already losing sleep over this, and I need to resolve it somehow. Don't take it personally. I'm in the story because I love it, and I love you guys.

(This is bugging me so much, I actually considered proposing going back through and deleting Frodo altogether-- if Bilbo came alone, it would make everything work, I think; he's quieter, and it would look more like a wild rumor, etc etc. At least it would clear my conscience, since I'm not writing Bilbo, except as he interacts with Frodo. But-- I figured you would go through the roof if I even menioned deleting Frodo from the story, and there's all of Orual's hard work that would be affected, and so I dropped that idea.)

But... the mist thing would work too.

No hard feelings, Sharon?

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 09:36 AM

Helen,

I know this is not personal. No offense taken. But I see serious problems in what you are suggesting.

In my mind, an rpg is a seemless web. Even if people edited the ten posts, you'd still have the ripple effect. You pull one thread in an rpg and others go out of line. When you make "ten minor edits" in posts that amount to a total change in the profile for two characters (Frodo and Bilbo), you potentially affect all the other people who play off of you.

This is not an academic question for me, since I play Bilbo. This whole suggested revision affects Bilbo as much as Frodo. In my mind, I would need to do massive reconstruction of my character, going all the way back to the beginning posts in Tol Eressea. Let me cite an example. If Bilbo had come to the Shire under some vow of secrecy, he would never have driven a pony cart to see Amaranthas in broad daylight, nor would he be setting up a party in Bag-end. If fact, it is highly unlikely that he'd be sitting out in front of the Inn smoking a pipe. Bilbo is a shrewd hobbit. He would obviously be inside taking cover. This concept of an alias would change every single action that my character has taken in the entire RPG. His whole mindset, the way he was thinking would be totally different. If I make the required changes, the entire story will be gutted.

I still don't understand how an alias would help. I understand how Frodo could use an alias in Bree where no one knew him. But almost all of the inhabitants of Hobbiton know Frodo and Bilbo by sight. They would simply recognize them. The fact they were trying to come back "incognito" would rouse more suspicion rather than less. You would have to have Lorien change the physical appearance of the hobbits as well in order to hide them. Otherwise an alias is not believable.

I have no problem with Lorien's mist of curtain, but don't know how others feel about that. Nor do I have a problem with Bird's suggestion that there be more response in the Shire to Bilbo and Frodo's arrival. I think that would be very realistic, and wish someone would take her up on that.

BTW, I will not be on the computer a lot over the weekend. We are at home but have an extraordinary number of commitments that will keep me from posting. If possible, can this be hammered out today?

sharon

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 09:55 AM

Sharon,

I didn't think they'd be so recognizeable-- except to their close friends-- because for one thing, they're supposed to be gone. Look how long it took people to recognize the returning war heroes, and Bilbo after the quest of Erebor.

And for another, they **have** been gone-- Frodo for twelve years. Bilbo has been gone for-- (math, math, math...) thirty-plus years. AND he's aged hugely since anybody in the Shire has seen him. Remember he looked fifty years old when he left the Shire at age eleventy-one, because he was carrying the Ring til that point, and now he looks 130-- or, actually, 140.

50 yrs to 130/140 yrs is a big, big change. And nobody is expecting Bilbo anymore; why would they recognize him? I think he could traipse around calling himself "Gaffer Underhill" with complete impugnity, and his friends in the know would have fun playing along. Amaranthus would eat it up. Gaffer Underhill could smoke in public anywhere he pleased and go wherever he wished.

"Visiting Gaffer Underhill" is very believeable for me. And Frodo could have found a way to blend in, of that I feel certain.

But-- Okay. As I've said in this thread once before....

"Uncle."

I can go with Lorien's mist if that's what you want.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

piosenniel · 03-14-2003, 11:03 AM

Sharon

Please check your PM's

Birdland · 03-14-2003, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Cami takes a punch from the shirriff for her son

A large crowd gathers

The neighborhood goes ballistic when they realize Frodo and Bilbo have returned

NOW WE'RE TALKIN'!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 12:51 PM

Pio,

Please see your pms. I am working on that post now. It is up to you if you want to have him take another swing.

Please see my caution about Mith.

Helen,

Yes, that sounds good. I am all for misty curtains. Now, don't panic but the entire town is about to see Frodo.

Just keep repeating to yourself. This is a dream....it will all go away! Think of it like a PJ fanfic.

sharon

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Think of it like a PJ fanfic.

"PJ" ??

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 01:59 PM

Pio,

My revised post is up. As of this minute, no one is going to jail, but the entire region is up in arms about the return of Frodo and Bilbo.

If you'd prefer to have some jailbirds, I can probably add something on to suggest that Gamba still is not happy. Or you could edit yourself. I don't mind.

Helen,

Grins. PJ = Peter Jackson. Actually, I did enjoy the movie, but not as much as the first one.

sharon

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 02:13 PM

Pio,

Check your pms.

I'll be glad to edit the Maura part if the other will work better. I do want to keep the part about the hobbits getting all upset, and Bilbo coming forward to help Cami.

Shall I edit? Then you can look at it.

sharon

piosenniel · 03-14-2003, 02:15 PM

I'm leaving it up to another writer to pick up the ball as far as the Shiriff and what he is going to do about the complaint made by Olo. It would probably be preferable if no one got locked up.

ArwenBaggins · 03-14-2003, 02:48 PM

Sorry Guys, I'll be gone all weekend on an archery trip.

Could someone take over Elanor until I get back? I'd appreciate it.

Much Obliged,
Fëa (Elanor)

***Mithadan*** · 03-14-2003, 03:23 PM

Pio: Done.

Helen and Child, I definitely am not in favor of a rewrite along the lines contemplated. I also don't favor the mist of forgetfulness idea. I think its not necessary.

My view is that the Shire is a sleepy
place where things are quickly forgotten. Its a place where books and records of history are rare and an oral tradition is maintained. Within a matter of years this whole debacle will be recalled in folkloric terms as another "Mad Baggins" episode. After a generation or so it will be forgotten.

Knowing the importance of secrecy with regard to the Hobbits of Tol Fuin, the Hobbrim and the journey of The Star in
general, Frodo knows that the only way these events could be remembered is if they end up in the Red Book. Perhaps Sam mentions that Elessar has requested a copy. So Frodo asks Sam not to mention these events in his writings. Sam would surely agree and pass the request on to Elanor. This is in keeping with Helen's "State Secret" approach and I prefer it to the Mist of Forgetfulness. How does that sound?

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 03:36 PM

Mith,

I think this is a good idea. It explicitly addresses the question of written history, which is what Helen mentioned as a main concern in her earlier post.

I could easily let my mist of forgetfulness drift away.

Helen, what do you think of this alternative?

sharon

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 04:06 PM

Mith, I think it's a good idea, and I think it does 80 to 90 percent of the job. All I think it needs is the element of doubt and debate, which I think could be easily added in.

I think we could easily do that with some strategically placed comments like, "Oh, they may LOOK like Bilbo and Frodo, but that's silly, those two have been gone for years and years." The Shire can argue about it over pipes and mugs of beer, and Frodo can dissemble casually : "Oh, yes, I've heard I bear quite a strong resemblance to him. Isn't it fascinating? Right down to the missing finger. Isn't that odd, now. Perhaps I should take advantage of the notoriety, it might be worth a few free beers."

Even in the most recent post, it's easy. Bilbo can just smile and laugh, and answer, "So people seem to think. The resemblance must be rather striking." Everybody around him can walk away arguing. We still get mayhem out of the deal.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

mark12_30 · 03-14-2003, 06:42 PM

...round and round again... From the LOTR Prologue, p. 13 & 14 (in the Omnibus), Note on the Shire Records:

Quote:

At the end of the Third Age the part played by the Hobbits in the great events that led to the incusion of the Shire in the Reunited Kingdom awakened among them a more widespread interest in their own history; and many of their traditions, up to that time still mainly oral, were collected and written down. The greater families were also concerned with events in the Kingdom at lasrge, and many of their members studied its ancient histories and legends. By the end of the First Century of the Fourth Age there were already to be found in the Shire several libraries that contained many historical books and records.

The largest of these collections were probably at Undertowers, at Great Smials, and at Brandy Hall. ... The most important copy (of the Red Book) was kept at Great Smials... the Thain's Book was thus the first copy made of the Red Book and contained mych that was later omitted or lost... In Minas Tirith it recieved much annotation...
...
Since Meriadoc and Peregrin became the heads of their great families, and a the same time kept up their connexions with Rohan and Gondor, the libraries at Bucklebury and Tuckborough contained much that did not appear in the Red Book.

So... if we take Mithadan's approach, then not only do Sam and Elanor have to be instructed that Frodo & Bilbo's visit not be recorded; but also, all of the Tooks that might write something down, and also, all of the Brandybucks, that might someday write something down.

That's a lot of potential historians that have to be quieted down.

Numenor was easy-- a big wave took care of most of the problem, and the surviving ship was under Mithadan's oath.

Beleriand-- all the eyewitnesses there drowned too.

This is different.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

mark12_30 · 03-15-2003, 01:54 AM

However--

Having just consulted with a close and trusty friend, as to whether I have gone overboard in zealousness-- it appears I have-- I'll drop the issue.

So once again-- nevermind, and, "Uncle". Resolve, or not, as you all choose, and I'll write Frodo as best I can. I apologize (especially to you, Sharon) for headaches/heartaches I've caused.

So: "Nevermind, Uncle."

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

ps. I'll leapfrog the hobbits' bedtime post til an appropriate spot, since Pio isn't done with dinner. Sorry about that.

[ March 15, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

mark12_30 · 03-15-2003, 02:39 AM

Whitelady Rose, what a beautiful post! And wild! A hobbit-lass riding a stallion into battle against orcs! that was great!

theWhiteLady · 03-15-2003, 09:32 AM

Thank you so much, Helen! *bows and blushes profusely*

Gandalf the Gray: Greetings! I am delighted to see Rose shall accompany you on to the Green Dragon! I look very much forward to the trip [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Birdland · 03-15-2003, 09:35 AM

I've filled in my "save" from page 5, March 14, 2003 09:03 AM.

03-13-2003, 09:49 AM	#361
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,310	If Gamba, et al. were supposed to escape, please advise and I will delete or modify my post. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-13-2003, 10:54 AM	#362
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Mith & Bird, that was good. Child, I'll modify what I sent you, and send it again. [ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-13-2003, 01:27 PM	#363
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Great posts with the arrival of the children! It seems we are in for a time of confusion. Bird was definitely right. I filled in my earlier post of 3/13 at 1:11 a.m. using that same theme. Maura is stunned that Pio is alive and in the Shire. The last he heard she had croaked in Gondolin! Pio, I'm not sure if I got your response right in this scene. Look at what I said, and if you feel you'd prefer something different, go ahead and edit. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-13-2003, 01:37 PM	#364
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	The response is fine. WhiteLady - Hello, Rose! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Please see my latest PM to you. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-13-2003, 01:50 PM	#365
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Pio, Great minds think alike! I had just sent you a note about this and also one to White Lady. I assume you two will straighten this out. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-13-2003, 02:57 PM	#366
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,310	If Auntie Bird wants fuss and mayhem, Auntie Bird gets fuss and mayhem.... __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-13-2003, 03:03 PM	#367
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Mith, you may bring Gamba in to Pio for an apology at your haste or liesure, if she doesn't ride away on 'Falmar first. He won't want to go inside the nasty building. [ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-13-2003, 03:06 PM	#368
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	Pio has left the building . . . and the West Farthing, too, for that matter . . . __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-13-2003, 03:10 PM	#369
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	I can't imagine why. Oversensitive. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-13-2003, 06:29 PM	#370
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Does anybody have a plan for finding Ban and Zira? Lindo knows them and could find them (or at least contact them and get a description of there location) with osanwe. That is, unless he was seriously distracted by something else. Bird's presence, or her distress, perhaps? Lindo would also like to see Pio, if she ever comes back. [ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-13-2003, 08:12 PM	#371
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Helen, Bird and I set up the Zira, Abar thing early this morning by e-mail. She promised to post and resolve the situation when she returned from work. Remember the first night in Gondolin when Abar fed morsels to the black bird while his family ate? Also remember how Bird attacked Lindo that night when he was out walking and talking with Maura? sharon [ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-13-2003, 08:14 PM	#372
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	Gandalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Please check your PM's. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-14-2003, 03:24 AM	#374
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	theWhiteLady Check your PM's. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-14-2003, 06:15 AM	#375
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Maybe it's too late for this and maybe not, but I thought I'd ask... How about (still harping on the canonicity thing, call me obsessive, probably true...) (All readers: prepare volley of Rotten Tomatoes...) How about if Frodo and Bilbo came to the Shire as supposed strangers, using "travelling names"? All their close friends, and the Star Party, would obviously be in the know; we could add a line or two to the Party Invitations with a caution to those In The Know; the party would be largely unchanged, except for a brief announcement at them beginning of the party ("Remember, please, all of you, after this party, the name of Baggins is NOT to be mentioned; we are the Underhills, if any name must be given..." How about Frodo goes by Bingo Underhill in public? That leaves room for further intrigue, Loads of gossip, and Bilbo and Frodo will have no authority with anybody but their close friends, and so can get into lots of trouble. Bill Ferny can either figure it out or his spies can find out. [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-14-2003, 07:03 AM	#376
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Helen, Scratches head in puzzlement. I think you'd better help me out here. I don't understand how having the returning duo under assumed names affects the canonicity of the piece. Is it just that you don't want the neighbors knowing it is them? Bilbo was always known for doing such strange things, e.g., suddenly disappearing in the middle of a party before everyone's eyes, that I doubt the hobbits would have been totally shocked to see him running around the Shire again. They thought of him as doing strange things and, if he did one more, that would just be in character. More importantly, as readers, we know what it means that Bilbo and Frodo went West. We have a fairly good understanding of what that place is like and also why they went there. In other words, we understand all the background information. Would most hobbits in the Shire have understood all this? Absolutely not. Most hobbits didn't have even the vagust notion about who Eru was or even the Valar. Their minds were on things much closer to home. Our own characters are the exceptions---the ones whom Tolkien describes in his Letters as being exceptionally gifted. The ones who were curious and understood things that others did not. I'm also truly curious why you find these points especially disturbing. There are other things in the Star saga which also stand far beyond canon, if we want to interpret canon literally. For example, the presence of an Elf in the clear light of day within the Shire itself. Even more strange is the idea that stands at the crux of the story---the assumption that there were hobbits floating around in the First and Second Age. Another example, the idea of using a device to do Time Travel. In the Notion Club Papers Tolkien says that using a machine to do time travel is not possible, the people would be killed. He states that dream is the only appropriate vehicle. What about the thing we're considering doing at the end of the story.....? You could well argue that it's way beyond Tolkien. But, as I've argued before, we could also say that keeping a couple madly in love apart is actually a more basic desecration of Tolkien. JRRT was willing to move mountains, and break most of his rules, to allow lovers to remain together. Beren and Luthien are the most extreme example of this. All those examples that I've cited stand far from Tolkien, if we want to interpret things in a literal sense. Do these things bother me? Not at all. I've always seen the Star and her mini-cousin in the Shire as being Tolkien in spirit but not in detail. Might it be fun to do an RPG someday which clings closer to Tolkien in its details. Perhaps, but this one isn't it. What would bother me is this.......if someone took a character and had him/her do things that were totally out of keeping with that particular person. It doesn't bother me that Frodo's returned briefly from the West. It would bother me if he was to have a torrid love affair with another hobbit or Elf. (And I've certainly seen that done before!) Perhaps, it would help if you'd explain why this particular scenario is really bothering you, while the other ones I cited above were less of a problem. I just don't get it. I'm having problems. Your puzzled time traveller friend, Cami Goodchild __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 07:27 AM	#377
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Okay, fair question! What totally steams me is not when we fill in a blank with something wild and creative. I think of the time crystal sort of like the mechanical dragons, I guess; Tolkien might shudder a bit, but I don't think he'd go ballistic. But having Frodo and Bilbo come back when it's expressly stated that they went west and Didn't come back, puts us in the position of negating the contents of the Red Book of Westmarch. That bugs me. No, it drives me crazy. Everybody concerned made that book as accurate as possible, recording everything as faithfully as they could. If Bilbo and Frodo had come back, they would have said so. If Bilbo was buried in the Shire, they would have said so. UNLESS it was for some reason a dead secret. Then they would have left it unsaid. So-- how can we make their return a dead secret? Secrets exist, stuff is left out of history books because it's classified in nature. I'm fine with that. But I'm NOT fine with Sam and all the rest of the historians failing to mention that oh, yeah, Frodo did come back for a couple of months, once, and everybody knew it and we had a great time, but it's not important information, so we'll leave it out because nobody would be interested. They put details into that book like Elanor serving as Arwen's handmaiden; why would they leave out the Ringbearer's return? Unless, as I have said, it was supposed to be a secret. (Or, I would have been happy with, "Sam woke up and looked for Frodo, and he was terribly disappointed to realize it had all been just a dream." But we all disagree on that, so, okay.) So-- how about making it a secret? This is the excuse I used for Noldo's marriage to Lorien. Someplace, Tolkien says that there were only ever three elf-human unions: Arwen, Idril, Luthien. I didn't feel right saying "Noldo's a hobbit so he doesn't count." No, he does count. But what worked (for me) was that their underage marriage was such a shocking disgrace that it was hushed up especially from the rest of the elves, and so therefore didn't make it into the history books. So the historians can still (honestly) state that there were only ever three human/elf unions-- that's all they KNOW about. Am I making sense yet? The time crystal-- same thing. Everything that the Lonely Star did, was all a "super-classified mission", top-secret, and so of course didn't make it into the history books. Same with Maura's relocation-- classified info. That's why that whole epilog thing, him being a mystery to most of the rest of the Anduin group, is important to me, I guess. Mith did a good job blending the rescue of the numenoreans out of the temple-- he made everything secret, putting the descendants under oath. Again, it didn't go into the history books. We didn't contradict the history books-- we wrote events that were intentionally left out of them for reasons of (national) security. Same with the Hobbits relocations, and imprisonments, etc; not in the history books because it was a matter of (future) national security. Secret mission; doesn't contradict the historians; we can just wink and say, "How could they have known?" And "Those who did know, couldn't or wouldn't tell." Now am I making sense?... ps. "an elf in the clear light of day in the Shire"... well, yeah, it's wierd. But you started all this by saying, "It's a dream"! You bamboozled me!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Kidding. Okay, I'm not kidding, but anyway, not important.) No, there are places in the LOTR that talk about elves coming through the Shire, so that doesn't bug me, and you did say that The Green Dragon is a Lorien/ Bombadil/Rivendell-ish place for the purposes of this story. Does it bug me? I guess a little, if I think hard about it-- but not NEARLY as much as, "Oh, the Ringbearer came back and everybody knew but we didn't bother to add that to the Red Book." The one is creative license, the other is, well... dare I say heresy? (all concerned reach for rotten tomatoes... Fire!) [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-14-2003, 07:35 AM	#378
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	...and I realize I am being a total stick-in-the-mud, and so I'm trying to come up with a simple, quick, and dirty solution, and the aliases seem easy to me, and simple and quick. And fairly "right". (still ducking tomatoes) __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-14-2003, 07:51 AM	#379
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Helen - I have to side with Sharon as far as backing up and changing the story at this late date, and I have no objection to the main premise of the story. After all, none of us could claim that any of our RPGs are mere "canon fodder". My only concern was the lack of reaction from the general Shire population. Men, First Age halflings, and the return of the "mad Baggines" should have stirred up an ant's nest of speculation, gossip, rumors, innuendos, hostility, and...well...conflict. A dragon showing up in the Shire in the Fourth Age would be considered horribly "non-canon", but would make an interesting, fun story. A dragon showing up in the Shire and nobody reacting to it at all, though? Well, that just seems odd.

03-14-2003, 08:07 AM	#380
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Bird, I understand your points, but there is (for me) a deeper issue here, and that is that I'm playing Frodo. It's one thing to play non-canonical characters-- Gamba, Lindo, etc-- I can go wild and have fun and do what I want. But not with Frodo; he's a balancing act, a study, and something I'm determined to do well, or not at all. I feel simlilarly about Sam, and Pippin. I've written a novel with them, after all, and it was a painstaking effort, trying to blend everything I did in with existing historical events, and not go outside what TOlkien has already written as far as those characters go. Now, that doesn't mean I didn't have creative fun with the OTHER characters in my story-- boy, did I. They did things that few hobbits EVER would. But NOT Frodo, Sam, Pippin. They were tied and woven into Tolkien's history to the very best of my ability. And that's what I'm trying to do now; everything in me is screaming, Tie it in faithfully, to the best of your ability, in a way that The Professor would approve of and that your conscience can handle. And if I can't do that-- well, that's an issue for me, and a monstrous one. Talk about losing sleep. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Giving them travelling names seems to me like the simplest way out. It's slightly hokey, but I can deal with it. Let me put it this way-- a dragon in the fourth age Shire? Okay. You're right-- that's lots of fun. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] But-- it beter not be Smaug, Ancalagon, or Glaurung, because they're dead. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Tolkien said so. Soooo--- make your own dragon, get him from somewhere else, and bring him in to wreak havoc-- fine. But the dragons whose destiny has already been settled? Let them rest in peace. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-14-2003, 08:25 AM	#381
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Helen, I was not trying to bamboozle anyone. I just don't see it the same critical way that you do. In fact, I don't see how it's any different than inventing 5,000 years of hobbit history. There is no way you could keep an entire people hidden for 5,000 years. Surely someone would have noticed them in all that time, the descendents of the guards of Numenor, for example. If I was a Man, and had been put in charge of hobbit prisoners, I certainly would tell everyone I knew about these strange creatures! Moreover, to be truthful, I once read an interview where Tolkien said it was impossible to have hobbits in an earlier age, because they were totally the product of the Shire. Personally, for me, it is more impossible to imagine that a people could have evolved a culture, physical characteristics, etc. in just 2,000 years, since the year 1050 T.A. is the first hint in Tolkien of hobbits. Having said this, isn't there an easier way we can get around your objections? I really don't like tampering with the earlier parts of the story. It's like putting fig leaves on statues. I don't have a problem saying that Frodo and Bilbo came in dream time, instead of real time. This is not uneasonable in that they arrived the same way as the other dream travellers. We have a Vala with us who is in charge of dreams and visions. This type of power inherently implies the ability to cast illusions. Why can't we simply have an ending post where Lorien does his thing as a Vala and gently places a misty curtain over the minds of the Shirelings so that the whole sequence of events in the story fades away, becoming very distant and vague? Like a pleasant but half-remembered dream. This would only involve those folk living in the Shire. Frankly, the only person who would absolutely need to forget is Sam, since he's writing the later history. With anyone else, it's simply a matter of rumor. But, to be safe, Lorien could deal with the Shire as a hole. Pio, and Mith, and Bird would not be affected in any way. If you prefer, you could evn have the same veil descend on the minds of the dream travellers....although Cami and Maura would be exempt. I won't budge on that! Plus, I would think that Frodo and Bilbo would have a special status in this regard, since they are returning to the West and points beyond. Just think of it as the ending of Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. A temporary sweet madness has seized the Shirelings' minds, but it will soon depart. Helen, could you live with this? It has the advantage of not requiring earlier revisions. Does anyone else have any serious concerns regarding the structure of the story, or the suggested solution I've proposed? sharon [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 08:39 AM	#382
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Sharon, I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, I didn't mean to and I should have put a smilie after "bamboozle" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The mist-thing would be okay. I logged on to propose that I spend tomorrow morning canvassing the thread and analyzing the changes that would be necessary to accomodate the aliases, and submitting a proposal for the changes to this thread to be judged by all concerned. Honestly, I think I can do it by very minor edits to less than ten posts. Maybe even around five. (We did that sort of thing on the Star more than once, didn't we?) But if that gives everybody the willies, then the settling mist will do. I love ya, Sharon. I know you know that. It's just that I'm already losing sleep over this, and I need to resolve it somehow. Don't take it personally. I'm in the story because I love it, and I love you guys. (This is bugging me so much, I actually considered proposing going back through and deleting Frodo altogether-- if Bilbo came alone, it would make everything work, I think; he's quieter, and it would look more like a wild rumor, etc etc. At least it would clear my conscience, since I'm not writing Bilbo, except as he interacts with Frodo. But-- I figured you would go through the roof if I even menioned deleting Frodo from the story, and there's all of Orual's hard work that would be affected, and so I dropped that idea.) But... the mist thing would work too. No hard feelings, Sharon? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-14-2003, 09:36 AM	#383
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Helen, I know this is not personal. No offense taken. But I see serious problems in what you are suggesting. In my mind, an rpg is a seemless web. Even if people edited the ten posts, you'd still have the ripple effect. You pull one thread in an rpg and others go out of line. When you make "ten minor edits" in posts that amount to a total change in the profile for two characters (Frodo and Bilbo), you potentially affect all the other people who play off of you. This is not an academic question for me, since I play Bilbo. This whole suggested revision affects Bilbo as much as Frodo. In my mind, I would need to do massive reconstruction of my character, going all the way back to the beginning posts in Tol Eressea. Let me cite an example. If Bilbo had come to the Shire under some vow of secrecy, he would never have driven a pony cart to see Amaranthas in broad daylight, nor would he be setting up a party in Bag-end. If fact, it is highly unlikely that he'd be sitting out in front of the Inn smoking a pipe. Bilbo is a shrewd hobbit. He would obviously be inside taking cover. This concept of an alias would change every single action that my character has taken in the entire RPG. His whole mindset, the way he was thinking would be totally different. If I make the required changes, the entire story will be gutted. I still don't understand how an alias would help. I understand how Frodo could use an alias in Bree where no one knew him. But almost all of the inhabitants of Hobbiton know Frodo and Bilbo by sight. They would simply recognize them. The fact they were trying to come back "incognito" would rouse more suspicion rather than less. You would have to have Lorien change the physical appearance of the hobbits as well in order to hide them. Otherwise an alias is not believable. I have no problem with Lorien's mist of curtain, but don't know how others feel about that. Nor do I have a problem with Bird's suggestion that there be more response in the Shire to Bilbo and Frodo's arrival. I think that would be very realistic, and wish someone would take her up on that. BTW, I will not be on the computer a lot over the weekend. We are at home but have an extraordinary number of commitments that will keep me from posting. If possible, can this be hammered out today? sharon [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 09:55 AM	#384
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Sharon, I didn't think they'd be so recognizeable-- except to their close friends-- because for one thing, they're supposed to be gone. Look how long it took people to recognize the returning war heroes, and Bilbo after the quest of Erebor. And for another, they have been gone-- Frodo for twelve years. Bilbo has been gone for-- (math, math, math...) thirty-plus years. AND he's aged hugely since anybody in the Shire has seen him. Remember he looked fifty years old when he left the Shire at age eleventy-one, because he was carrying the Ring til that point, and now he looks 130-- or, actually, 140. 50 yrs to 130/140 yrs is a big, big change. And nobody is expecting Bilbo anymore; why would they recognize him? I think he could traipse around calling himself "Gaffer Underhill" with complete impugnity, and his friends in the know would have fun playing along. Amaranthus would eat it up. Gaffer Underhill could smoke in public anywhere he pleased and go wherever he wished. "Visiting Gaffer Underhill" is very believeable for me. And Frodo could have found a way to blend in, of that I feel certain. But-- Okay. As I've said in this thread once before.... "Uncle." I can go with Lorien's mist if that's what you want. [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-14-2003, 11:03 AM	#385
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	Sharon Please check your PM's __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-14-2003, 12:51 PM	#387
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Pio, Please see your pms. I am working on that post now. It is up to you if you want to have him take another swing. Please see my caution about Mith. Helen, Yes, that sounds good. I am all for misty curtains. Now, don't panic but the entire town is about to see Frodo. Just keep repeating to yourself. This is a dream....it will all go away! Think of it like a PJ fanfic. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 01:59 PM	#389
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Pio, My revised post is up. As of this minute, no one is going to jail, but the entire region is up in arms about the return of Frodo and Bilbo. If you'd prefer to have some jailbirds, I can probably add something on to suggest that Gamba still is not happy. Or you could edit yourself. I don't mind. Helen, Grins. PJ = Peter Jackson. Actually, I did enjoy the movie, but not as much as the first one. sharon [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 02:13 PM	#390
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Pio, Check your pms. I'll be glad to edit the Maura part if the other will work better. I do want to keep the part about the hobbits getting all upset, and Bilbo coming forward to help Cami. Shall I edit? Then you can look at it. sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 02:15 PM	#391
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	I'm leaving it up to another writer to pick up the ball as far as the Shiriff and what he is going to do about the complaint made by Olo. It would probably be preferable if no one got locked up. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

03-14-2003, 02:48 PM	#392
ArwenBaggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: I don't know... will there be a quiz on this later? Posts: 487	Sorry Guys, I'll be gone all weekend on an archery trip. Could someone take over Elanor until I get back? I'd appreciate it. Much Obliged, Fëa (Elanor) __________________ .:Chelsy:. Reality is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Terennth Kingdoms

03-14-2003, 03:23 PM	#393
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,310	Pio: Done. Helen and Child, I definitely am not in favor of a rewrite along the lines contemplated. I also don't favor the mist of forgetfulness idea. I think its not necessary. My view is that the Shire is a sleepy place where things are quickly forgotten. Its a place where books and records of history are rare and an oral tradition is maintained. Within a matter of years this whole debacle will be recalled in folkloric terms as another "Mad Baggins" episode. After a generation or so it will be forgotten. Knowing the importance of secrecy with regard to the Hobbits of Tol Fuin, the Hobbrim and the journey of The Star in general, Frodo knows that the only way these events could be remembered is if they end up in the Red Book. Perhaps Sam mentions that Elessar has requested a copy. So Frodo asks Sam not to mention these events in his writings. Sam would surely agree and pass the request on to Elanor. This is in keeping with Helen's "State Secret" approach and I prefer it to the Mist of Forgetfulness. How does that sound? __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-14-2003, 03:36 PM	#394
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Mith, I think this is a good idea. It explicitly addresses the question of written history, which is what Helen mentioned as a main concern in her earlier post. I could easily let my mist of forgetfulness drift away. Helen, what do you think of this alternative? sharon __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

03-14-2003, 04:06 PM	#395
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Mith, I think it's a good idea, and I think it does 80 to 90 percent of the job. All I think it needs is the element of doubt and debate, which I think could be easily added in. I think we could easily do that with some strategically placed comments like, "Oh, they may LOOK like Bilbo and Frodo, but that's silly, those two have been gone for years and years." The Shire can argue about it over pipes and mugs of beer, and Frodo can dissemble casually : "Oh, yes, I've heard I bear quite a strong resemblance to him. Isn't it fascinating? Right down to the missing finger. Isn't that odd, now. Perhaps I should take advantage of the notoriety, it might be worth a few free beers." Even in the most recent post, it's easy. Bilbo can just smile and laugh, and answer, "So people seem to think. The resemblance must be rather striking." Everybody around him can walk away arguing. We still get mayhem out of the deal. [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-15-2003, 01:54 AM	#397
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	However-- Having just consulted with a close and trusty friend, as to whether I have gone overboard in zealousness-- it appears I have-- I'll drop the issue. So once again-- nevermind, and, "Uncle". Resolve, or not, as you all choose, and I'll write Frodo as best I can. I apologize (especially to you, Sharon) for headaches/heartaches I've caused. So: "Nevermind, Uncle." [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ps. I'll leapfrog the hobbits' bedtime post til an appropriate spot, since Pio isn't done with dinner. Sorry about that. [ March 15, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-15-2003, 02:39 AM	#398
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Whitelady Rose, what a beautiful post! And wild! A hobbit-lass riding a stallion into battle against orcs! that was great! __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-15-2003, 09:32 AM	#399
theWhiteLady Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 116	Thank you so much, Helen! bows and blushes profusely Gandalf the Gray: Greetings! I am delighted to see Rose shall accompany you on to the Green Dragon! I look very much forward to the trip [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]