Gondor, Rohan and Lorien

[The Mouth of Sauron]

LOTR reveals that in both Gondor and Rohan there was very little knowledge of Lorien and even less trust .

Surely however, particularly in the case of Rohan, geography was against this ignorance and fear . The northern border of Rohan was the River Limlight , no more than 100-125 miles from Lorien . Surely over the 500 years of Rohan's existence before the War of the Ring contact would have been established ?

They were after all on the same side .

In some of Tolkien's writings Rohan has dealings with the Beornings, men in the Vale of Anduin and the Woodmen in Mirkwood so surely there must have been some dealings with Lorien .

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

well we are told in the UT that even though Galadriel seemingly assisted Eorl with safe passage, he did not trust that she was a friend. . . (when he came to Gondors aid)
Lorien was feard by both Rohan and Gondor, more or less everybody avoided it, like if it had been a land under the controll of orcs.

It is hard to get contact with a people you are afraid of and do not wish to see.

[Raynor]

Moreover, Galadriel was using magic, something that Men apparently weren't capable of (cf Letter #155) and something that they did fear; they also weren't capable of discerning between magic done by the elves and the "deceits of the enemy", as stated in the Mirror of Galadriel chapter. On top of all this, we have Wormtongue whispering in Theoden's ears against Lorien (most certainly, Imo); Denethor could have extended his despise of Gandalf to his ally in Lorien - plus he might have been induced to doing that by the palantir that was controlled by Sauron.

[Lalwendë]

Really good question! Not least because these divisions between Men and Elves show just how far apart they had grown in a mistrustful world, possibly due to the threat of Mordor. Sauron's might could only have grown seeing Men and Elves grow even more separate, bet he was rubbing his hands to see it.

I think if you look at what some of the ordinary Rohirrim and Gondorians we meet in the book say, it's clear they were all suspicious, even superstitious about the Elves who lived in Lorien. The Rohirrim have plenty of old tales, fairy tales even, about Lorien, but they do seem to more quickly accept that it is not dangerous or an enemy once Theoden has been won round/cured. They seem to be more open to new ideas, but they are a new culture, still in the process of growing in the place they've found. Whereas the Gondorians are an old culture, and seem to ahve drawn in on themselves a lot more - understandable being so close to Mordor, but possibly also influenced by Denethor who has grwon increasingly suspicious.

Either way, both cultures are quite insular out of necessity, just because they have to expend so many energies in self-protection. I've mentioned this idea before, but this time I'm going to include Lorien in that criticism, as they too are incredibly insular! It's not just the fault of Men!

[Boromir88]

I've always wondered what the difference with Rivendell is. Even though if we eventually see Boromir not accept and believe what the Council decided. But of course he went to Rivendell to get answers to the dream, and he said he came since Elrond was known to be wise and give good advice. I just wonder what the difference in belief is to go to Rivendell, then vehemently refusing to go to Lorien. Is it perhaps because of the fact that Rivendell is a known place for Council where all races go if they are seeking advice, so it would be a more welcomed place?

[Raynor]

I've always wondered what the difference with Rivendell is.

Elrond was more active in his fight against evil (or, at least, more known - seeing that one could perceive that Lorien is protected by singing in the trees); he fough directly against Sauron in Eregion and at the last alliance, he sends his sons into battle, he houses the dunedain, and, very importantly, is descending from human himself. The very name and description of the Homely House, as told in A short rest, the Hobbit, quoted in the Many Meetings, FotR:

His house was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all

seems to suggest that this was a haven for not only the resistance, but for visitors too.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I've always wondered what the difference with Rivendell is. Even though if we eventually see Boromir not accept and believe what the Council decided. But of course he went to Rivendell to get answers to the dream, and he said he came since Elrond was known to be wise and give good advice. I just wonder what the difference in belief is to go to Rivendell, then vehemently refusing to go to Lorien. Is it perhaps because of the fact that Rivendell is a known place for Council where all races go if they are seeking advice, so it would be a more welcomed place?

Originally Posted by Raynor

Elrond was more active in his fight against evil (or, at least, more known - seeing that one could perceive that Lorien is protected by singing in the trees); he fough directly against Sauron in Eregion and at the last alliance, he sends his sons into battle, he houses the dunedain, and, very importantly, is descending from human himself.

You do get the impression that Rivendell has always been a place which was more welcoming to other races, even though it remains hidden (see Boromir's wanderings in the wilderness, though I think he'd found himself a really good Holiday Inn somewhere and was holed up with some beer having a good time on expenses ).

Anyway, Elrond clearly does have lots of links with Men in particular, and its not unlikely that either Denethor or Faramir would have known of the Last Homely House, maybe even from Gandalf in Faramir's case.

[Boromir88]

Yes, I think it comes down to a matter of understanding. What do Men do when they don't understand something? They either try to break it down, find out what it's made of and master it, or they create whacked out stories and try to avoid the place as much as possible.

I definitely got a sense that Rivendell was a place that Men (of Gondor) knew and understood it to be:

'Of these words we could understand little, and we spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters.'

So, Rivendell was at least a place that Men could understand and knew about.

Where Lorien was a place where nobody had been, they thought of it as a mystery, they couldn't understand, so it must have been under the power of some dark Witch and should be avoided at all costs.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I've always wondered what the difference with Rivendell is.

It is only that men fear powerful women...

[narfforc]

I'm sorry, wasn't Lorien ruled jointly by a Lord and Lady, or has Celeborn vanished?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I'm sorry, wasn't Lorien ruled jointly by a Lord and Lady, or has Celeborn vanished?

That actually brought an interesting point to my mind: Does Celeborn appear in any of the rohanian fairy stories?

(Just for the sake of clarity, my point was that Galadriel was a personification of the Golden wood and an inevitable person in the tales, but Celeborn...?)

[narfforc]

Galadriel may wear the Ring, but she says: For the Lord of the Galahrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. It has always bugged me the way that Celeborn has been made to look somehow inferior to Galadriel, just because she has the ring. These two are equals. At their parting in Lorien Galadriel tells the Fellowship that the gifts are from both of them, later upon meeting Eomer, Aragorn says: But we have passed through Lothlorien, and the gifts and favour of the Lady go with us. This I think is a mistake by Tolkien, it should have been: the gifts and favour of the Lord and Lady go with us. It seems that everyone that passes through Lorien is somehow blind or ignorant of the fact that there is also a very powerful Lord there also, he seems to have been pushed into the: Oh he's only there to father Celebrian mode. I am sure that men knew of Celeborn, he had not always been at Lorien, he had dwelt in Doriath, Lindon and Eregion, to these places men and dwarves had access at times, I feel his existance would have been known. When the Rohirrim, whether in the time Eorl or Theoden speak of the Lady of The Golden Wood, I think they speak almost in semi-reverence, similar to calling on Elbereth without having to mention Manwe.

There is no doubt that Galadriel is very powerful, and it is not all the doing of Nenya. I would like to add that not all men fear powerful women, anymore than all women love only powerful men.

[Aiwendil]

Narfforc wrote:

At their parting in Lorien Galadriel tells the Fellowship that the gifts are from both of them, later upon meeting Eomer, Aragorn says: But we have passed through Lothlorien, and the gifts and favour of the Lady go with us. This I think is a mistake by Tolkien, it should have been: the gifts and favour of the Lord and Lady go with us.

Is it really a mistake? I'm wary of saying "Tolkien got it wrong" when one finds a piece of evidence that doesn't support one's own view.

Certainly, it is true that Galadriel calls Celeborn "the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth". But it's also impossible to ignore the fact that, at least to a great majority of readers, Celeborn simply does not come across that way.

Either:
1. Tolkien failed to adequately characterize Celeborn in the story or
2. Celeborn is not as wise or insightful as Galadriel.

But I don't think that it's necessarily a reflection on any faults of Celeborn if one views Galadriel as the more important of the pair - for Galadriel is said (in a text found in UT) to have been the greatest of the Eldar in Aman, save only Feanor.

[Boromir88]

Aiwenedil, yes the UT does say that about Galadriel, but it appears she evolved, or became that way in Tolkien's story. Galadriel and Celeborn was a changing story in Tolkien's thoughts, and it appears that speaking strictly of the UT I see no reason to dispute this:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.~UT, Galadriel and Celeborn

However:

There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.~Preface to Galadriel and Celeborn

The Galadriel and Celeborn story went under several 'refashionings' and their characters became more important later on in Tolkien's mind. So, I think when we look at The Silmarillion or LOTR there may be inconsistancies, because the story of Galadriel and Celeborn constantly underwent changes.

So, I think eventually in Tolkien's latest writings Galadriel did become (to him) the greatest of the Noldor, save for Feanor. However, I think if we look back and the Silmarillion than I think we can question whether Galadriel was the greatest save for Feanor. She clearly was strong and powerful in the Silmarillion, but she wasn't as powerful as what she would eventually become in Tolkien's latest writings on the subject.

narfforc, I do think Celeborn goes under-appreciated, at times I think he's even forgotten. I would believe save for Cirdan he is one of the oldest Elves on Middle-earth during the Third Age, he's got to be right up there with Galadriel I'm thinking. But, I think we can't take Galadriel saying that he was the wisest of the Elves in Middle-earth. Tolkien's characters are liable to be mis-informed or wrong, and not necessarily in line with what he thought. I think Galadriel was just sweet-talking him or buliding up his confidence. There's no doubt he is one of the wisest, and oldest, during this time, but the wisest...I don't know about that.

[narfforc]

Yes I think that you are right Aiwendil, Tolkien fails to give us the real Celeborn in LotR. I am not saying Celeborn we get is without fault, this can be seen in his rebuffle of Gimli and his second guessing of Gandalfs reasonings, what I am saying is that we don't see the Celeborn of History, The Great Warrior-lord and leader that he is, and I think this is mainly because all eyes have been drawn towards a ring. If the historical Celeborn is shown, then it is in the older tales before any rings are made, and we can only see that now, many years after LotR was first published, furthermore at what point did this historical Celeborn come into existance:

1. Was Celeborn already in the mind of Tolkien before LotR was published

2. Is the Celeborn of Sil/UT a storyline added after Tolkien included him in LotR.

Tolkien continued to work on The Silmarillion after LotR so this could be possible.

Cross posted with Boromir88.

P.S Yes they say love is blind Boromir88

[drigel]

Yes, I think it comes down to a matter of understanding. What do Men do when they don't understand something?

So, Rivendell was at least a place that Men could understand and knew about.

I always looked at that somewhat the same, but a little different. Rivendell was the home of Elrond Half Elven. More ties and more responsibilities with mortals. But I always thought that Rivendell, as the third age drew on, had less official contact with Gondor, leading to none at all. So, as far as I read it:
Rivendell - friendly (Last Homely House, etc), run by an Elf Loremaster, but a hidden location (in general terms, especially by the later 3rd age).
Lorien - not hidden, but avoided. Im sure men of Gondor and Rohan (and other inhabitants) knew exactly where the physical location of Lorien was. A golden forest would be hard to miss. But, it was an alien (mallorn) place, and an elvish kingdom ruled by a Queen\sorceress etc. Travellers would turn away as soon as they saw it on the horizon (throwing salt over their should as the did). Plus from a Rohirric POV, Lorien was on the other side of Fangorn, another ancient wood, not enchanted but just as dangerous and avoided.

I think we can question whether Galadriel was the greatest save for Feanor

Yup. But I always reconcile that quote (and it's contradictions) in UT by interpreting that as meaning the greatest Noldo still living by the 3rd age (but isnt Elrond in that category as well? At least technically?). Traditionally, I would think that there were a few Noldor buried and under the sea considered greater. But perhaps, if she was the greatest save for Feanor, it may be possible that her role in ME was such that it wasnt demonstrated so readily, or obviously. She was as ambitious, but mabye not as mission driven, so her deeds werent as documented in song.

[Thinlómien]

I've got the impression that none of the Rohanian tales that tell of Lórien tells of celeborn, they are very Galadriel-centered. Now why is that? Any thoughts?

The only answer that comes to my mind is that mysterious woman in power is a more intriguing subject to people in ME of that time than a mysterious man in power... People were not used to woman rulers and the thought inspired their imagination. Or maybe they had heard tales of Galadriel's "magic".

[narfforc]

I don't think the Rohirrim knew much at all about Lorien in a real sense, as for their tales they wrote next to nothing down, most tales were of the bardic tradition. I think most of what they knew would have been rumour and lies spread by both Sauron and Saruman. The words Witch and Sorceress were used to scare potential allies, this is how Galadriel was known to many, for the ring was with her not Celeborn, and the Enemy feared her. As for not knowing female rulers, I say again she was a co-ruler, Lorien was ruled by a Lord and Lady, and both Rohan and Gondors Kings had Queens all through their history.

However in saying all this, females rulers are pretty short on the ground in Tolkiens works, I am uncertain as to why he does not give more credence to them. I am sure he would of known of the figures of Boudicca and Medb of Connaught. Badb, Macha and Morrigan are the Irish Goddesses of War, there is also Nemain. Many mythologies/legends have female rulers/warriors.

Galadriel herself is said to be as good as any on a battlefield, yet Tolkien fails to give her to us, we are left with a calm, serene almost priestess figure staring in a bowl of water, she has been portrayed as The Oracle and not the Warrior (in LotR), what exactly is this power she is so powerful with.

[Raynor]

Galadriel herself is said to be as good as any on a battlefield, yet Tolkien fails to give her to us, we are left with a calm, serene almost priestess figure staring in a bowl of water, she has been portrayed as The Oracle and not the Warrior (in LotR), what exactly is this power she is so powerful with.

Then again, there is this interesting passage in the RotK:

Originally Posted by , March 25th, 3019, The Tale of Years

They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

It could reffer actually to her army, but it does leave open some interpretations.

[Boromir88]

To add onto Raynor's post, later on in Tolkien's writings he does show us more of a 'battle-prowess' with Galadriel that may not have been noticeable in The Silmarillion or LOTR:

Her mother-name was Nerwen 'man-maiden,' and she grew tall beyond the measure of even the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.~Home XII, Late Writings

Even after the merciless assault upon the Telerin and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in the defense of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.~ibid

A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remember the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth."~The Silmarillion, of the Rings of Power

[narfforc]

I remember those passages, however I was talking of LotR (the story). If nothing had been published after Tolkien died we would still know little of Galadriel, and it is a shame we do not see more of this real Galadriel in his published works. The same of course can be said of Celeborn, he too in some accounts fought in those same wars as Galadriel.

I hope I am not intruding by jumping in. I'm new to this sort of thing and bring with me only my love of LOTR and other JRRT writings.

The theme I am gleaning from this thread is a lament that Celeborn seems to be sitting in the back seat and a wonder that Galadriel is held up so high. The Silmarillion answers this. Galadriel was a High Elf and JRRT seemed obsessed with them. Celeborn is a Wood Elf, of one of the clans that never even answered the call to go overseas, if memory serves me right. He is very old and has been around a long time, but his entire existence has been in Middle Earth.

Galadriel, on the other hand, was born in Valinor. She knew life in the undying lands amidst the two trees. She joined the rebellious ones and fled to Middle Earth. She had high ambitions of being a big fish in a little pond. In the beginning, she was a warrior, willing to fight to be that big fish.

However, by the time we meet her in LOTR, the battle has pretty much gone out of her. She is struggling against the curse the Valar placed upon those Elves who rebelled and fled to Middle Earth - that they would weary of it. The ring of power she wore kept that weariness at bay - but it cost her. Her's is by far the more dramatic story. I think that's why she gets more press than Celeborn.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Well, Celeborn was actually a Sinda (Grey-Elf), closely related to Elu Thingol of Doriath. This makes him one of the Eldar, not the Avari, but ultimately still one of the Moriquendi. (Sorry, I just enjoy being able to throw terms like those around and actually know what they mean.) But yeah, your point still holds that Galadriel certainly had more inherent power than Celeborn did. And I think that's why she's usually considered the dominant member in the marriage.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think we should be carefull not going off topic. . . This could turn into a discusion about Galadriel and Celeborns powers/might.

However a thing I think could be fun to include in the discusion is Thranduil and the elves of northern Mirkwood. (if The Mouth of Sauron does not mind)

They seemed to interact with men more than everybody else though mostly through trade. . . Their Kingdom seemed closed like Lothlorien, not a place you go for council. But you are not afraid of them and even trade with them. How come this elven people are different from the others. . .

[The Mouth of Sauron]

A good point .

My worry about the Rohirrim's lack of contact with races to the north remains - the Limlight, Rohan's northern border was only 125 miles from Lorien and 150 miles from Mirkwood . Surely over the 500 years of Rohan's history a few stalwart Riders of Rohan would have established contact with races to the north .

Or perhaps I should say maintained contact - after all the Eothed CAME from the north .

[Annatar!]

I use a terrible analogy here... forgive me.
One does not walk into Buckingham Palace the home of the Queen of England. They view it from afar with awe; an emotion that implies many things i.e respect, trepidation and yes even fear.
However they can quite easily 'tour' the Houses of Parliament where (apparent) good counsel is held, and decisions are made by those who we (apparently) should look towards in times of need.
Galadriel is the most noble elf alive during the 3rd age, the period of time that this thread discusses, and yes i believe the most powerful (power does not always imply 'warrior' status, even though she has demonstrated her prowess in this manner in previous ages. The most powerful man in our world has never been physically involved in any of the conflicts of our time! {and i am in NO WAY comparing Galadriel to our current world leaders; Eru forbid!})
Elrond is the wisest in lore; the governing of Middle-Earth, the upholding of and respect for relationships between Elves and Men (except when his daughter's concerned lol).
To me it seems quite natural for Lorien to be 'overlooked' as a place of friendship and looked at as rather a place of awe, and for Imladris to be the place where one goes for counsel etc.
Ironic that the one place where the most potent enemy of Sauron lies is the one place so many men fear to tread!