dragons and balrogs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

gayare'dion · 09-02-2002, 05:16 PM

which one do you think, is more powerful, a dragon or a balrog ?

just wondering

NazgulNumberTen · 09-02-2002, 05:24 PM

i think this belongs in novices and newcomers.

gayare'dion · 09-02-2002, 05:25 PM

hahahahhaha yes, it does, sorry

Frieda · 09-02-2002, 05:56 PM

I'd say that a Balrog is probably more powerful.

akhtene · 09-03-2002, 04:34 PM

I agree that Balrogs are more powerful than dragons. A dragon's weakness is its 'material' body, that can be damaged or destroyed. Remember how a common archer killed Smaug the Terrible with just one arrow. And their magic, perilous to mortals, was, imho, akin to hypnosis mordern reptiles are said to possess.
Balrogs were the Mayar, fiery spirits, clad on flame and darkness. It took Gandalf 10 days to do away with one. Quite enduring was it (he??)

O'Boile · 09-04-2002, 02:09 PM

I think it may depend on the dragon in question. Glaurung lead an army that included several Balrogs, and the winged dragons lead by Ancalagon the Black held the upperhand against the host of the Valar for a while.

gayare'dion · 09-08-2002, 02:24 PM

i think a balrog would. they know more than just fire spells, like when durins bane did a counter spell, on gandalfs lock spell in moria, and whenever someone has defeated one, they die too.

Orald · 09-08-2002, 03:24 PM

Actually, this topic doesn't really belong in Novices and Newcomers. There have been a few discussions similar to this that took all the material Tolkien ever wrote about the two and then some. Even then I don't think the issue was resolved. There just isn't enough information out there to prove which is the strongest one way or another. I have always had a gut feeling that a Balrog could live a longer life than a Dragon though. Dragons are seem pretty arrogant and Balrogs know when to run and hide.

Donisile Of Mirkwood · 09-09-2002, 10:06 AM

I think that a Balrog would be more powerfull for starters it could paralyze people with fear where as i don't think a dragon could. Balrog wins.

09-09-2002, 06:54 PM

i think dragons cuz.....
well, Gandalf in the end destroyed the Balrog in the depths..but he couldn't destroy Smaug in the Hobbit, so if A > B > C, then Dragons gotta be the most powerful

Orome · 09-09-2002, 07:14 PM

well, gandalf never tried to destroy the dragon. I think that in part it would depend on wheather or not fire can in-fact harm a balrog. I think it cannot. also it depends on the dragon, and the balrog. IMHO the balrog in moria would have had the upper hand in a battle with smaug, because i think that the balrogs offensive weapons outmatch the dragons if fire is not in the cards. However this is only the case if the dragon remains on the ground. This is because given the little info provided in the fellowship of the rings leads to the conclusion that at least the Balrog in moria cannot fly. so the balrog would have the upper-hand in tighter quarters, and the dragon out in the open.

In short, i assume The Balrog cannot fly because the breaking of The Bridge of Khazad-dum was supposed to keep the Balrog from getting to them

This kind of questions is hard because there are so many assumptions. sorry

the phantom · 09-14-2002, 10:53 PM

I agree that it depends on which dragon or balrog you're talking about. Gothmog was the baddest of the Balrogs, and Glaurung and Ancalagon were the nastiest of their kinds.
Yes it's true that a bowman killed Smaug, but that was kind of, well, lucky. Bard wouldn't have stood a chance in a "fight" with Smaug. Smaug would've torched him, knocked him a mile in the air with his tail, and the ate him. Dragons are huge, and also have spirits that are equally potent to a Balrog's spirit. Glaurung could pronounce dooms on people almost like Morgoth himself, and cast spells as well. Before Glaurung had ever reached his full might, it still took a whole mob of archers shooting at him to finally make him turn tail and run, but only after he'd done a lot of damage.
Also, as someone pointed out already, when the flying dragons were released, they even drove back the forces of the Valar.
I'm not saying that dragons are more powerful, but I do think that the voting shouldn't be nearly this lopsided. I think a large part of it is that everyone's seen how bad the balrog looks in the movie, and just votes for it. I would have to think a lot longer to come to any sort of conclusion, but I imagine it would still depend on which particular dragon or balrog was fighting.

lathspell · 09-15-2002, 05:33 AM

I think that if we take Balrogs & Dragons in general, as would be the most succesful in this kind of discussion, and leave out the worst, baddest and nastiest of both kinds, than both of them should be thought of as extremely strong.
Though the Balrogs had magic, and very strong magic, the Dragons were undaunted by it. Balrogs had whips and swords, dragons had teeth, claws and a very strong tail. I think the greater Terror would come from a Balrog, though there would still be a great deal of fear coming from a dragon.
We do know more dragons and Balrogs, but let's take Smaug and the Moria-Balrog. I think that if they would fight together, the Balrog would loose, but when they both had to fight mortal men or elves, the Balrog would do the greater damage, because weapons are no harm to him as Gandalf points out: 'Go. Weapons are of no use here' and 'This is foe beyond any of you' (even Aragorn)...
So I don't think it would be a matter of 'who is strongest', for there is no way to find out such a thing. I think it depends on what you are fighting in what area and what his skills are.

btw: I think a Dragon would have more succes against Gandalf than a Balrog.

greetings,
lathspell

Alatariel · 09-15-2002, 11:05 AM

Hmm. I think dragons are more powerful than balrogs, because in the Silmarillion, didn't it say that Morgoth made the dragons after the balrogs, and they were more powerful...?
I can't remember, perhaps I'm wrong. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] But I seem to have got the idea from somewhere that dragons were more powerful. That's my opinion, anyway!

lathspell · 09-15-2002, 12:30 PM

hullo again,

First I have to better something in my first reply. I said that it should be something of 'who is strongest', but what I meant was that it should not be so. For reasons I will advise you to read my first reply.

Second: Alatáriel: I believe you might be right there. I haven't got the books with me cause I'm not at home, but I'll certainly look into it, when I've got them with me again.

greetings once more,
lathspell

the phantom · 09-17-2002, 09:05 AM

Remember, balrogs can be hurt by weapons, it's just that the wielder of the weapon has to be very powerful in body and spirit, and even if he succeeds in killing it, will surely die in the process. Ecthelion and Glorfindel, who were not angelic beings but elven lords of Gondolin, both slew Balrogs. As a matter of fact, Ecthelion slew Gothmog, the lord of the Balrogs. Both of these elves slew Balrogs in a straight up fight, where as Bard slew Smaug and Turin slew Glaurung because of good timing and fortune. Smaug wasn't focusing on Bard, and Glaurung didn't see Turin because he came from a ravine underneath him, so to my knowledge, no one has ever killed a dragon in a straight up fight, one on one, with the dragon actually being aware of his enemy.

gayare'dion · 09-20-2002, 06:22 PM

i like balrogs personnally, because of theyre diversity in attacks while fighting. i dont think theyre like 50 feet tall as in the movie, more like 12 feet (which is still pretty big), but still, they are extremely strong, and are very capable in magic

09-02-2002, 05:16 PM	#1
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	dragons and balrogs which one do you think, is more powerful, a dragon or a balrog ? just wondering __________________ i like pants!

09-02-2002, 05:24 PM	#2
NazgulNumberTen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Crawled in a dark corner Posts: 369	i think this belongs in novices and newcomers. __________________ "It's not stupid, it's advanced!" -Invader Zim

09-02-2002, 05:25 PM	#3
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	hahahahhaha yes, it does, sorry __________________ i like pants!

09-03-2002, 04:34 PM	#5
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 392	I agree that Balrogs are more powerful than dragons. A dragon's weakness is its 'material' body, that can be damaged or destroyed. Remember how a common archer killed Smaug the Terrible with just one arrow. And their magic, perilous to mortals, was, imho, akin to hypnosis mordern reptiles are said to possess. Balrogs were the Mayar, fiery spirits, clad on flame and darkness. It took Gandalf 10 days to do away with one. Quite enduring was it (he??) __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

09-08-2002, 02:24 PM	#7
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	i think a balrog would. they know more than just fire spells, like when durins bane did a counter spell, on gandalfs lock spell in moria, and whenever someone has defeated one, they die too. __________________ i like pants!

09-02-2002, 05:56 PM	#4
Frieda Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada. Posts: 53	I'd say that a Balrog is probably more powerful.

09-04-2002, 02:09 PM	#6
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	I think it may depend on the dragon in question. Glaurung lead an army that included several Balrogs, and the winged dragons lead by Ancalagon the Black held the upperhand against the host of the Valar for a while.

09-08-2002, 03:24 PM	#8
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Actually, this topic doesn't really belong in Novices and Newcomers. There have been a few discussions similar to this that took all the material Tolkien ever wrote about the two and then some. Even then I don't think the issue was resolved. There just isn't enough information out there to prove which is the strongest one way or another. I have always had a gut feeling that a Balrog could live a longer life than a Dragon though. Dragons are seem pretty arrogant and Balrogs know when to run and hide.

09-09-2002, 10:06 AM	#9
Donisile Of Mirkwood Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 36	I think that a Balrog would be more powerfull for starters it could paralyze people with fear where as i don't think a dragon could. Balrog wins. __________________ Let it not be said and said unto your shame that there was beauty here before you came.

09-09-2002, 06:54 PM	#10
akwhaman Guest Posts: n/a	i think dragons cuz..... well, Gandalf in the end destroyed the Balrog in the depths..but he couldn't destroy Smaug in the Hobbit, so if A > B > C, then Dragons gotta be the most powerful

09-09-2002, 07:14 PM	#11
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	well, gandalf never tried to destroy the dragon. I think that in part it would depend on wheather or not fire can in-fact harm a balrog. I think it cannot. also it depends on the dragon, and the balrog. IMHO the balrog in moria would have had the upper hand in a battle with smaug, because i think that the balrogs offensive weapons outmatch the dragons if fire is not in the cards. However this is only the case if the dragon remains on the ground. This is because given the little info provided in the fellowship of the rings leads to the conclusion that at least the Balrog in moria cannot fly. so the balrog would have the upper-hand in tighter quarters, and the dragon out in the open. In short, i assume The Balrog cannot fly because the breaking of The Bridge of Khazad-dum was supposed to keep the Balrog from getting to them This kind of questions is hard because there are so many assumptions. sorry

09-14-2002, 10:53 PM	#12
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,987	I agree that it depends on which dragon or balrog you're talking about. Gothmog was the baddest of the Balrogs, and Glaurung and Ancalagon were the nastiest of their kinds. Yes it's true that a bowman killed Smaug, but that was kind of, well, lucky. Bard wouldn't have stood a chance in a "fight" with Smaug. Smaug would've torched him, knocked him a mile in the air with his tail, and the ate him. Dragons are huge, and also have spirits that are equally potent to a Balrog's spirit. Glaurung could pronounce dooms on people almost like Morgoth himself, and cast spells as well. Before Glaurung had ever reached his full might, it still took a whole mob of archers shooting at him to finally make him turn tail and run, but only after he'd done a lot of damage. Also, as someone pointed out already, when the flying dragons were released, they even drove back the forces of the Valar. I'm not saying that dragons are more powerful, but I do think that the voting shouldn't be nearly this lopsided. I think a large part of it is that everyone's seen how bad the balrog looks in the movie, and just votes for it. I would have to think a lot longer to come to any sort of conclusion, but I imagine it would still depend on which particular dragon or balrog was fighting. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

09-15-2002, 05:33 AM	#13
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I think that if we take Balrogs & Dragons in general, as would be the most succesful in this kind of discussion, and leave out the worst, baddest and nastiest of both kinds, than both of them should be thought of as extremely strong. Though the Balrogs had magic, and very strong magic, the Dragons were undaunted by it. Balrogs had whips and swords, dragons had teeth, claws and a very strong tail. I think the greater Terror would come from a Balrog, though there would still be a great deal of fear coming from a dragon. We do know more dragons and Balrogs, but let's take Smaug and the Moria-Balrog. I think that if they would fight together, the Balrog would loose, but when they both had to fight mortal men or elves, the Balrog would do the greater damage, because weapons are no harm to him as Gandalf points out: 'Go. Weapons are of no use here' and 'This is foe beyond any of you' (even Aragorn)... So I don't think it would be a matter of 'who is strongest', for there is no way to find out such a thing. I think it depends on what you are fighting in what area and what his skills are. btw: I think a Dragon would have more succes against Gandalf than a Balrog. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-15-2002, 11:05 AM	#14
Alatariel Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cliffs of Insanity Posts: 178	Hmm. I think dragons are more powerful than balrogs, because in the Silmarillion, didn't it say that Morgoth made the dragons after the balrogs, and they were more powerful...? I can't remember, perhaps I'm wrong. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] But I seem to have got the idea from somewhere that dragons were more powerful. That's my opinion, anyway! __________________ You mean you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword and we'll try to kill each other like civilized people?

09-15-2002, 12:30 PM	#15
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	hullo again, First I have to better something in my first reply. I said that it should be something of 'who is strongest', but what I meant was that it should not be so. For reasons I will advise you to read my first reply. Second: Alatáriel: I believe you might be right there. I haven't got the books with me cause I'm not at home, but I'll certainly look into it, when I've got them with me again. greetings once more, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-17-2002, 09:05 AM	#16
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,987	Remember, balrogs can be hurt by weapons, it's just that the wielder of the weapon has to be very powerful in body and spirit, and even if he succeeds in killing it, will surely die in the process. Ecthelion and Glorfindel, who were not angelic beings but elven lords of Gondolin, both slew Balrogs. As a matter of fact, Ecthelion slew Gothmog, the lord of the Balrogs. Both of these elves slew Balrogs in a straight up fight, where as Bard slew Smaug and Turin slew Glaurung because of good timing and fortune. Smaug wasn't focusing on Bard, and Glaurung didn't see Turin because he came from a ravine underneath him, so to my knowledge, no one has ever killed a dragon in a straight up fight, one on one, with the dragon actually being aware of his enemy. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

09-20-2002, 06:22 PM	#17
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	i like balrogs personnally, because of theyre diversity in attacks while fighting. i dont think theyre like 50 feet tall as in the movie, more like 12 feet (which is still pretty big), but still, they are extremely strong, and are very capable in magic __________________ i like pants!