The power delegated by Iluvatar

[Ar-Luman]

Two things....

1.) When Iluvatar created the Ainur, did he give an absolute amount of power to each? By this, was it possible for one of the Ainur to become more powerful as time went on or was it set in stone that they had "X" amount of special abilitites, powers, ect. ect.

2.) It is stated that Melkor was the greatest of all the created beings. Even though we see him wrestled down single handedly by Tulkas (please correct me if I am wrong). My question is if he was the more powerful how did this happen? Is power a relative thing? Was Melkor more powerful because he had more attributes than the others, and power is calibrated by what you can bring to the table as far as skill. Or was he more powerful because of physical and mental toughness.

[Aiwendil]

1. It would certainly seem that Sauron became more powerful through the creation of the Ring; however, elsewhere it appears that each Ainu had a finite amount of innate power. This could perhaps be explained thus: Sauron put some of his innate power into the Ring, but the Ring also had some power by virtue of its craft alone. Thus Sauron + the Ring is greater in power than Sauron alone.

2. Melkor was originally the greatest of the Ainur; he gave up much of his innate power, though, to provide power to his minions. Eventually, he so dispersed his power that he himself was relatively weak; remember he was nearly defeated by Fingolfin. This is briefly mentioned in The Silmarillion, and is more fully expounded in Morgoth's Ring.

[Westerly Wizard]

1. It seems that each Ainu was given a certain amount of power to begin with. However, there are appearences of their power rising or falling. For instance, Melkor lost much of his power by corrupting other beings with it, and the Balrogs lost power by being corrupted by Melkor and having to stay in one form. As mentioned, Sauron was able to increase his power by pouring some of himself into the ring - "externalizing" it in order to achieve its greatest "potency" (Letter 211). Saruman also loses power by overstepping his limits as an istar and turning to evil, for which Gandalf removes him from the order, defeating him. And it seems that Gandalf recieves an increase in power (as opposed to only ability to express his power) when he returns from death.

2. Power is indeed more than just brute strength, both here on Earth, and notably in Tolkien's world. Tulkas himself is called the strongest of the Valar, but he is not even included in the Aratar, or eight most powerful Valar. Wisdom, talent, and leadership probably go into it. Also, power doesn't always determine defeatability or the victor in battle. Melkor is called the most powerful Vala, but he is banished. Saruman is called the most powerful Istar, but he fails to Gandalf who is weak and scared. But Gandalf is humble, and one of Tolkien's great themes is the enoblement of those with humility and commonness.

[HerenIstarion]

I should exclude from paragons listed above Saruman and Gandalf, for they were incarnates, and, though loss of power by Saruman was really due to his sinful actions, Gandalf's increase was caused by his death and ressurrection, but was nothing new to him as he was in maia form, but allowance to use more in a new incarnate form

[Westerly Wizard]

HeronIstarion-It seems to me that Saruman for certain loses more than just power in his incarnate form. After Grima kills him, he no longer has the power to retake a form, which he certainly would have had before he was sent as an istar. The change in power to his maia form is perhaps only due to the fact that he was slain while incarnate, but definitely existent. Also, for the istari, there power in the incarnate from is largely representative/proportional to their actual powers, so that if Saruman clearly loses power as an istar, it is possible to infer that his maia from was made less powerful.

As for Gandalf, it is slightly less certain that he actually gained power, but I believe that is actually the case. I posted in the topic "Gandalf and Sauron" in this forum with my explanation on why.

[HerenIstarion]

heh, I sense fellow incarnation problems interested BD-er here. Maybe I shoud readress you to some older stuff, kind of:
One hand tied behind their backs here

[Telchar]

Westerly Wizard said:

It seems to me that Saruman for certain loses more than just power in his incarnate form. After Grima kills him, he no longer has the power to retake a form, which he certainly would have had before he was sent as an istar.

Do we know this for a fact? Who sais that the spirit of Saruman wasnt able to take some kind of shape in some later age? We know for a fact that it took Sauron a long time to regain power and physical shape.

Cheers T

[GildorInglorion]

Good point, But the real loss of power for Saruman was not Maia to Istari, I think it was when Gandalf broke his staff.
I think Saruman lost all his powers, except for the voice when he was excluded from the high order, and essentially beeing nothing more than an evil human.
Had Grima killed him before his staff was
broken (could he?), his spirit would have definitly returned (afto how long???), now I'm not so sure.
Doesn't one gain power simply by living and learning. The prime reason that Cirdan, Galadriel and Elrond are so powerful are 1: their family but 2: Their age (wisdom). Elronds sons and Arwen or not nearly as powerful.
Gandalfs death experience made him wiser, and therefore more powerful, and more SELF CONFIDENT.

(I've started a topic in this forum "Most powerful characters", I would love some comments...)

[HerenIstarion]

Welcome to the Downs, Gildor Inglorion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Well, let me comment a bit, would you?

when Gandalf broke his staff

It was not a reason of Saruman loosing power, it was a symbolical expression of him being expelled from the order. A staff for a wizard in ME is not a source of power, but kind of a conductor of power inherent to wizard himself. He lost his power because of disharmony with the position natural to him as a maia and as an istar he placed himself in. to quote myself:

(H-I)

Any creature, however powerful it may have been in the beginning, not serving it's creator but itself degenerates step by step and loses the power instead of accumulating it, as the creatures of the good will are always supported (even that they themselves may know it not) by higher power

I still stick to that.

I think Saruman lost all his powers, except for the voice when he was excluded from the high order, and essentially beeing nothing more than an evil human.

Not when he was expelled, but already, for he has left path of wisdom (neither the reason was loss of power, rather an opposite):

(Gandalf at the Council)

White! " he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
' "In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."

the conversation between Gandalf and Saruman occurred long way before Saruman was cast out of Heren Istarion (no pun intended [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]), but Saruman may be considered as out of it, by his own choice. Afterwards, breaking Saruman’s staff Gandalf just officially confirms the thing already made by the choice of Saruman himself.

He was more than an evil human, he was fallen maia

Had Grima killed him before his staff was
broken (could he?), his spirit would have definitly returned (afto how long???), now I'm not so sure

Staff has nothing to do with it. I can see your point – you are paralleling istari staffs with Sauron's ring, but that’s not correct, for if it was similar kind of artifact, what on earth would Saruman try to forge his own ring for?

(Gandalf at the Council)

'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.

Doesn't one gain power simply by living and learning

One does. But only (look above) when in harmony with what Eru supposed creature to be. Compare with

[quote](Valaquenta)

From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless. Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness.

(emphasis mine)

Same is applicable to all falling. Saruman starts to weaken as soon as he wishes power for himself.

Gandalfs death experience made him wiser, and therefore more powerful, and more SELF CONFIDENT.

Entirely incorrect. Gandalf’s death experience made him new, reborn. And not self, but Eru-confident, if I am allowed to coin such an adjective.

LoTR is very complicated work, and more you dig in, more you find, But one of the ideas seen with the eye unarmed is Don’t put yourself first, or either you will be dark lord on your own level

[GildorInglorion]

Thanks, lots of interesting commentary, but you misunderstood me about the staff. There is, of course, no such connection between a wizard’s staff and Sauron’s ring.

I’m not talking about literally breaking the staff (like destroying the one ring), I’m talking about the whole episode; Saruman has to accept he is not the most powerful Istari, being “defeated by Gandalf”.

You are absolutely right that any creature living in harmony with Eru will gain power, and any creature opposing him (her, it?) will lose power. But SLOWLY. It took ages for Elrond to become what he is, and Morgoth was still powerful at the end of the first age after many years of treachery.

So, when did Saruman loose his powers?

quote: “Not when he was expelled, but already, for he has left path of wisdom”

Saruman did not loose a lot (but a little) of his power when he “abandoned reason for madness”, got corrupted. He could still hold Gandalf captive, still create an army, even create a new kind of creature. But from that day (The exact time is probably discussed somewhere else) his power was slowly tapped out of him. Slowly. I still think that if Gandalf had not had his conversation with Saruman after Isengard was destroyed (broken his staffJ ) , he would still be powerful and the Shire would have been in a far more serious condition.

Another issue here is that dark powers (with good I’m not so sure) seem to grow if their armies are succesfull. Sauron can off course be more victorious if he is more powerful, but I think it’s also the other way around, Sauron himself grows with the success of his actions. I think it was a greater blow to Saruman’s power that Isengard was destroyed and his army defeated, then the slow process of loosing power as opposing Iluvatar.

So, for short, one loose a little power when one abandons Eru for oneself. One’s power is somewhat dependant on one’s success. Any creature opposing Eru looses power over large time- spans, not months but centuries.

And finally, how do you create those quotes?

[HerenIstarion]

Dear friend, you are speculating wildly there. Not that speculation is bad thing (your humble servant committed the thing many many times before) or unwelcome, but it lives me free to disagree with you [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

as for quotes, three options:

1 use button down and to the right of the reply window

2 Follow the "what is UBB Code" link and read what is has to say

3 put the word quote inside [] brackets in the beginning of the sentence, and /quote in [] at the and of it

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[HerenIstarion]

Yet again, take a look at this

[Helkasir]

recurring theme or concept that Tolkien adresses everywhere:

absolute power corrupts absolutely

[Anarion]

Is lust for Power the demon? Or is it just basic wantonness in any form? Power is necessary to the accomplishment of work. But what is the Goal? To dominate others, or to help? If there was such a thing as Absolute Power, and you put it in the hands of the Most Virtuous, would it corrupt that indivual, or would it lead to the creation of an Eternal Paradise? Who would be the One to pass such a test?
I'd like to say that Melkor is described as being "Mightiest" among the Ainur. I don't recall it said that he is most 'Powerful'.

[Ar-Luman]

To clear things up I said he was the greatest of all created beings and that he was more powerful than the rest of the Valar. This is true. Now, what I meant by absolute power in the context in which it was used, was a set amount of power.