Reincarnation

[Celebuial]

I know this has been mentioned in other places, but I don't think it has really been discussed in-depth (sorry if it has, but I couldn't find it!)

I'm confused.... Is Glorfindel in LOTR the Glorfindel from The Sil? Surely if he was he wouldn't have just been left behind to help guard Imladris when the Nine Walkers set out? More to the point:

The whole idea of reincarnation in Arda confuses me. I have only read the first two volumes of HoME so far, so bear with me, but I can't seem to find much that makes sense without being contradictory. I haven't read the letters either, so you may be able to see why I'm so confused.

At first I thought that reincarnation wasn't possible in Arda. Then I thought it was possible for Elves who have been slain or who have died of grief. Then I read the Story of Beren and Luthien.

For about three years now I've been completly flumoxed by the whole idea. I think it's a shme that I don't at all understand this concept as I think it's one of the really intersting little things that you can find in Tolkien's work.

I would really appreciate it if one of you omniscient Tolkien experts could shed some light on this for me: I'm worried that if I don't understand it sometime, I may end up loosing sleep, and I'm certainly missing out!

[Aiwendil]

Tolkien changed his mind about Elvish reincarnation (as he did about so many things). The earlier conception was that an Elvish spirit ('fea') could be reborn in one of his or her descendants. The child would have the soul, the mind, and the memories of the ancestor.

At some point, however, Tolkien decided that this was not workable, because in effect the parents of the reborn Elf would be cheated out of having a new child. Iluvatar wouldn't allow this. Rebirth didn't fit with the overarching metaphysics he had developed for his world. So he replaced the concept of rebirth with one of reincarnation. The spirit of an Elf, he supposed, retains an exact memory of its body even after death. The Valar, then, are capable of creating a new body for the spirit, identical to the old.

The short answer about Glorfindel of Rivendell is that he is indeed the same as the Glorfindel of Gondolin who died in combat with a Balrog. That this conception was present from the time of the writing of LotR is clear from a note in the outlining for the Rivendell chapter, something to the effect of "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin", I believe. Many years later, in fact shortly before his death, Tolkien considered the character of Glorfindel in two essays - and though he does not start with it as an assumption, he does come to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same as Glorfindel of Gondolin.

The note on Glorfindel from the writing of LotR is found, I believe, in HoMe VI (unless my memory is deceiving me; it could be VII). The texts dealing with the metaphysical issues of rebirth and reincarnation are found in HoMe X. The late essays on Glorfindel are in HoMe XII.

I hope that was helpful. I definitely recommend continuing with the HoMe series; there are some complexities that I glossed over in my summary.

[Celebuial]

Thank you so much!!!!!! That certainly helped a lot! I will definitely continue with HoME. Thanks again.

[Nukapei]

This is something I have often wondered, too. And having access only to The Hobbit, LotR, and the Sil, it's not something I've been able to rightly answer! I hope it's okay to continue this discusson . . .

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The spirit of an Elf, he supposed, retains an exact memory of its body even after death. The Valar, then, are capable of creating a new body for the spirit, identical to the old.

So, does this mean that all Elves are reincarnated? The way you worded this makes it sound like the Valar only do this some of the time! And if so, are they reincarned into Valinore? What happens after The Undying Lands fill with reincarned Elves? Does anyone know this, or is it just something Tolkien never touched on?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

So, does this mean that all Elves are reincarnated? The way you worded this makes it sound like the Valar only do this some of the time! And if so, are they reincarned into Valinore? What happens after The Undying Lands fill with reincarned Elves? Does anyone know this, or is it just something Tolkien never touched on?

I was talking about this just the other day! Presumably, many Elves died and passed to the Halls of Mandos, where they are given the choice to be 'reborn'; yet not all are given this choice, it should be noted.

Of those who are reborn, I wonder whether they 'reappear' in Valinor or Middle Earth? Do they have a choice? The example of Glorfindel means that either they can be reborn in Middle Earth, and therefore have a choice, or that there is a Straight Road out of Valinor.

The idea that there could be a choice got me thinking a little more. Obviously we only see a small proportion if the Elves who ever lived in Middle Earth, but a fairly significant number of those die, so it might be expected that we would have seen many more names than Glorfindel's appearing again after their deaths. So why don't we see this? I came up with two answers.

Firstly, it could be that an Elf who is reborn either simply cannot or must choose to return to Middle Earth. Perhaps their experience in Valinor affects them so that they wish to remain and not return to Middle Earth. Or the experience of death may be intensely troubling so that they prefer to remain in the Undying Lands until such a time as their kin return to them there. I do wonder if Osanwe works across the sea (maybe not since the breaking of the world), as if it did then physical separation might not be quite so hard to bear.

My second answer is quite a haunting thought. Those who die and pass to the Halls of Mandos may learn something once there, and they may choose not to be reborn in a physical body. Obviously they can never pass beyond the confines of the world like Men, but this is the closest they could come to that, and it may be a welcome experience for some (and Elves do tire of life and retire from it) to forsake physical existence.

They may indeed learn that to be reborn can be a troubling thing in itself - having to take up a life where it left off, coupled with regaining a family and partner who might have grieved for them - after all, they would not know if a person would be granted the gift of being reborn or even if they would accept it.

It fascinates me to think that Elves may learn something in the Halls of Mandos, something about their nature which is so profound that they are likely to choose not to return to Middle Earth or even to be reborn at all. That's one of Tolkien's 'wow' moments to me.

[Nukapei]

That makes sense. Where did you get all this, if you don't mind me asking!

[Lalwendë]

Volume 10 of HoME, Morgoth's Ring, includes a lot of really fascinating stuff about the Elves, their relationships and 'deaths'. I can recommend that one in particular if you are interested in some of the stranger ideas of Tolkien's. Even so, there's much that still has never been published and occasionally is released as articles in journals, such as the Osanwe-Kenta, about thought transference.

But a lot of my ideas leading on from my reading were conjoured up by talking to davem about it last week! I expounded my theories while he listened patiently.

[Aiwendil]

Lalwende wrote:

I was talking about this just the other day! Presumably, many Elves died and passed to the Halls of Mandos, where they are given the choice to be 'reborn'; yet not all are given this choice, it should be noted.

True. Also, there are Elves who refuse the summons to Mandos and exist as disembodied spirits (as is discussed in HoMe X).

Of those who are reborn, I wonder whether they 'reappear' in Valinor or Middle Earth? Do they have a choice? The example of Glorfindel means that either they can be reborn in Middle Earth, and therefore have a choice, or that there is a Straight Road out of Valinor.

When it was rebirth, I expect that the Elf's fea could be reborn into the line of any of his or her descendants, wherever they might dwell.

With regard to the later reincarnation, however, I have always been under the impression that this takes place in Aman. In the "Glorfindel" essays in HoMe XII this seems to be taken for granted - Tolkien speculates on when Glorfindel could have returned from Aman to Middle-earth. My impression is that this return is a kind of special case; most Elves who are reincarnated remain in the West.

[Findegil]

I only want to add that in the Glorfindel essay Tolkien came to the conclusion that a transfer to middle-earth after the downfall of Numenor would make Glorfindel a case much to special. That implies for me that after the Akalabeth the Elves could not return at all. The journey to the west was a on-way ticket for them - equally if the used the ship on the Strait Way or Qalvanda, the Road of Death.

My impression was that most of the Elves in Mandos desired a reincarnation. Only a small minority did refuse the life in a body. As one reason for such a refusal was named a second death, so that only very few Elves were reincarnated after a second death, which in it self happen seldom, since most reincarnated Elves staid in Valinor.

The reason for this was in part the fact that not many Elves were reincarnated immediately or early after their death. Most of them especially the well know Noldor-princes would have to wait at least until the rebellion was over. Thus when they were reincarnated most of their relatives were back in Valinor or upon Tol Eressea so that their would not be a good reason to make the perilous journey to Middle-Earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[davem]

Don't know if I'll be taking this off topic, but Iwonder whether Elvish reincarnation isn't due to their relationship with the stuff of Arda. They are bound within the Circles of the World, certainly, but it seems their fea are by nature bound to their hroa. In other words it is natural for them to be incarnate, & so, unnatural for them not to be bodied.

Obviously this would have been a problem for a Christian - as it wouldn't have been for a Hindu, Buddhist, Jain or Pagan - as reincarnation is not accepted within Christianity.

So, Tolkien had a problem. His desire was to explore the nature & meaning of death for humans, to explain the love of the world in those destined to leave it, to account for the fact that in a universe created by a loving deity death is inevitable. He chose to explore the idea of death by placing mortal humans in a world alongside immortal Elves. He also sought to exlore what it would be like to live forever in the world. Perhaps it was his natural pessimism that lead him to concieve increasingly of this as a 'fate worse than death'. His Elves, like his Valar & Maiar, cannot escape the world, the fact of immortality within the circles of the world. This effectively requires either that their bodies be as immortal & impervious to harm as their spirits, or that they should 'reincarnate' in some form if their bodies were damaged beyond repair. The first option would make it impossible to introduce any real tragic element into their stories, as they would never suffer loss or seperation or grief - it would also risk turning his Legendarium from tragedy to farce.

So, Elves would by nature wish, or be drawn to, reincarnate, to be 'earthed' again. Miriel was seen as highly unusual, even 'unnatural' because she did not wish to reincarnate after the death of her hroa - it wasn't the 'done thing'. So we can assume that any Elves who did not wish to reincarnate were seen in a similar light.

Doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that all Elves were either consciously or unconsciously drawn to the West? Certainly we see this desire being awakened in Legolas, a Sindarin Elf who had spent his whole existence in Middle-earth. If this is the case then any Elf who 'died' & passed into Mandos would feel that they were 'Home', & have no desire to leave & return into Middle-earth. We have to remember that the Elves sought to escape from 'change', found it 'unnatural', & wished to halt it to the extent that they could. Middle-earth was a place of inevitable change, Valinor was not. The 'Undying Lands' are also 'Unchanging' Lands. They are, from what we can gather from the books, a place where change either does not happen, or where it is so slow as to be unnoticeable, even to Elves.

So, what attraction would Middle-earth hold for Elves, particularly after the dominion of Men? It seems Glorfindel returned for a specific purpose, & we can assume that it was a sacrifice on his part.

Tolkien's last ideas are interesting, but like all his later writings we cannot assume that they would have been his final thoughts on the matter. His problem was the essential nature of the Elves & specifically the nature of their relationship with the matter of Arda. Their innate love of Arda would almost require that they be incarnate, as this would be a kind of consumation between lover & beloved, a sort of 'marriage' between spirit & Matter - which could not easily be put assunder & would be seen as 'wrong' if it did take place - a kind of 'divorce' - it would seem almost to be a case of 'what Eru has joined together, let not Elf put assunder...

Men have a more transitory relationship with their bodies, because death is part of their nature. They are opposite to the Elves, in that for them physical immortality is against their nature, & was never meant to be. Hence the sufferings which result from attempts to attain this immortality. But the question Tolkien never properly answered was where this desire came from. HE suggested that Morgoth had made death fearful, but I'm not sure that works - why would Men fear something that was innate to them?

[Lalwendë]

I've just had another look at HoME 10 & 12, so I've a few more things to add. These might be of particular interest to anyone who hasn't got a copy of these volumes.

About Glorfindel. Tolkien was keen to 'fit' his two lives into the tale somehow, and at first he had Glorfindel travel to Middle Earth with Gandalf, thus explaining their strong bond, and interestingly, explaining why the WK was so afraid of Glorfindel. Then he revised this and had Glorfindel return to ME during the Second Age, before the downfall of Numenor to be of assistance to Gil-Galad and Elrond. Tolkien could not have Glorfindel simply be a name that was used twice as it was too linguistically unusual, and he also had a problem that Glorfindel had been one of the rebelling Noldor, and thus it did not fit with the rules that he should be allowed to return to Valinor and hence be reborn; he gets around this by Glorfindel's good deeds and sacrifice in his first incarnation.

So, it does seem that Glorfindel is a special case, or at least an unusual one, in that he returns to Middle Earth.

Yet it is still profound that the Elves, once reincarnated, remain in Valinor. It is, following on from davem's words, fascinating that they could have had a particular bond with Valinor as a land, even those such as Legolas who had never been there.

In Volume 10 there is a much about the 'houseless fea', i.e. the spirit without a body, and also about those who did not reincarnate and remained in the Halls of Mandos. I bookmarked this some time ago intending to do a thread on the subject but I'll try and be brief and just add some excellent quotes!

About Elves being 'bound' to the land:

The others remained, by desire or command, fear unbodied, and they could only observe the unfolding of the Tale of Arda from afar, having no effect therein. For it was a doom of Mandos that only those who took up life again might operate in Arda...

About the refusal to be reborn:

...it was held that the refusal to return to life, after repose in Mandos, was a fault, showing a weakness or lack of couarge in the fea.

It seems that those who have never been to Valinor are more likely to refuse the call to go to Mandos (which means that even they must be allowed to go, just as the Eldar do), and that many of the Noldor also refused to go. This then must mean that there are many 'houseless spirits' in Middle Earth. Tolkien mentions that they are not all benevolent:

...wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that they once knew. Not all of these are kindly or untainted by the Shadow.

This really is a fascinating part of HoME and I recommend it. It goes on to say many interesting things about Sauron and the fea, if you aren't already tempted.

Clearly, the Elves are expected to be incarnate, and to be denied this is seen as a terrible punishment (akin to being a ghost, able to see and hear loved ones but not to participate in their lives). It is also clearly dangerous to be 'houseless' in Middle Earth, as it seems that figures such as Sauron exploited this, and perhaps, also exploited the character weakness of some of those Elves who had decided to rebel by refusing to go to Mandos. Makes me wonder exactly what some of his minions were composed of...and it has made me think again about Old Man Willow. And to be houseless also seems to be a kind of sin for an Elf, frowned upon, and faintly wrong.

Yet for those who die twice it does not seem to quite as wrong to refuse to be reborn into a third incarnation, so perhaps there is some respite for some of the Elves after all. Or does this tell us something about the nature of violent death and trauma, that it is so dreadful that even an Elf, tied to eternal existence, would rather be houseless and a 'sinner' than risk going through that trauma again?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Glorfindel was a golden-haired elf, which I take it relates him to Gildor Inglorien, who is of the house of Finarfin, which is renowned for golden haired elves like Finrod, Galadriel, and such. He managed to knock a Balrog off a cliff ... but went down along with it, same as Gandalf and Ecthelion ...

And then, in Valinor it seems he befriended Olorin (Gandalf) very closely.

If I'm not mistaken, Gandalf pleaded with Glorfindel to return to Middle Earth and help out against the menace of Sauron.

Only elves who have seen the blessed realm, which still radiated with the light of the two trees, even though they're dead, have that ethereal glow about them ... and Frodo really saw the true spirit, when the Morgul blade had almost taken him ... he also saw the Nazgul, which indicates that the Nazgul got to the same spirit realm that elves can co-habitate along with the physical world, through some pretty perverse means. But that's a whole new topic.

He came with the Istari ... I have no idea why I think a ship with the Ithryn Luin, and possibly Saruman came first, and Gandalf and Radagast came later, but I believe Glorfindel was on the first ship (again ... I can't back that up at the moment). I can't remember how near (before or after) the Last Alliance that was ... I don't imagine if he came before, Glorfindel would have opted not to take the fight directly to Mordor.

And it was moderately important that he did ... Glorfindel was powerful enough to ride against the Nazgul, pious enough to send the Witch-King running back to Angmar, wise enough to know that the dread king of Angmar would die a special death, and had probably seen his fair share of war against Sauron before the War of the Ring began.

He clearly fought zealously in the wars with Angmar, which Rivendell must have been a key force in, and he was quite probably the most experienced, and skilled fighter in Middle Earth ... but that still didn't mean he enjoyed fighting.

[Celebuial]

I still can't comprehend why Glorfindel wasn't sent as one of The Nine Walkers.... Unless maybe it has something to do with the fact that Gandalf had to acomplish his task alone and without aid and maybe if Glorfindel was around events with the balrog may have gone differently. Mayhap this may only have been a good thing for the imeediate future and would somehow turn out for the bad.

Is Glorfindel's fea altered at all now that he has been 'reincarnated'. Or is he just the same and no more than he was before? Has he maybe learned more than those that haven't been 'reincarnated' and maybe this is why he doesn't accompany the Fellowship? Maybe he has learned too much in the halls of Mandos to beallowed to have an effect on events in Middle-Earth, maybe he can't interfere directly like the Valar them selves and to some extent Gandalf?

Sorry if my rambling is complete nonsense. I feel kinda lost, but am planning to buy the other volumes of HoME soon!

[HerenIstarion]

For one:

At the stage Glorfindel came into the story Tolkien himself was unaware of how much gloomier things will turn out towards the end

For two:

Glorfindel was way too perceptible.

Cf:

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

also:

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell.

It would not have been easy for him to use stealth. Apart from Ringwraiths, who surely would have seen him as he was 'upon the other side', Silent Watchers would have wailed at his approach, I believe

And the second half of the quote (Indeed there is a power...) would serve as reason number three:

For three:

Someone should have been left behind to 'withstand might of Mordor' in case of direct attack (which was attempted too, mind you)

***

For general reincarnation purposes: here. Not directly related, but touches upon some aspects. There are other interesting threads about it, I'll try to provide the links when free for the endevour.

cheers