The Firstborn?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alaklondewen · 03-24-2002, 01:54 PM

I'm reading The Silmarillion for the first time. Since reading Of Aule and Yavanna, the seven fathers of the Dwarves has really been on my mind. I know Iluvatar intended for the Elves to be the Firstborn, but did he not give the Dwarves their own minds, separate of Aule, before the coming of the Elves. Even if the Dwarves were "asleep" until the Firstborn awoke, doesn't it still technically make the Dwarves the first? I know, I'm probably thinking too much of it, but does anyone have thoughts on the subject?

Kalimac · 03-24-2002, 02:46 PM

I've wondered that too (also reading the Silmarillion for the first time). Though did Iluvatar give the Dwarves their minds or did they just develop that way? He tells Aule that "they would not shrink from you" if they did not have their own minds, but I don't remember him specifically breathing independent life into them, so to speak.

The only explanation I can think of is that the Dwarves were not, technically, finished when they were "put to sleep" - they hadn't learned their language yet and were still very unclear in their understanding. Maybe you could think of it as being like a pregnancy - the Dwarves were started before the Elves, but weren't "born" (released from their caves, given language and so forth) until after the Elves. And since date of birth is more important in the world than the date of conception, the Elves would still be the Firstborn.

Or of course Iluvatar could just have meant "The Elves will still be the Firstborn because I want it that way." Sort of along the lines of "This has been willed where what is willed must be."

alaklondewen · 03-24-2002, 03:13 PM

Interesting...
I guess the reason I assumed Iluvatar gave the Dwarves their own thought was this.

Quote:

For thou has from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle.

Aule doesn't have the power to give them their own minds. I guessed Iluvatar was the only one who could do so. Aule offered the Dwarves to Iluvatar, and he accepts them.

Kuruharan · 03-24-2002, 04:51 PM

Yes, Iluvatar gave the Dwarves life. I think the distinction is that the Elves were created by Iluvatar before Aule made the Dwarves, even though the Fathers of the Dwarves were briefly awake before the Elves.
The Elves were also the first to permanently wake.
And, since they were writing the history they could call themselves whatever they wanted, one of the advantages of writing the history yourself. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Kalimac · 03-24-2002, 07:00 PM

You're right - sorry about that, I didn't have the book in front of me and had forgotten that bit. Iluvatar did give them life, then.

And of course, like you pointed out, this is *Elvish* mythology. What do you suppose the Dwarvish version of the story would be? It would probably lean a lot less on the "Children of my adoption and children of my choice" angle, that's for sure.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-25-2002, 02:22 AM

I've no doubt the Dwarves have a completely different rendition of history! But they did not have the benefit of living in Valinor with the Valar, so the official version of the Elves is probably more accurate. Or at least more complete from the beginning.

I think the firstborn are called that because they were firstborn in the song of Iluvitar and the Ainur. If you think about it, the dwarves were made in the image of the elves, even though they woke to consciousness first. So that makes the elves firstborn either way.

-Maril

alaklondewen · 03-25-2002, 08:52 AM

Thanks to everyone! I guess I never thought about the different angles between the Elves and Dwarves. I see what you mean about the Elves being created before the Dwarves, even though the Dwarves were awake temporarily.

thanks again, my mind is a little more at ease [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: alaklondewen ]

the guy who be short · 01-31-2003, 05:35 AM

the word firstborn means (duh) the first to be born
so really, should it be the valar, rather than either dwarves or elves, who were the firstborn?
or if eru was not immortal, and was somehow "born" (or as born as a god can get!) wouldnt he technically be the firstborn?
an if it wasnt eru or the valar, it would be the maia! so really neither elves nor dwarves are the firstborn!

Lyra Greenleaf · 01-31-2003, 01:08 PM

Im guessing that Illuvatar and the Valar were just there, they werent 'born'.

The elves must have been counted firstborn because they were created in the music of Illuvatar, while the dwarves werent

Legolas · 01-31-2003, 01:20 PM

No. Eru was never born - he always was, is, and always will be. He created the Valar in his thought. They were not "born" in the way we are. 'Firstborn' is a term referring to those beings that were first born in Arda. Elves and men were known as the Children of Iluvatar, and the elves, being the first to awake of these, were called the Firstborn.

03-24-2002, 01:54 PM	#1
alaklondewen Song of Seregon Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Following the road less traveled Posts: 1,201	The Firstborn?? I'm reading The Silmarillion for the first time. Since reading Of Aule and Yavanna, the seven fathers of the Dwarves has really been on my mind. I know Iluvatar intended for the Elves to be the Firstborn, but did he not give the Dwarves their own minds, separate of Aule, before the coming of the Elves. Even if the Dwarves were "asleep" until the Firstborn awoke, doesn't it still technically make the Dwarves the first? I know, I'm probably thinking too much of it, but does anyone have thoughts on the subject? __________________ At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!

03-24-2002, 02:46 PM	#2
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I've wondered that too (also reading the Silmarillion for the first time). Though did Iluvatar give the Dwarves their minds or did they just develop that way? He tells Aule that "they would not shrink from you" if they did not have their own minds, but I don't remember him specifically breathing independent life into them, so to speak. The only explanation I can think of is that the Dwarves were not, technically, finished when they were "put to sleep" - they hadn't learned their language yet and were still very unclear in their understanding. Maybe you could think of it as being like a pregnancy - the Dwarves were started before the Elves, but weren't "born" (released from their caves, given language and so forth) until after the Elves. And since date of birth is more important in the world than the date of conception, the Elves would still be the Firstborn. Or of course Iluvatar could just have meant "The Elves will still be the Firstborn because I want it that way." Sort of along the lines of "This has been willed where what is willed must be." __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-24-2002, 04:51 PM	#4
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,685	Yes, Iluvatar gave the Dwarves life. I think the distinction is that the Elves were created by Iluvatar before Aule made the Dwarves, even though the Fathers of the Dwarves were briefly awake before the Elves. The Elves were also the first to permanently wake. And, since they were writing the history they could call themselves whatever they wanted, one of the advantages of writing the history yourself. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-24-2002, 07:00 PM	#5
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	You're right - sorry about that, I didn't have the book in front of me and had forgotten that bit. Iluvatar did give them life, then. And of course, like you pointed out, this is Elvish mythology. What do you suppose the Dwarvish version of the story would be? It would probably lean a lot less on the "Children of my adoption and children of my choice" angle, that's for sure. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-25-2002, 02:22 AM	#6
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	I've no doubt the Dwarves have a completely different rendition of history! But they did not have the benefit of living in Valinor with the Valar, so the official version of the Elves is probably more accurate. Or at least more complete from the beginning. I think the firstborn are called that because they were firstborn in the song of Iluvitar and the Ainur. If you think about it, the dwarves were made in the image of the elves, even though they woke to consciousness first. So that makes the elves firstborn either way. -Maril __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-25-2002, 08:52 AM	#7
alaklondewen Song of Seregon Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Following the road less traveled Posts: 1,201	Thanks to everyone! I guess I never thought about the different angles between the Elves and Dwarves. I see what you mean about the Elves being created before the Dwarves, even though the Dwarves were awake temporarily. thanks again, my mind is a little more at ease [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: alaklondewen ] __________________ At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!

01-31-2003, 05:35 AM	#8
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,496	the word firstborn means (duh) the first to be born so really, should it be the valar, rather than either dwarves or elves, who were the firstborn? or if eru was not immortal, and was somehow "born" (or as born as a god can get!) wouldnt he technically be the firstborn? an if it wasnt eru or the valar, it would be the maia! so really neither elves nor dwarves are the firstborn!

01-31-2003, 01:08 PM	#9
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,180	Im guessing that Illuvatar and the Valar were just there, they werent 'born'. The elves must have been counted firstborn because they were created in the music of Illuvatar, while the dwarves werent __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

01-31-2003, 01:20 PM	#10
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	No. Eru was never born - he always was, is, and always will be. He created the Valar in his thought. They were not "born" in the way we are. 'Firstborn' is a term referring to those beings that were first born in Arda. Elves and men were known as the Children of Iluvatar, and the elves, being the first to awake of these, were called the Firstborn. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.