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Old 08-09-2000, 06:18 AM   #1
The Barrow-Wight
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Ring Project is still alive...

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Look for some increased traffic to come our way soon (and hopefully some increased conversation on the topic of 'canon'). Michael Martinez from Xenite.org has informed me that he is working on a 'Canon' article at Suite 101 and will be mentioning our group as a source of such conversation. His article will probably be published this Friday (11 Aug).

Without rearranging what we currently have, I'd recommend a little preemptive work here in the forum so that if some interested people do drop by they have some good material to work with.



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Old 08-09-2000, 11:27 AM   #2
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Re: Project is still alive...


great news!
May I humbly suggest that rearranging what we do have is rather crucial.
we have several subsections that I think to the newcomer who did not see them evolve would seem confusing -
I still favor a combined Silmarillion/U.tales/HoME and 'canon ' studies
section in the books to offset a hobbit/lotr section
[ a combining of previous suggestions of myself [and I think Mithadan]]
If that is seen as to drastic or otherwise undesirable maybe we could combine all sections of the canon together?

Thanks for the heads up-now that I have finished [?] my Galadriel chapters<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
I should turn my energies back to the Silm.

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Old 08-10-2000, 07:33 PM   #3
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Re: Project is still alive...

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaack. MM has already alluded to the general concept of a canon or a &quot;completed&quot; Sil. in a Suite 101 article. A bit of PR is always a good thing.

I also think that moving this section up where it can be easier seen will help us to determine the true level of interest. If MM's article is coming out tomorrow, it would be best to get a few new threads going.

Wraith, I defer to you on what you want to do with your forums (properly &quot;fora&quot. This is a great site and I decline to advise you on organization. Particularly where I know too little about the practicality of changes. Nor do I want this site to look more (or less) like anyone else's.



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Old 08-11-2000, 04:42 AM   #4
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Re: Project is still alive...

Michael Martinez' article http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/45552How loose is your canon?</a> is now available. Checkit out and come back and start typing!

Thanks to Michael for the mention of our project!

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Old 08-18-2000, 07:36 AM   #5
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Re: Project is still alive...or is it?

Well I am sad to say that I don't see much response to Michael's [I think very good -if slightly inaccurate ] article ; either here at suite 101 or at the white council.
I am puzzled by 30 or so visits to my last Silm rev/new post and not one reply. It must be so bad an idea/outline that it is not worth telling me so? I may have created a new lowmark in debating history.
but I can take some refuge in the fact that silence is golden-so there is still trasure in the Barrows .<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
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Old 08-18-2000, 10:16 AM   #6
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Re: Project is still alive...or is it?

Probably not a low-water mark, lindil, but a high. I think this may just be too ambitious and demanding for most participants. I, for one, come to boards to unwind. I don't want to think too much. If I were you, I would stay at the task and hope that a few more soul-mates eventually stumble in. Traffic's not bad and I'm often surprised by the reanimation of apparently moribund threads. Good luck! I remain interested in your attempts and your accomplishments.
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Old 08-18-2000, 12:56 PM   #7
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Re: Project is still alive...or is it?

Agreed. Lets post these issues under books and let them be hashed out. Maybe our conclusions and citations can be used to annotate the Encyclopedia. Example: Gil-Galad {Ereinion} - Noldo and last High King of the Exiles. Son of Fingon, Silmarillion, p.__. But see, HoME 12, pp. ___, (Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth, etc.).

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Old 08-18-2000, 01:48 PM   #8
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Re: Project is still alive...or is it?

thanks for the encoragement Galpsi.I know what you mean about unwinding-very little of my middle - earth time is spent 'constructively' on yhe silm project. I can take comfort in the fact that this seems to beJRRT's dilemna also. You may well be right about future participation.
until then maybe I will try my hand at the Fall of Gondolin.
lindil

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Old 08-19-2000, 05:14 PM   #9
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Re: Project is still alive...

Well I am new to the project here, but keenly interested. Now when I was reading the debates as to how to put together the revised Silmarillion, I hear numerous discussions on whether or not we should add to the stories. Not having been involved I don't want to fully weigh in, however, maybe if we leave the stories in somewhat their raw state and just include a brief introduction and perhaps a commontary afterwards we could sidestep the whole issue. I teach English (at a jr. high) and one of the interesting things I've noticed is that in fiction (especially in SciFi) is that it is now okay to play with prose in different ways. Should we not portray the materials as fragments that we have only incomplete records of? The Silmarillion could become a different type of book, one that doesn't follow the common structure of literature. If done correctly the story would have a sense of wonder from the discovery of tales from thousands of years ago. Of couse there would be conflicting and incomplete tales- but what tales they are! Just as we do not have a full account of the fall of Doriath after &quot;the Wanderings of Hurin&quot; we could lamment the loss and wonder what would have been revealed when Thingol took up the necklace of the dwarves and clasped it around his neck. The revised Silmarillion will be harder to read than the LotR (but it is already), but it might be a structurally more advanced one (I don't mean that in a judgemental way at all) Let's play with the prose and see what happens. I bet if we had the stories downloaded and a group got together for a long weekend or week! we could rough out a revised Silmarillion on a disk for people to look over. Once again, this may have all be discusssed already, but I would love to hear more from the group here.

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Old 08-19-2000, 06:22 PM   #10
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Re: Project is still alive...

Erm, I'm feeling a bit lost here. Revised Silmarilion? Could I be involved in any way? <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

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Old 08-19-2000, 06:29 PM   #11
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Re: Project is still alive...

Gwaihir, read all the stuff in this forum. This huge project is in need of dedicated (or not so dedicated) contributors.

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Old 08-19-2000, 11:51 PM   #12
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Re: Project is still alive...

Please fill me in quickly on what is happening.

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Old 08-21-2000, 09:32 PM   #13
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Re: Project is still alive...

Seemingly. So when is something actually going to happen?

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Old 08-22-2000, 08:05 AM   #14
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Re: Project is still alive...

Gwaihir, to speak plainly ;
not much.
But I think there were some interesting discussions much earlier, which no one [lindil included] seemed to want to follow up on in the new format.
I think the nature of this project differs from pretty much anything else going up on Tolkien boards, by virtue of the fact that it requires prolonged and sustained
research and thinking on tough subjects, and as Galpsi pointed out 'most people comehere to unwind' .
to date my Silmarillion outline and very brief Ainulindale 'thread' are all that has been posted
re: the texts as a whole or
as chapters [as opposed to an individual character] and they have gone completely unanswered . no questions, comments criticisms. zip. and w/ the proposed Silmarillion outline there have been 30 or so views.
Of course anyone [even'peter jacckson' <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ]is free to post there own ideas and I had hoped that Michael Martinez's Article would prompt a bit of that-as is it is what prompted me to hunker down and outline the additional texts I would insert into the Silmarillion.
It actually took me several hours in the middle of the night-and was a relatively straight forward production[for a slow typer].
Btw, welcome to the barrow of silmarillion studies by the way -newly reposedShieg!]
Shieg has posted some very interesting ideas and I wanted to wait to post a reply as it often seems that my comments end up closing a thread.
But as no one has commented after several days I will say that the idea of linking the stories by explanations differing traditions and varying states of manuscript preservation is worth some discussion- I am pondering a new thread devoted to the question of setting and literary devices w/ which to place
the stories [aelfwin/eriol from lost tales or as diverging numenorean and valinorean traditions as in 'Myth's Transformed'] but frankly I feel like anything I post is likely to sit and languish and having experienced that plenty, I feel like I have few such attempts at new threads left in me before I despair and just keep my outline tucked away in my Silmarillion for my own private reading[which is what motivated me in the first place- the desire to have an expanded Silmarillion to read to myself and children, and share w/ friends].
Like everyone on this board I have a limited amount of time for this project ,as it competes w/ my family and several other things going on in my life and if no posts of substance appear then my motivation decreases and seemingly at the current level of participation it will die or languish
{an appropriate occurance at the Barrowdowns don't you think? <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> } till someone w/ greater time/skill/ drive and patience comes along and animates it again.
So having vented a bit ...
I will return to some of Shiegs ideas: A literary context [as mentioned above would probably be well within the interest level of the board as it requires no actual action only abstract discussion <img src=wink.gif ALT="">
and the idea of passing around the relevant texts on cd rom [I think I have this right] is an excellent and probably necessary idea since several folks [our chief included ] have declared there lack of HoME volumes [esp. the essential 10-12 ].I have no scanner or I would offer to do this.
as to a weekend rendevous -Shieg did you mean virtual [ala chat ] or in the flesh?
I really appreciated your fresh burst of enthusiasm
[ I was in your barrow not so long ago !]
I will try and review your post and see if there were any points I missed .
So , my dear Windlord , if you desire to participate; then add onto what is already happening , via comment or encouragement or addition or strart at it from a new angle . I can at least promise I won't be silent towards your posts-as I know how discouraging that can be.
lindil





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Old 08-22-2000, 05:57 PM   #15
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Re: Project is still alive...

Thank you for the kind reception to my hasty ideas. If I had the computer know-how I would beging scanning the pages in. Perhaps we could agree to just tackle one set of myths like the tale of Hurin and his children and work just that set of stories into a framework that includes as much text from all the available works into a whole. If we are successful with that task, then attempt another chapter, such as the Children in Finwe or the Flight of the Noldor. Lets look at the parts and slowly assemble a whole.

As to the idea of meeting- of course in the flesh would be nice if we had the scanned material on CD and all were together for a major skull session over a weekend and if we only attacked one chapter or set of myths then I think it would be doable. I'm in Dallas- maybe if we find out where everone is located it maybe easier than we think. The getting together that is. If actually getting together is impossible, them perhaps online- hey that's why the internet was invented. Please email me with ideas, shieg@aol.com

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Old 08-23-2000, 03:56 AM   #16
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Re: Project is still alive...

I think that a discussion over the Net, if everyone had the books in front of them, would be a good idea. We could thrash out some ideas and maybe get the project kick-started.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-23-2000, 08:37 AM   #17
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Re: Project is STILL alive...

I hereby second the motion of the Spirit of the Downfallen West.

maybe once a week or every other week?
lindil

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Old 08-23-2000, 04:27 PM   #18
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Re: Project is STILL alive...

Sounds good to me. Although, I`ve never even used ICQ before, so I have little idea how to get this organised.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-24-2000, 06:06 AM   #19
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Re: Project is STILL alive...

Ditto re: ICQ

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Old 08-24-2000, 08:59 PM   #20
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ICQ/offline

I am currently undergoing an upgrade so I won't be online for a bit.

I am also ICQ ignorant .
Does anyone have a clue as how to facilitate it???

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Old 08-25-2000, 01:48 PM   #21
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Re: ICQ/offline

I can do 2 different things: explain ICQ and get everyone together in an ICQ chat or tell you all about the #barrowdowns room at DALNET. Which should we go to, and when?

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Old 08-25-2000, 02:42 PM   #22
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Re: ICQ/offline

I would vote for DALNET.

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Old 08-26-2000, 05:55 PM   #23
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dalnet

Speaking from an abundance of naivete', it sounds as if Dalnet is the way to go.
as to a time: late sunday night?

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Old 08-26-2000, 08:25 PM   #24
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Re: dalnet

I don't think that late Sunday is such a good idea, as people have school and work on Monday. Saturday sounds better.

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Old 09-01-2000, 02:30 PM   #25
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Internet Sabbatical

Well brothers [and sisters?] , I have spread myself way too thin and need to do a bit of regrouping before I can contribute w/ a clear conscience . I have little doubt this wee project will be all but wrapped up before long ...but just in case it isn't and I could be of some service you can email me at theryans@best.com.
If the dalnet gets going [esp.on an every other week basis] I would happily log on .as that is about where I should be at with this.I do hope to put out a fan -fiction thing on Maglor and the art of the minstril [see suite 101- this week 's discussion ]
For those of you who do pray please remember me- look forward to seeing you ASAP.
the temporalychallegedone, lindil
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Old 09-05-2000, 11:14 PM   #26
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Re: Project is still alive...

I also am new here, and also intrigued by the idea. Not sure how the legalities of this would apply tho. The gentleman has a point here, and one I've personally come to believe. The SILMARILLION is really Bilbo's TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH (note: TRANSLATIONS is 3 books; Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Quenta Silmarillion (or Noldorion if you prefer) with Akallabeth and Of the Rings of Power appended to them. Taken in that context, Bilbo may not have translated entire texts or had all possible texts available, nor must they be in a 'normal' format. I've read MM's Article. I've seen where Christopher has been mislead in assumptions and missed obvious conclusions which were conditions MM did not even discuss. The section in MYTHS TRANSFORMED and LATE WRITINGS must invariably be incorporated. To what extent would that damage the tales? Probably not as great as believed. He implied this would be a forgery. Perhaps. Perhaps not. All depends on the care.

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