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Old 02-01-2007, 11:02 AM   #1
alatar
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alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
LotR3-RotK-Seq23

“I’m glad to be with you, Samwise Gamgee…here at the end of all things.”


Sam burns away his last bit of strength getting Frodo to the entrance to the Sammath Naur. Lucky that that path was there, though it wasn’t put there for the exclusive use and benefit of one Sam Gamgee. For whom, actually, it was made and more importantly maintained, I’m not sure as Sauron is, I think, bereft of legs and can now only swivel about atop his high tower (and not even swivel 360 degrees at that!). Frodo seems all but dead, but not dead enough to avoid an attack from Gollum. The Slinker beat them to the mountaintop, and from atop a rock jumps down upon Sam and Frodo. Sam is momentarily downed, and Frodo has to fight Golllum alone. Odd that Frodo tries to hold Gollum to his oath, sworn on the Precious, as from what I can remember that oath was broken in Shelob’s Lair, but then again, maybe it’s me. Maybe hope springs ever eternal in Mordor. Sméagol is at least an honest thief as he tells Frodo that when he swore the oath, he had lied. Gollum presses his attack – trying more to kill Frodo than just trying to take the Ring, as he might try later . Sam recovers enough to bean Gollum’s head with a large rock. Still, after taking a hit that would felled an Uruk in Orthanc, Gollum comes back for more. Sam meets him, and the two begin to wrestle, as angels of dark and light must do for possession of one’s soul, as these two here do for Frodo’s.

Concurrent with Sam and Gollum fighting, we see what is taking place outside the Morannan, and it’s a big mess even before the Nazgûl begin to arrive. Definitely a scene to watch in wide-screen. Gollum takes a bite out of Sam’s shoulder, and Sam slices Gollum with Sting. Frodo, now energized, heads for the entrance to the Sammath Naur.

Gandalf looks on while the Nazgûl begin their aerial attack, and as he does (…and I can’t but help to wonder what he thinks. Is he afraid of the lesser Nazgûl?) While he wonders, we see a moth flit by, and that’s to remind us of something that took place two films ago. Suddenly an Eagle appears and attacks the approaching Winged Nazgûl. Air support for the good guys! Pip becomes hopeful.

Frodo makes it to the entrance to the Cracks of Doom and enters. Sam follows shortly thereafter, and we see the place hasn’t changed much in 3,000 years. Note that, wasn’t it in the Fellowship of the Ring where Gandalf calls Orodruin ‘Mount Doom?’ Anyone in Middle Earth ever ponder that name? Why would Sauron keep a path maintained to a place called ‘the Cracks of Doom?’ Nowhere else in Mordor to barbecue? Did Sauron think himself a member of the Turambar clan? Anyway, Sam sees through the smoke that, at the very edge, at the Edge of Doom, Frodo stands and looks back. For the moment, he’s still Frodo, but that’s about to change.

Sam replays the part of Elrond, and so you know who that makes Frodo. It’s been noted by others the similarities of the Isildur and Frodo shots, and so I won’t elaborate on those. Sam can’t figure out why Frodo hesitates, and changes his plea from ‘throw it in’ to ‘let it go,’ which I find very nice. Frodo continues to look upon the Ring, and its power finally takes over his soul.

And I love the ‘heartbeats’ in the background.

Frodo claims the Ring. Interesting that, also like Isildur before he went a’ swimming, Frodo yanks and snaps the Ring from its chain. Just who made that chain, and does it come with a warranty? Sam begs with his heart and cannot believe what he sees with his eyes.

Frodo slowly goes to place the Ring upon his finger. When he does, Sauron is instantly aware of him. His folly has been laid bare. The Nazgûl are summoned and speed towards Mount Doom, upon which doom will fall, along with a lot of lava. Frodo’s footprints can be seen walking towards Sam, which is silly as in what medium are they being shown? Dust? Then where are the ones from Frodo’s initial walk? Damp earth? Whatever.

The angel of Light is here; where’s the Dark? Gollum creeps up behind Sam and returns the rock that Sam had flung his way earlier. Gollum figures out that Frodo is dancing about (the foxtrot?) and makes to attack him once more. The two begin to struggle, and Frodo starts to whine.

Although Sauron should be preoccupied with the events on Orodruin, his will continues to steer his orcs and warriors over at the Morannon. Aragorn fights a particularly scary-looking Battle Troll while Gollum and the Invisible Hobbit wrestle for possession of the Ring. Finally Gollum bites the finger bearing the Ring from Frodo, who immediately returns to our world, screaming in pain. Ouch!

Just as Frodo and Sam are now prone, Aragorn hits the dirt as well. Cousin Legolas tries to help. Gollum, now with the Ring, is the happiest person in Middle Earth. Frodo, now recovered, goes to get back his Precious.

Aragorn gets stomped by the Troll, but he uses his dagger to bite back.

Frodo and Gollum fight and fall over the edge. We see Gollum fall into the lava below. Though the temperature of the molten rock is about 2,100°F (1,140°C), Gollum takes a moment to melt. This was intentional, as I think that the directors/producer thought that Gollum sinking immediately just quickened the scene too much. Gollum slowly sinks, and the Ring sits upon the molten rock (hey, it’s a magical world) awaiting Frodo’s decision.

Sam finds Mr. Frodo hanging over the edge, and he reaches down to help his master. Frodo again hesitates, and the words inscribed upon the Ring begin to glow.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

The darkness of addiction, methinks. Frodo makes one attempt to take Sam’s helping hand, but blood keeps his hand from holding Sam’s. It seems, for a moment, that Frodo gives into despair, and would rather be dead with his Precious than alive without it. Sam’s hope finally passes into Frodo, who then takes his hand. Note that, in the Fellowship of the Ring, it was Frodo that saved Sam from drowning in the Anduin, so we’ve come full circle there.

Finally, now that Frodo has made his decision, and has let the Ring go - also somewhat like Bilbo who let the One Ring behind on the floor of Bag End - the Ring dissolves and washes away.

Sauron is none too happy. He gets a really bad case of eye-strain, and his minions finally take notice and begin to scatter. Barad-dûr, tower of adamant, crumbles, cracks and crashes into rubble, and the Eye that is Sauron goes down like a sinking ship and then explodes in a Ring of light. The Fellowship realizes that Frodo has completed the quest; the Ring, Sauron and all that he’d wrought is no more. A wave of light flows out of Mordor, the last breath of Sauron perhaps. His armies now flee and the (Middle) earth opens up and swallows them. Mount Doom explodes anew, and the Nazgûl burn as well. The joy of Frodo’s success is quickly turned to sorrow for his friends as they realize that Frodo (and Sam) obviously sacrificed himself to complete the quest.

Note that I would have liked the smoke shape of Sauron, reaching out menacingly, to be blown away, but that might have been confusing.

Meanwhile, Sam and Frodo find new strength and try to put some distance between themselves and Sauron’s forge. Once outside, Frodo realizes that ‘he did it’ and that the Ring is no more. He and Sam await the inevitable as they sit on an island amidst the calamity of the mountain. As they wait for death to arrive, Frodo remembers the Shire. He has come through in possession of his soul. Sam has thoughts of Rosie, and he begins to weep of the wife and children that he will never see as, now, even Sam has no hope left. Frodo, without the Ring, becomes a caregiver once more, and comforts his Sam as he is able. The best line is then spoken (see above).

Even knowing what’s going to happen, it’s sad as these two have given all that others may have fresh earth to till.

Fade to black. Is the movie over? Are these two hobbits dead? We see a long shot of them lying dead, perhaps, on their rock island, then eagles appear with Gandalf. The eagles grab and carry our two heroes away, and Frodo still lives as he flies above the ruins of Mount Doom, as if in a dream.

But are the eagles taking these two to the Houses of Healing, or to a place of honor in the tombs of Rath Dínen? Once thread is left to post, and we to will have arrived at the end of all things…SbS.
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Old 02-02-2007, 04:28 PM   #2
Elladan and Elrohir
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Marvelous stuff. Whatever you got wrong, PJ, you got the ending right. You finished brilliantly well.

Note that Gollum's reappearance surely can't be meant to surprise anyone. No one in their right mind, however ignorant, would believe he died when he went over the edge. I'm glad the filmmakers didn't try to shock the audience with it; it would have fallen flat.

Frodo running up Mount Doom . . . brilliant. Nothing like a little adrenaline to get you up into Sammath Naur.

I am just so pleased with the way the Cracks of Doom scene is played. It could have been a disaster, if Frodo had been portrayed as intentionally pushing Gollum over the edge. I suppose you could still look at it that way, but to me it's clear that like Gollum, all he cares about is regaining the Precious.

Back in Morannon, it's a great moment when the Eagles show up, and Pippin gets to deliver Bilbo's immortal line, just like in the book. Note that when the troll knocks Aragorn down, Viggo looks directly into the camera for a split second. Wonder if that was intentional. Legolas, who was ready with a rope to save his Ranger friend at Helm's Deep, can't get to him now. Clearly PJ's way of saying, The only thing that can save him is what's happening over at Orodruin.

The expressions on the Companions' faces as they witness the crumbling of Mordor is perfect. Gandalf's lips push up in an expression of pride. Aragorn seems to be going through shock and awe. And Merry triumphantly hails the impossible achievement of his cousin. And then, the looks change as the mountain boils over. Perfect.

More great acting from Elijah Wood now that the Ring is destroyed. Well, Sean Astin too, but Elijah brings to mind the words from the book where it talks about how Frodo's burden had been lifted from him. You can truly see a difference in the way he carries himself, the way he talks.

Oh, and, dare I mention it again? The score is brilliant throughout.
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Old 02-06-2007, 06:47 PM   #3
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Narya

Let me just say that this is one of the greatest climaxes to a movie I've ever seen (not counting endings, though). It takes these characters we've followed for so long and finally brings them full-circle. Watching this scene in the cinema was mind-blowing; all these emotions and adrenaline at once. I'm going to go with Elladan and Elrohir here and say it was something Peter Jackson got RIGHT. Sure, there were a few changes to the scene, but I think they actually made it more powerful in terms of concluding what had come before (see below). This is perhaps the strongest set of scenes in the whole trilogy, just for the raw emotional power it supplies.

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Sam burns away his last bit of strength getting Frodo to the entrance to the Sammath Naur. Lucky that that path was there, though it wasn’t put there for the exclusive use and benefit of one Sam Gamgee. For whom, actually, it was made and more importantly maintained, I’m not sure as Sauron is, I think, bereft of legs and can now only swivel about atop his high tower (and not even swivel 360 degrees at that!).
Surely it would have just been made back when Sauron had a physical form. Note a choral version of the Fellowship theme here.

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Frodo seems all but dead, but not dead enough to avoid an attack from Gollum.
Wasn't there a line in the book saying that an attack and the possibility of losing the Ring would have been the only thing that brought him to life again?

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Odd that Frodo tries to hold Gollum to his oath, sworn on the Precious, as from what I can remember that oath was broken in Shelob’s Lair, but then again, maybe it’s me. Maybe hope springs ever eternal in Mordor.
This is just the first time he'd been able to actually say it, I guess. Or they could have just needed something to fill up the extra time for the EE.

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Sam recovers enough to bean Gollum’s head with a large rock. Still, after taking a hit that would felled an Uruk in Orthanc, Gollum comes back for more.
It does seem inconsistent. The only reason I can think of was that Merry and Pippin were strong and healthy whereas Sam was close to death, so his throwing ability would have been affected.

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Sam meets him, and the two begin to wrestle, as angels of dark and light must do for possession of one’s soul, as these two here do for Frodo’s.
I kind of wish Sam could have said his rushed farewell to Frodo and maybe spoken furiously to Gollum instead of the wordless fight in the movies, but I suppose it would have slowed down the pace.

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Concurrent with Sam and Gollum fighting, we see what is taking place outside the Morannan, and it’s a big mess even before the Nazgûl begin to arrive. Definitely a scene to watch in wide-screen.
Whilst I agree the battle looks very impressive, it also seemed a bit boring somehow...yet moreMoreMORE Orc-killing by Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas/Gandalf. I would have liked a bit more variation in the fighting, as by now the endless hacking up of the weak-against-heroes-but-somehow-invulnerable-against-normal-soldiers Orcs has gotten a bit redundant.

I do like the shot of the Winged Nazgul advancing in formation, however.

Notice that in the same shot, we see behind the Black Gate, and you can spot the Trolls that pulled the opening mechanism from TTT that alatar despised so much

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Gollum takes a bite out of Sam’s shoulder, and Sam slices Gollum with Sting.
For some reason, I found this rough and tumble fighting far more brutal than anything the heroes did to the bad guys. Maybe it's because it's more realistic, so it's much 'closer to home'. Am I onto something here or just looking too deeply at this?

One thing I find odd here is that Sam never bothers to finish Gollum off - he just cuts him and leaves him there. In the book he pities him in his last moment with Gollum and spares him, but we don't get that here so it seems strange that he would leave such a dangerous foe alive and active.

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Gandalf looks on while the Nazgûl begin their aerial attack, and as he does (…and I can’t but help to wonder what he thinks. Is he afraid of the lesser Nazgûl?)
I'm not going to comment on this. All I'll say is that this weak Gandalf from the earlier scenes is not liked (though at least he cuts up some Orcs here).

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While he wonders, we see a moth flit by, and that’s to remind us of something that took place two films ago. Suddenly an Eagle appears and attacks the approaching Winged Nazgûl. Air support for the good guys!
I just love this bit. Gandalf's expression as he spots the moth and then looks up is brilliant. The Eagles swooping in and attacking was marvellous to see (though there should have been more of them). Notice that one of the Ringwraiths is knocked from his mount and falls into the battle.

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Pip becomes hopeful.
I love seeing the line from The Hobbit present here - it's all in the same story that Tolkien began on a blank exam sheet so many decades ago. Fantastic.

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Frodo makes it to the entrance to the Cracks of Doom and enters.
This should go without saying by now, but I think the music is brilliant - particularly like the bit that plays when we see the long shot of Frodo entering the doorway and Mount Doom behind it all. It's also the last 'triumphant' moment in Frodo and Sam's quest - the last good point until the Ring is destroyed. In many ways we are reaching the darkest point of Frodo's journey now.

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Note that, wasn’t it in the Fellowship of the Ring where Gandalf calls Orodruin ‘Mount Doom?’ Anyone in Middle Earth ever ponder that name? Why would Sauron keep a path maintained to a place called ‘the Cracks of Doom?’
Why not?

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Anyway, Sam sees through the smoke that, at the very edge, at the Edge of Doom, Frodo stands and looks back. For the moment, he’s still Frodo, but that’s about to change.
The flames and rock are all done brilliantly - not for a moment did I think that Mount Doom wasn't real. It's like a Middle Ages drawing of Hell - a boiling, burning place where nothing exists - there is no life in the Void.Also, some strong imagery here - Frodo standing straight at the edge of the rock. Quite the opposite of him slouching in the dirt! Also, notice how the 'wind'/'smoke' seems to revolve around Frodo and the Ring - they are now the central point of the situation.

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For the moment, he’s still Frodo, but that’s about to change.

Sam replays the part of Elrond, and so you know who that makes Frodo. It’s been noted by others the similarities of the Isildur and Frodo shots, and so I won’t elaborate on those. Sam can’t figure out why Frodo hesitates, and changes his plea from ‘throw it in’ to ‘let it go,’ which I find very nice.
The parallel between Elrond/Isildur and Sam/Frodo is good, and also foreshades to us how this situation will begin (though we are tricked into a different ending).

What I find interesting here is that when there are 'two' people present (Frodo/Sam and Isildur/Elrond) the journey fails - both times, the Ring survives. But when the third person arrives - Gollum - the Ring is destroyed. Is there a sort of Holy Trinity here - that it takes three to do something so spiritually powerful?

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Frodo continues to look upon the Ring, and its power finally takes over his soul.
The ultimate twist in the story. Just when we think that either the Ring will be destroyed or Frodo will be it becomes neither - both 'survive'.

Frodo's fall to the Ring is interesting - why does it happen? Does the Ring simply wear him down over the course of the journey - was it in some way inevitable? Or perhaps by that time he was too mentally weak to fight back due to his travels - had Shelob not stung him would he have held on enough? Or was it destiny that he failed - was it all planned out? If Frodo had just thrown it in then would Gollum have gone mad and killed him and Sam there? Or does he choose to do it - does he actually decide he wants the Ring? It's basically a toss-up between the Ring mentally overwhelming him and the Ring tempting him. We can't say which it is, in the book or movie.

Anyway, this moment is done brilliantly - the noise, music - everything just fades out until it's just Frodo, the Ring hovering before him and the whispering voices and the heartbeats. He's lost all contact with the real world; all rationality has left him.

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Just who made that chain, and does it come with a warranty?
I assume the Elves made it, as before Rivendell he keeps it in his shirt pocket but afterwards it is on a chain. Don't know about the warranty, however.

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Sam begs with his heart and cannot believe what he sees with his eyes.
As an aside, Sean Astin and Elijah Wood and Andy Serkis are all great actors and it's this scene that we see some of their best stuff. They convey all the emotion and energy and fury needed for this scene.

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Frodo slowly goes to place the Ring upon his finger.
Notice the wonderfully cruel smirk just before he vanishes.

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When he does, Sauron is instantly aware of him. His folly has been laid bare. The Nazgûl are summoned and speed towards Mount Doom, upon which doom will fall, along with a lot of lava. Frodo’s footprints can be seen walking towards Sam, which is silly as in what medium are they being shown? Dust? Then where are the ones from Frodo’s initial walk? Damp earth? Whatever.
I'll admit these shots are rather silly but we should allow for some artistic license.

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The angel of Light is here; where’s the Dark? Gollum creeps up behind Sam and returns the rock that Sam had flung his way earlier. Gollum figures out that Frodo is dancing about (the foxtrot?) and makes to attack him once more. The two begin to struggle, and Frodo starts to whine.

Although Sauron should be preoccupied with the events on Orodruin, his will continues to steer his orcs and warriors over at the Morannon. Aragorn fights a particularly scary-looking Battle Troll while Gollum and the Invisible Hobbit wrestle for possession of the Ring. Finally Gollum bites the finger bearing the Ring from Frodo, who immediately returns to our world, screaming in pain. Ouch!
There's some vague humour in Gollum flying about in mid-air; not quite sure why.

The Battle Troll was a neat monster and a nice change from the blank waves of generic Orcs. My only complaint would be that the Troll carries a mace but for some reason never just crushes Aragorn with it. As a strange aside, my brother never had any problems with all the impalings and beheadings, and yet he could never face Frodo's bloody hand beng bitten.

Notice how Gandalf seems to be in pain at this point - why? Is he spiritually connected with Frodo and able to feel all his pains, and so this one would hit him hardest? Or is it like what alatar suggested when we saw Gandalf clench his face when the Balrog arrived?

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Just as Frodo and Sam are now prone, Aragorn hits the dirt as well. Cousin Legolas tries to help.
Note the parallel - in both places, we have the 'conflicted hero' (Aragorn/Frodo) battling the 'obvious villain' (Troll/Gollum) whilst the 'obvious hero' (Legolas/Sam) cannot help.

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Gollum, now with the Ring, is the happiest person in Middle Earth.
The shot of the camera slowly zooming up through the Ring has got to be one of the best shots of the trilogy. And it's done to perfection - the tragic solo voice in the background, the feeling of total utter ruin, and there's some irony that whilst everyone else is in despair, Gollum is laughing happily. Also, this is the only time Gollum touches the Ring after he loses it to Bilbo, all those years ago.

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Frodo, now recovered, goes to get back his Precious.
The parallel between Smeagol and Deagol fighting for the Ring at the beginning and Frodo and Gollum fighting for the Ring at the end is clear to see, and a great way to bring this turbulent tale full-cricle. At the start and the end of it the Hobbits do the core work. They bring the Ring back into the world and later remove it.

Now of course this is a major change to the story. But I think it works well by itself - ultimately the fate of Middle Earth is not decided by Aragorn and the heroes but by the Hobbits (which is also why I'm glad Sauron didn't appear here).

As another music note, the quiet boys' choir theme that plays whenever the temptation of the Ring is there is used in a full, booming choral version here.

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Aragorn gets stomped by the Troll, but he uses his dagger to bite back.
Neat that it's Celeborn's dagger.

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Frodo and Gollum fight and fall over the edge. We see Gollum fall into the lava below. Though the temperature of the molten rock is about 2,100°F (1,140°C), Gollum takes a moment to melt. This was intentional, as I think that the directors/producer thought that Gollum sinking immediately just quickened the scene too much.
I believe it's meant to be the Ring keeping him alive - even then, it was prolonging his life, just by a few seconds. Also, it seems ironic that Gollum laughs with glee even when he falls to his death, but when Gollum hits the lava, he seems surprised, shocked - like he's only just waking up from insanity, and wandering how the Udun he got there. But by then it's far too late for any repenting and like the False Prophet he's burnt up in the lake of fire, still holding the Ring that cost him his life. Either way, a fitting end for a very fitting villain. RIP, Smeagol.

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Sam finds Mr. Frodo hanging over the edge, and he reaches down to help his master. Frodo again hesitates,
Does he feel suicidal from all the torment and pain, and just wants to end it there? Or is he so utterly twisted by the Ring that he'd be willing to die just for a chance to reach it again?

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and the words inscribed upon the Ring begin to glow.

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul
Just as it did in Frodo's fireplace, so long ago...

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Sam’s hope finally passes into Frodo, who then takes his hand. Note that, in the Fellowship of the Ring, it was Frodo that saved Sam from drowning in the Anduin, so we’ve come full circle there.
Aha! I was wondering whether someone would bring this up; very clever of you to do so. I'm going to extend it a little and say it also recalls Gollum pulling Frodo out of the Dead Marshes in TTT. In the first case, FOTR, he is the 'hero', who saves another. In TTT, we see his role as the typical hero diminished - it takes another to save him. But it pays off - in ROTK, the one he saved comes back and saves him. He goes up to down to somewhere comfortable in the middle.

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Finally, now that Frodo has made his decision, and has let the Ring go - also somewhat like Bilbo who let the One Ring behind on the floor of Bag End - the Ring dissolves and washes away.
Exactly. This scene is full of contrasts and counters to the earlier scenes that began this one, as it is the end of those scenes so it should reflect what happened in them.

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Sauron is none too happy. He gets a really bad case of eye-strain, and his minions finally take notice and begin to scatter. Barad-dûr, tower of adamant, crumbles, cracks and crashes into rubble, and the Eye that is Sauron goes down like a sinking ship and then explodes in a Ring of light. The Fellowship realizes that Frodo has completed the quest; the Ring, Sauron and all that he’d wrought is no more. A wave of light flows out of Mordor, the last breath of Sauron perhaps. His armies now flee and the (Middle) earth opens up and swallows them. Mount Doom explodes anew, and the Nazgûl burn as well.
It's a moment of total victory. The CGI is awesome here (well, more so than usual). The sheer emotional power is undeniable - we've reached the end; we've won. The odds have been surpassed. Again, I agree with Elladan and Elrohir on the reactions of te Fellowship - Merry and Gimli cheer whilst Gandalf just stands with tears in his eyes. Fantastic.

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Meanwhile, Sam and Frodo find new strength and try to put some distance between themselves and Sauron’s forge. Once outside, Frodo realizes that ‘he did it’ and that the Ring is no more. He and Sam await the inevitable as they sit on an island amidst the calamity of the mountain. As they wait for death to arrive, Frodo remembers the Shire. He has come through in possession of his soul. Sam has thoughts of Rosie, and he begins to weep of the wife and children that he will never see as, now, even Sam has no hope left.
This is perhaps the most beautiful part of ROTK. The quiet, sad reflection on what they've both saved and is lost is both tragic and fulfilling. Hearing the familiar names of the Shire in the burning climax of the story was so bittersweet. Wonderfully acted, yet again.

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The best line is then spoken (see above).
I agree. Also, my favourite version of the Fellowship theme plays here - soft, mournful but safe.

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Even knowing what’s going to happen, it’s sad as these two have given all that others may have fresh earth to till.
I'm hoping you got this from my previous SbS post, but that's just my own vanity.

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Fade to black. Is the movie over?
LOL, I remember the controversy that extended black screen caused at the time.

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Are these two hobbits dead? We see a long shot of them lying dead, perhaps, on their rock island, then eagles appear with Gandalf. The eagles grab and carry our two heroes away, and Frodo still lives as he flies above the ruins of Mount Doom, as if in a dream
Some quite clear Christian symbolism here - the pure sunlight shining from above onto the desolate, dark, burning wasteland and the two mortals being saved and carried by heavenly creatures (yes that's a pun) into the light.

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But are the eagles taking these two to the Houses of Healing, or to a place of honor in the tombs of Rath Dínen?
Oooh, I think I know the answer to this one...ahem.

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Once thread is left to post, and we to will have arrived at the end of all things…SbS
A truly bittersweet feeling, knowing that tomorrow will be the last time I check this forum to see the new scene. But I still look forward to it. Thanks for all of it, alatar.
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:28 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
“I’m glad to be with you, Samwise Gamgee…here at the end of all things.”
And I thought we'd never have this line as Frodo used half of it at the end of the Fellowship. Very pleased to hear it here.


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Lucky that that path was there, though it wasn’t put there for the exclusive use and benefit of one Sam Gamgee. For whom, actually, it was made and more importantly maintained, I’m not sure
but as it's the same as in the book, then I am happy.

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The Slinker beat them to the mountaintop, and from atop a rock jumps down upon Sam and Frodo.
I feel a bit cheated that this is the last 'extended' bit of the Trilogy, and PJ didn't add anything to the EE version from here

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Suddenly an Eagle appears and attacks the approaching Winged Nazgûl. Air support for the good guys!
I don't mind Pippin taking the immortal line that he only hears in the book. But a pity we don't see Pippin 'die' here as we think he does when we read the book for the first time. (I remember putting the book down and balling my eyes out for AGES when I thought he had died) - And I have put forward on one of the book threads a while back that he DID die, but was brought back to life after the Ring was destroyed........


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Anyway, Sam sees through the smoke that, at the very edge, at the Edge of Doom, Frodo stands and looks back. For the moment, he’s still Frodo, but that’s about to change.
I love the line "I'm here Sam" - one of the best delivered and 'creepiest' lines in the trilogy.

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Frodo slowly goes to place the Ring upon his finger.
I love the look on his face before he puts the Ring on. So creepy.


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Frodo’s footprints can be seen walking towards Sam, which is silly as in what medium are they being shown? Dust? Then where are the ones from Frodo’s initial walk? Damp earth? Whatever.
Picky!!!!

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Frodo and Gollum fight and fall over the edge.....Gollum takes a moment to melt.
As Sir Kohran states, the Ring was protecting Gollum.


The darkness of addiction, methinks. Frodo makes one attempt to take Sam’s helping hand, but blood keeps his hand from holding Sam’s. It seems, for a moment, that Frodo gives into despair, and would rather be dead with his Precious than alive without it. Sam’s hope finally passes into Frodo, who then takes his hand. Note that, in the Fellowship of the Ring, it was Frodo that saved Sam from drowning in the Anduin, so we’ve come full circle there.

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Finally, now that Frodo has made his decision, and has let the Ring go - also somewhat like Bilbo who let the One Ring behind on the floor of Bag End - the Ring dissolves and washes away.
I think the Scritwriter's mentioned this. It finally sank into the Lava once Frodo made his choice to give it up and live.

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The joy of Frodo’s success is quickly turned to sorrow for his friends as they realize that Frodo (and Sam) obviously sacrificed himself to complete the quest.
Yes, very well acted here. Frodo! Frodo!

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He and Sam await the inevitable as they sit on an island amidst the calamity of the mountain.....Even knowing what’s going to happen, it’s sad as these two have given all that others may have fresh earth to till.
Exactly. This still leaves a tear in my eye every time I watch this scene. I know they survive, but they go through the PAIN of thinking, nay knowing, they are going to die. So sad.

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The eagles grab and carry our two heroes away, and Frodo still lives as he flies above the ruins of Mount Doom, as if in a dream.
Notice there are 3 of the Eagles? The other one was for Gollum......
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:24 AM   #5
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Great observations, guys, and thanks for posting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Kohran
Let me just say that this is one of the greatest climaxes to a movie I've ever seen (not counting endings, though). It takes these characters we've followed for so long and finally brings them full-circle. Watching this scene in the cinema was mind-blowing; all these emotions and adrenaline at once. I'm going to go with Elladan and Elrohir here and say it was something Peter Jackson got RIGHT. Sure, there were a few changes to the scene, but I think they actually made it more powerful in terms of concluding what had come before (see below). This is perhaps the strongest set of scenes in the whole trilogy, just for the raw emotional power it supplies.
It definitely worked; however, having watched it more than a few times, the shine has worn off. Also note that when I'm writing these posts, I use the 'pause' button a lot, and so miss the swell created by the musical score.


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It does seem inconsistent. The only reason I can think of was that Merry and Pippin were strong and healthy whereas Sam was close to death, so his throwing ability would have been affected.
...and Gollum was the picture of health and vigor whereas those scrawny Uruks and orcs were frail as flowers. Maybe Gollum had a high constitution and made the saving throw.


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I kind of wish Sam could have said his rushed farewell to Frodo and maybe spoken furiously to Gollum instead of the wordless fight in the movies, but I suppose it would have slowed down the pace.
Agreed. That would have been nice. Sam 'gets his Master there,' yet initially doesn't go with him to finish the Quest.


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Notice that in the same shot, we see behind the Black Gate, and you can spot the Trolls that pulled the opening mechanism from TTT that alatar despised so much
You'd think that they'd have the day off in celebration of the 'last battle.'


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For some reason, I found this rough and tumble fighting far more brutal than anything the heroes did to the bad guys. Maybe it's because it's more realistic, so it's much 'closer to home'. Am I onto something here or just looking too deeply at this?
No, I completely understand. The kids see the battle of the Pelennor as a big CG video game whereas the death of Boromir (and, in the Potter films, Harry's friend via Voldemort) as scary and so we skip those scenes. It's personal; that's a real human (or boy) dying, not some person in a costume that gets hacked apart in three seconds and therefore is quickly forgotten.


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One thing I find odd here is that Sam never bothers to finish Gollum off - he just cuts him and leaves him there. In the book he pities him in his last moment with Gollum and spares him, but we don't get that here so it seems strange that he would leave such a dangerous foe alive and active.
Would have been nice to see that, when it came down to it, that Sam too could not kill Gollum in cold blood (i.e. that's why he's one of the good guys). Plus it would reinforce, yet again, Gandalf's message/words in Moria.


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I just love this bit. Gandalf's expression as he spots the moth and then looks up is brilliant. The Eagles swooping in and attacking was marvellous to see (though there should have been more of them). Notice that one of the Ringwraiths is knocked from his mount and falls into the battle.
"If a Nazgul falls in the woods..." Wonder if it was hurt, and therefore susceptible to an attack by the destaffed Gandalf?


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Why not?
I guess that from the West's point of view, Mount Doom always signals an event of some import (plague, war, the return of Sauron, etc). Just wonder if Sauron understood the possibility that on Mount Doom doom would fall.


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The flames and rock are all done brilliantly - not for a moment did I think that Mount Doom wasn't real. It's like a Middle Ages drawing of Hell - a boiling, burning place where nothing exists - there is no life in the Void.Also, some strong imagery here - Frodo standing straight at the edge of the rock. Quite the opposite of him slouching in the dirt! Also, notice how the 'wind'/'smoke' seems to revolve around Frodo and the Ring - they are now the central point of the situation.
Nice observation, and someone may see more in Frodo here.


Quote:
What I find interesting here is that when there are 'two' people present (Frodo/Sam and Isildur/Elrond) the journey fails - both times, the Ring survives. But when the third person arrives - Gollum - the Ring is destroyed. Is there a sort of Holy Trinity here - that it takes three to do something so spiritually powerful?
Very interesting observation! I personally do not see the Christian Trinity, but see that Chaos, in the form of Gollum, has entered the event and will tip the scales either to the good side or the bad. If Gollum falls, like he does, good wins. If he claims the Ring, it won't be long until Sauron retakes it - bad wins. Eru rolling dice, perhaps?


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The Battle Troll was a neat monster and a nice change from the blank waves of generic Orcs. My only complaint would be that the Troll carries a mace but for some reason never just crushes Aragorn with it. As a strange aside, my brother never had any problems with all the impalings and beheadings, and yet he could never face Frodo's bloody hand beng bitten.
A Troll all dressed up for battle yet not knowing how to dance. The mace, to me, clearly indicates that this may have originally been Sauron Incarnate. As we continue to come full circle, just who else had a mace like that?


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Does he feel suicidal from all the torment and pain, and just wants to end it there? Or is he so utterly twisted by the Ring that he'd be willing to die just for a chance to reach it again?
That's my guess. He, for the love of the Ring, gave up Sam.


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I'm hoping you got this from my previous SbS post, but that's just my own vanity.
But of course...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
but as it's the same as in the book, then I am happy.
Sure, but in the book Gandalf had his staff, promoted the 'attack Sauron first' plan, and Eomer actually had a role...


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I don't mind Pippin taking the immortal line that he only hears in the book. But a pity we don't see Pippin 'die' here as we think he does when we read the book for the first time. (I remember putting the book down and balling my eyes out for AGES when I thought he had died) - And I have put forward on one of the book threads a while back that he DID die, but was brought back to life after the Ring was destroyed........
Pippin's death would have muddied the story, however much I would have cheered. Merry just died, Aragorn fell off a cliff and returned, Gollum returned from the same, Frodo appeared to die with Gollum, Gandalf fell off a cliff and rejoined the Fellowship...I guess that the area in front of the Morannon didn't have a precipice where Pip could have fallen from then return from .


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Picky!!!!
Moi?!?


Quote:
Notice there are 3 of the Eagles? The other one was for Gollum......
Really? Interesting idea, though I thought that the third was Gandalf's mount.
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:48 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by alatar
Really? Interesting idea, though I thought that the third was Gandalf's mount.
re the Eagles. Notice Gandalf is on the first eagle, and that the third eagle is 'riderless' and indeed looks around for someone to pick up but finds no one. Therefore, and maybe it's mentioned in a book or on the DVD, but I do reckon Gandalf went with three Eagles for the 3 'hobbits'.........
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
re the Eagles. Notice Gandalf is on the first eagle, and that the third eagle is 'riderless' and indeed looks around for someone to pick up but finds no one. Therefore, and maybe it's mentioned in a book or on the DVD, but I do reckon Gandalf went with three Eagles for the 3 'hobbits'.........
Regardless of whether we speak of the books or the movies, just how does Gandalf know if there are any survivors - especially in the movies where we have Gandalf continually relying on others for information (Saruman, Aragorn)? Clearly Gandalf went to look for any survivors, and the eagles, in battle, flew out in their battle group (a 'wing') of three - one to look and the two others to guard the flanks.
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
Regardless of whether we speak of the books or the movies, just how does Gandalf know if there are any survivors - especially in the movies where we have Gandalf continually relying on others for information (Saruman, Aragorn)? Clearly Gandalf went to look for any survivors, and the eagles, in battle, flew out in their battle group (a 'wing') of three - one to look and the two others to guard the flanks.
I just assume that he wasn't giving up on the Hobbits and so went to Mount Doom in the faint hope they'd be alive. There's a bit in The Hobbit just like this - after Gandalf and the Dwarves escape from the Goblin caves, Gandalf is willing to go back just to find Bilbo (though Bilbo reappears right there anyway).
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:11 PM   #9
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LotR3 RotK Seq23

I didnt say that,
but I will repeat myself.

Sharku I guess thats a pretty good indication that Saruman wont make it to the final installment if theyre already giving away his name.
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alatar
What I find interesting here is that when there are 'two' people present (Frodo/Sam and Isildur/Elrond) the journey fails - both times, the Ring survives. But when the third person arrives - Gollum - the Ring is destroyed. Is there a sort of Holy Trinity here - that it takes three to do something so spiritually powerful?

Very interesting observation! I personally do not see the Christian Trinity, but see that Chaos, in the form of Gollum, has entered the event and will tip the scales either to the good side or the bad. If Gollum falls, like he does, good wins. If he claims the Ring, it won't be long until Sauron retakes it - bad wins. Eru rolling dice, perhaps?
You could read a little about Gurdjieff esoteric Christianity...
The third person is a force that is invisible and sometimes manifest itself .
Gollum is here because Mercy has win Justice both with Bilbo both with Frodo.
May be Isildur fail because he believed Sauron fail because of his family not seeing that was the Alliance that win him... So he believed right, an act of justice, to keep the ring as a "record" . Eru is not rolling dice, but as the Oracle in Matrix , he put his faith in Neo (Frodo/sam) but he cannot alter the number of results of dices ,it goes further ihs possibility ! Iluvatar could create Elves and men ,then he could just try to awaken them ,not rule them.
He could give some light to show the ground,but is up to them to find the path...

Last edited by alatar; 06-01-2011 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:53 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by aiea View Post
May be Isildur fail because he believed Sauron fail because of his family not seeing that was the Alliance that win him... So he believed right, an act of justice, to keep the ring as a "record" . Eru is not rolling dice, but as the Oracle in Matrix , he put his faith in Neo (Frodo/sam) but he cannot alter the number of results of dices ,it goes further ihs possibility ! Iluvatar could create Elves and men ,then he could just try to awaken them ,not rule them.
He could give some light to show the ground,but is up to them to find the path...
Interesting thoughts, aiea.

With three, you can get some different trilogies/trinities. Instead of thinking that we have three hobbits, consider that we have Frodo, who has a choice to make, and Gollum and Sam to represent the other viewpoints. You have Gollum the murderous addict, and Sam the faithful who voluntarily gave back the Ring.

Which did Frodo want to become?
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