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Old 01-20-2016, 01:46 PM   #41
Elmo
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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Nice enough that many of the Dunlendings and their kin had removed to Eriador to become willing subjects of the Northern Dúnedain settling at Bree, and going so far as to abandon their former language and customs.
I'm sure the Dunlendings migration happened in the Dark Years of the Second Age, where they moved North to escape Sauron's shadow and so long pre-dating the establishment of Arnor.
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Old 01-20-2016, 02:26 PM   #42
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I'm sure the Dunlendings migration happened in the Dark Years of the Second Age, where they moved North to escape Sauron's shadow and so long pre-dating the establishment of Arnor.
It could have been a mix of both.

However, I think this serves to highlight the point I made earlier that the foundation of Arnor did not cause disruption to the Bree-folk.
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Old 01-20-2016, 02:50 PM   #43
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I'll observe that the "fall" of Rhudaur (from the Numenorean standpoint) was effectively an Angmar-aided revolt of the native population against their minority Dunedain overlords.
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Gondor conquered swathes of Rhun and the Harad as well. Small wonder men from the Northern Waste to the Southern heats turned to Sauron to drive out their Numenorean oppressors.
I think it's important to be a little bit more precise. You are not making any distinction between ordinary people ("native population", "men") and the nobility, or a local political elite, as if they were identical. It seems more likely to me that a political elite (i.e. the King of Rhudaur, "Black Númenóreans") saw the opportunity to join Sauron and, with his aid, overthrow the current "oppressors" to become the undisputed "oppressors" themselves.

But then again, I don't know the exact passages in the text. Maybe you could provide them for the discussion.

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Old 01-20-2016, 04:27 PM   #44
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I'm sure the Dunlendings migration happened in the Dark Years of the Second Age, where they moved North to escape Sauron's shadow and so long pre-dating the establishment of Arnor.
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Alien too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had had become subjects of the North Kingdomof Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue.
ROTK Appendix F

It doesn't give the reason for the move north, but you could be right. Point is though, that those migrant Dunlendings didn't harbor enough ill will toward the Dûnedain to induce them to resist Arnor. The Bree-men, at any rate, had no qualms with being subjects of the Northern Kingdom.
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Old 01-20-2016, 05:03 PM   #45
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It doesn't give the reason for the move north
I think "during the Dark Years" may be indicative that they were fleeing Sauron.

However, it is interesting because during certain periods the area they moved across was an active war zone and not all that empty, at least of military forces.
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Old 01-20-2016, 05:47 PM   #46
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I think "during the Dark Years" may be indicative that they were fleeing Sauron.~Kuru
I'd agree. They didn't like the Numenorean invaders, but in general didn't like invaders of any kind:

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'They were a secretive people, suspicious of other kinds of Men by whom they had been harried and persecuted as long as they could remember, and they wandered west seeking a land where they could be hidden and have peace.'
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It is said here that the native people of Enedwaith, fleeing from the devastations of the Numenoreans along the course of the Gwathlo, did not cross the Isen nor take refuge in the great promontory between Isen and Lefnui that formed the north arm of the Bay of Belfalas, because of the 'Pukel-men,' who were a secret and fell people, tireless and silent hunters, using poisoned darts. They said that they had always been there, and had formerly lived also in the White Mountains. In ages past they had paid no heed to the Great Dark One (Morgoth), nor did they later ally themselves with Sauron; for they hated all invaders from the East. From the East, they said, had come the tall Men who drove them from the White Mountains, and they were wicked at heart.~Unfinished Tales: The Druedain
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:21 PM   #47
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I'd agree. They didn't like the Numenorean invaders, but in general didn't like invaders of any kind:
I think it does say something about Arnor though that it didn't inspire hostility from Men already there at its inception.
Those of Rhudaur and the area around Angmar don't seem to have been a problem until the Witch-king showed up and brought them under his sway.
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Old 01-21-2016, 09:51 AM   #48
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by whom they had been harried and persecuted as long as they could remember
Apparently the Dunlendings were the people that nobody liked.

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It is said here that the native people of Enedwaith, fleeing from the devastations of the Numenoreans along the course of the Gwathlo, did not cross the Isen nor take refuge in the great promontory between Isen and Lefnui that formed the north arm of the Bay of Belfalas, because of the 'Pukel-men,' who were a secret and fell people, tireless and silent hunters, using poisoned darts. They said that they had always been there, and had formerly lived also in the White Mountains. In ages past they had paid no heed to the Great Dark One (Morgoth), nor did they later ally themselves with Sauron; for they hated all invaders from the East. From the East, they said, had come the tall Men who drove them from the White Mountains, and they were wicked at heart.~Unfinished Tales: The Druedain
This passage has always caused me more confusion than anything else.

The Pukel-men are presumably not the people whom we refer to as the Men of the Mountains/Oathbreakers/the Dead. (I might be wrong about this...another point for discussion?)

So the tall men from the East would, in this case, be the Men of the Mountains/Dunlendings who were wicked at heart. In this case the Dunlendings were invaders as well in their own right.

But then who are the natives of Enedwaith? For some reason I think of them as being related to the Dunlendings.
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Old 01-21-2016, 11:49 AM   #49
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The Pukel-men are presumably not the people whom we refer to as the Men of the Mountains/Oathbreakers/the Dead. (I might be wrong about this...another point for discussion?)
No, they were Drúedain like Ghân-buri-Ghân.

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So the tall men from the East would, in this case, be the Men of the Mountains/Dunlendings who were wicked at heart. In this case the Dunlendings were invaders as well in their own right.
The forerunners of the Dunlendings, maybe. The UT chapter on the Drúedain states:

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An emigrant branch of the Drúedain accompanied the folk of Haleth at the end of the First Age, and dwelt in the Forest [of Brethil] with them. But most of them had remained in the White Mountains, in spite of their persecution by later-arrived Men, who had relapsed into the service of the Dark.
Those 'relapsers' were seemingly the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Interesting that they rooted out the 'native' Drûgs, and their later kin complained of being similarly treated by Gondor and the Rohirrim.

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But then who are the natives of Enedwaith? For some reason I think of them as being related to the Dunlendings.
UT also makes mention (The History of Galadriel and Celeborn) of Men living in Enedwaith. We know that there were already Men in Eriador who made contact with the Númenóreans when the latter returned to Middle-earth, and those were said to be of the same stock as the Edain who had crossed the Ered Luin in the First Age into Beleriand.
It was later, after the time of King Aldarion, that the inhabitants of Enedwaith (presumably those same peoples who had met the Núemenórean voyagers before) that became hostile because of the Ship-men's timber-cutting. The Númenóreans then started treating them as enemies.
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