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Old 01-17-2019, 04:29 AM   #1
Huinesoron
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Narmer the Numenorean

Fact: J.R.R. Tolkien stated that the Fourth Age began approximately 6000 years ago, ca. 4000 BC.

Fact: Archaeological evidence shows that Eurasia was in the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age at this point. There is no direct evidence of a pseudo-medieval, metal-using, horse-riding culture like Gondor. However:

Fact: There is some evidence of horse domestication from 4000-3500 BC in Ukraine, which most maps would place in Mordor. This lines up with the beginning of trade with Gondor and Rohan.

Fact: Around 3250 BC (4th Age 750), an 'abrupt cold and wet snap' called the Piora Oscillation took place in Europe and Asia. The causes are debated, but there is suggestion that a volcanic eruption or a meteor strike could have triggered it.

Repeated fact: There is now no evidence that Gondor and Rohan ever existed.

Fact: The first Pharoah of Egypt, Narmer, took power ca. 3100 BC. His titles included 'Lord of the Two Lands' and 'Uniter of Two Lands'. His ornate crown includes a flourish which could be seen as a highly stylised wing.

Fact: 'Narmer' is a valid Quenya name containing the element 'fire' (nar). The second half could be the verb 'to desire', or a truncated form of merca, 'wild'. His alternate name, 'Menes', is a valid Quenya name meaning 'youth who departs' (men-nese).

Speculation: I mean, is it even speculation now? Narmer Menes is the last young prince of Aragorn's line, who fled the cataclysm that erased Gondor and plunged the world into disarray. He founded a new (re)United Kingdom in northern Harad, recreating the lost Crown of Gondor as best he could. His names refer to his age when he fled, and to the wild fire (volcanic or meteoric) that took his homeland.

Supporting evidence: The second pharoah of the First Dynasty was Hor-Aha, 'impulsive rage' in Quenya. The city of Memphis, founded as his capital by Narmer, was known in Ancient Egyptian as 'the city of the White Walls' - an echo of Minas Tirith. The Egyptians famously adopted the Numenorean custom of preserving the dead. And the use of metal in Egypt 'immediately follows the unification of Lower and Upper Egypt' - Narmer brought it with him.

Conclusion: If the Legendarium were true (yes, yes, it's all fiction books, I know), there would be more than enough evidence to establish the First Dynasty of Egypt as direct successors to the Telcontar Dynasty of Gondor.

hS
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:17 PM   #2
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What about the theories that King Scorpion II and Narmer were one and the same person?

I think that would tend to undermine your theory a bit.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:10 AM   #3
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What about the theories that King Scorpion II and Narmer were one and the same person?

I think that would tend to undermine your theory a bit.
Unless one is his Quenya name and one his "vulgar?" ;-)
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:16 PM   #4
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Unless one is his Quenya name and one his "vulgar?" ;-)
True, but "Scorpion" is hardly a symbol in keeping with a Numenorean origin. I would submit that it suggests a Haradric provenance.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:31 AM   #5
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... or a title?

How's this for an idea: much in the same way as the children of the British crown receive titles to various places (from the Prince of Wales on down to the - what's Harry? - Duke of Sussex), King Elessar could have adopted the same approach for his children. The firstborn would probably be Prince of Arnor, but after that you get into smaller regions. One of the least important is a distant region of Harad, down on the southern reaches of a tributary of the Harnen. The youngest son - Narmer, in this case - was prince and sub-ruler of this land, which we now know as Upper Egypt.

So why 'Scorpion'? One option is that it's an insult from the moderately oppressed locals - he's 'the scorpion-prince from the north'. Once the Numenoreans took over fully, it changed in mythological form into a positive name.

The other option, and one that gels better with history, is that the Reunited Kingdom engaged in the age-old practice of marriage alliances. The young prince was given two names: one in Quenya (now forgotten), but also one in the Haradrin tongue of his mother.

Or even his father! I'm treating him as a son of the king, but given how far away Upper Egypt would be, he'd be more likely to be a nephew or more distant cousin. We have the Duke & Duchess of Kent, who are the Queen's cousins, and their eldest child is in line for the title.

I think I actually like this version more. Scorpion was born and raised in Upper Egypt, but still spent a lot of time in Minas Tirith. When the Cataclysm came, he inherited his father's title, and became Prince Scorpion. In what could be either a humanitarian effort or a war of conquest, he occupied and claimed the land to the north, which was hit by the Cataclysm (forming the Delta); there, hailed as heir to the now-lost Reunited Kingdom, he gained his new name of Narmer Menes, the Prince from Out of the Fire.

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Old 01-25-2019, 09:43 PM   #6
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If I had to pick a Numenorian dynasty in Harad it would be the Ptolemaics, but that implies a RL parallel to Gondor as opposed to the assumption that Gondor really existed as Gondor.

Wikipedia claims Narmer's name likely means "stinging/raging catfish". The first part can sort of fit with his Elvish name and Scorpion title. What does "catfish" mean? A variation of Scorpion? Egyptians would be able to tell the difference, that can't be it. Unless it's Gondorians who never saw Scorpions before and somehow decided the closest animal is catfish? If I accept this idea I also have to maintain that Gondor must have had very poor observational skills. So pray tell, what happened there? Linguistic corruption over the years? Misreading of the hieroglyphs by modern people? What were they supposed to mean initially?
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Old 01-27-2019, 01:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
If I had to pick a Numenorian dynasty in Harad it would be the Ptolemaics, but that implies a RL parallel to Gondor as opposed to the assumption that Gondor really existed as Gondor.
And Aragorn as Alexander? It works up to a point; he certainly invaded the right places. Of course, the other thing Alexander's famous for is dying young...

(It would also get rid of the annoying 'Egypt must have been founded by Europeans' theme this thread suffers from; to be clear, I definitely don't believe that, but in the Legendarium, civilisation descends from Numenor, so.)

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Wikipedia claims Narmer's name likely means "stinging/raging catfish". The first part can sort of fit with his Elvish name and Scorpion title. What does "catfish" mean? A variation of Scorpion? Egyptians would be able to tell the difference, that can't be it. Unless it's Gondorians who never saw Scorpions before and somehow decided the closest animal is catfish? If I accept this idea I also have to maintain that Gondor must have had very poor observational skills. So pray tell, what happened there? Linguistic corruption over the years? Misreading of the hieroglyphs by modern people? What were they supposed to mean initially?
The immediate explanation is that the Egyptians simply heard the name 'Narmer' as their own, similar word. This happened back in the First Age, when the Noldor all wound up with names that sounded like their Quenya names, but had different, or sometimes no, meanings. See also 'Kangaroo'.

If we want an actual explanation... well, Europeans are kind of famous for our terrible habit of saying 'eh, close enough' about species names. Possums, blackbirds, corn... not to mention the ones with weird modifiers. Is 'land catfish' any weirder than 'sea horse'?

Alternately, the original meaning was 'scorpion from the sea' - Scorpion for the name, and the sea part because that's what Gondor is now - just sea, out of which came Narmer. Then later, when they mythologised and separated Scorpion and Narmer, they looked at that name and said 'what's a sea scorpion? Must mean catfish!'

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