LotR3-RotK-Seq05

[alatar]

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. - Dune by Frank Herbert


Tea time for two, not three – that’s what Sam hopes in this next scene. Gollum informs the hobbit that there will be no tea on this stage of the journey. Frodo suddenly stops dead in his tracks – what?!? No tea? Somehow the thought of tea, or maybe just the sight of the evil-looking Gollum, make Frodo think that this is it. This is his last journey, and there will be no “back again.” Does he strictly mean physically, or does he also include his soul that the Ring is chewing away, and that by the end of the quest, no small piece of Frodo will remain?

Sam checks these morbid thoughts as the Shire theme plays. Frodo’s faithful servant promises that they too, like Bilbo, will return. I think that, from the expression on Sam’s face, that this may even apply to Frodo’s soul. Sméagol had no (or murdered his) Sam and so was lost.

Note that I like the change in scenery. It’s not jungle -but there are jungle-type sounds in the background, so I’m not exactly sure what kind of forest that we’re seeing here. But it’s good, nonetheless.

The three come upon a statue of a seated King, and it has been vandalized. Taggers existed even in Middle Earth… Just like in the books, off to the side they find the King’s head crowned once more, both with flowers and the rays of the westering sun. Hope springs eternal at the sight…that is until the clouds come, and the mood falls back down to Middle Earth. Gollum hastens them away as the darkness approaches.

I still note that they aren’t being very stealthy.

Back in Minas Tirith, Gandalf smokes on the balcony. Seems that even in the Third Age smoking was restricted to certain specified areas. Pippin examines his new costume and hopes that it’s all just play. Gandalf brings him up short, explaining to young Peregrin that he’s in the service now, and that he will be expected to do whatever is commanded of him.

By the by, is there a point to Gandalf’s sputtering with his pipe? Are we being given another clue to show that the White Wizard is becoming more feeble? I don’t remember any such problems when he smoked with Bilbo many days and miles back in the Shire. Or maybe the herb master gave him leaf that was too green. Pip brings the coughing old man a cup of water, and so has inadvertently taken a few steps closer to the realm of Mordor. Mount Doom booms in the distance, the only light in the sky. Pippin notes the quiet and the dark – no stars – and realizes that it’s “game on.” He speaks for me in that waiting sometimes is worse than the actual event, as there’s nothing to do except to imagine the millions of ways that the event will turn out poorly. Thankfully, PJ doesn’t try to yuck-up the scene, and it’s a touching moment as the old wizard leans next to the small hobbit.

Pippin in this scene is even thoughtful enough to ask of Frodo and the Quest. Not much hope there, but Gandalf states that it was only a fool’s hope. Which is just why it might work. That’s not only a literary device, where a foolish plan is so silly that it confounds the wise, but at times it bears out in practice. From my own experience: I’ve played on volleyball teams where it was a group of people that decided that they should play together for a specific weekend tournament. Our team played opposite disciplined college teams, and you’d expect, on paper, that our ragtag team would be at a large disadvantage. But no, we routinely did the unexpected (sometimes by design, but mostly due to lack of ability ), and so would screw up the opposing team, who wouldn’t be expecting our miss-plays. They’d trained to take on very disciplined teams so much that our more chaotic style took them out of their game. We won.

Sauron expected to be attacked by a large army lead by a new Ring Lord. He could handle that. But to sneak the Ring into Mordor via a witless Hobbit and his gardener with the goal of destroying it? It’s so foolish that it just might work. Go Gandalf!

Note that here Minas Tirith, unlike in the magical realm of Rivendell, balconies are made higher than an elven knee.

Gandalf narrates the grand plan of Sauron while we see the forces approaching. Gandalf, I think, paints a bleak picture as I assume he wants Pip to jump. Even when Pippin states that surely a wizard on this side of the ledger should be an asset, Gandalf simply turns his head. Was he afraid that others might be listening and so does not want to tip them off to the extent of the power hidden beneath his cloak? Or has Ian already filmed the dreaded Witch-King confrontation scene and so knows that, for him, all is lost? This lack of confidence, while a great Gotcha! by PJ, is just too much. Doesn’t Gandalf wear Narya to inspire the Free Folk? Isn’t he THE opponent of Sauron? Is the wizard sliding into the pit of despair? Does he see Minas Tirith’s doom because, well, Pip’s here and so he knows it’s going to get ugly?

Gandalf again narrates as we see Mordor’s new product line – the Witch King version 2.0, complete with all new accessories (available in toy stores now!). Is that a Helm of Wizard Warding that is placed on his invisible head? Now I assume that this is one of the same Nine that Arwen drowned two movies ago, and so I’m not sure why Gandalf fears the leader of Sauron’s armies so much (hint to Gandalf: flood the Anduin! If it worked once…) We learn that this is a foe that “no living man can kill.” That, if you think about it, doesn’t limit the possible contenders for the Witch-King’s head very much. Not “living man” includes dead men, elves, dwarves, hobbits, women, animals, large rocks, horses, mûmakil, carnivorous rabbits, Ents, etc. Likewise, Gandalf is a wizard, and though he looks human and male, has died at least once, and so surely that puts him in the ‘can kill the Witch-King’ set.

We’re not told why Gandalf, who owned a Balrog, would fear this adversary that was chased away by Aragorn holding a sword and a flaming brand. If the Witch-King were powered up, as some say, then we’re not told much about it and are left to our imaginings/musings as the narration turns to the Witch-King’s lair – Minas Morgul.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

If the Witch-King were powered up, as some say, then we’re not told much about it and are left to our imaginings/musings as the narration turns to the Witch-King’s lair – Minas Morgul.

Actually, I thought that the scene of the Witch-King preparing for battle, together with Gandalf's narration, is a very effective way of portraying, on film, the "added demonic force" that Sauron imbues him with for the attack on Gondor. Certainly, I think that the audience is left with the clear impression that the Witch-King is now a far more dangerous adversary than he was in the first film.

I wonder whether the writers had in mind Tolkien's letter that refers to the "added demonic force", or whether it was simply essential to convey this for the purposes of the Witch-King's characterisation on film (and their version of that highly controversial subsequent encounter with Gandalf).

[alatar]

Okay, here's what bothers me (I know, one of the many things ): When we see the Witch-King being powered up or suited up or whatever, Gandalf says, "Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant." It makes it seem, to those not paying attention, or paying too much attention to their dates, that this is some new bad guy. But shortly after that, Gandalf says, "You've met him before...He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop." These two statements seems contradictory. Maybe a few more words, like, "And now he is more powerful than ever," would be helpful.

I know that many of you see this scene and say that this is evidence that the Witch-King is more powerful. But what of Gandalf in Fangorn? And a new hat doesn't impress me.

[Essex]

Hang on guys. We've got a few more scenes before we reach the 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad' argument we're gonna have (again!) regarding Gandalf and the Witch King!

[alatar]

Note that, for THE SCENE, I've considered just linking to the thread that discusses the same, as I'm guessing that I haven't much more to say, and nothing to unsay.

[Essex]

fair point, but we're also discussing here the merits of cinematography, music etc - not just the blasphemy that took place on this scene

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

fair point, but we're also discussing here the merits of cinematography, music etc - not just the blasphemy that took place on this scene

I will try to remove the blinders from my eyes. We'll see how it goes. I'll drink a few cups of 'Calm' and up the dose of Tylenol.

Did anyone else want to see the Witch-King, as he prepared for the ultimate battle, don goggles with his flight helmet?

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

The three come upon a statue of a seated King, and it has been vandalized. Taggers existed even in Middle Earth… Just like in the books, off to the side they find the King’s head crowned once more, both with flowers and the rays of the westering sun. Hope springs eternal at the sight…that is until the clouds come, and the mood falls back down to Middle Earth. Gollum hastens them away as the darkness approaches.

one of my favourite passages in the whole book LOTR. and the film delivers well too. little things seem to grate me most though throughout these movies rather than big changes, and we have one here. It's Frodo who should see the light shine on the fallen king's statue but movie wise we have Sam. Still a lovely scene though. It's like other small changes, Aragorn asking Theoden to ride out, frodo asking Gandalf what friend was in Elvish etc- if only these small changes weren't made. ah well......

By the by, is there a point to Gandalf’s sputtering with his pipe?

one of the commentaries points out that we have an anti smoking bit here to keep the anti smoking parade happy. i remember back in the fotr commentaries that these mused on gandalf just chewing gum or tobacco instead of smoking it!!!!

Pippin in this scene is even thoughtful enough to ask of Frodo and the Quest. Not much hope there, but Gandalf states that it was only a fool’s hope.

beautifull delivered lines here. I remember in the TT dvd extra when they showed this line it left a tear in my eye.

Note that here Minas Tirith, unlike in the magical realm of Rivendell, balconies are made higher than an elven knee.

this is a city of men, not hobbits. We could surmise that Elrond had some hobbit size balconies built in rivendell for visiting hobbits. I mean Bilbo was there 60 years ago, and went back to stay there 17 years ago. You should see how much my house has changed in 15 years I've lived here!! Why can't the elves do a bit of DIY for Bilbo and other hobbits?


re witch king.......

We’re not told why Gandalf, who owned a Balrog, would fear this adversary that was chased away by Aragorn holding a sword and a flaming brand. If the Witch-King were powered up, as some say, then we’re not told much about it and are left to our imaginings/musings as the narration turns to the Witch-King’s lair – Minas Morgul.

as the commentaries tell us - movie wise we have no other real big baddie other than the Witch King. so they had to build him up. And it ties in with Tolkien's view in his Letters that the WK has been given increased 'demonic' powers.

Again I point to LOTR not being just black and white. It is shades of grey. Just because Gandalf beat the Balrog doesn't mean he's gonna beat another adversary (even if it IS weaker)

I mean come on - on paper you Americans should have beaten us Europeans at the Ryder Cup but we absolutely wiped the flor with you!!!!!

PS thanks to your American team for the sporting way you played this time at the Ryder Cup - I've even forgiven Tom Lehman for his antics at Brookline some years ago!!!!!! very gracious in defeat. But you guys have to learn to smile and enjoy yourself when playing golf!!!!!

[Trotter]

I found it odd, upon first viewing the film, when Gandalf tells Pippin. "He
stabbed Frodo on Weathertop," when the name 'Weather Top' was never heard in FOTR. Several people in the theater said, "what's weathertop?"

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Yeah, that's true, Trotter. I always find that funny that Weathertop is never mentioned in FOTR, but mentioned two times in ROTK.

So what do you guys think about smoking in the films? I never thought a thing about it until I read Michael Martinez's vehement condemnation of it. Martinez (a practical Tolkien scholar, for those of you who haven't read his stuff) says the tobacco use is "reprehensible" and that there is no justification for it.

Incidentally, I don't smoke, will never smoke, and believe that smoking kills, but I don't see anything wrong with the inclusion of galenas-use in the films. What say you?

[Trotter]

I've never had a problem with it, though my opinions about smoking are the same as yours. Tolkien's characters smoked pipes, so it was only logical for PJ to have them in his films. They are, basically, part of the characters themselves and I couldn't imagine either the Hobbits, or Gandalf without one.

[alatar]

Can't see what the big deal is. Smoking pipes was a part of the story, like elves and mugs of ale, and so why PJ would exclude it is beyond me. Like stated, I too do not smoke, and really dislike the entire practice, but if that's what others choose to do...

My children have watched all three movies and I don't think that the smoking scenes made any impression, unlike the riding of horses .

[Rikae]

Note that here Minas Tirith, unlike in the magical realm of Rivendell, balconies are made higher than an elven knee.

Leaping to the movie's defense: I don't suppose elves really need railings, so the ones in Rivendell are probably just decorative.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Leaping to the movie's defense: I don't suppose elves really need railings, so the ones in Rivendell are probably just decorative.

Elves need railings too, but a low railing would be dangerous as taller folk would tend to trip, going head first into the falls. We can say that the room was designed with Hobbit-folk in mind, but Hobbits, with the exception of some of Sam's kin, weren't 'big' on heights, and so most likely would prefer a hole than a great view.

Truly a minor point, but made obvious as the Frodo in Rivendell picture made it into popular magazines as seen here.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Just guessing here, but the difference in railings between Rivendell and Minas Tirith could be a subtle hint from the filmmakers. I don't think they'd make hobbit-sized railings in FOTR without a good reason. The reason may be to emphasize the contrast between the two places; Rivendell is a cozy, accommodating refuge; while Minas Tirith is a besieged fortress that has no room for indulging hobbit-folk with railings that are just the right size.

Or maybe it's just an honest mistake. Who knows?