Werewolf XCVII: Werewolves in the Westfold Game Thread

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gal, just so you know where I was coming from yesterDay: a long time ago I was once a seer and had revealed when a wolf counter-revealed; my dream had been killed the Night before, while he claimed to have dreamt a living innocent. He was caught when he started suspecting the very person he claimed to have dreamt as innocent. (OK, that was Morsul, and Kit, even if a wolf, would never have been so clumsy, but it was worth a try.)

Ah. Alright. I had very vivid memories of Borowolf besieging RangerNerwen about who she saved the Night before. (That game wolves won and chaos reigned and it was all very epic, but I would not like a repeat, thank you). And then less vivid memories from other games as well.



I rather like Pitch's vote. Adds to the number of notches for his innocence.

[Galadriel55]

Now I feel like I'm alone here. Been waiting for the past couple hours for someone to post.

[Galadriel55]

Y'all are boring. I'm going to bed.

For the vote, it's between Pitch, Shasta, and Eomer. Whoever manages to convince me better of his guilt by the end of the Day receives the vote!


ETA: I shall be back before DL to make a final decision and vote.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clearly G55 is sexist.

In other news, here and reading.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Eomer

I would also propose that Inzil was trying to buddy up with Pitch, early in Day Two. I get the feeling from this interaction that Pitch is innocent. Add to that list Coppermirror and G55, due to their votes for Nessa, and my guess for third wolf is the one left over:

Shasta.

It's funny, because I also voted Nessa.

Originally Posted by Sally

Can it be true though? Could my psychic flaming wolf boy be....well, a psychic flaming wolf boy? My partner in song, tell me it's not true!

Okay, it's not true.

Originally Posted by Pitch

It's difficult to reach a conclusion about him, but if I limit the amount of overthinking I'm willing to engage in, he does look better toDay than he did early yesterDay. As to his suspecting Shasta over me, I can only say it seems a very Eomerish thing.

Yeah, he does that.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Now this last reason sounds weird to me. Shasta, if you believed Kit to be the real Seer (as your previous posts indicate), why even consider tying it up? Why even mention that it played a role in your decision, when "I believe Kit, see above" would have been perfectly sufficient? Or did you secretly wish you could have voted differently and gave yourself away here?

...Because it would have been funny? I never seriously considered tying the vote between Inzil and Kit. I was just imagining all the delicious reactions if I'd made that vote, and it made me snicker, so I made a comment about it.



In any case, I'm hesitant to narrow it down so far. As far as I'm concerned, the only clear person is Sally. I'm going to go have a look at Cop, since no else seems to be doing such. It'll be up a bit later - this DL is awkward for me. That's the main reason I haven't been around as much as usual - 8 AM combined with my ridiculous sleep schedule is just silly!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Clearly G55 is sexist.

I guess I'm filling in for Agan too.

Ok, now to bed for real... unless another post appears in the next minute or so. Ah, the addictiveness of werewolf!

Edit: xed with Shasta's second post. Yay!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

It's funny, because I also voted Nessa.

Aye, but under different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Shasticle

I'm going to go have a look at Cop, since no else seems to be doing such.

Personally I highly doubt she's a wolf. The D1 vote would have been immensly daring and unexpected for a first vote ever. And in general copper's comments strike me as jen-you-wine, usually making sense and pretty sharp, only sometimes with the trace of newbishness.


And, as Pitch said, if she's a wolf and is playing her first ever game so well, she deserves to win. Though I'd rather have a goodies' victory in that case, I would not grudge a loss to her. But that's beside the point. I'm not analysing her posts because she doesn't strike me as the remaining wolf.

Bed! 'Night all!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Shasta, you voted Nessa for no discernible reason. Like I said before, I find that rather fortuitous. Cop and G's votes were decisive, hence I believe them to be innocent.

G55, I seem to remember talking about Kit a bit on Day One (to defend her from Inzil); I talked about Nessa when she received votes and voted herself. Don't really understand this criticism; don't really understand why Pitch is so compelled by it.

[Coppermirror]

Back now. I'm going to do a quick analysis of the first two Days for each person and then look at the posts from toDay.

[Coppermirror]

I'm starving hungry, so posting my analysis and deciding on a vote will have to wait until after dinner (can't concentrate any more!). But currently I am tending towards seeing Pitchwife as innocent, leaving Eomer and Shasta as the remaining suspects. Points made by G55 and Pitch about Eomer seem fairly persuasive, so if I had to pick someone ASAP, I would probably pick Eomer. But I still need to consider the case against Shasta carefully. He hasn't said much yet, so I want to see more of what he has to say. He's planning to analyse me, but I would very much like to see what he thinks of the other candidates too.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

#19 - summary of posts thus far. Doesn't think anyone looks very suspicious as of yet. Has been talking a bit with Inzil.

#39 - notes that she'd intended to vote for one of the quieter players/people who haven't shown up.

#46 - does the math on what it will mean for the village should Pitch be modfired.

#55 - votes for Nessa. Reasons given - won't vote for Pitch as he's likely to be modfired, and this;

Originally Posted by Cop

As well as that, Nessa was involved in that speculation earlier. I don't really get what was going on, but it could have been used as cover for a wolf.

ShastaNotes - Hm. In hindsight, obviously, the fact that Nessa ended up a wolf makes this vote look better. At the time, though, Kit had two votes and (assuming, obviously, Inzilwolf and Sallyordo) the third wolf yet to vote, so this could be a wolf-on-wolf vote. I say this because Cop's reasons for her vote aren't actually that great, considering basically anything anyone says at any time could be "cover for a wolf".

#59 - responds to Nessa. In my paranoia (and my own stubborn refusal to go with the crowd, since basically everyone else thinks she's innocent), this post reads like Wolf A apologizing to Wolf B for voting them.


Day 2:

#67 - Hm.

Originally Posted by Cop

Whoa, so they took Nerwen. I'm really surprised. They must have thought she was the Seer. I thought she was a possible Seer too, but evidently not. I was sure that they would go for me or for Galadriel55, unless they thought they could get the Seer.

Where's Lottie when you need her? Now, I'm the first to call her out for basing her biases off things like this, but this really does look like someone who's trying too hard to be innocent.

Also:

Originally Posted by Cop

I was planning to vote for Nessa anyway, but out of a last minute "I have to vote for somebody and don't want to get on the Kitanna bandwagon or waste my vote!" worry rather than any actual suspicion. But her voting for Pitchwife seemed suspicious and gave me a real reason to vote for her, and also made Galadriel55 suspicious enough to vote. It's great that she really was a wolf.

None of this tracks with your stated reason for voting Nessa (see above.) It also strikes me as more of the whole "acting innocent" thing. I could do an impression, but that's more Sally's thing.

Also posts a list. Very suspicious of Inzil, suspicious of Eomer and Sally.


On a slight tangent -

Originally Posted by Eomer

To my mind, there is nothing suspicious here. Wasn't everyone a bit suspicious of what Sally did? But then Nerwen (proven innocent now) suspects Nessa from this, and Shasta jumps in with a vote. Coppermirror then votes for Nessa too, albeit with a better reason (Nessa's vote for Pitch). Coppermirror then clarified that the earlier 'suspicion' of Nessa was not a deciding factor, and so I look more favourably on her now.

Keep in mind, Cop didn't clarify anything about the reasons for her vote until after Nessa was revealed as a wolf, which means it could easily be fabricated clarification.



#78 - analyzes Nessa's vote for Pitchwife and the wolf pack's kill of Nerwen. All decent reasoning as far as I can tell, except for the things that were already mentioned earlier in thread.

#79 - three paragraphs of defending Inzil for his "wolf-hooking" plan, and then this -

Originally Posted by Cop

Which is not to say that Inzil isn't still suspicious.

Bit of a turnaround there, I think.

#119 - As I read this post, I'm slowly realizing that I'm stating a lot of what Kitanna already said, and that you've already answered.

Especially about the Nessa-vote. I see you've answered that. It appears you had a fine reason to vote for Nessa the whole time... so why not just say that from the beginning? Now there's no proof that you didn't think up the entire thing after the fact.

#125 - analyzes Inzil and Kitanna regarding the Seer claims.

#127 - after another long theoretical analysis, votes Inzil. This turned out to be the correct vote, but I don't like this -

Originally Posted by Cop

Honestly I find both our possible Seers very suspicious. I don't feel comfortable being the person to bring Kitanna to 4 votes out of 8, ensuring either a Kitanna lynch or a tie (which would be decided randomly). My gut tells me Kitanna, and my head tells me Inzil, and I don't know which to go with. By now I've spent about 5 hours looking at this, and I'm none the wiser, but much more tired and out of patience. So I'm going to cop out on this and leave it up to the three other people who have yet to vote. We'll know soon enough who's telling the truth, I suppose, even if the circumstances aren't ideal. I may or may not be back before the deadline.

This makes it look like you were setting yourself up to have been suspicious of both Inzil and Kitanna... if you were a wolf, you'd know who was lying and who was telling the truth, and... I'm not actually sure what that means in regards to your wolfishness or innocence. I'm tired. But something tells me it's important, so I'm leaving it here.

#146 - Potential wolves are Eomer, myself, and Pitchwife. This tracks from her previous day's suspicion, when she was confident in G55's innocence.

Conclusions to come. My eyes are blurring.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Okay, so, those of you who know me know that I tend to lean on the side of suspicion when I analyze somebody (it's the paranoia, I promise). My analysis of Cop isn't much different - I saw several things that made me suspicious. However, as late in the day as it is, with no one else around, I feel like voting for Cop now would be a throwaway vote - also, knowing how biased I can be, I'd like to give her a chance to at least respond to what I've written. Plus I've got to hit the hay.

Having said that, I feel like I don't have much choice but to go with the self-preservation vote -

++Eomer

Good night.

[Coppermirror]

I don't think that we have much to learn from yesterDay's voting. It would be a good tactic for a wolf to vote for Inzil there and leave the innocents to vote for Kitanna, and after the point when it looked as if innocents might not go for Kitanna it would still be good for self preservation.

Eomer

In general, I think Eomer has been sensible and logical throughout the game. However, there are some points of concern.

Originally Posted by Eomer

"Drat and bebother this village. I don't like either of the two votes for Nessa NOR do I like Nessa's vote for Pitch."

Then in a later comment he votes for Sally.

If he's a wolf, it's impossible for him to be defending a Pitchwolf here. It is possible that he's a wolf defending a fellow Nessawolf and trying to discourage a third vote for her. He explains his reasoning later, and it makes decent sense.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Eomer insists on questioning Inzil. I haven't played with him as a wolf yet, but I imagine he would have no trouble dumping a mate into deep water. This would make Wolfomer look good later if Inzilafolf is lynched: Eomer casts some doubt on him ("see, I suspected him too!") but at such a time when it was safe to do so.

This is a good point. It was a very safe time for him to be suspicious of Inzil.

His comment earlier about thinking he sees a move and considering the possibility of "Inzil plus either Sally or Nerwen as packmates" (followed by a later vote for Sally) may have been an attempt to cast suspicion on the latter two innocents. Hmm...This is quite vague, but I wonder if, given that Inzil was looking suspicious at the end of Day 1, Nerwen being killed was a response to Eomer's analysis? Perhaps to try to make him or Inzil look less suspicious. I'm not sure this reasoning follows, so I'll look it over again once I'm done.

He still voted for Sally even after Nessa's suspicious move. It was essentially a throwaway vote, and it came a minute after G55's vote for Nessa, so he may or may not have seen the latter.

Inzilwolf's analysis pegged Eomer as a wolf. Bluff or double bluff? What a headache. It's probably better just to ignore this point.

Eomer says that

Eomer says For my money, Coppermirror and G55 are probably innocent. Their votes for Nessa were crucial.

He cannot be covering for a packmate here. If he's a wolf, he's being very reasonable as a cover. He also thinks that Pitch is probably innocent and that Inzil was trying to buddy up to him before. Again, this can't possibly be an act of covering for a packmate.

I think that if I were an innocent in Eomer's position, I would probably also have reached the conclusion of Shasta being the most suspicious.

Originally Posted by Pitch

As to his suspecting Shasta over me, I can only say it seems a very Eomerish thing.

This worries me a bit. At this point I do wish I had more recent info on the other players and was aware of what is usually in-character for them.

Shasta

He really hasn't posted much, and that's worrying. He made the first vote for Nessa, which I do not think does anything much to prove innocence. At the time, Nessa had not done anything hugely suspicious (although I think it was enough to base a vote on at a pinch).

So - on Day 1, Shasta says very little, and then votes Nessa. I think he had reasonable grounds for his vote, given the circumstances, but it could have been a vote for a packmate which he wasn't expecting anyone to follow up on seriously. Galadriel55 makes a point in her analysis that Shasta's vote changes the dynamics of the Day's voting and that there was no real need for him to keep away from the Kitanna-wagon. I'm not quite so sure about this. To me it looks as if that would have been a safe vote for a wolf.

But I see that Pitchwife doesn't seem to think so.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

meaning if this was a wolf-on-wolf vote, he could not know Nessa would end up dead - although he had reason to expect Nerwen might vote her too (on the off chance of a Nerwen vote on D1), so it was risky as well as unnecessary, if not as risky as if he'd made the vote later.

(To be clear, I'm talking about the guy who won his last wolf game triumphantly over the corpses of his ruthlessly bussed packmates, so there's little in wolf-on-wolfing that I'd put beyond him.)

So Shasta is certainly capable of throwing his packmates shamelessly under a bus.

What bothers me most about Shasta is something Inzil said on Day 2.

Originally Posted by Inzilwolf

"Shasta? Well, once again why vote for Nessawolf? Granted, as I said, Nessa's vote for Pitch looked pretty darned fishy, but still, it seems he could have found some other option to buy his mate another Day. "

Inzilis misleading there, making it sound as if Shasta voted for Nessa after she placed her suspicious vote, rather than before.

One thing that makes me think Pitch is more likely to be innocent is that he picked Inzil up on this.

Originally Posted by Pitch

"Shasta voted Nessa before she voted me. He was laconic enough about his reasons, but if I understand him right, he was going exclusively on the latching-on point mentioned by Nerwen."

But was Inzil trying to subtly deflect attention from a Shastawolf (in circumstances where someone might well notice) or was he trying to put suspicion onto an innocent? Or maybe he just made a mistake. Inzil knew he was going down at that point, whether yesterDay or toDay.

G55 mentioned that something Shasta said on Day 2 (about how a frustrated Seer-Kitanna might withhold an innocent's name) helped her a lot in her reasoning for voting Inzil. That reasoning also helped me out a lot. But, just because it's sensible doesn't mean he can't be a wolf.

I see Shasta's just made a post in which he's quite suspicious of me. I'll consider this after I've finished writing up what I meant to in this post.


Pitchwife

Not here on Day 1, of course, so nothing to learn from that.

Originally Posted by Pitch

If you're Radagast and they'd killed you, we'd most likely have lynched Kit toDay anyway, whereas this way, they gain a chance of getting you lynched and using toNight's kill on someone else. If the third wolf hadn't come under any suspicion worth mentioning yet, it would be a viable strategy.

This is true. However, this and a few other things do look a little suspicious, paired up with the vote for Kitanna. It's a reasonable conclusion to come to. In fact, Pitch's behaviour here strikes me as something a wolf would really want to avoid. It could be a situation of "A wolf wouldn't say something this suspicious, so I'll say it" but that in itself is very risky, and the sensible thing for a wolf to do that day, knowing that Inzil would be a known wolf by toDay at the latest, would be not to get too close to Inzil.

Saying that he had thought Inzil might be Radagast based on his Day 1 hinting makes some sense, and even known innocent Sally was taken in by that.

I think that was has persuaded me is that Pitch has not been behaving the way a sensible wolf might. Essentially, he's been behaving in a way that a wolf could easily have avoided. As I write this I'm feeling a little less sure of his innocence. At present I'm not planning to vote for him, but I'll check over other people's analysis and anything said since and think it over again.

Galadriel55

If she's a wolf, she's been playing a very calm game and has failed to make any mistakes. I think she's been under the least suspicion out of the non-known-innocents still in the game, which makes me worry a little bit just in case we've been played very well.

Her vote for Nessa was third and the final one needed. She could have been hoping that Eomer or Nerwen would vote for Kitanna and thus give Nessa a fighting chance. But Nerwen did have some mild suspicion of Nessa, and a wolf might reasonably have thought she would have voted for her, had she voted. In which case giving the final vote for Nessa would be a bright move which could reasonably insulate G55 against much suspicion for the rest of the game. Even so, that would be very risky and probably unnecessary. If G55 is a bold wolf, I think she's done very well. But I think that if she's innocent as I expect, her train of thought was logical in the circumstances.

Kitanna said that

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I can see G55-wolf steering votes toward a packmate, but I don't know if I can see it on Day 1.

Kitanna has presumably played with G55 before and would have an idea of this.

G55 indicated early on that she would vote Inzil unless something spectacular happened. Now, Inzil would have been caught anyway by toDay, so no wolf really gains from where they placed their vote yesterday, but her analysis was fairly persuasive and she might as well have placed her vote right then. Wolves would still have benefited heavily from the extra Day it would have taken to lynch Inzil, had we not believed Kitanna in the end.

At this point I still don't have any real suspicion of G55. Given that I think the wolf is likely in the other three, I'm going to continue assuming that G55 is innocent.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I will vote

++SHASTA

And I will also say, clearly risking accusations of 'buddying up', that Coppermirror's posts cannot be those of a first time player. I believe she may be a Downer of the past, returning under a new username.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

G55, I seem to remember talking about Kit a bit on Day One (to defend her from Inzil); I talked about Nessa when she received votes and voted herself. Don't really understand this criticism; don't really understand why Pitch is so compelled by it.

And I said you barely mentioned them, not that you ignored them completely.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Having said that, I feel like I don't have much choice but to go with the self-preservation vote -

Did you write that especially for players to jump on it? I know that even when your eyes are blurring you would not make such a slip, if slip it is, and I understand exactly why an innocent could say that ("I know I'm innocent, I'm not sure about him"), but why to you have to tempt the radar to twitch?

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

If he's a wolf, it's impossible for him to be defending a Pitchwolf here. It is possible that he's a wolf defending a fellow Nessawolf and trying to discourage a third vote for her. He explains his reasoning later, and it makes decent sense.

Can you explain why he could not be defending a Pitchwolf? Do you mean he did not? Or that he would not theoretically do that? Or that the wolf he's defending is rather Nessa than Pitch? I just don't get the logic in this statement.

I don't think Pitch needed much defending at that point, since no one would follow Nessa's vote anyway.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

So - on Day 1, Shasta says very little, and then votes Nessa. I think he had reasonable grounds for his vote, given the circumstances, but it could have been a vote for a packmate which he wasn't expecting anyone to follow up on seriously. Galadriel55 makes a point in her analysis that Shasta's vote changes the dynamics of the Day's voting and that there was no real need for him to keep away from the Kitanna-wagon. I'm not quite so sure about this. To me it looks as if that would have been a safe vote for a wolf.

I said that about his Day 2 vote. There was also a Kitwagon that Day, so it must have confused you. Shasta was the first to clearly favour Kit as the true Seer, after 3 votes for Zil.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

G55 mentioned that something Shasta said on Day 2 (about how a frustrated Seer-Kitanna might withhold an innocent's name) helped her a lot in her reasoning for voting Inzil. That reasoning also helped me out a lot. But, just because it's sensible doesn't mean he can't be a wolf.

The last bit is completely true. May I just correct that Shasta's reasoning, while helpful, only made up about 1/5 of my decision?

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

And I will also say, clearly risking accusations of 'buddying up', that Coppermirror's posts cannot be those of a first time player. I believe she may be a Downer of the past, returning under a new username.

Do you have anyone in particular in mind? I do concur that Cop is playing exceptionally well for her first game.



I don't know why deciding who to vote in the last couple Days was so easy for me, but now it's back to normal, ie I have no idea.

[satansaloser2005]

DL is in ~30, correct?

[Galadriel55]

I think I shall be voting for Eomer in another 15 minutes. I don't want to put a third name into the tally, and between Shasta and Eomer the latter is more suspicious at the moment.

Let's see if the world can turn over in only about 15 minutes.

Edit: xed with sally - yay, I'm not alone! - yes, about 30 minutes.

[Coppermirror]

Re Shasta's suspicions of me:

Not much I can say to refute what Shasta thinks of as me trying too hard to act innocent. My intended strategy as an innocent in my first game has been to not worry too much about appearing innocent or suspicious, and to be fairly loud and try to say what I'm thinking. In part, hoping that lack of guile and polish will convey itself on its own while I'm concentrating on finding wolves. This may be why I'm coming over as acting too innocent to one or two of you. I could probably have been quieter and sounded less that way, but I believe I would be of less use to the village if I had.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

#78 - analyzes Nessa's vote for Pitchwife and the wolf pack's kill of Nerwen. All decent reasoning as far as I can tell, except for the things that were already mentioned earlier in thread.

#79 - three paragraphs of defending Inzil for his "wolf-hooking" plan, and then this -

Bit of a turnaround there, I think.

Yes, I was definitely kicking myself after that post. I had intended to continue on with my reasons for finding Inzil suspicious, and had started writing them, but I was getting very tired and my reasoning was becoming messy. So I decided to delete that part of the post and post again in the morning. Little did I know that the next post would be Kitanna coming out with a Seer declaration about Inzilwolf. I was surprised that nobody thought that looked suspicious until now.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

#119 - As I read this post, I'm slowly realizing that I'm stating a lot of what Kitanna already said, and that you've already answered.

Especially about the Nessa-vote. I see you've answered that. It appears you had a fine reason to vote for Nessa the whole time... so why not just say that from the beginning? Now there's no proof that you didn't think up the entire thing after the fact.

You mean, say that during voting time on Day 1? A couple of reasons. For one, I didn't have time. You placed your vote for Nessa at 12:31 PM GMT. Nessa placed her vote for Pitchwife at 12:43 PM GMT. I had only 12 minutes in which to consider the plan to vote for Nessa to create a tie.

Another reason is that although you clearly think my reason to vote for Nessa prior to her Pitch vote was a perfectly good reason, I thought my reason was terrible. Like I mentioned in post #119, it was not a vote based upon actual suspicion. Putting in a vote that wasn't based on actual suspicion was exactly what I hadn't wanted to do. I was reluctant to do it.

I'm a bit puzzled about this:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

#55 - votes for Nessa. Reasons given - won't vote for Pitch as he's likely to be modfired, and this;

ShastaNotes - Hm. In hindsight, obviously, the fact that Nessa ended up a wolf makes this vote look better. At the time, though, Kit had two votes and (assuming, obviously, Inzilwolf and Sallyordo) the third wolf yet to vote, so this could be a wolf-on-wolf vote. I say this because Cop's reasons for her vote aren't actually that great, considering basically anything anyone says at any time could be "cover for a wolf".

(emphasis added)

You're saying that my initial reason for voting for Nessa (not actually suspecting her, but wanting to create a tie and see what happened) was a "fine reason to vote", but voting for Nessa based on her suspicious vote for Pitch was a bad reason? The only other reading is that you're saying Nessa's behaviour in latching on to suspicion of Sally would be a bad reason to vote for her. Which is exactly what you did when you voted...

It looks as if you are placing emphasis on what I said after I mentioned the basis for my vote. I find it a bit suspicious, especially since, had the latter bit been my reason (which it wasn't), it would have been on the same grounds as your vote. On the other hand, Seer-Kitanna seemed to have the same impression of my voting reasons, and of course she was innocent.

This is the full version of what I said, with emphasis added.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

My reasons: I don't believe that a vote for Pitchwife is a useful vote at the moment, as I think he won't show up and will get mod-fired anyway. I thought of voting for him earlier, but working through it in my previous post persuaded me that it wasn't a good idea. I may be wrong, but that's the basis for my vote.

As well as that, Nessa was involved in that speculation earlier. I don't really get what was going on, but it could have been used as cover for a wolf.

In a post not long before, I'd concluded that a vote for Pitch was a useless vote that wouldn't help the village. It's natural that anyone who came along voting for him would look suspicious to me and would instantly get my vote.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

#127 - after another long theoretical analysis, votes Inzil. This turned out to be the correct vote, but I don't like this -

This makes it look like you were setting yourself up to have been suspicious of both Inzil and Kitanna... if you were a wolf, you'd know who was lying and who was telling the truth, and... I'm not actually sure what that means in regards to your wolfishness or innocence. I'm tired. But something tells me it's important, so I'm leaving it here.

Oh dear, you're trying to read a lot into that. What I said there was exactly what I was thinking. At the time I voted, I wasn't sure which out of Kit and Inzil was the real wolf, and I was tired out and not making progress. So I gave up and voted Inzil because otherwise there would be no option but a tie. Later on that Day, in retrospect, I became more confident about my vote. You can see that in my later comments.

[satansaloser2005]

Mayhaps I could get a vote count? That would be superb.

[Coppermirror]

I'm intending to vote for Eomer. If he's not a wolf, I will vote for Shasta the next Day.

G55, you asked me a few things before. I'll answer that toDay if I have the time, and toMorrow if I don't.

But sorry, Eomer and G55, I'm 100% newbie. Flattered that you think I'm not, though. I've just read a loooot of old games. It's interesting how different it is to play than it is to read.

[Coppermirror]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Mayhaps I could get a vote count? That would be superb.

Pitchwife voted Eomer.
Eomer voted Shasta.
Shasta voted Eomer.

[Coppermirror]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Can you explain why he could not be defending a Pitchwolf? Do you mean he did not? Or that he would not theoretically do that? Or that the wolf he's defending is rather Nessa than Pitch? I just don't get the logic in this statement.

He couldn't have been defending a Pitchwolf because there were only three wolves in the game. Now we know two of them, I've been finding it useful for eliminating possible motivations. I'll look at your post more overNight, sorry for not going over it properly right now but it is coming up to voting time and I'm rushed.

Anyway...I would have liked to hear what Sally has to say about who she currently suspects before I place my vote, but I think I need to vote now, so I will.

++Eomer

I also suspect Shasta pretty strongly, mostly because of what might have been an attempt from Inzil to protect him, so I plan to vote for him next time if Eomer isn't a wolf.

[Galadriel55]

I see the world hasn't turned over yet.

++Eomerwarg




I said warg, but I hope wolf.


Edit: xed with Cop's vote.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

He couldn't have been defending a Pitchwolf because there were only three wolves in the game. Now we know two of them, I've been finding it useful for eliminating possible motivations. I'll look at your post more overNight, sorry for not going over it properly right now but it is coming up to voting time and I'm rushed.

Ah, so it's like he was protecting Nessa, therefore not Pitch. Gotcha.

[satansaloser2005]

I feel like a wolf!Shasta would be much more frustrated by his pack's circumstances so far.

[B]++Eomer]/b[

Sorry. No time.

[Coppermirror]

Let's hope we'll get 3 wolves in a row.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

Let's hope we'll get 3 wolves in a row.

If we did it would be my best game ever.

[Meneltarmacil]

A large mob of townsfolk entered the tavern. Eomer greeted them warmly and asked if they wanted anything to drink.

"Don't play the innocent game with us," said Coppermirror.

Eomer's expression turned to one of confusion. "Innocent game? What is going on? I'm not a wolf, you know that. And haven't I seen you somewhere else, Coppermirror?"

At that moment, the villagers seized Eomer and hauled him off to the gallows.

"Stop!" he protested. "You're making a terrible mistake!"

"It is you who made the mistake of messing with our town," responded Pitchwife as the noose was placed around Eomer's neck.

"Wait! Wait!" cried Eomer desperately. "If you kill me, you'll all run out of beer!"

The mob was momentarily taken aback. They glanced around nervously at the prospect of losing their alcohol supply. Within a few seconds, though, Shasta declared "Enough already!" and released the trapdoor. There was, however, no transformation when Eomer's neck snapped.

"Oh no..."

"He wasn't..."

It was true. The villagers had killed one of their own.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The Living
Coppermirror: Toymaker
Galadriel55: Half-deaf tapestry weaver
Pitchwife: Grumpy old man
satansaloser2005: Wandering minstrel
Shastanis Althreduin: Wandering minstrel

The Dead
Meneltarmacil (Moderator): Gutted by wolves on Night 1
Nessa Telrunya (Werewolf): Beaten and burned by villagers on Day 1
Nerwen (Ordinary Villager): Impaled by wolves on Night 2
Inziladun (Werewolf): Killed in pie fight with villagers on Day 2
Kitanna (Radagast): Neck snapped by wolf on Night 3
Eomer of the Rohirrim (Ordinary Villager): Hung by villagers on Day 3

Night 4 begins. I need a name from the Wolf.

[Meneltarmacil]

Upon waking, the villagers realized that Galadriel55 was no longer among them.

They went to her house to figure out what had happened, but once there, a ghastly sight awaited them.

G55's skeleton and various remains were strewn all over the floor, while her skin had been stretched out and hung on the wall amongst her tapestries. On it, the outline of a white hand had been crudely drawn in blood.

The villagers took down the loathsome trophy and set to burying the body.
--------------------------------------------------------

The Living
Coppermirror: Toymaker
Pitchwife: Grumpy old man
satansaloser2005: Wandering minstrel
Shastanis Althreduin: Wandering minstrel

The Dead
Meneltarmacil (Moderator): Gutted by wolves on Night 1
Nessa Telrunya (Werewolf): Beaten and burned by villagers on Day 1
Nerwen (Ordinary Villager): Impaled by wolves on Night 2
Inziladun (Werewolf): Killed in pie fight with villagers on Day 2
Kitanna (Radagast): Neck snapped by wolf on Night 3
Eomer of the Rohirrim (Ordinary Villager): Hung by villagers on Day 3
Galadriel55 (Ordinary Villager): Skinned by wolf on Night 4

Day 4 has dawned.

[Coppermirror]

So G55 was taken instead of Sally. This is very interesting indeed, and quite a surprise.

Why her?...Pretty much everyone trusted her. She wasn't quite at the point of being a known innocent like Sally, but there was no realistic chance that anyone would vote for her. I suppose she might as well have been a known innocent, if you think of it that way. In which case....

There must be some advantage to the wolf of killing her. Sally, the wolf may believe that you will be easier to persuade than G55 that they're innocent and one of the rest of us is not. Either that, or they are doing this just to confuse us. G55 was around a fair amount yesterDay and did what I thought was quite good analysis. Perhaps there's a chance she struck upon a damaging point for the wolf.

I know I said yesterday that I would vote Shasta. However, I thought about this overNight and decided to do an analysis of Pitchwolf today too, just in case I find anything. There's one point I suspect Shasta on that's bothering me a bit and which I want to look over again in case it's a trick against him. At present, before going through my analysis, I do still find Shasta the most suspicious and the one I'm most likely to vote for. But the Day is long. And really, after such a puzzling move from the wolf, I feel quite motivated to track them down and not allow luck to enter into the equation.

Let's see...out of the known innocents from yesterDay, Eomer thought that Shasta was most suspicious, but G55, if I remember right, thought Eomer and Pitch were the most suspicious. And I thought Eomer and Shasta were. Can't remember what Sally thought.

ToDay is the last Day. If we fail toDay, the village loses without a doubt.

Worst case scenario:
ToDay: 3 villagers, 1 wolf.
We lynch an innocent villager. 2 villagers, 1 wolf.
ToNight: The wolf kills an innocent villager. Village loses.

Yes, that's got to be correct. Therefore...I must assume that the move of taking out G55 is to the wolf's advantage in some way. Even a very small way. My first thought was that G55 might have been got rid of because she was very unlikely to vote for me (and me for her). However, the more I think of that the more I think that can't be it. Because a hypothetical wolf-me would have to be a complete idiot to get rid of someone who would be so unlikely to vote against me.

Eomer, I'm sorry we made a mistake lynching you yesterDay! I'll do my best to look for the wolf. Although I'm beginning to think they're a trickier customer than expected.

Sally, can you think of any reason why the wolf would want to keep you alive rather than G55? (Although there's a possibility G55 was killed because of her own actions.)

[Coppermirror]

I wonder if this is the action of a Pitchwolf?

I need to check the past Day to be sure, but I believe G55 was most suspicious of Eomer-innocent and Pitch.

YesterDay I said that I would definitely vote Shasta toDay. Sally yesterday did at least consider the possibility of a Shastawolf earlier on, too. A Pitchwolf could have been trying to get rid of the person with the most serious suspicions of him.

Or it could be a Shastawolf trying to pull off a double bluff and give us a headache. Aargh.

I'm going to sleep on this, and come back in the morning to get analysing and checking over the previous Day.

[Pitchwife]

That was clever, whoever did it.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

I know I said yesterday that I would vote Shasta. However, I thought about this overNight and decided to do an analysis of Pitchwolf today too, just in case I find anything.

Don't give me that name unless you have reasons to back it up, or it might look like the outcome of your analysis is a foregone conclusion.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

Let's see...out of the known innocents from yesterDay, Eomer thought that Shasta was most suspicious, but G55, if I remember right, thought Eomer and Pitch were the most suspicious.

Hmm. She suspected me a lot on Day 2, but came to see me as more and more innocent yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

Can't remember what Sally thought.

Actually, all she said about her suspicions yesterDay was:

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I feel like a wolf!Shasta would be much more frustrated by his pack's circumstances so far.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

I wonder if this is the action of a Pitchwolf?

Heh. I was a lone wolf facing Sally in endgame once, and it didn't go well. She usually is a pretty good Pitchwolf-spotter. [/buttering up]
On the other hand, the fact that we both fell for Zil's fake reveal might make her inclined to be more lenient towards me than others would. Or not.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

Or it could be a Shastawolf trying to pull off a double bluff and give us a headache. Aargh.

That too. I could see Shasta thinking Sally might be "easier to persuade", as you put it.

Or then, you know, maybe this is the action of a wolf who hasn't yet made up her mind whether to frame Shasta or me and wants to keep both options open.

[satansaloser2005]

Wait, what?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

Sally, can you think of any reason why the wolf would want to keep you alive rather than G55? (Although there's a possibility G55 was killed because of her own actions.)

Insanity? Suicide? Shenanigans? No idea, but whatever the case, there is still one known innocent among us (hello, all), which means we have a ridiculously decent chance of catching a wolf toDay. Also, I'm still alive, so whatever the reason, I'm pleased.


Preface: Shasta, I love you, babe.

Shasta gets upset when his pack is demolished, especially in short order. I know this. YesterDay he showed no signs of being a wolfy wolf boy, at least a really frustrated wolfy wolf boy. When he was up for lynch yesterDay, he did vote to save himself, but he didn't do anything....rash isn't the correct word, but I've had a sleep-depriving few days, so I'll use it anyway, lest I use something even more rude by mistake. The point is that he handled yesterDay really rather well, which, given his recent trend to not handle lynchings well, led me to think yesterDay that he is probably innocent.

That said, he has had a wolf victory in the recent past, which easily could have tempered that losing streak rage that I know very well he has been feeling of late. So if that has inclined him to be less bitter about his pack being taken away from him, I could see him handling yesterDay's situation quite well despite the circumstances. Also, Shasta is a fabulous lone wolf, and may in fact flourish in this adversity, especially since his packmates were struck down so quickly. Shasta Alwolfduin would not hesitate to vote a packmate if it meant the good of the pack. Thus, analyzing his vote record is rather pointless, especially given the craziness of Kitagast and Wolfiladun. He once cast the killing blow against me when we were in a pack together, and then went on to win the game due in large part to that action. Put nothing past him. He is a tricksy, wild little psychic flaming wolf boy, and he is capable of anything.

In short, he's not acting like a cornered Shastawolf would normally act, but normality has changed recently, so that may in fact mean nothing. I need to think more.

I'm going to go look at some posts now, but bear with me, as I could still use some more sleep and may crawl (literally) back into bed at some point during my endeavors.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

In short, he's not acting like a cornered Shastawolf would normally act, but normality has changed recently, so that may in fact mean nothing. I need to think more.

In addition to his recent victory, I think having got rid of Kitannagast would make a difference. The Shastawolf I've played with, both as packmate and on the village side, hates and fears revealed seers, because no matter how well he plays, they can always dream and out him. Knowing that Kit hadn't dreamed him and he could kill her next Night, and being confident of his abilities as a lone wolf could explain his relaxed attitude.

That's not saying we should rule Cop out. Whether or not she's really new to the Downs (see Eomer's speculation yesterDay), she's clearly not new to the game as per her posting, so I'm not giving her passes anymore because "a first-timer wouldn't have done that".

[Pitchwife]

Argn. I have that nagging paranoia in me that Cop is secretly a very cunning wolf about to sail through and make it (when I read her first post(s) toDay I thought I saw a wolf explaining her choice of kill), but every time I think I find something wolvish in her posts, it dissolves under closer inspection.

So I sought enlightenment in Shasta's analysis of her and would like to comment a few points.

Originally Posted by Shasta #171

In hindsight, obviously, the fact that Nessa ended up a wolf makes this vote look better. At the time, though, Kit had two votes and (assuming, obviously, Inzilwolf and Sallyordo) the third wolf yet to vote, so this could be a wolf-on-wolf vote.

But not, of course, if the third wolf had already voted (just saying); also, why "assuming" Inzilwolf and Sallyordo, when we now know that to be their roles? What you're really assuming here (or want us to assume) is your own innocence, on which the argument depends.

Originally Posted by Shasta #171

Originally Posted by Cop
Honestly I find both our possible Seers very suspicious. I don't feel comfortable being the person to bring Kitanna to 4 votes out of 8, ensuring either a Kitanna lynch or a tie (which would be decided randomly). My gut tells me Kitanna, and my head tells me Inzil, and I don't know which to go with. By now I've spent about 5 hours looking at this, and I'm none the wiser, but much more tired and out of patience. So I'm going to cop out on this and leave it up to the three other people who have yet to vote. We'll know soon enough who's telling the truth, I suppose, even if the circumstances aren't ideal. I may or may not be back before the deadline.
This makes it look like you were setting yourself up to have been suspicious of both Inzil and Kitanna... if you were a wolf, you'd know who was lying and who was telling the truth, and... I'm not actually sure what that means in regards to your wolfishness or innocence. I'm tired. But something tells me it's important, so I'm leaving it here.

Hm, if she were a wolf and knew Zil was lying, she would of course set herself up to have been suspicious of him, but why of Kit, who would be revealed to be innocent? She might voice some doubt, so it wouldn't seem she knew too much with hindsight, but focus on suspecting Zil, I think, not wade through all those arguments for or against either side, like she's done. And honestly, Shasta, your last words here sound a bit like, "Hm, I can't really spin this into anything incriminating, but something always sticks."

What stuck out to me in this quote was the phrasing "I don't feel comfortable", which sounds like she's very concerned with how her vote will be viewed by others, and with not raising suspicion against herself. I also notice that every Day up to now, she voted for the player who would end up lynched. I don't know why, but somehow I find that creepy. (Which is a feeling, not an argument.)

The rest of the points Shasta brings against her are pretty much could-bes (or could-be-nots. So yes, I'd say his analysis is a wee bit biased, but I've seen far worse ones (in term of bias, not quality) from a Shastawolf, and his reflection on the matter in his voting post does sound innocent (whether naturally or studiously so, I've no idea).

Which doesn't bring us very much further, I'm afraid.

By the way, I suppose you've all figured out that I'll have to vote first again, and that I'll vote for either Cop or Shasta; also that if I screw up and vote the unknown ordo, the wolf can pile on it. That in mind, is anybody around to talk? I don't have all night.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You guys are going to make my head swell up like a balloon.

But in any case, why is Sally not dead? Love you, dear, but having a known innocent alive at endgame just... I don't know. I suppose G55 might have been just as good, as no one ever seriously suspected her... but still, a Seer-dreamt innocent means there's no chance Sally will be lynched, whereas there was always the tiny chance G55 could have been framed today.

I'm going to have to go back and read more, but given Cop's fixation on voting me today should Eomer turn out innocent, and the fact that she's still alive today, almost makes me think we have a Pitchwolf. But I can't say that with any surety, as I haven't looked at him at all yet. That was just my first reaction.

In addition, Cop responded to some of my points against her yesterday by simple acknowledgement ("Yeah, I did that, so what?") which is something I'm never comfortable with.

Hmm.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pitch

But not, of course, if the third wolf had already voted (just saying); also, why "assuming" Inzilwolf and Sallyordo, when we now know that to be their roles? What you're really assuming here (or want us to assume) is your own innocence, on which the argument depends.

Of course it does. I know I'm innocent, so to me, it's a solid argument.

Originally Posted by Pitch

And honestly, Shasta, your last words here sound a bit like, "Hm, I can't really spin this into anything incriminating, but something always sticks."

...Or I'd stayed up till the dawn and lost my train of thought due to being exhausted. If I'd thought it was no longer important or relevant, I wouldn't have posted it. You're reaching a bit here.

In any case, I'm having to run out the door now. I should be back in a few hours.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'm going to have to go back and read more, but given Cop's fixation on voting me today should Eomer turn out innocent, and the fact that she's still alive today, almost makes me think we have a Pitchwolf.

Forgive me for saying so myself (and maybe shrinking your head a couple of inches in the process), but this is crappy reasoning. Didn't you just say yourself that if not Gal55, Sally would have been the sensible kill-choice? Do you seriously want me (or anybody else) to think that you as a wolf would have killed Cop, leaving two known innocents alive? For if not, the fact that she wasn't killed toNight doesn't prove zip.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

But I can't say that with any surety, as I haven't looked at him at all yet.

Yes, I've noticed that and wondered about it, because I fully expected to be torn to shreds for my support of Zil; it was rather unlike you to let that pass, but I suppose it was due to time constraints and not because you didn't yet know whether you'd need me as ally or lynchmeat.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Back momentarily -

Originally Posted by Pitch

Do you seriously want me (or anybody else) to think that you as a wolf would have killed Cop, leaving two known innocents alive? For if not, the fact that she wasn't killed toNight doesn't prove zip.

Uh. No? I don't believe I said anything like that. What I meant was, my first reaction was that having Cop alive, with her stated intention to vote me today, would be a lovely situation for a Pitchwolf to be in toDay.