The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2004, 02:30 AM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,529
Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Silmaril LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 05 - A Conspiracy Unmasked

For the most part, this chapter takes place in Frodo’s (supposedly) new home in Crickhollow. Having the movie’s dramatic scene at Bucklebury Ferry in mind, the crossing of the hobbits as told in the book seems almost peaceful, with the danger less obvious, seen only from the other side of the river. Again they enter a house which provides them with a brief respite and nourishment – though it’s only Fatty Bolger standing in the light to welcome them this time!

Two poems are included in this chapter: the Bath Song, which I’ve always enjoyed very much, with it’s humorous back and forth between poetic and practical references to water; and the Farewell Song – so typical for hobbits to make a light-hearted poem in face of danger!

Rereading this chapter made me aware of the fact that it is Merry who has the greatest role in it. Though all of Frodo’s friends are involved and Sam is the chief investigator, it is Merry who is the chief conspirator, understanding the connections between the bits and pieces of information they’ve collected, and organizing everything. He is the one who says my favourite lines in this chapter, when Frodo complains that he cannot trust anyone:
Quote:
You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin – to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours – closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word… We are horribly afraid – but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.
What a wonderful declaration of friendship!

The chapter ends with a look ahead, at the near danger of the Old Forest, the path they must take; and Frodo’s dream of the sea, a foresight into the far future for him.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 04:46 AM   #2
Hilde Bracegirdle
Relic of Wandering Days
 
Hilde Bracegirdle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,488
Hilde Bracegirdle has just left Hobbiton.
Skipping to the end of the chapter...

Every time I have read LoTR I have been struck by the frequency with which Frodo’s dreams are relayed early on, and how they taper off. If memory serves, the last being the dream in Tom Bombadil’s house. When pondering them I have the tendency to believe that these dreams have something to do with Gandalf (and not just the content of them). For though he is absent in person his mind is very much on Frodo, and having spent some time in Lorien, the istar might have gained a little knowledge from Irmo on dull afternoons.
Hilde Bracegirdle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 06:01 AM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
When pondering them I have the tendency to believe that these dreams have something to do with Gandalf (and not just the content of them). For though he is absent in person his mind is very much on Frodo, and having spent some time in Lorien, the istar might have gained a little knowledge from Irmo on dull afternoons.
Originally Frodo's dream was very much to do with Gandalf - it was about Gandalf! In notes for an early draft Tolkien writes:
Quote:
Black riders pursue him - Gandalf has insufficient magic to cope with Black Riders unadied, whoes King is a wizard. They pursue him over Sarn Ford & he cannot (or dare not) go back to Shire.

Eventually he is besieged in the Western Tower. He cannot get away while they guard it with five riders. But when Black Riders have located Frodo & found that he has gone off without Gandalf they ride away.
And Frodo's dream, after the snuffling figures, runs:

Quote:
Suddenly he found that he had drawn near & the tower loomed loomed high above him. About its feet there was a wall of faintly shining stones, & outside the wall sat silent watchers: black robed figures on black horses, gazing at the gate of the tower without moving, as if they had sat there forever.

There came at last the soft fall of hoofs, climbing up the hill. The watchers all stirred & turned slowly towards the sound. They were looking towards Frodo. He did not dare to turn, but he knew that behind him another dark figure, taller & more terrible, had appeared: it beckoned, & called out in a strange tongue. The horsemen leapt to life. They raised their dark heads towards the lofty chamber, & their mocking laughter rang out cruel & cold; then they turned from the white wall & rode down the hill like the wind. The blue light went out.

It seemed to Frodo that the riders came straight towards him; but even as they passed over him & beat him to the ground, he thought in his heart: ‘I am not here; they cannot hurt me. There is something here that I must see’. He lifted his head & saw a white horse leap the wall & stride towards him. On it rode a grey mantled figure: his white hair was streaming, & his cloak flew like wings behind him. As the grey rider bore down upon him he strove to see his face. the light grew in thee sky, & suddenly there was a noise of thunder.
where the 'psychic' link between Frodo & Gandalf is spelled out. It seems like Gandalf was going to end up trapped in a tower one way or the other! This dream seems almost like a case of 'astral projection' in that Frodo is experiencing actual events, somehow present as an observer. The way Tolkien turns this into the symbolic dream which we end up with, retaining the basic elements of the original gives us a fascinating insight into how the creative process works.

One thing I'd like to bring up here is Sam's feelings as he crossed the river:
Quote:
Sam was the only member of the party who had not been over the river before. He had a strange feeling as the slow gurgling stream slipped by: his old life lay behind in the mists, dark adventure lay in front.
The reason this interests me is, while it may simply be Tolkien's way of communicating Sam's emotional state, there is something in Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) which is a bit puzzling:
Quote:
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths’ fear of water....Thus of the rider (who was in fact Khamul of Dol Guldur*) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the hobbits had crossed it is said that ‘ he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of movement’, & that the Nazgul would not touch the ‘elvish’ waters of Baranduin**.

*From notes recounting in detail the movements of the black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it was Khamul who came to Hobbiton & spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the hobbits along the road to stock, & who narrowly missed them at Bucklebury Ferry. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, & with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was ‘his companion from Dol Guldur’. Of Khamul it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgul, after the Black Captain himself, to percievethe presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused & diminished by daylight.

**[At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch King & two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel & Aragorn.
Now its not so much the fear of water (& the interesting fact that we now at least know who it was that spoke to the Gaffer, & Farmer Maggot) that I'm getting at, but the reference to the waters of the Brandywine being 'Elvish'. Why? The Baranduin flows out of Lake Evendim, in Arthedain, where the Numeorean city of Annuminas was founded, but have I missed some Elvish connection - Saruman does tell the Lord of the Nazgul that the Shire is situated 'on the borders of the seaward elvish country', but would that be enough to make the Brandywine an 'elvish river'?

Is there something in the elvishness of the waters that affects Sam's perception? Frodo has dreamt of 'crossing the river' - the Brandywine or the Anduin isn't specified, but there is definitely a timeless symbolism in crossing a river.

In short, why is the Brandywine 'elvish'?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 08:54 AM   #4
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,055
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420! Chapter name.

The Chapter name would be "A Conspiracy unmasked." If you ask me Tolkien is playing with our expectations, we expect something "big" to happen in this chapter, maybe something "evil," instead its quite peaceful and light hearted. The "conspiracy" is Merry, Pip,..etc finding out Frodo is leaving the Shire, and their plan to make sure he does so unnoticed. Anytime the Hobbits are in some sort of danger, theres this place, refuge, person, or thing who help the Hobbits out. They have black riders pursuing them, Gildor comes, they are lost in the forest, find Farmer Maggot, Tom Bombadil...etc.

My question here is Gandalf says The Shire is not "hid" anymore, or something to that effect. Revealing Sauron now knows about the Shire, and knows the ring is there. However, was Sauron really THAT interested in The Shire? We know Saruman had his own plans but what about Sauron? I was wondering because when the Hobbits leave the Shire there are no more stories of "Black Riders" in The Shire anymore. It just seems once Sauron finds out the ring has left the Shire, he doesn't care about that place anymore. All the Nazgul go and fight in the wars to come, and still pursue the ringbearer. There are no more stories of black riders being in The Shire, so to me it seems like Sauron really wasn't interested in the Shire in the first place. The only reason he sent his minions there was to find the ring.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 09:16 AM   #5
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,129
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
This is an important chapter. It is first of all the conclusion of the Hobbits' first journey, which occupies chapters 3, 4, and 5. It is also the last chapter set in the Shire until book VI (not counting the brief scenes in I. 11). And it is a chapter of some logistical importance - that is, it tells us who is going where.

Crickhollow is the third safe place we have encountered so far on the journey (the others being Woody End and Farmer Maggot's house), and in as many chapters. But each one of these safe places seems (to me, anyway) less safe than the last. With the Elves we fear no danger. Maggot certainly does not seem invulnerable; he is a fallible hobbit - but he is older and has a certain degree of authority. But at Crickhollow there is no authority figure, save Frodo (and Merry, I suppose). The danger has not really escalated all that much since the first encounter with a Black Rider. But the protection offered by the safe houses along the way has diminished.

Estelyn wrote:
Quote:
Rereading this chapter made me aware of the fact that it is Merry who has the greatest role in it.
Each time I've read LotR I've realized more just how distinct the characters of Merry and Pippin are, even from the beginning. On earlier readings, I confess, I had thought of them as more or less identical - and I think this is the natural reaction of a lot of readers. But they are quite different. Pippin is a Took, Merry a Brandybuck - therefore Pippin has the Tookish curiosity and inclination toward adventure while Merry has the Brandybuck maturity. Pippin has a tendency to take up an adventure lightly, without worrying about maps and names and such things; Merry is little less likely to accept an adventure but is much more likely to do some research first. Pippin is a Hobbit of the Four Farthings; Merry is a Hobbit of Buckland and therefore knows a thing or two about the wider world. Merry has even been in the Old Forest. Pippin is altogether more like Bilbo and Merry more like Frodo - and this is no surprise, since Bilbo's mother was a Took and Frodo was raised in Buckland. Of course, Merry and Pippin are very similar in other ways. Both, after all, are inquisitive; and both are thoroughly Hobbit-like. The differences between them are very subtly drawn. This is a prime example to hold up in argument against those who criticize Tolkien's skill with characterization.

It's interesting that in chapters 3, 4, and 5 the party is made up of three, four, and five Hobbits, respectively. And in a sense in chapter 2 it consists of just two Hobbits - for it is there arranged that Frodo is to take Sam along. And this brings me to Fatty Bolger, one of those relatively minor characters that I am fond of for some reason unknown even to me. Perhaps it's because of the lack of recognition he receives - you'd be hard-pressed to find a reader that couldn't remember who Frodo or Sam or Merry or Pippin was, but I'll bet a lot of readers wouldn't remember Fatty Bolger. And yet he was in on the whole thing in the beginning just the same as Merry and Pippin. He even knew about the Ring! It's odd to think that while Gandalf is hiding the whole truth even from Theoden, and Denethor is just guessing it, there is away in the north in some hole or house in the Shire a Hobbit that knows all about the Ring.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 10:08 AM   #6
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,055
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420! Don't forget Chapter one.

Quote:
Aiwendil Quoted:
It's interesting that in chapters 3, 4, and 5 the party is made up of three, four, and five Hobbits, respectively. And in a sense in chapter 2 it consists of just two Hobbits -
Don't forget Chapter one which focuses on Bilbo. Yes, it has some info about Frodo, Sam, Ted, plus the Sackville-Bagginses. But, the main focus on this Chapter is Bilbo, Bilbo's party, Bilbo's ring, and Bilbo's departure. Interesting point you picked up Aiwendil.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 01:35 PM   #7
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,129
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Boromir88 wrote:
Quote:
Don't forget Chapter one which focuses on Bilbo.
True. But in 2, 3, 4, and 5 the process is cumulative. In two we have Frodo and Sam. Three adds Pippin. Four adds Merry. Five adds Fatty. Still it's a good point that chapter one focuses on a single Hobbit. Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 01:55 PM   #8
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Ah, but in a way it's not -- for the hobbits encounter Tom Bombadil, who does not accompany them, but he does very much become a part of their quest. . .

But I get ahead of myself -- focus on this chapter, Fordim, this chapter.

(Should probably read it first, however. . .)
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 02:27 PM   #9
Bêthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bêthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,038
Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Bêthberry is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Boots Roll 'em

Quote:
Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Indeed, after six, that would be dicey indeed.

Okay, okay. sorry. I shall finish the chapter and return in more appropriate form, but I am not quite sure just what the great value is of this chapter. The bathtime hijinks reminded me of davem's observations about the writing process for earlier chapters and the silliness over upper stories.

For now, speaking of the poems as Estelyn does, I wanted to comment on Pippin's cavalier comment, "Oh, that was poetry," to Frodo. There really are a remarkable number of comments to the literariness of things here.
Bêthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 09:27 PM   #10
Silmiel of Imladris
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Silmiel of Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing
Posts: 395
Silmiel of Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Silmiel of Imladris
Silly me, I read most of this chapter thinking that Merry was with Frodo, Sam, and Pippin when they were traveling to crickhollow until Merry come up to them by the ferry. I haven't read the books in a while so I can't remember how some of this goes. I don't have much to say about this chapter since there wasn't an exorbinate amount going on. I know I am going to get it for this, but I never like this chapter and ones similar for I can't help thinking that it all centers around sitting down and eating, again! A hobbit wouldn't have very much luck with a low carb diet or any diet for that matter.
__________________
Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me.

Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?
Silmiel of Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 10:15 PM   #11
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,055
Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Boromir88 is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420! A Pudgy people

Most hobbits were pudgy. Frodo was really only the skinny hobbit and he said he was gaining weight since he hadn't walked in a while. Boyd and Monaghan were too skilly for Merry and Pip, however they did a great job acting.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 03:53 AM   #12
Hilde Bracegirdle
Relic of Wandering Days
 
Hilde Bracegirdle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,488
Hilde Bracegirdle has just left Hobbiton.
Stress Relief

I think this chapter is less about eating and bath time hi-jinks, than trying to relax among friends for possibly the last time. At this point Frodo’s friends are bringing him comfort physically as well as mentally. And after all who wouldn’t sing at the prospect of a hot bath after two days stomping around being chased by those sinister riders. I know that I have been quite overcome with joy to find a brimming tub of hot water after ‘roughing it’, and probably sounded rather giddy too!

But the points I ponder most are: the dream, the description of where the house at Crickhollow is (it echoes Frodo's internal transition) and Merry’s vast organizational abilities!

Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 07-20-2004 at 04:56 AM.
Hilde Bracegirdle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 12:30 PM   #13
Tuor of Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
Tuor of Gondolin has just left Hobbiton.
Originally posted by Davem
--------------------------------
"there is something in Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) which is a bit puzzling:Quote:
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths’ fear of water....Thus of the rider (who was in fact Khamul of Dol Guldur*) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the hobbits had crossed it is said that ‘ he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of movement’, & that the Nazgul would not touch the ‘elvish’ waters of Baranduin"
----------------------------------

If I could make a brief comment here, my first in the chapters discussion,
I've always been curious about CT's observation above, it seems to me an obvious possible reason for the Ringwraith's fear of water, and Sauron's various lads not using the sea (save for the allied Corsairs of Umbar, is implied in the Silmarillion, the power of Ulmo not just in the seas but in rivers and streams, especially versus the far weaker Sauron as opposed to Morgoth.
From Unfinished Tales
"The waters that run westward whither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land."

In the Third Age, why wouldn't his power be dominant in major rivers like the Anduin and the Brandywine?

Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 07-22-2004 at 12:43 PM.
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 03:28 PM   #14
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I made the mistake of saying about the last chapter that it was “slight” and not very interesting – then we ended up having not just one of the most interesting discussions in the CbC forum to date, but even spawning our first spin-off thread!

Determined not to make the same mistake twice, I dove into “A Conspiracy Unmasked” determined to find matters that might give it a bit more weight. What I found myself remarking upon was the oddly dark undercurrents to the chapter. It takes place entirely at night, and the descriptions of the night and dark surrounding the house seemed consistently to set off the smallness of the light contained within. This is no return to the relative safety of Bag End like we found at the beginning. Frodo comments that his things have been arranged to make it “look like home,” but of course it cannot look like home for it is not home. I think beneath the comfort and cheer of the songs and the food, there is a terrible melancholy as Frodo’s now-houseless existence is being ironically underscored by this ‘moving in.’ Compare the sense of transience and danger of this chapter to the warmth and safety of Farmer Maggot’s house – Frodo is indeed upon the very edge of his adventure and his journey: this last stopping place in the Shire is only a stop-over, a home he cannot enjoy, and a place where he can only rest up for the trials ahead. I think that it is entirely fitting and right that he should have a dream which foreshadows his final home (looking to the Sea and the west). That dream is another melancholy note, and it ends this chapter in which the hobbits try so hard to maintain a tone of bright happiness.

I think that this is what I found most striking about this chapter: the hobbits are being very hobbitty, but unlike the Party with which the book began, it all seems so much more fragile here. Now that Frodo has completed the first part of his journey and he and his companions are aware of the dangers (and glories) that exist beyond the Shire, their attempt to make themselves ‘at home’ is doomed to failure. They have already been changed, irrevocably, by their experiences, and I find that very sad in a way.

There’s another interesting echo between the hobbits and the Nazgûl, I think (again, with the echoes!). Merry, Pippin, Fatty and Sam have been “unmasked” – this evokes I think the ‘masks’ that the Nazgûl wear at all times and can never take off. Also, the hobbits are in a “conspiracy”; this is a loaded term – one “conspires” against another. I am not suggesting that the hobbits are against Frodo in any way (quite the opposite), but the choice of this word for the chapter title (and they use it themselves) highlights both the connections and contrasts between these two groups.

When we do this, the whole chapter gives us a new view of the Shire – or, rather, a clearer view of the Shire. At the beginning of the book, hobbits were eating and singing and being very silly and charming and it was all lovely and enjoyable. Unbeknownst to them (and to the reader) however, there were these terrible forces of darkness closing in upon them from all sides, drawn by the power of an evil object possessed by a hobbit who was a bit of an outsider in the community, but still a part of the community. In this chapter we have precisely the same situation – with the hobbits inside singing their bath songs and eating mushrooms, and the Nazgûl on the outside, drawn by the power of the Ring – but it all feels so very different, perhaps even wrong. The hobbits (and the reader) have now learned to see their world the way others have for centuries (the Elves, Gandalf, the Rangers); they are aware of the danger and the darkness, and their hobbitty ways are somehow a bit sillier than they were formerly. It’s like growing out of our childhood games. Once you’ve seen what a real gun will do to a person, who wants to play ‘cowboys and Indians’? This chapter, for me, marks the loss of innocence for Frodo. The sense of the disconnect that already exists between Frodo and his community is palpable throughout the chapter. He is going away, probably (he thinks) forever.

At the same time, however, this new and greater awareness gives the hobbits their first chance to show what they are capable of, since not only their silliness is set off against the darkness of reality, but so are the bonds of friendship and goodwill that hold them together. It’s one thing to stand by your friends when your biggest concern is wrangling for that last mushroom…it’s an altogether different thing when you are being chased by the Nine.

I’m not silly enough to do the former, and I’m not brave enough to do the latter. That’s how I know I’m not a hobbit…

Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 07-20-2004 at 03:32 PM.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 05:51 PM   #15
Firefoot
Illusionary Holbytla
 
Firefoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,646
Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
the hobbits are being very hobbitty, but unlike the Party with which the book began, it all seems so much more fragile here.
Exactly! It is something of a pretense over the darker dangers and undercurrents which they know are there but do not quite want to acknowledge yet. It brings to mind Merry's words in the Houses of Healing (not to stray too much from the chapter...): "But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place." It is the way of hobbits to talk lightly of such things. Even though they fully (or not so fully) understand the dangers they face, they do not speak of them in deep dark ways.
Firefoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 09:14 PM   #16
The Saucepan Man
Corpus Cacophonous
 
The Saucepan Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,467
The Saucepan Man has been trapped in the Barrow!
Thumbs up True friendship

Quote:
I shall finish the chapter and return in more appropriate form, but I am not quite sure just what the great value is of this chapter. The bathtime hijinks reminded me of davem's observations about the writing process for earlier chapters and the silliness over upper stories. (Bêthberry)
Quote:
I don't have much to say about this chapter since there wasn't an exorbinate amount going on. I know I am going to get it for this, but I never like this chapter and ones similar for I can't help thinking that it all centers around sitting down and eating, again! (Silmiel of Imladris)
I feel that I have to make an effort to defend this Chapter as it is one of my favourites. Bilbo aside, Merry and Pippin are the characters that I am most fond of (yes, I am a Hobbit at heart ) and I have always been rather taken by the manner in which they join Frodo's Quest. Forget Arwen stealing Glorfindel's horse, Elves at Helm's Deep and "evil" Faramir. The loss of this chapter was one of the changes made in the film that I mourned the most. Merry and Pippin didn't accompany Frodo and Sam because they randomly ran into them in Farmer Maggot's field. They did so out of friendship, knowing that peril lay ahead of them (albeit not the full extent of it).

To my mind, Esty hit the nail on the head in the extract that she quoted at the outset of this thread. I will quote it here in full because I like it so much:


Quote:
You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin – to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours – closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo. Anyway: there it is. We know of what Gandalf has told you. We know a god deal about the Ring. We are horribly afraid – but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds. (emphasis added)
For me, this chapter is all about friendship. The light-hearted banter and gentle teasing highlights the closeness of these friends (and, for a time, masks their fear and anticipation, as Firefoot has pointed out), but it is the determination of Merry and Pippin to accompany Frodo that really shows the bond between them. Of course, they cannot imagine the full extent of the danger which lies ahead, but they know just about as much as Frodo does and yet they have resolved to stick with him "through thick and thin". That is the measure of their friendship. Even Fatty shows his committment to the cause by agreeing to stay behind at Crickhollow, knowing that these fearsome Black Riders will be turning up sooner or later.

Another passage struck me in this context:


Quote:
"Good! That's settled. Three cheers for Captain Frodo and company!" they shouted; and they danced round him. Merry and Pippin began a song, which they had apparently got ready for the occasion.
Reading it now, this passage very much puts me in mind of the camaraderie of young soldiers celebrating excitedly together after volunteering for service in the Great War - knowing that they are likely to face danger, but little imaging the full horror of it. I wonder if this is a scene from Tolkien's own experience.

Just one further point to add for the time being:


Quote:
But at Crickhollow there is no authority figure, save Frodo (and Merry, I suppose). The danger has not really escalated all that much since the first encounter with a Black Rider. But the protection offered by the safe houses along the way has diminished. (Aiwendil)
The reduced protection that Crickhollow offers is also suggested by the following passage:


Quote:
Their land was originally unprotected from the East; but on that side they had built a hedge: the High Hay ... But, of course, it was not a complete protection. The Forest drew close to the hedge in many places. the Bucklanders kept their doors locked after dark, and that also was not usual in the Shire.
This adds to the dark undertones in this chapter and emphasises that the Hobbits really are now on the edge of "friendly territory". As indeed do Fredegar's ominous comments about the Old Forest and Merry's curious (at least for readers who have not yet read further) comment about the trees being "sleepy and fairly quiet" during the daylight hours.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!
The Saucepan Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 09:22 PM   #17
Nurumaiel
Vice of Twilight
 
Nurumaiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: on a mountain
Posts: 1,139
Nurumaiel has just left Hobbiton.
Nasssty me, posting on this thread when I'm just barely through Chapter I, but all the same:

Quote:
...the hobbits are being very hobbitty, but unlike the Party with which the book began, it all seems so much more fragile here.
This is very full of truth. The baths, and the hobbity dialogue, etc. all are entirely in character for a hobbit, yet there is a darkness present. As a child hearing this chapter I can recall moving closer to my brothers and father; to this day I don't like to read it unless others are present. The tones are light and cheery but it seems to add to the sinister aspects. There is a danger present, and it seems to be lurking in every shadow. It's frightening to sit and read this chapter, for even when you know what the danger is, there is still a mystery about it. A feeling of sadness, too, conquers me as I read the attempt of the hobbits to be light and humourous when they are vaguely aware of what is coming up in and disappearing from their lives.

At the moment I am sitting in a room full of distant cheeriness myself, with only a dim light and long creeping shadows stretching out towards me, and so I couldn't resist writing how I feel about this particular aspect of the story. Now I will go away and come back after I have read the chapter. Wicked me!
Nurumaiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 01:11 AM   #18
Fingolfin II
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Fingolfin II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
Posts: 1,039
Fingolfin II has just left Hobbiton.
Fordim said:

Quote:
In this chapter we have precisely the same situation – with the hobbits inside singing their bath songs and eating mushrooms, and the Nazgûl on the outside, drawn by the power of the Ring – but it all feels so very different, perhaps even wrong. The hobbits (and the reader) have now learned to see their world the way others have for centuries (the Elves, Gandalf, the Rangers); they are aware of the danger and the darkness, and their hobbitty ways are somehow a bit sillier than they were formerly.
I definately agree that the hobbits are becoming more aware of the danger that they are faced with and are already starting to show signs of 'growing up' by pledging their faith to Frodo, even though they know it won't be an adventure like Bilbo's, but a dark quest, where they'll be "flying from danger to danger".

What really strikes me here is that they accept this, without knowing the full dangers of the Nazgul and only having a vague idea of the strength of Mordor. They become aware of the danger associated with Sauron's servants, but I think that this is only really evident after the Weathertop incident and that this chapter (along with the previous one) and their gradual recognition of who and what the Nazgul are and what they are capable of is just a build up to their meeting with Aragorn and their confrontation with the Nazgul on Weathertop, where they experience the terror of the Nazgul up close when the Witch King stabs Frodo and even before, in Bree.

Nurumaiel said:

Quote:
There is a danger present, and it seems to be lurking in every shadow. It's frightening to sit and read this chapter, for even when you know what the danger is, there is still a mystery about it.
That's exactly the way I feel about this chapter! As the companions on the quest begin to unfold here, so do the obstacles toward the target begin to become more potent and sinister, we still don't know what exactly they are, and how dangerous they could be. Only later do we find out that they are the Ringwraiths, Sauron's deadliest servants. However, this ignorance of their full, frightening, selves is actually quite important, because if Frodo and his company knew who they were, they might not have had the courage to try and reach Bree and the quest could have failed then and there. To summarise it, I think that this chapter is a brilliant taste of what's going to happen next and gives us (as I said in a different thread) "a hint of darker things to come".
__________________
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Fingolfin II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 04:04 AM   #19
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
What is it about the way Buckland is presented in the book? They're queer folk in Buckland, we're told. They live on the wrong side of the 'elvish' river - between the elvish waters & the Old Forest, which has an evil reputation. Its a place of transition, a 'border', a crossing place - neither part of the Shire proper, nor part of the world beyond. Its 'betwixt & between'. In Celtic myth, rivers, fords, crossroads, & suchlike places were believed to be places where the 'worlds' met - this world & the Other world, & they were the places where 'adventures' began. Interestingly, checking out the derivation of 'Buckland', an actual British placename, I found that it was originally related to 'puck', a woodland spirit. We're in 'puck'land, on the borders of another, older, stranger world.

The day has begun with Frodo waking from a dreamless sleep at Woodhall, & ends with him having one of the most symbolic & significant dreams he will ever have in the house at Crickhollow. Its 24 hours since his meeting with the Elves, & the whole day from twlight to twilight has begun Frodo's transformation. Its not really surprising that the dream is so powerful.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 05:44 AM   #20
Evisse the Blue
Brightness of a Blade
 
Evisse the Blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: wherever I may roam
Posts: 2,740
Evisse the Blue has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Evisse the Blue Send a message via Yahoo to Evisse the Blue Send a message via Skype™ to Evisse the Blue
You people are really clever to have such interesting conversations over a chapter, that I have to confess, I didn't find very interesting either. The only things that 'stood out' for me, was Merry's really impressive conspiratiorial and organizational skills (which have already been pointed out); he really acts like a 'parent figure', even to older Frodo, and (can I say so?) like a protector. Somehow, despite the 'danger lurking in every corner' apparent in this chapter, one finds a little comfort that Merry is around. At least that's how I feel.

And doesn't this quote make you feel cosy and warm inside:
Quote:
A friendly light streamed out. they slipped in quickly and shut themselves and the light inside.
It makes me exhale a sigh of relief and content.
Perhaps that's only true for me, but I always feel like, the closer the danger is, the more comfort I'd find in a shelter. Evil is prawling outside the doors of my cottage, but I am sitting beside the fire with my friends and I plan on enjoying the wonderful meal in front of me, even more if it's the last one. Same as 'you don't appreciate the small joys of life until you're in danger of losing them' - the closer the danger, the higher the appreciation.

!Silly question warning: Why did Gorhendad Oldbuck change his name to Brandybuck? Did he like brandy that much?
__________________
And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.
Evisse the Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 05:56 AM   #21
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,529
Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Not silly at all, Evisse! Your question got me thinking about the meaning of the word "brand" - "brandy" is based on that word root. In German, "Brand" is a fire or blaze, and alcohols (like brandy) are said to be "burned". I looked up "brand" in the M-W online dictionary and found that the etymology of the word is
Quote:
Middle English, torch, sword, from Old English; akin to Old English bærnan to burn
Accordingly, the definitions are (very briefly) 1)firebrand; 2)sword; 3)brandmark, trademark, or stigma; 4)make; and 5)branding tool.

Now I'm really starting to wonder - what connection did old Gorhendad have with fire? Do you suppose he was the one who was involved in the Old Forest fire which took place at the Bonfire Glade? I couldn't find any reference to that on the quick...

Additional thoughts: The River involved here is the Brandywine, corrupted from Baranduin (meaning in Sindarin: 'golden-brown river' ). In Fosters's Guide, I found this information:
Quote:
The original (and genuine) Hobbitish name for the river was Branda-nîn, 'border-water,' which was later corrupted to Bralda-hîm, 'heady ale,' its normal name at the time of the WR.
In that case, perhaps the Brandybucks were named for their location at the border of the Shire.

Now I challenge someone to find a connection between the fire and the border definitions!
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 07-21-2004 at 06:05 AM.
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 06:10 AM   #22
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evisse
Silly question warning: Why did Gorhendad Oldbuck change his name to Brandybuck? Did he like brandy that much
In't it just related to the Brandywine River, which was named for its colour (a 'corruption' of Baranduin=brown river)?

Or is Esty right, & the explanation more obscure?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2004, 10:07 PM   #23
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Of Rivers and Journeys. . .

This might be a bit obscure, but here goes…

Thanks to Esty for bringing up the question of the name of the Brandywine. Davem has already quite rightly identified the meaning of the name in terms of its secondary world origins (a corruption of the Elvish), but I was still intrigued enough by Esty’s challenge to work through some of the implications of the name in terms of the primary world (i.e. what it means in terms of English philology)

The “brandy” part is, I think, as Esty has theorised: it refers to “brand” and the idea of a fire (or more poetically a sword). One of the advantages of using the OED over the M-W, however, is that I found a further connotation to the word “brand” when used as a verb (that is, when one ‘brands’ something with a heated iron). The idea of “branding” began as a royal privilege: the king would “brand” his enemies by burning the King’s mark onto their face, indicating that they were outlaws and not to be allowed to mingle with civilised society. In its earliest uses (as a verb), it meant to mark someone as an outsider and to designate them to that outsider status forever. This, I think, goes along very nicely with the idea of the River as the border between the Shire (the civilised world of everyday experience) and the Wild (the world of outlawry and danger that lies beyond the fringes of the normal world).

The “wine” is even more interesting. There’s the obvious connotation of the fermented drink – it’s a drink that is communal and festive, even celebratory. But it’s also the drink used at communion… A bit of a leap, but bear with me.

Wine in Old English – especially when used as a suffix – means “friend” or “protector,” almost invariably associated with princely or kingly privilege (e.g. maegenwine = a powerful, kingly friend and protector).

So how does this sound – brand+wine could indicate that beyond this River is a land that has been branded or marked as a place of outlawry by the power of the king? In this sense there are two ways to go. First, the Shire is a land that pays nominal duty to “the King” while the lands about it do not: so the Brandywine in this sense really does mark the edge between the King’s power (those who acknowledge his “wine” ) and outlawry (those who do not and are “brandy” ). But I’m going to go completely nuts here – given the associations between wine and communion, is it possible to see the King who is acknowledged in the Shire, but not out, as Christ???

Like I said, I’m taking a bit of flier here…

The only other point I would like to make is that I think this chapter gives us a chance to look back and assess how far the hobbits and we have come. Not in terms of the distance travelled, but in moral terms. There has been some real development in the hobbits (in Frodo and Sam in particular) but are they substantially different here in Crickhollow than they were at Bag End? I think that this is a very important question, actually, as if they are different, if they have already begun to learn and grow then they are doing so entirely by themselves, which would seem to indicate that their greatness – dare I say their heroism – is something that is truly and wholly innate to their hobbitty natures, and native to the Shire. If they have not substantially changed, however, then it would appear that hobbits need to leave the Shire before they can become ‘fully heroic’ (whatever that means).

In other words, as they cross the boundary of the River, how much of what they are going to need later are they taking with them? How much has already been accomplished? For my money, I think that there has been a lot – but I will await your responses.

Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 07-21-2004 at 10:10 PM.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 06:12 AM   #24
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,529
Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Thanks for adding those good thoughts about the second part of the river's name, "wine", Fordim! It seems to me that we have evidence for another of Tolkien's clever wordplays here. On the surface (no water pun intended ) we have a lighthearted river name that sounds like what the Hobbits seem to be at first glance - all about eating and drinking! But go down deeper and you find layers of meaning and of, well - depth, the toughness of the Hobbits. Those who live in Buckland are indeed "border-friends", if we combine two of those meanings.

Knowing how important names were to Tolkien, I can well imagine that he was fully aware of all of these connotations and used them on purpose. How like a linguist to combine several languages, including the archaic form, to make a name that seems simple yet has so much more to it than meets the eye! As a matter of fact, even within the context of the story, we have three linguistic layers to the river's name: Brandywine, Branda-Nîn, and Baranduin.

Now I'm curious about the "Buck-" part of the name. M-W online again -
Quote:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bucca stag, he-goat
The presumed founder of the house of Oldbuck was Bucca of the Marsh, first Thain of the Shire. I'm not sure what significance that has; any additional ideas?

In answer to your question, Fordim, I think they had their heroic qualities inside them from the beginning - the circumstances only brought them out. I don't think adventures can make changes in a person unless the seed is already there.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 06:38 AM   #25
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn
Now I'm curious about the "Buck-" part of the name. M-W online again -
Quote:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bucca stag, he-goat

The presumed founder of the house of Oldbuck was Bucca of the Marsh, first Thain of the Shire. I'm not sure what significance that has; any additional ideas?
Some folkloric connections, considering Tolkien's desire to link the Legendarium into English myth & legend('bucca/pucca, buck/puck are linked etymologically). woodland creatures/earth spirits are possibly a good direction to look in:
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=...pdx.com&rnum=8

Last edited by davem; 07-22-2004 at 06:46 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 06:55 AM   #26
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,842
Fordim Hedgethistle is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
The supremacy of the OED

I've said before and I will say it again -- the Oxford English Dictionary is the best book ever written (and we of course all know that Tolkien helped with putting it together!)

I had a look through all the various uses of "buck" and found this fascinating entry:

Talk, conversation; spec. boastful, bragging talk; insolence; esp. in phrase old buck

Now what does this suggest about Gorhendad? That he was 'all talk' in a way? That his venture out of the Shire and onto the edge of the Wild is in some way mere bluster and braggadoccio? This might indicate that the supposed adventurousness of the Bucklanders is not so great as it appears: they hold themselves out as the great visionary adventure seekers by having crossed the River, and yet when they get there they set up hobbit holes, build a high hedge against the world, and burn back the Old Forest. In effect, they settle down and once more become very very hobbitty, bragging about how they have 'left' the Shire but retaining it with all their strength.

Oldbuck's journey then is in stark contrast to what our hobbits are doing -- as this chapter makes clear in its tone, they are already somewhat out of step with their homeland, already disconnected from it, since they are well and truly leaving. They aren't just living in the border region, but going past and beyond it.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2004, 06:56 AM   #27
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
A few things regarding the Brandywine (Baranduin)

Around 1700 of the Second Age, as stated in Unfinished tales, Sauron was driven away by Tar-Minastir and his forces after great slaughter at Sarn Ford (the crossing of the Baranduin).

The ringwraiths fear of the water could stem from here. (But then they did use the actual Sarn Ford crossing to reach the Shire, so this is not concrete evidence).

More on the river: regarding people who seem to have been driven out of their homesteads by the Numenorians
Quote:
and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk.
Again we see (people this time) afraid to cross the river Brandywine.

I think it could just boil down to the fact that black rider and horse were not able to swim across the river, but could use Sarn Ford, which just required ‘wading’.
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2004, 09:56 AM   #28
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,396
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
After finishing the chapter, my first reaction is a simple one: this used to be one of myleast favorite chapters, but now I think it is one of my most favorite. All the dark wandering and separation and evil the hobbits face in the war are cast into sharp relief by the backbone of this chapter: the wrenching in Frodo's heart as he prepares to leave his good friends, their steely determination that he will not escape their diligence, and his relief and joy at their companionship.

Frodo's surprise and indignation is wonderfully comic. Merry's firm gentle assertions deeply touch me.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2004, 04:27 PM   #29
Azaelia of Willowbottom
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Azaelia of Willowbottom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: By the Sea
Posts: 455
Azaelia of Willowbottom has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Azaelia of Willowbottom
1420!

I'm kind of jumping away from the topic at hand, namely the names of the River and Bucca... While I have a love for languages, I am no ace at entymology. I'm young, give me time. So my situation being as it is, I have nothing of value to add to that particular discussion, save to say that it is fascinating. I feel like I'm always learning when I log on at the BD's. Now, with apologies, I turn back to more familiar territory...

Ahh yes, another of my absoloute favorite chapters (A statement that I think I will be repeating over and over as we move through the beginning of the story)!
I love reading about the Hobbits back before all the horrible things that happen to them are much more than a trailing dark shadow, or grim foreshadowing.

This chapter really shows the three supporting Hobbits at their very best. So much fun to read! Especially the revelation of Sam as the spy. Frodo's surprise at how much Merry and Pippin know is absoloutely priceless. It's also sad in a way. They force Frodo to take them along, but none of them know the danger, or just how long and dark their journey will be...Frodo has a more accurate preception of it than the rest, but none of them know what they're in for in the long run, and Sam certainly has some sense of it. Pippin has encountered a Black Rider, and certainly is afraid of it, but how much of the danger he precieves, I do not know. Merry is really out of the loop as far as Riders are concerned. He hasn't encountered them over and over as the others have, but he is older than all but Frodo, I believe, and will probably be next to grasp the full seriousness of the situation. All three that have been on the journey have grown and changed, Frodo the most noticeably.

Each time I reread LOTR, my mind grabs onto some details it previously missed, rushed through, or just plain forgot. This time, what I fixated on was that Frodo has some really interesting dreams, at least throughout FOTR. Rereading this chapter gave me the chance to notice this paragraph, one that had somehow escaped my notice, or at least, my memory on my many other readings of this book...
Quote:
Eventually [Frodo] fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the sea far off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams...
It goes on to describe his sudden longing to see the Sea.

I find that so intrigueing because Tolkien seems to make a point of describing it, and of making it the last thing we read about in the chapter. I'm still not sure what it means... I was thnking he was on the Tower Hills, where Sam's daughter Elanor would someday live. I think that's where the Arthedain were located, correct me if I'm wrong: I'm not particularly good at geography, and Middle Earth's history at times gets a little foggy and confused in my mind. I'm not quite sure what significance that has, but it would appear that Frodo is seeing a real place in his dream, one that he has never been to before. Also, a connection to the Sea, even a longing for it, has been established. Thoughts?

OK, now you're free to go back to the deeper linguistic discussion. I'll go back to lurking around on this thread and learn all I can from it.
__________________
"Wherever I have been, I am back."
Azaelia of Willowbottom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2004, 07:31 PM   #30
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,396
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
To the Sea!

Quote:
It goes on to describe his sudden longing to see the Sea.

I find that so intrigueing because Tolkien seems to make a point of describing it, and of making it the last thing we read about in the chapter. I'm still not sure what it means... I was thnking he was on the Tower Hills, where Sam's daughter Elanor would someday live...... but it would appear that Frodo is seeing a real place in his dream, one that he has never been to before. Also, a connection to the Sea, even a longing for it, has been established. Thoughts?
In a word, YES. Well put-- and deep, too.

If we follow this track (and I heartily agree) then Frodo is shown to be (a) prophetic, (b) called Westward, and (c) providentially going away from his desire. It reminds me of a certain rule, that he who would be greatest must become the slave of all.

Great post.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2004, 08:42 PM   #31
Lyta_Underhill
Haunted Halfling
 
Lyta_Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 844
Lyta_Underhill has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
On the surface (no water pun intended ) we have a lighthearted river name that sounds like what the Hobbits seem to be at first glance - all about eating and drinking! But go down deeper and you find layers of meaning and of, well - depth, the toughness of the Hobbits.
I also get the feeling in this chapter that the appearance of the Hobbits as lighthearted and frivolous is only a mask, one that many of them have worn so long they forget how to be serious and how to face hard truths and challenges. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Fatty have not forgotten, and the 'unmasking' shows them to be the tough and true creatures that Gandalf became so fond of so long ago. This is one of my favorite chapters for one simple reason: there is an overwhelming sense, to me, of revelation, of help where it is least expected, of light in a bleak outlook. In short, I undergo all the surprise, joy and elation that Frodo does when the conspiracy is unmasked by layers, when his friends reveal themselves to be more true than he ever imagined, a light in the darkness.

Just as the Black Riders are showing the emptiness underneath their masks (the hood, which Farmer Maggot notices is so deep you can't see anything underneath it at all), his friends are showing their true colors and support beyond all Frodo's hopes. Even though Crickhollow proves to be only a stopping place, and as someone earlier said, Frodo is facing a houseless state, his friends have proven their willingness to sacrifice their comfort and safety for Frodo's sake, to help him take his home with him in a sense, the part of it that really matters anyway.

I know my thoughts aren't as coherent as they could be. I am also catching up, although I've read it quite a few times! I only hope I can keep up! But basically, this chapter is the one that uncovers the true beauty of hobbits, their earthy version of Light.

On another note, I find Pippin's tendency to overdo the exuberance of taking a hot bath to be another aspect of the hobbits' relentless lightheartedness, all the more pronounced for just having escaped an imminent danger, on the edge of another round of danger. I can't think of anything else, but I've quite enjoyed the etymological and historical posts as well!

Cheers!
Lyta
__________________
“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”
Lyta_Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2004, 07:58 AM   #32
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,529
Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
One brief thought that occurs to me - Fredegar Bolger's decision to stay behind is told of matter-of-factly, with no condemnation for his decision. He misses out on the journey and its adventures, but he is not belittled for staying behind and doing what he is capable of doing there for his friends. That reminds me of Aragorn's generous dealings with those soldiers who are too afraid to go to the Black Gate with him - he gives them a task that is within their strength to accomplish and does not condemn them for their cowardice. Not everyone is able to tackle the same challenges, and there is no shame in admitting that some things are bigger than one can handle.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2004, 02:02 PM   #33
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,804
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Sorry about this, I'm going back to the linguistic thread as I had a few thoughts about it. I was reading this thread yesterday and decided to look up an old book (1967) by Basil Cottle - The Penguin Dictionary of Surnames. The derivation for Buckland says:

Quote:
Land held by charter (literally book-land) Old English
However, I think that may be a bit of a curveball, as reading further, other surnames beginning with the prefix "Buck-", such as Buckley, Buckden and Buckton, are all alleged to derive from the root "buck, male deer". Interestingly, this in it's turn is possibly a derivation from the Old English name Bucca.

Bucca means "male deer" or "he-goat" and appears to have been the name of a regional chieftain, as in the name Buckingham

Quote:
River-meadow of Bucca's followers, Old English
As Bucca was the name of the first Thain of the Shire, Tolkien must have known of this derivation, which suggests that Buckland is probably intended to be from this root, and does not mean "Book-land".

In the same book, "Wine" is defined as simply "friend", from Old English. Alas, it appears that "Brandy" is not a surname! However, as already mentioned "Brand" is Old Norse for torch or firebrand, and the name "Brandreth" means "burnt clearing" in Old English. Does this suggest a burnt clearing in amongst their friends, the trees of the Old Forest? Maybe I'm imagining too much!

I couldn't resist looking up Took, too. It is given as Old Norse, probably a pet version of Thorkil or Thirkettle which, sinisterly, means "Thor's sacrificial cauldron".
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2004, 08:15 PM   #34
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,618
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via MSN to Lhunardawen
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill
I also get the feeling in this chapter that the appearance of the Hobbits as lighthearted and frivolous is only a mask, one that many of them have worn so long they forget how to be serious and how to face hard truths and challenges. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Fatty have not forgotten, and the 'unmasking' shows them to be the tough and true creatures that Gandalf became so fond of so long ago.
Indeed! So not only was the conspiracy unmasked, so was the true nature of hobbits.

I could just imagine Fatty Bolger being left behind. I'm sure he wanted so much to go with them, but he chose to face the dangers that will be left behind as Frodo and the rest leaves. This act of his might not be given as much importance as the deeds of the other hobbits, but it is filled with loyalty and selflessness. He deserves as much praise as the others for this.

Finally, this chapter gives a sense of safety for the hobbits, while all the time there is an air of mystery around the dangers they would encounter next. If I could say so, this is the deep breath before the plunge.
Lhunardawen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2004, 10:35 PM   #35
Lyta_Underhill
Haunted Halfling
 
Lyta_Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 844
Lyta_Underhill has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
I could just imagine Fatty Bolger being left behind. I'm sure he wanted so much to go with them, but he chose to face the dangers that will be left behind as Frodo and the rest leaves. This act of his might not be given as much importance as the deeds of the other hobbits, but it is filled with loyalty and selflessness. He deserves as much praise as the others for this.
Actually, I remember that Fatty had no desire to leave the Shire and was telling the other hobbits that he hoped he didn't have to send in a rescue party to the Old Forest before the day was out! He was probably glad he didn't have to go in there! I don't think he had truly thought out how dangerous his part would turn out to be, but he certainly finds out soon enough! I find it ironic that Fredegar (Fatty no longer by the end of it!) has quite a hard time of it, not only with the impersonation of Frodo at Crickhollow, but with the invasion of ruffians that came after! (But I'm getting WAAAAY ahead of myself here...)

Cheers!
Lyta
__________________
“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”
Lyta_Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 01:41 AM   #36
Fingolfin II
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Fingolfin II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
Posts: 1,039
Fingolfin II has just left Hobbiton.
Originally posted by Estelyn Telcontar:

Quote:
He misses out on the journey and its adventures, but he is not belittled for staying behind and doing what he is capable of doing there for his friends. That reminds me of Aragorn's generous dealings with those soldiers who are too afraid to go to the Black Gate with him - he gives them a task that is within their strength to accomplish and does not condemn them for their cowardice.
I totally agree. Fatty Bolger's 'hobbitish' sense of staying put, yet firm resilience and loyalty to his friends is shown here. Don't forget that he has the job of raising the people in the Shire and facing the terror of the Nazgul-

Quote:
....little did they know how dangerous that job would be.
I certainly would not like to be in his shoes there.

For me, this chapter was not extremely interesting, though later on it appealed to me when I saw Sam unmasked as the 'conspirator' and when I saw him pledge his loyalty and solidarity to Frodo, the simpleness of it just touched me. Here are three young hobbits who blindly support their older friend through perils and danger that only Frodo really comprehends at this stage. This encapsulates Gandalf's observations on hobbits and seems to be the core characteristic that Tolkien protrays in all the hobbit characters- that though they may be slow and greedy, that they are all essentially good people (yes, even Lotho!). Frodo's description of the pity he feels for Lotho just before Saruman dies really sums up the case of the Sackville-Bagginses; that they are greedy, yet they are not wicked- just blind to the outside world and sometimes to their own desire.

On the subject of Frodo's dream of Gandalf-

Quote:
It seemed to Frodo that the riders came straight towards him; but even as they passed over him and beat him to the ground, he thought in his heart: ‘I am not here; they cannot hurt me. There is something here that I must see’. He lifted his head and saw a white horse leap the wall and stride towards him. On it rode a grey mantled figure: his white hair was streaming, and his cloak flew like wings behind him. As the grey rider bore down upon him he strove to see his face. the light grew in the sky and suddenly there was a noise of thunder.
This, along with his other dream, are very symbolic (duh!). I don't think this can be called foreshadowing, as it happens in the present, but his other dream (as well as the one in Bombadil's house) certainly is. I'm not sure how Frodo sees this vision of Gandalf, but I certainly think you're on the right track with that special 'pyschic' bond Frodo has with Gandalf, as well as greater perception and vision than most other hobbits that I know of.

What I enjoyed about this chapter most though- besides the pledges of loyalty to Frodo- were the simple, forthright behaviour of the hobbits, and their treatment of each other as friends, without thought to the task ahead, taking one thing at a time. I too have a passion for mushrooms!
__________________
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Fingolfin II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2004, 02:07 AM   #37
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,256
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwende
Bucca means "male deer" or "he-goat" and appears to have been the name of a regional chieftain, as in the name Buckingham
I'm still holding out for the 'folkloric' explanation!
Quote:
Buccas, also known as Buckaboos, are of two sorts, white buccas & black buccas. they are cornish sea sprites or demons. The word is connected with the English Puck, but a bucca is adicted more to malevolent mishchief than to the good natured sort. (From 'In Search of Lost Gods: A Guide to British Folklore, by Ralph Whitlock
My feeling still, is that Tolkien is attempting to recreate England's lost mythology, by constructing 'explanations' for half forgotten traditions - little people, who seem to disappear at will into the earth, etc.

Quote:
the name "Brandreth" means "burnt clearing" in Old English. Does this suggest a burnt clearing in amongst their friends, the trees of the Old Forest? Maybe I'm imagining too much!
I know this is becoming a favoured explanation, but my problem with it is that the Brandybucks were already called by that name before they began their 'scorched earth' policy against the Old Forest. The name, imo, relates to the river - there's something about the 'elvish' river itself which earned it the name, & the Oldbucks changed their name to Brandybuck because of their geographical relationship to it. Does anyone know if the elvish name Baranduin pre existed the name Brandybuck? Obvioously in terms of Middle earth history it did, but did Tolkien invent the elvish name to give a derivation for the hobbit surname, or was it the other way around? Perhaps its as simple as a philologist wishing to show how an apparently 'nonsense' name like 'Brandywine' could have an interesting derivation, if pursued back to its origin'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FingolfinII
I'm not sure how Frodo sees this vision of Gandalf, but I certainly think you're on the right track with that special 'pyschic' bond Frodo has with Gandalf, as well as greater perception and vision than most other hobbits that I know of.
Of course, that version of the dream at Crickhollow was discarded, as in the end Tolkien changed the events of the story & had Gandalf imprisoned by Saruman rather than trapped in one of the Elf Towers by the Black Riders. Its interesting that the idea of Gandalf being imprisoned in some form of tower/castle survives, going through various manifestations - either trapped by Black riders in an Elf Tower, or by Giant Treebeard, or by Saruman - as if Tolkien 'knew' he'd been trapped by someone, somewhere, but had to work out the details. Of course, by the time of this dream Gandalf had already escaped from whatever prison it was to be - Gandalf escaped from Orthanc on Sept 18th & Frodo dreams this dream on the night of the 25th. I think iIremember reading somewhere in HoME, though, that originally Frodo was to dream of the event as it was actuallly happening, which would increase the strength of the 'psychic' link between them.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 05:30 PM   #38
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,529
Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Estelyn Telcontar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
This is another fairly brief, transitional chapter. Though it takes place in a safe haven, all involved know that it is only temporarily so.

This is the place to gather information about the history of the Brandybucks and Buckland - an unusual branch of the Hobbits, we are told. First of all, they liked water and some could swim; secondly, they kept their doors locked at night, since the border area was more susceptible to strange 'visitors'. The Reader's Companion gives an interesting bit of information about the founder of the family. His name, Gorhendad, is Welsh for 'great-grandfather'.

After getting to know the happy-go-lucky Pippin on the way to Crickhollow, this chapter aquaints us with Merry and his ability to organize things, to grasp connections and act on short notice. Introducing them seperately this way helps to distinguish them; I found it hard to figure out which was which at first in the movie.

Merry tells his companions (and us readers) that Farmer Maggot knows more than he shows; if he really went into the Old Forest, he was more adventurous than we would expect! We do know (from the Tom Bombadil poems) that he kept in contact with Bombadil - I wonder, which of them kept the other in touch with the wide world?!

We have a brief foreshadowing of things to come here in the account of Fatty Bolger's plans to stay in the cottage and play Frodo to keep up pretences.

The chapter closes with Frodo's dream - an interesting subject for thought and discussion.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2008, 02:54 AM   #39
Legate of Amon Lanc
A Voice That Gainsayeth
 
Legate of Amon Lanc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,162
Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.Legate of Amon Lanc has passed beneath the Argonath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
Merry tells his companions (and us readers) that Farmer Maggot knows more than he shows; if he really went into the Old Forest, he was more adventurous than we would expect! We do know (from the Tom Bombadil poems) that he kept in contact with Bombadil - I wonder, which of them kept the other in touch with the wide world?!
Both, I believe, each in his own way. What I thought when reading this was that Farmer Maggot is a prototype of a Hobbit who looks far beyond his own Hobbit-hole and fields. I remembered Gandalf's words in the Quest for Erebor, when he explains why he chose Bilbo and started to think about hobbits in the first place:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT
They had begun to forget: forget their own beginnings and legends, forget what little they had known about the greatness of the world. It was not yet gone, but it was getting buried: the memory of the high and the perilous. But you cannot teach that sort of thing to a whole people quickly. There was not time. And anyway you must begin at some point, with some one person. I dare say he was "chosen" and I was only chosen to choose him; but I picked out Bilbo.
With all respect to old Mr. Baggins, I believe Farmer Maggot was a case of a Hobbit who did not forget yet. Not that he would know the tale of Gil-Galad or things like that, but as I said, he "saw further and deeper" (to borrow words that don't belong here at all ) that most of the hobbits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esty
We have a brief foreshadowing of things to come here in the account of Fatty Bolger's plans to stay in the cottage and play Frodo to keep up pretences.
This time I caught myself being afraid for Fatty. Completely forgetting all I know about the future (but at the same time having in mind all I know about the Nazgul!), I was immersed in the story and thought "oh my, what if the Riders indeed come, you shouldn't joke about things like that, Pippin - what a horror!" Isn't this also saying something about the spell of Tolkien's work, being capable of taking the reader in even for second, third... (in my case about sixtieth ) time?

Nevertheless, you may notice that during most of the discussion, Fatty remains quiet. He asks about the mushrooms in the beginning and then, as all the conspiracy is being revealed, he is completely silent. One even wonders if he had his part in the conspiracy at all. And then, only at the very end of the chapter, Tolkien "remembers" there is some Fatty sitting silent at the table - or this is the impression it makes - and suddenly floods us with information about him. Not bad for remembering him, but when one already knows him and reads the previous text, he must get the feeling that he's gone invisible for the conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esty
The chapter closes with Frodo's dream - an interesting subject for thought and discussion.
Definitely. I caught myself thinking "and what the heck is that"? I am pretty sure, when I read it for the first time, that I thought "bah, some silly dream, give us more Black Riders or Elves". Soon, we are going to have one more dream - in Bombadil's house, and this time indeed visionary. But this sequence of Frodo's dreams begs for a question - why did it happen? And a question about this dream in particular - why do you think it ended the way it ended? I mean, yes (with little foreshadowing), Merry was banging on the door and awakened Frodo. That can even appear in the dream as the thunder, and the light in the sky may be connected with it (as, even though Merry had light with him, he was outside the door, so his light has no connection with the light in Frodo's dream). But still, I always had the feeling that there was also inner reason, inside the dream, why Frodo couldn't reach the tower - it made the impression that some Power stopped Frodo. "You cannot pass!" "Not this time! You cannot see the Sea yet!" Thunder. Clash. Something like that.
As for the "setting" of the dream, this also raises one question. Are we talking the White Towers here; resp. one of them, or something else? The thing is, the tower stood there "all alone", while there were three towers on Emyn Beraid. But maybe this is simply the dream logic - in any case, the appearance of the tower is quite explainable by Frodo's subconscious - earlier, we were told that the Hobbits knew about the Towers, and sometimes in fair weather they could see them, and said that one can look at the Sea from there.

I also consider important that we learn something more about Frodo this way - that he often dreamt about the sea, resp. its sound. This puts him in the line of "many Children of Ilúvatar who hearken still to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen" (Ainulindalë). Yet, Frodo never heard the sound itself. Now that is strange. How comes? Did his knowledge of this sound depend only on the visions (erm... hearions? ) in his dreams, or did he, for example, earlier meet an Elf who told him about the sound and with the Elven gift, when he spoke, Frodo indeed heard the sound?
__________________
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
Legate of Amon Lanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 04:27 PM   #40
Rumil
Sage & Onions
 
Rumil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 887
Rumil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Eye Merry and the Nazgul timebomb

Hi all,

(slowly catching up with Esty!)

This chapter highlights Merry as the leader of the Hobbits. OK, Frodo is technically leader of the gang, but from here till Bree, Merry is the effective boss. Now this is not to be wondered at because he is on 'home territory', however, there is more than this involved. Merry is the heir to Buckland, if the hobbits were more feudal he could be styled Prince Meriadoc, heir apparent to the throne of Buckland! In other words he is second-in-command of the whole province.

Naturally he shows his leadership and has 'made all the arrangements' in Crickhollow etc. But what does 'The Master of the Hall' think of his son and heir disappearing off into the Blue with the second 'Mad Baggins'? Was he even told?

Secondly the hobbits seem quite casual in the face of the 'Nazgul timebomb'. The Nazgul know their location, and could be just around the corner.

Quote:
The gate-guards would not let them through by night, though they might break through
Indeed they decide to have a good bath and a slap up meal instead of hightailing it ASAP. As Legolas said later, this is enough to prove they are hobbits!

On Fatty Bolger, well I wouldn't fancy staying in Crickhollow one little bit with the Nazgul creeping up my garden path thank you very much! I wonder if Fatty decided to stay at home partly because he was afraid of slowing the rest down, being likely quite unfit.

As a final note, I find myself yping Crickhowell for Crickhollow all the time!
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion
Rumil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:09 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.