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Old 02-03-2001, 06:33 PM   #1
Tar Elenion
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Starting with the simplest:

(Note FN = 'father name', MN = 'mother name', AN = 'aftername'); I have left out certain variant spellings of names and some of the very old ones such as Lost Tales variants (eg Tinwelint for Elwe or Turondo for Turgon).)

The House of Ingwe
The names of Ingwe's parents are unknown.
Ingwe had a sister. In HoME 10 she is Indis who later wed Finwe. In HoME 12 she is not named but Indis is her daughter (and thus Ingwe's niece).
The name of Ingwe's wife is unknown.
Ingwe is attested to as having an unspecified number of children (HoME 10) of which only one is named.
This was a son whose name went through various incarnations.
The last was Ingwion as noted in HoME 11. This was changed from Ingwiel (see also HoME 5). Earlier he was nmed Ingil and Ingwil (see HoME 4). What could be interesting is keeping the abandoned names as other children of Ingwe.


The House of Finwe:
The names of Finwe's parents are not known.
Finwe Noleme Noldoran had two wives.
The first was Miriel Serinde (her parents are not named).
She bore Finwe one son: Kurufinwe Feanaro (Feanor).
Feanor had to wife Nerdanel.
Nerdanel's father is commonly named Mahtan but also named Sarmo and Urundil (HoME 12). Her mother is not named.
Feanor and Nerdanel had seven children.
1). Maedhros (also named: Nelyafinwe (FN), Nelyo (FN), Maitimo (MN), Maedron (MN) and Russandol (AN)(HoME 12)) was the eldest. He was unmarried.
2). Maglor (also named Kanafinwe (FN), Kano (FN), Makalaure (MN) and Maelor (HoME 10 and 12)). He was wedded but his wife is not named.
3). Celegorm (Turkafinwe (FN), Turko (FN) and Tyelkormo (MN) and Celegorn (HoME 11 and 12)). He had no wife.
4). Curufin (Kurufinwe (FN), Kurvo (FN) and Atarinke (MN) (HoME 12)). He had an unnamed wife, who remained in Amn (HoME 12). Their son was Celebrimbor (Celebrinbaur, Tyelpinquar (HoME 12)).
5). Caranthir (Morifinwe (FN), Moryo (FN) and Carnistir (MN) (HoME 12). He was married but his wife is not named (HoME 12).
6 or 7). Amrod (Pityafinwe (FN), Pityo (FN) Ambarussa (MN) Umbarto (MN) and Ambarto (Ambarto was changed from Umbarto by Feanor) (HoME 12)). He was not wed.
7 or 6). Amras (Telufinwe (FN), Telvo (FN), Ambarussa (MN) HoME 12)). He had no wife.
Note that Amrod and Amras were twins (HoME 12) and JRRT reversed their birth positions (so that Amrod should be last), which might indicate that their father names (FN) should be switched (Telufinwe means 'Last Finwe'). Amrod was burned to death at Losgar when Feanor set the white ships of the Teleri on fire (HoME 12).
Gil-galad is noted as a descendent of Feanor in HoME 5 and in some drafts of LotR (see HoME 6 and 7). His parantage is not stated.

Finwe's second wife was Indis. Her parents are not named, but she is the sister of Ingwe (in HoME 10) or the daughter of his sister (HoME 12). They had five (HoME 10) or four (HoME 12) children.
Findis, a daughter, is first. She did not leave Valinor and dwelt among the Vanyar (HoME 10 and 12).
Fingolfin (Nolofinwe (FN), Arakano (MN) Finwenolofinwe (AN) and Ingoldo (abandoned MN) (HoME 10 and 12)) was second. He had Anaire to wife, she remained in Aman (HoME 11 and 12). They had four children.
Fingon (Finicano, Findicano, Findecano (HoME 12)). He is noted as having a wife (unnamed) and two children Erien (Ernis) and Finbor (HoMe 12). He is noted as having a son, Findor Gil-galad (HoME 11). He is noted as having neither wife nor child (HoME 12).
He is noted as having a son, Findobar (Findabar) (HoME 5).
Turgon (Turukano). His wife was Elenwe of the Vanyar (who died on the Helcarxe). They had one child, a daughter, Idril (Itaril, Itarille, Itarilde (HoME 12), Irilde (HoME 11)) Celebrindal (AN). She wed Tuor and their son was Earendil (FN) Ardamire (MN), who wed Elwing of the House of Elwe. There children are Elrond (who wedded Celbrian daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel) and Elros.
Aredhel Ar-Feiniel (Irisse, Ireth, Isfin, HoME 11, 12 et al) was Fingolfin's third child. She was taken to wife by Eol (who was kin (unspecified) to Elwe). They had one son, Maeglin (FN) Lomion (MN) (HoME 11).
Arakano was Fingolfin's youngest, he died at the Battle of Lammoth (HoME 12)
Irime (FN) (Irien, Finvain (FN)) Lalwende (Lalwen) (MN) (HoME 10 and 12) was Finwe's second daughter (HoME 12). She went into exile with Fingolfin. Her ultimate fate is not recorded. (Note that orginally she was the third daughter (HoME 10) but JRRT reversed this).
Finarfin (Arafinwe (FN), Ingoldo (MN replacing Ingalaure), Finwe-arafinwe (AN) (HoME 12)). He wed Earwen daughter of Olwe. They had five or four (HoME 12) children.
1). Finrod Felagund (AN) (Findarato (FN), Ingoldo (MN), Artafinde (FN) (HoME 12) Inglor (HoME 11 et.al.). He had no wife. But variously he had a son, Artanaro Rhodothir (Orodreth) (HoME 12) or he had to wife Meril of Eglorest and their son was Gil-galad (HoME 11). Or he had an unnamed wife and and their son was Finellach (FN) Gil-galad (AN) (HoME 12). In one version Galadriel (not in keeping with LotR or RGEO) and Gil-galad were both his children (HoME 12). Gil-galad is mentioned as his son elsewhere in HoME as well.
2 or not at all). Orodreth (Rodreth, Artaresto) was the second son of Finarfin (HoME 10 and 11 et al). He had a daughter named Finduilas.
3) or 2). Angrod (Angarato (FN), Arato (FN), Angamaite (AN)Artanga (HoME 12)). He had to wife Eldalote (Edhellos) (HoME 12). They had one son, Artaher (Arothir, Artaresto, Rodreth/Orodreth (AN). The children of Artaher were Finduilas and Artanaro (Rodnor) Gil-galad.
4) or 3). Aegnor (Ambarato (FN) Aikanaro (MN) (HoME 12). He was unwed (and belved of the mortal Andreth).
5) or 4) or not). Galadriel (Artanis (FN) Nerwen (Nerwende) (MN), Alatariel (Alaterielle, Altariel, Naltariel) (AN) (HoME 12, UT). She was wedded to Celeborn (of various descents). They had one child Celebrian, who wedded Elrond son of Earendil and Elwing. Or they had two children Celebrian and Amroth (see UT for this abandoned version).
Faniel (HoME 10 and 12) was the second daughter (HoME 10) and then the third daughter (HoME 10, 12) and youngest child of Finwe and Indis (she and Irime were switched). She also seems to have then been dropped from the genealogy (HoME 12). She remained in Aman.
Finrun Felageomor is a noted as a fourth child (HoME 4)

The House of Elwe
The parents of Elwe and his brothers Olwe and Elmo are not named.
Elwe Singollo (Elu, Thingol (AN) had to wife Melian the Maia. They had one daughter, Luthien Tinuviel (in an early version Daeron was their son).
Luthien was wed to Beren Erchamion. They had one child.
Dior Aranel Eluchil. He wed Nimloth (Elulin, Lindis (HoME 11) daughter of Galathil, grandson of Elmo. They had three children.
Elured and Elurin were their sons who were lost (slain/died) after the ruin of Doriath and death of Dior.
Elwing the White was there daughter, she wedded Earendi and bore him two sons Elrond (who wedded Celebrian) and Elros.
Olwe Ciriaran (HoME 12) had an unnamed wife and an unspecified number of children (HoME 10), only one of which is named.
Earwen was the daughter of Olwe. She wedded Finarfin and bore him 4 or 5 children.
Teleporno (UT, HoME 12) is the grandson of Olwe. His parents are not named. (In a late version) he wedded Galadriel (though of course this was aginst the laws of the Eldar, they were first cousins and the Eldar did not wed with kin that close (Sil.)) and not in keeping with LotR or RGEO.
Elmo (UT), brother of Elwe and Olwe, has an unnamed wife. She bore him at least one son.
Galadhon, son of Elmo, has an unnamed wife. She bore him two sons (UT).
Celeborn who wedded Galadriel they had a daughter, Celebrian, who wedded Elrond son of Earendil and Elwing.
Galathil (UT) who had an unnamed wife who bore him a daughter.
Nimloth (Lindis, Elulin (HoME 11) who wedded Dior son of Luthien and Beren. She bore him three children (Elured, Elurin, and Elwing).
A couple of other notes:
Cirdan and Eol are both noted to be kin to Elwe (Sil. and HoME). What this kinship is is not stated.
Celeborn refers to Legolas as kin (LotR). Oropher and his son Thranduil (father of Legolas) came from Doriath and if kin to Celeborn they should be kin to Elwe. It is possible that they were descended from Elmo.
Amroth has various descents. The most final versions make him the son of Amdir/Malgalad (UT). In one version he is the son of Celeborn and Galadriel (UT). In one version he is the brother of Celeborn (HoME 12) (though it is not stated if he is the son Galadhon or if Celeborn is the son of Amdir).


Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 2/4/01 5:03:43 pm


[ March 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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Old 02-03-2001, 10:27 PM   #2
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Re: Geneologies of the Eldar

You've done some research. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Good to see we've got another member over here. Welcome! And thanks! That'll save us some work! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

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Old 02-04-2001, 04:39 AM   #3
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the package has arrived!

Great work Tar Elenion.

Lots of thoughts - so I will only put down a couple.

Galadriel and Celeborn as first cousins [in a late conception
albeit] !!!
Have you come across any reference that JRRT saw this disparity
between this conception and the other statements re: first cousins?

I recently read a very late letter [347] 1972, which reconciles at
least part of the Celeborn problem.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...though said to be a kinsman of King elu Thingol he was
so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Tar Elenion writes: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;the Eldar did not wed with kin that close
(Sil.)) and not in
keeping with LotR or RGEO.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

At the risk of [further] unveiling my ignorance-what is
&quot;RGEO&quot; ?

BTW as we have a large # of 'viewrs' who are not 'posters' here on
the 'Silm. Theories discussion forum',
I formally encourage all who have an urge to post , to do so on
this and all other threads not directly involving editorial decisions
of the Silm project. To get involved more formally w/ the
Silmarillion project , I recommend an email to
Mithadan,Durelen,Gwaihir or myself at this point and [very
importantly] a thorough reading of all of the posts above the long
string of Locked threads.

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/4/01 5:53:18 am
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Old 02-04-2001, 11:43 AM   #4
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Re: the package has arrived!

Lindil:
Regarding the reference to 'first cousin marriage' it is said in 'Of Maeglin': &quot;... [Maeglin] loved the beuaty of Idril and desired her, without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so.&quot;
This is also in accordance with the Numenorean laws in 'Akallabeth': &quot;But Pharazon took [Miriel] to wife against her will doing evil in this and evil also in that the laws of Numenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree.&quot;
These two statements are in keeping with the tradition of the &quot;right ways of the Eldar and Edain&quot; in 'Aldarion and Erendis' (though the circumstance for mentioning similar laws and customs has to do with plural marriage not cousin marriage.
There is to my knowledge nothing indicating that JRRT recalled this prohibition at this late stage. CT seems to indicate, in the 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn', this as well.

I am not sure how Letter 347 reconciles the Celeborn problem. Letter 347 was written at about the same time the similar passages found in UT were written. The problem with Galadriel and Teleporno being first cousins is minor compared with the statements found in LotR which make Celeborn a Sinda of Beleriand and especially in 'The Road Goes Ever On' (RGEO) in which when JRRT wrote of some of the history of Celeborn and Galadriel he specifically stated that Celeborn was one of the Sindar. RGEO also adds a problem to the (late) conception of Galadriel being seperate from the rebelling Noldor. It specifically states that she was one of the leaders of the revolt and under the Ban. RGEO was published by JRRT well before his death with copywrites of 1962 and 1967.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 2/4/01 5:05:38 pm
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Old 02-04-2001, 03:36 PM   #5
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Celeborn and the forum

In terms of it resolving anything it is only in a minor way . The letter still keeps Celeborn as a relative of Thingol , but via the Amnian Teleri instead ofthe Sindar.
It seems though that ultimately any project will have to choose between the late or new conception.

re: marriage and first cousins , I was wondering if there was any text re: besides that which you mentioned [maeglin and Numenorean] it seems not. I will have to check out the UT note. UT has some of the most amazing nooks and crannies.

Tar Elenion feel free to throw in any ideas you may have re: resolving some of these knots , even though they are ot essential to the text we are presently working on [the darkening of Valinor] they are sure to need dealing w/ sooner or later.
Note to all:
the forum is after all more than just a board for a new Silmarillion , the individual ideas and theories behind choices that will have to be made are an essential part of it and participation in such debate and invsetigation is a whole other creature from editing texts w/ a/ the group require no formal or informal commitments.




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Old 02-04-2001, 05:01 PM   #6
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Re: Celeborn and the forum

I don't see that the Letter resolves the basic problem. The Letter is in keeping with the late variant as presented in UT. This variant _overall_ is the problem, in that the 'canonical' (taking as 'canon' those works published by JRRT in his lifetime) LotR and RGEO present Celeborn as a Sinda met by Galadriel in Doriath. As CT notes this change in Celeborn's lineage _may_ be a result of the late variant in which Galadriel departed from Aman seperately rather than with the Noldor (se UT). This variant is noted to come from &quot;philosophical&quot; not &quot;historical&quot; considerations (see UT). But while this change in Galadriel's departure is not specifically contradicted in LotR it is not entirely in keeping with it and it is specifically contradicted by RGEO. The decision then is whether to abide by what has appeared in the published 'canon' (LotR and RGEO), and CT suggests that JRRT would have felt bound by this, or to go with the variant and how to alter the rest to keep it consistant (ie if _you_ choose to change Celeborn into Teleporno, then do _you_ eliminate the references to the prohibition against first cousin marriage (or do you allow for an incestuous and 'illegal' relationship) and how do you justify it with the works that should be taken as 'canon' (ie LotR and RGEO). A similar problem arises with Celebrimbor, there are variants to his ancestry and history, but the LotR as published has him being a Feanorian. The same problem does not arise, for example, with Gil-galad or Amroth both of whom had various lineages but none of which appeared in the published canon.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>
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Old 02-05-2001, 04:19 AM   #7
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canon and Celeborn

You are right , the changes being needed to make celeborn telepono are too far reching ,unless one has the goal to change the entire LotR itself. what is problematic is that JRRT did make some radical [if sometimes subtle ] changes over the years and that he may well have intended to fully carry out a Myth's Transformed and new Galadriel/Celeborn overhaul of the LotR but can anyone else? Even RT would not consider it an option I think. So in the end it seems we are left w/ reconciling things to the LotR as the least problematic solution.

Celebrimbor as a Sinda seems a little funny- when were the Sinda known for craftsmanship?
As does Gil-Galad coming from the house of Finarfin which involves switching the high-kingship [what remained of it] to yet another house. wonder if Celebrimbor's founding of Eregion was a protest ,vote w/ your feet sort of move - or if they just wanted out of Lindon and thought Durin'ss folk would make the best neighbors?

well w/ Galadriel ,it is too bad as the final conception [minus the cousin thing] does seem to fit better - but there def. will be no perfect solutions to the mass of problems raised by the lack of a finished Silmarillion.

A compromise solution, which just occured to me, could be to allow Galadriel to leave Aman seperately but alone - .she would be a sailing a ship alone back to Middle-Earth [?!] or it could be left unsaid.
But keep Celeborn as doriathrim -just excise references to him out of the relevant texts in UT that might appear in&quot;eldanor and the princes of the eldalie&quot; or later 2nd/3rd age Texts.

lindil

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Old 02-05-2001, 10:13 PM   #8
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Re: canon and Celeborn

------------------------------------------------------
Lindil writes:
what is problematic is that JRRT did make some radical [if sometimes subtle ] changes over the years and that he may well have intended to fully carry out a Myth's Transformed and new Galadriel/Celeborn overhaul of the LotR but can anyone else? Even RT would not consider it an option I think. So in the end it seems we are left w/ reconciling things to the LotR as the least problematic solution.
--------------------------------------------------------

I think you are correct here.

--------------------------------------------------
Celebrimbor as a Sinda seems a little funny- when were the Sinda known for craftsmanship?
--------------------------------------------------

The Teleri were noted silversmiths and esteemed as such even by the Noldor (see UT). PoME has a variant where Celebrimbor is a Teler (one of three who went with Celeborn/Teleporno into exile).
Eol as a Sinda was an excellent craftsman.
The Sindar were also noted as shipbuilders.
Menegroth was built by Dwarves and the Sindar.


---------------------------------------------
As does Gil-Galad coming from the house of Finarfin which involves switching the high-kingship [what remained of it] to yet another house. wonder if Celebrimbor's founding of Eregion was a protest ,vote w/ your feet sort of move - or if they just wanted out of Lindon and thought Durin'ss folk would make the best neighbors?
------------------------------------------------

One theory on Gil-galad being from the House of Finarfin is that it would make him more acceptable to the Sindar. As the son of Orodreth he had a Sindarin mother (and also in one of the variants of him being Finrod's son). This (some suppose) would give him a better claim to being High King of the Elves of the West (in addition to being High King of the Noldor in Exile). (I dont necesarily agree with this, I am just pointing out an alternative viewpoint). It should also be noted that Celebrimbor as son of Curufin repudiated his father and remained in Nargothrond under Orodreth's rule.


----------------------------------------------------
well w/ Galadriel ,it is too bad as the final conception [minus the cousin thing] does seem to fit better - but there def. will be no perfect solutions to the mass of problems raised by the lack of a finished Silmarillion.
------------------------------------------------------

I am curious as to why you think that removing Galadriel from her participation in the revolt fits better? I dont agree myself, I think that in doing so it lessens her character and motivations (and is contradicted by RGEO &quot;[Galadriel] was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth... a ban was set on her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so&quot.

--------------------------------------------------------
A compromise solution, which just occured to me, could be to allow Galadriel to leave Aman seperately but alone - .she would be a sailing a ship alone back to Middle-Earth [?!] or it could be left unsaid.
But keep Celeborn as doriathrim -just excise references to him out of the relevant texts in UT that might appear in&quot;eldanor and the princes of the eldalie&quot; or later 2nd/3rd age Texts.
-----------------------------------------------------

The version in which she departed seperately has her sailing with Teleporno and three other Teleri (one of whom is Celebrimbor/Telperimpar (see PoME).

I am not particularly offering suggestions just pointing out various 'facts' (I am interested in seeing your solution, but it is your attempt).

I am also curious if you intend on using the abandoned version wherein Celeborn and Galadriel found and rule the Kingdom of Lorien or the 'later' version where Amdir and Amroth are the foudners and rulers?





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Old 02-06-2001, 12:07 AM   #9
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Re: canon and Celeborn

I would just like to point out that Maeglin and to a lesser extent Beleg were both excellent craftsmen.

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Old 02-06-2001, 07:47 AM   #10
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a reply

Tar Elenion said<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; PoME has a variant where Celebrimbor is a Teler (one
of three who went with Celeborn/Teleporno into exile).
Eol as a Sinda was an excellent craftsman.
The Sindar were also noted as shipbuilders.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Is this in Shibboleth? I read much of it yesterday looking for the final answer to the fin question in books- but missed the group teleri departure

Tar Elenion said<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I am curious as to why you think that removing Galadriel from her
participation in the revolt fits better? I dont agree myself, I think that in
doing so it lessens her character and motivations (and is contradicted
by RGEO &quot;[Galadriel] was the last survivor of the princes and queens
who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the
overthrow of Morgoth... a ban was set on her return, and she had
replied proudly that she had no wish to do so&quot<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> .&quot;<hr></blockquote>

It reduces her character in terms of the revolt admitted , but increases it in terms of purity of motivation - which explains [in part] why she alone of all the grandchildren of Finwe survive the 1st age in ME. while she was under the ban of the Valar - she was not under the doom of Mandos it would seem. see further below.
--------------------------------------------------------




Tar Elenion said<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;
I am not particularly offering suggestions just pointing out various
'facts' (I am interested in seeing your solution, but it is your attempt). &quot;<hr></blockquote>

Acknowledged and I much appreciate the dialouge as it helps me get clearer on issues in area's where I am fuzzy. there have been a few threads of this nature [ fea' of orcs and my outline ] which are along side the project as opposed to in the midst of it. but essential to my mind none the less.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; I am also curious if you intend on using the abandoned version wherein
Celeborn and Galadriel found and rule the Kingdom of Lorien or the
'later' version where Amdir and Amroth are the foudners and rulers?&quot;<hr></blockquote>


as it stands now[ and I hope will continue] , this is a group effort,and I don't have a final say or any more say than anyone else. that being said -
re: Lorien, as in other things the guiding principle is to use the final conception where it does not create new problems or chaos.To my mind this can include using parts of final conceptions [In Galdriel's case this could possibly be her and the Teleri minus Teleporno] ,still sailing seperately from Feanor. seee more below.

I think in the last years JRRT put great emphasis on Galadriel's devotion to the Valar [which Feanor did not have] and her near equal stature with him -so that a parallel but seperate departure almost would be required as she would not be willing to march w/ a host that had so recently killed her mother's people and then to go on and [hypothetically] sail in their stolen ships? [although as a counter this could be said of Finrod -excepting his special friendship w/ the son's of Fingolfin of whom it is said where like brothers to the sons of Finarfin- no such statement is made re: Galadriel]
In addition having celebrimbor leave w/ Galadriel gives further depth to his unrequitted love for her [in one version of the Ellesar] and deepens I think his motivation for making the rings.[Althogh this is an extremely Noldorin thing to do!]
As for Lorien and it's founding, I know of no hinderance to Amroth and Amdir/Malgalad, being the founders, but the movements of galadriel and celeborn are tangled and I have made no special study to what conceptions interfere w/LotR or not.The footnotes are thick on the ground as CRT says.

Durelen said<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;I would just like to point out that Maeglin and to a lesser extent Beleg
were both excellent craftsmen.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

In one version [last?] eol is ironically a tatyarin [ie noldor who never left ME] elf.
this explains somewhat his [and Maegin's] evil and pro-dwarf temperment and his metallurgical skills.
I recall Beleg being most skilled in woodcraft - I always took this to mean: hunting/survival/herbs and plant lore and such] is there another reference?

An interesting point is that saulotus [and one or 2 others I have met or heard tell of] favor a final conception only policy whereby MT would be the guiding light and anything that got in the way would have to go. the LotR would also be revised . Too bold for my blood but consistent and idealistic ,in a way.
My personal goal w/ all of this [which may or may not line up w/ a group endeavor] is too have the richest possible narrative versions of the tales laid out in a way similar to The Silmarillion but w/ all of theUnfinished/History material included wherever feasible in the text[QS] ,appendices or in a new Tales of Numenor and Of the Rings of power and the 2nd and 3rd Ages.

Another goal is [w/ the group process] is to see how it goes as acommunity endeavor in and of itself, I have already learned much [although some could well argue otherwise <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] about group dynamics and a little more about writing and my typing is up 100% [from near nothing<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] so the group project and my goals are dovetailing nicely for me at this point, but I would stay w/ the group effort as long as it is going and my biz/family life allow, as it motivates me and teaches me in ways a solo effort are not likely to do as quickly or easily.

Tar Elenion have you/ read a copy of the Osanwe-Kenta?
It is an amazing section CRT left out of XI.



lindil

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Old 02-06-2001, 10:20 AM   #11
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Re: a reply

Osanwe-Kenta is indeed remarkable.

Re: Galadriel taking ship (with or without Celeborn) into exile, she had three motives. First, she had petitioned to Manwe for leave to return to Middle Earth before the Rebellion (at least in one version). Second, she fought on behalf of the Teleri in Alqualonde against Feanor and his followers and did not wish to associate herself as a follower of Feanor but nonetheless wished to return to ME. Lastly, she wished to follow Feanor to avenge her kindred, but would not march with him and his followers.

What I dislike about the &quot;return to ME via ship&quot; version is that Celeborn becomes a Valinorean Teleri rather than a prince of Doriath which I feel is more appropriate and meshes better with his decision to stay after the end of the Third Age. Also that the &quot;ship&quot; version seems to be associated with the &quot;Galadriel was never in Beleriand&quot; thread, which I also disfavor and which also at least impliedly differs from what is said in LoTR.

Re: MT, I am a fence rider. I like some of the concepts (round earth, etc.) but feel some of the revisions needed to effect MT as part of the story are difficult and almost contrived.

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were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Old 02-06-2001, 11:27 AM   #12
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Galadriel and co.

Well then it seems as if the hybrid version of her seperate departure w/out Teleporno could be the way to go.
ido prefer keeping as much of JRRT's final conception of her intact as possible .

I do like th teleporno from Valinor in that it gives some [much needed imo] stature to Celeborn, who comes of as rather poor in the Lothlorien chapter [again imo] but as already noted seems to mangle to many deeply embeded elements.

Mithadan: have you checked out Gilthalions hobbits fanfic yet? I think the link is in his post of the Silm outline / proposal thread. I think it is excellent and made a suggestion [on the 2nd chapter thread ] which may interest you at some point.

lindil

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Old 02-06-2001, 07:21 PM   #13
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Re: a reply

Lindil:
Re Celebrimbor a Teler:
No, not Shibboleth, PoME 'Dwarves and Men', Note 7 (page 318) .

Re movements:
I will post something on the movements of Galadriel and Celeborn in a few days if you like.

-----------------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
In one version [last?] eol is ironically a tatyarin [ie noldor who never left ME] elf.
--------------------------------------------------
Eol was mentioned as a Tatyarin Avar in 'Quendi and Eldar' (ca. 1968) . But in 'Maeglin' (ca. 1970) he is again a Telerin Sinda (though not kin to Thingol); and in a note dated 1971 JRRT noted that Eol being kin to Thingol 'would have a point' (see 'Maeglin' in WotJ esp. page 322 and also end note 33 to 'Quendi and Eldar', page 420).

-----------------------------------------
Tar Elenion have you/ read a copy of the Osanwe-Kenta?
It is an amazing section CRT left out of XI.
--------------------------------------------

Yes. I am quite pleased that some of the linguists have access to and are publishing some of these still unpublished writings (though at a very modest rate, there is actually a 'fuss' in the linguistic community about some of this being 'held back' for too long; there still seems to be a wealth of pertinent 'historical' information to be mined from JRRT's (still unpublished) linguistic writings).


------------------------------------------------------
I think in the last years JRRT put great emphasis on Galadriel's ...
------------------------------------------------------
Very much last years. As late as January of '71 he said &quot;I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar. At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return [which was not granted her as per RGEO]. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself&quot;, Letter 320.

My own take on it is that with the 'sanitization' of her character (ie her removal from all association with the rebellion) it lessen the impact of her eventual 'change' from simply proud and ambitious prince to a 'simpler' noble person 'fighting the long defeat' in a struggle to 'atone' for a (possibly mis-) perceived errors. If JRRT had gone through with the changes I think it the setting of a Ban on her return and holding her accountable for deeds in which she had no participation as rather contrived.

-------------------------------------------------------
An interesting point is that saulotus [and one or 2 others I have met or heard tell of] favor a final conception only policy whereby MT would be the guiding light and anything that got in the way would have to go. the LotR would also be revised . Too bold for my blood but consistent and idealistic ,in a way.
---------------------------------------------------------

I am curious as to how LotR would need to be revised in a Myths Transformed scenario, I have not noted very much in it that is not compatible with LotR.







Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 2/7/01 6:50:59 pm
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Old 02-08-2001, 09:33 AM   #14
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movements of galadriel and MT



Tar Elenion: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; Re movements:
I will post something on the movements of Galadriel and Celeborn
in a few days if you like.&quot; <hr></blockquote>
yes, please!These are just what we need here now as all my spare energy is going toward finishing my 1st section of Darkening of Valinor and a couple of outside projects.There are so many subtle concepts that need to be researche for a revised Silmarillion -it really helps one to appreciate CRT's work. and to think he was working w/ semi-legible30-50 yearold 'thin and spidery' scrawl much of the time-it is a near miracle.


Tar Elenion :<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; Yes. I am quite pleased that some of the linguists have access to and are publishing some of these still unpublished writings (though
at a very modest rate, there is actually a 'fuss' in the linguistic
community about some of this being 'held back' for too long; there
still seems to be a wealth of pertinent 'historical' information to be
mined from JRRT's (still unpublished) linguistic writings).&quot; <hr></blockquote>
I have peeked at a couple of these pages. [ELF is one I don't recall the others] are you a member of any ,are there any you consider essential for conversation on more subtle issues such as these-that are not purely linguistic ? although part of my interst in the pages is that my interest in Quenya and Sindarin and the Alphabets has been growing lately.


Tar Elenion: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; My own take on it is that with the 'sanitization' of her character (ie
her removal from all association with the rebellion) it lessen the
impact of her eventual 'change' from simply proud and ambitious
prince to a 'simpler' noble person 'fighting the long defeat' in a
struggle to 'atone' for a (possibly mis-) perceived errors. If JRRT
had gone through with the changes I think it the setting of a Ban on
her return and holding her accountable for deeds in which she had
no participation as rather contrived.&quot; <hr></blockquote>
RGEO does mention a ban on her return doesn't it. that does rather complicate things . I loaned my RGEO to saulotus , but I will check soon. But I seem to remember it.
As for fighting a long defeat for 6,500 years or so , I think that is no mean feat - w/ one's character being transformed or not.



Tar Elenion: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; I am curious as to how LotR would need to be revised in a Myths
Transformed scenario, I have not noted very much in it that is not
compatible with LotR.&quot; <hr></blockquote>
I would look at Michael Martinez's article at suite 101.com &quot; Is your canon on the loose&quot; [which mentions are fledgling endeavors at a tome when we were trying to come to terms w/ wether a MT version was the way to go or not -btw for the 3 drafts our group is working on we were originally pondering doing both an MT and Old-Style versions-w/ saulotus in charge of MT . Now that he is not w/ us Mithadan has expressed interest in keeping that aspect of the project alive. ] I think the Old Myths Transformed thread that is still unlocked goes into it a bit although I am not sure.

lindil

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Old 04-12-2001, 06:30 PM   #15
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Re: movements of galadriel and MT

No-one has yet commented on the contradiction between what Galadriel tells of her movements in the chapter &quot;The Mirror of Galadriel&quot; in The Lord of the Rings and the text of the published Silmarillion.

Galadriel introduces her husband Celeborn to the Fellowship and then continues:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.<hr></blockquote>Yet the final sentence in Chapter 14 of the published Silmarillion begins:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But none of the Noldor went ever over Ered Lindon, while their realm lasted;<hr></blockquote>Certainly no later writing mentions any departure from Beleriand by Galadriel or any Elf during the First Age.

So which of these sentences should be modified? Should one change the sentence in LotR to something like &quot;for after the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin and the ruin of Beleriand I passed over ...&quot;. Or should one change the sentence in The Silmarillion to something like &quot;But few Noldor went over Ered Lindon ...&quot;? Or should phrases be simply dropped in one work or the other?

Or should one indeed look on even a revised Silmarillion as a compilation from disparate sources with resulting contractions purposely tolerated? Even to add words such as &quot;And some have said&quot; or &quot;Though some say&quot; is to create an editorial bridge.

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Old 04-12-2001, 10:30 PM   #16
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Re: movements of galadriel and MT

Greetngs and welcome to the board Jallanite.

Excellent point. CRT of course says in his intro to the 77 Silmarillion that &quot;Complete consistency is not to be looked for either between the stories themselves or with my fathers other published work and could only be acheived at heavy and needless cost.&quot;[from memory]
I guess you have stumbled on a perfect case in point, although I can see no heavy damage from leaving her movement into Beleriand at the end of the 1st age vague in the silmarillion if there was no text to draw on to rectify it. I would guess it to be oversite on CRT's part , who knows maybe it will be corrected in the new edition. It doesn't sound likely though.

Here in the Silmarillion Canon forum we are pretty much agreed on one thing and that is that the 1977 Silmarillion is not canon in the sense that the Lord of the Rings is. It may be as close as we get, although I would put the final versions of warof the Jewels and Morgoth's RIng in that place myself and then leave aside the hodge podge of the final chapters as another issue. But none of it went through the final production stages that JRRT did on the LotR and he even corrected that and the Hobbit a few times in his life.

Since virtually no one is suggesting adapting the LotR to the Silm [whichever one you pick] that leaves the necessity of adapting the Silm to the LotR . simple as Tar Elenion has pointed out several times.

Celeborn can not be Teleporno who left valinor w/ her seperate from Feanor.
Though to my mind her seperate departure with Teleri who are not Celeborn is still possible.
Unless that is contradicted by her 'leading the Noldor into rebellion' which I have read somewhere recently.

The Galadriel thing is one of the more complex as certainly much of the later conception of her [ and there is alot] can be included in the the silm [from shibboleth especially] but how far do you go? I have my own tentative answers but I will happily hold them till others have a chance to post if they so desire.

It is nearly Great and Holy Friday here in SF and I may be offline till monday or so -
since no one may hear from me till after Pascha [ easter ] I will leave you with a joyous
CHRIST IS RISEN!




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 04-13-2001, 10:55 AM   #17
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Re: movements of galadriel and MT

I agree that LotR cannot be altered. I'd also say, though, that we shouldn't contradict RGEO either - i.e., Galadriel must NOT have left Aman separately.

Decisions like this should not be made based on what we think makes a better story; they should be made to be as consistent as possible with Tolkien's conceptions, and to agree with the works he published in his lifetime. With all due respect for your preference for the separate departure, it does contradict what's published. It's also not universally considered better; I think that having Galadriel, the greatest of the Noldor save Feanor, go with the exiles provides a good explanation for why so many of the Noldor were willing to go, despite the dislike of so many of them for Feanor.

Regarding Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and the High Kingship: I think that Celebrimbor's rejection of Curufin as a father is good enough grounds for his not getting the Kingship. The real question, then, is why didn't it go to Idril, and then to Elrond? I still think that the statement about Neri and Nissi being equal rules out a purely male-descent for Elven kingships and such. Personally, I prefer Gil-Galad as the son of Fingon, but Tolkien's latest ideas here are very clear, and I don't think it's impossible to reconcile them with the rest of the Silm.

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Old 04-14-2001, 11:55 AM   #18
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road goes ever on

Aiwedil , you are right on re: RGEO , I loaned my copt ouy and have forgotten it's exact details.

Aiwendil posted&quot;Regarding Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and the High Kingship: I think that Celebrimbor's rejection of Curufin as a father is good enough grounds for his not getting the Kingship. The real question, then, is why didn't it go to Idril, and then to Elrond? I still think that the statement about Neri and Nissi being equal rules out a purely male-descent for Elven kingships and such. Personally, I prefer Gil-Galad as the son of Fingon, but Tolkien's latest ideas here are very clear, and I don't think it's impossible to reconcile them with the rest of the Silm. &quot;

Lindil replies:Celebrimbor [as son of Curufin]was a no go for king because the house of Feanor had become dispossesed- they lost the heirship and the Silmarills. Not to mention that the if the majority of the Endorian Noldor would not follow him [moderate son of Feanor that he was] they would certainly have nothing to do w/ their house after the slayings in Doriath and the Havens of Sirion. I would imagine it was mostly Feanorians who went to Eregion , they probably were rather unwelcome [ w/out a sincere and deep repentance] among the other Noldor, and so founded their own community under Celebrimbor.Galadriels sojourn their may be part of Thranduil's dislike [mentioned in UT] as he was a Doriathrim [or son of].

Re: Female High Queens, it never happened. I would surmise that it was partly cultural and partly circumstance [leading wars and such as Tar Elenion mentioned [I think].Galdriel could possibly have been an exception but by the time Gil-Galad died there were prob. to few Noldor to have a High_king, thus Elrond and Galadriel made no prretenious claims , but went about their business, and acted somewhat in a conciliar fashion .



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Old 04-15-2001, 03:47 PM   #19
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Nested implications

I don't see a Valinorean birth for Celeborn being at odds with what is said about him in LotR, RGEO, or Sil. I see more difficulties arising from Galadriel's separate voyage, whether or not she is accompanied by Teleporno/Celeborn.

This is a listing of the variants in the stories of Celeborn's origin and Galadriel's passage to Middle-earth with their dependencies as I see them, giving Tolkien's latest thoughts first, where these can be determined:

1. Where was Celeborn's birthplace?

*****A. Celeborn was born in Valinor. He accompanied Galadriel to
*********Middle-earth (however she came there).
*********There is some tension with the accounts in LotR, RGEO, and Sil.
*********but nothing that I believe Tolkien could not easily have
*********glossed over with some such words as: &quot;Celeborn was reckoned as
*********one of the Sindar of Doriath, though in fact he came from
*********Valinor, for ...&quot;. An Elf of Teleran descent who took Thingol as
*********his lord and dwelt in Doriath could certainly be counted as
*********Sindar.
*********Was Celeborn grandson of Olw and first-cousin to his wife
*********Galadriel?
**********I. Yes. Tolkien intended this fully.
*************Was this first-cousin marriage according to Eldarin custom?
***************a. Yes. Tolkien had modified his earlier ideas. The
******************sentence near the end of the chapter &quot;Of Maeglin&quot; would
******************have been dropped.
***************b. No. Tolkien's intended story would have dealt with the love
******************of Celeborn and Galadriel as one against custom. The
******************sentence near the end of the chapter &quot;Of Maeglin&quot; might
******************have been rewritten something like this: &quot;The Eldar
******************wedded not with kin so close, save for Celeborn and
******************Galadriel, nor ever before, save for those two, had any
*****************desired to do so.&quot;
*********II. No. This is a careless error that Tolkien would have corrected.
*************What then can now be done now in way of correction?
***************a. Teleporno/Celeborn is to be identified only as &quot;Olw's
******************kinsman&quot;.
***************b. Teleporno/Celeborn is to be identified as &quot;son of Galadhon
******************son of Elmo&quot; as in the version which places his birth in
******************Beleriand; but it must now be understood that Elmo went to
******************Valinor with Olw.

*****B. Celeborn is born in Beleriand.
*********This does not conflict in any way with LotR, RGEO, or Sil. He is
*********son*of Galadhon son of Olw.


2. How did Galadriel come to Middle-earth?

*****A. She made a crossing separately from the rest of the Noldor in a ship
*********accompanied by four Teleri (possibly Teleporno/Celeborn, Galathil his
*********brother, Celebrimbor and one other). They arrived at the Havens where
*********Crdan received them a little before the arrival of Fanor in
*********Middle-earth.
*********This requires the removal of the words &quot;and Galadriel&quot; from the last
*********paragraph in &quot;Of the Flight of the Noldor&quot; in Sil.
*********It almost certainly also requires modification on when and how tidings********
*********of the theft of the silmarils and the slaughter at Alqualond
*********first became known. I discuss this separately later.

*****B. Galadriel accompanied her brother Finrod as in current Sil. (She may have
*********been accompanied by Teleporno/Celeborn [who may have been accompanied by
*********Galathil].) This requires no change from Sil.

If Galadriel and four Teleri arrived in Crdan's haven some time before the arrival of Fanor in Middle-earth, what story would they have told Crdan? Would they have been silent about the silmarils and the slaughter at Alqualond? Why should they? In Sil. there are no Teleri among those who return, Fanor is dead before any of the Noldor meet any other Elves except for those still dwelling in Hithlum, peace has been made between the Fanor's sons and those who passed the Helcarax, and so the shameful story of the kinslaying is long kept quiet, even by Galadriel.

But in the circumstances of a separate crossing with four Teleri while Fanor still lives I cannot believe Galadriel or the Teleri with her would have been silent about these deeds. Tolkien would have much revised the material in the account of Angrod's first meeting with Thingol, the account of Melian's dialogue with Galadriel in which Galadriel reveals the truth of the Silmarils but will not talk about the kinslaying, and in his account of the tales that eventually began to circulate of which Crdan informed Thingol which led Thingol to accuse Finrod and Angrod of deception and so extracted from them the whole truth.

An appropriate revision could be attempted by omitting some of this material and moving some to an earlier position. The material to be moved would be from Galadriel's dialogue with Melian with most of the story of how Thingol learned the truth and extracted a confirmation from Angrod and Finrod. For example, the revised account might relate that at the time of Thingol's first meeting with Angrod Thingol is already informed through Crdan of the tales Crdan has heard from Galadriel and the Teleri, Angrod (with Finrod?} speaks nothing of either silmaril or kinslaying, then Thingol's accusation of deception immediately follows.

The result would be a tighter and more dramatic story than provided by the current Sil., giving better justification for Thingol's immediate distrust of the Noldor, particularly his distrust of the sons of Fanor, and for his refusal from the beginning to allay himself with them against Morgoth.

But it may be impossible to extract such an account from the current materials by simple cut and paste without also adding some bridging words.

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Old 04-15-2001, 05:51 PM   #20
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Re: movements of galadriel and MT

----------------------------
Quothe jallanite:
No-one has yet commented on the contradiction between what Galadriel tells of her movements in the chapter &quot;The Mirror of Galadriel&quot; in The Lord of the Rings and the text of the published Silmarillion.
---------------------------------

There is no real contradiction. Note the woring of the sentence in 'Of Beleriand and its Realms': &quot;But none of the Noldor went ever over Ered Lindon, while their realm lasted...&quot;. This is refering to the realm of the Noldor as a whole, not the individual realms of the various chieftains and kings. The realm of the Noldor lasted until the Fall of Fingolfin and Ruin of Beleriand (ca. 456+), or, at the latest, the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and the death of Fingon (ca. 472). After the death of Fingolfin the Noldor and their realm were no longer united and after Fingon's death the kingship of the Noldor was nominal at best as Turgon had little intercourse with the outside world. That Galdriel passed over the Ered Luin 'ere the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin' that is before ca. 495 is canon. When she fled Beleriand with Celeborn is arguable, but obviously sometime between ca. 457 and 495. Perhaps after the death of Finrod? What is contradicted is the version wherein Galadriel departs seperately from Valinor and flees Beleriand _possibly_ quite shortly after arriving there (see UT).

-----------------------
Quote:
Certainly no later writing mentions any departure from Beleriand by Galadriel or any Elf during the First Age.
-------------------------------
It is mentioned in one of the variants of Galadriel's history (written very late).

----------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I guess you have stumbled on a perfect case in point, although I can see no heavy damage from leaving her movement into Beleriand at the end of the 1st age vague in the silmarillion if there was no text to draw on to rectify it. I would guess it to be oversite on CRT's part , who knows maybe it will be corrected in the new edition. It doesn't sound likely though.
------------------------------------

Hopefully there is no need to consider it a contradiction. I am not so sure that it is an oversight on CT's part. Looking at some of the passages that formed this it may well be that he saw it similar to how I have attempted to explain it above.
It reads the same in the 2nd edition Silmarillion as well.

----------------------------------
Quothe Aiwendil:
Regarding Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and the High Kingship: I think that Celebrimbor's rejection of Curufin as a father is good enough grounds for his not getting the Kingship.
----------------------------------

As Lindil pointed out the Feanorians as a whole were 'Dispossessed'.

--------------------------------
Quote:
The real question, then, is why didn't it go to Idril, and then to Elrond? I still think that the statement about Neri and Nissi being equal rules out a purely male-descent for Elven kingships and such. Personally, I prefer Gil-Galad as the son of Fingon, but Tolkien's latest ideas here are very clear, and I don't think it's impossible to reconcile them with the rest of the Silm.
-----------------------------------

It could not have gone to Elrond after Idril in any event. Elrond had yet to be born (although in the early versions it was Elrond who ruled not Gil-galad who had yet to be invented). However the statement about the Neri and Nissi being equal is qualified: &quot;There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in plave and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar).&quot; quoted from 'Laws and Customs'.


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Old 04-15-2001, 06:34 PM   #21
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Re: Nested implications

---------------------------
Quothe jallanite:
I don't see a Valinorean birth for Celeborn being at odds with what is said about him in LotR, RGEO, or Sil. I see more difficulties arising from Galadriel's separate voyage, whether or not she is accompanied by Teleporno/Celeborn.
------------------------------

In RGEO it is stated: &quot;She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar)...&quot;.
This explicitly states Celeborn to be one of the _Sindar_ not a Teler of Valinor. It goes on to speak of the High-Elves not being able to overcome their Sea longing which Galadriel was burdened with, but no mention of Celeborn having this desire is made (and if he was a Teler of Valinor he would have had this). This is also implied in LotR (though not explicitly stated in the revised edition).

-------------------------
Quote:
A. She made a crossing separately from the rest of the Noldor in a ship accompanied by four Teleri (possibly Teleporno/Celeborn, Galathil his brother, Celebrimbor and one other). They arrived at the Havens when Crdan received them a little before the arrival of Fanor in Middle-earth.
----------------------------

Regarding Celebrimbor, this would contradict LotR wherein it is stated that Celebrimbor &quot;was descended from Feanor&quot;.
If this version of Celeborn's flight was to be used there is no need to make Galathil his brother.

---------------------------
Quote:
b. Teleporno/Celeborn is to be identified as &quot;son of Galadhon son of Elmo&quot; as in the version which places his birth in Beleriand; but it must now be understood that Elmo went to Valinor with Olw.
------------------------------

Putting Elmo in Valinor with Olwe is not suggested by JRRTs writings on Elmo but would lead to an actual rewriting of the conception of Elmo who was &quot;beloved of Elwe with whom he remained&quot;.

Re: First cousin marriage:
It is likely that JRRT simply forgot, or was not considering that aspect. I dont think it is something he would have dropped.

Your justifications are very interesting.

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Old 04-17-2001, 03:31 AM   #22
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...

Does anyone have any idea on how much information is still unpublished by Elf?

Non-linguistic info that is, works like tyhe Osanwe Kenta.....

on topic, why amend the History of Galadriel and Celeborn at all from the way it was written in the published SIlmarillion? Will this new and canon Silmarillion give precedence to all later writings?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 4/17/01 10:39:25 am
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Old 04-17-2001, 10:13 AM   #23
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Re: Unpublished Tolkien material

One early estimate I was told indicated they thought it would take ten years to go through all the material.

http://www.xenite.org/Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy</a>
http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/Lord of the Rings Movie news</a>
http://www.xenite.org/books/visualiz...dle-earth.htmlVisualizing Middle-earth, a book on Tolkien</a>
http://www.xenite.org/conventions/dragoncon.htmTolkien & Middle-earth track at Dragoncon</a>
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Old 05-28-2001, 05:01 PM   #24
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Re: Nested implications

I certainly missed the late reference to Galadriel again crossing the Mountains in the First Age, and also the problem of Celebrimbor's parentage.

But the main purpose of my earlier posting, besides trying to organize the possible variations, was to indicate that bringing Galadriel to Middle-earth, whether accompanied by Teleporno or not, creates great problems in realistically maintaining the motif of keeping the twin secrets of the Revolt of the Noldor and the Kin-slaying at Alqualond from Thingol. Galadriel and her companions, coming first to Crdan, have no reason to keep anything secret and every reason to tell all, and as indicated in my post, I think this would make for a better and more dramatic story.

But unless this story can be properly created by simple cut-and-paste, then the late idea of a separate crossing by Galadriel must be ignored as introducing an issue Tolkien would have needed to address. He could have addressed it easily, and it could be done easily enough now, but not, I think, without some substantial rewriting or adding of extra material.

As to Teleporno's status as Sindar: in HoME 11, &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; C.**The Clan-names, Sindar, Tolkien writes of the name Sindari:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This was the name given by the Exiled oldor (see Note 11) to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar. (Note 16, p.*412) It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin that the oldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elwe, or had become merged with his people.<hr></blockquote>This passage and others from &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; appear to be the origin of Christopher Tolkien's entry on Sindar in the index to the published Silmarillion which says the same thing with unimportantl differences in wording.

Therefore, by definition, any Teleri who accompanied Galadriel to Beleriand, arriving before the Noldor, and &quot;that the oldor found in Beleriand&quot; are reckoned as Sindar, and Celeborn is just as much one of the Sindar as he is in The Lord of the Rings.

Yes, this is a silly and forced quibble, but I believe it is the same nice point of identification that Tolkien would have used to gloss over the change. He would probably also have made the returned Teleri direct subjects of Elw, &quot;merged&quot; with his people, so that in this also they would become Sindar.

Finally, to insist that Celeborn could not have been counted among the Sindar because he was born among the Teleri of Aman is somewhat like saying Tolkien could not rightly be called English because he was born in South Africa. (Not exactly the same, I admit, but close enough.)

I see no contradiction between the description in LR of Celeborn being one of the Sindar and the account of Teleporno being born in Aman. The tension between the accounts is very slight. If some way of dealing with the motif of keeping the two secrets could be found and it is decided that the separate crossing of Galadriel can be kept, there is nothing forbidding Teleporno being among those who accompany her in either LR or the published Quenta Silmarillion.

The cousin relationship is a separate issue and I've dealt with possible solutions in the previous post. Just changing &quot;grandson of Olw&quot; to &quot;kinsman of Olw&quot; would do.

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Old 05-29-2001, 04:52 PM   #25
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Re: Nested implications

------------------------------------------
Quote:
This passage and others from &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; appear to be the origin of Christopher Tolkien's entry on Sindar in the index to the published Silmarillion which says the same thing with unimportantl differences in wording.
Therefore, by definition, any Teleri who accompanied Galadriel to Beleriand, arriving before the Noldor, and &quot;that the oldor found in Beleriand&quot; are reckoned as Sindar, and Celeborn is just as much one of the Sindar as he is in The Lord of the Rings.
-------------------------------------------

As you point out this is 'forced'. 'Quendi and Eldar' was by defintion written before JRRT wrote of the possibility of there being some Amanyar Teleri in Beleriand (Q&amp;E ca 1959) or considered changing Celeborn's parentage. The Sindar are, by definition, Moriquendi (save Thingol). Celeborn as Teleporno and any Teleri who accompanied him would by definition be Kalaquendi.


-----------------------------------------
Quote:
The cousin relationship is a separate issue and I've dealt with possible solutions in the previous post. Just changing &quot;grandson of Olw&quot; to &quot;kinsman of Olw&quot; would do.
-------------------------------------------

This however changes the essence of what was written. Celeborn as Teleporno was not just a kinsman of Olwe. He was Olwe's grandson.

The problems with attempting to incorporte this late version are several.

Galadriel leaving seperately from the Noldor is not entirely in keeping with the published LotR (though not refuted by it). It is directly refuted by RGEO. If the account as relayed in RGEO is going to be taken as canon since JRRT saw fit to publish it in his lifetime, then there is no reason to have a Teleporno version as JRRT did not write of the Teleri accompaning the Noldor, and having Teleporno leave seperately from Galadriel is overly forced. Teleporno is not quite in keeping with LotR (why would the Telerin Elf Teleporno remain behind when Galadriel left).

The simpler course is take the published RGEO as canon. This is in keeping with the LotR and does not involve major rewriting of the canon. Using the late version contradicts the published canon, is not in keeping with LotR and would force a rewritting of itself (kinsman/grandson).






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Old 06-03-2001, 01:49 PM   #26
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Re: Geneologies of the Eldar

Jallanite, I appreciate your attemptto salvage the later Galadriel story, and you are quite right in pointing out the whole issue of Thingol/Cirdan and the Kinslaying coverup. JRRT had he lived might well have done much of what you did. Moving the revelation earlier and having it be the pretext for Thingol's distrust from the get go is excellent , but as Tar Elenion points out it all runs afoul of the Road goes ever on. I think fidelity to what has been published [RGEO in this case] [w/ the exception of aberrations in the Hobbit] is important or the whole endeavor falls apart.

In general I like all of JRRT's increasing of Galadriel's stature in the later writings but unfortunately he hdid it all in isolation from the rest of the Legendarium, so from the point of view of a Silm canon that is coherent to the published canon we have to have some baseline upon which too make our Silm decisions.

in general [as I am now thinking of this] I would list the possible factors which must be considered heirarchically as such :
1]Agreement w/ LotR,GREO,Hobbit,Map...
11]His [andCRT's ] latest conception from which usable text can be used/extracted from HoME/UT/77 and I would be willing to include the Letters as there are some extended passages that could concevably fit the textual bill.
111] ealier details [principally Lost Tales and Lays] which add non-contradictory details , esp in places such as The fall of Gondolin where a more complete version did exist.

Hopefully others will have something constructive to say about the above scheme.



lindil


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Old 06-03-2001, 05:05 PM   #27
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Re: Nested implications

Tan-Elenion claims:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Sindar are, by definition, Moriquendi (save Thingol). Celeborn as Teleporno and any Teleri who accompanied him would by definition be Kalaquendi.<hr></blockquote>Yes, and no.

In &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot;, under Quena 2:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> *****In the period of Exile the oldor modified their use of these terms, which was offensive to the Sindar. Kalaquendi went out of use, exept in written oldorin lore. Moriquendri was now applied to all other Elves, except the oldor and Sindar, that is to Avari or to any kind of Elves that at the time of the coming of the oldor had not long dwelt in Beleriand and were not subjects of Elw. It was never applied, however, to any but Elvish people. The old distinction, when made, was represented by the new terms Amanyar 'those of Aman', and amanyar or manyar 'those not of Aman', beside the longer forms Amaneldi and maneldi.<hr></blockquote>Teleporno and his male companions would be counted among the Sindar, with whom they dwelt and among whom at least Teleporno had close kin, yet be recognized also as Amanyar.

This is all moot as far as any actions that must be taken, in that the story must be rejected for the purposes of this project for other reasons, but I think important to methodology. If an apparent contradiction between two texts can be reconciled without making a change or having to choose between them, then there is no contradiction. Or to put it another way, if the only problem between the story of Teleporno's birth outside of Middle-earth and his separate voyage from Aman in material published during Tolkien's lifetime was the sngle RGEO reference to Celeborn as &quot;one of the Sindar&quot;, then both could be accepted with minimal tension recognized between them.


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Old 06-03-2001, 06:50 PM   #28
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Re: Geneologies of the Eldar

agreed- good research work in Q&amp;E.
I def. am in favor of using later ideas even if they create a complexity such as the whole matter of Fingolfin's oath/claiming leader/kingship of the Noldor as long as it can be resolved w/in the context of the canon of published writings.

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Old 03-15-2002, 08:45 AM   #29
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<pre>

Name |Gender |Birth |Death |Parents |Syblings |Spouse |Children |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aegnor |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Finarfin |Finrod | | |
| | | |& Earwen |Angrod | | |
| | | | |Galadriel| | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amras |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Feanor & |Maedhros | | |
| | |1497 YT |Nerdanel |Maglor | | |
| | | | |Celegorm | | |
| | | | |Curufin | | |
| | | | |Caranthir| | |
| | | | |Amrod | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amrod |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Feanor & |Maedhros | | |
| | |1497 YT |Nerdanel |Maglor | | |
| | | | |Celegorm | | |
| | | | |Curufin | | |
| | | | |Caranthir| | |
| | | | |Amras | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Angrod |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Finarfin |Finrod |Eldalote |Orodreth? |
| | |455 YS |& Earwen |Aegnor | | |
| | | | |Galadriel| | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arakano |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Fingolfin|Fingon | | |
| | |1 YS |& Anaire |Turgon | | |
| | | | |Aredhel | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aredhel |Female |1st Age |1st Age |Fingolfin|Fingon |Eol |Maeglin |
| |1362 YT |400 YS |& Anaire |Turgon | | |
| | | | |Arakano | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arwen |Female |3rd Age |4th Age |Elrond & |Elrohir |AragornII|Eldarion |
| |241 YS |120 YS |Celebrian|Elladan | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caranthir |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Feanor & |Maedhros |Unnamed | |
| | |507 YS |Nerdanel |Maglor | | |
| | | | |Celegorm | | |
| | | | |Curufin | | |
| | | | |Amrod | | |
| | | | |Amras | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celeborn |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Galadhon |Galathiel|Galadriel|Celebrian |
| | | | | | |Amroth? |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celebrian |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Celeborn&|None |Elrond |Elrohir |
| | | |Galadriel| | |Elladan |
| | | | | | |Arwen |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celebrimbor|Male |1st Age |2nd Age |Curufin |None | | |
| | |1697 YS | | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celegorm |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Feanor & |Maedhros | | |
| | |507 YS |Nerdanel |Maglor | | |
| | | | |Curufin | | |
| | | | |Caranthir| | |
| | | | |Amrod | | |
| | | | |Amras | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cirdan |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Unknown |None |None |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curufin |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Feanor & |Maedhros |Unnamed |Celebrimbor|
| | |507 YS |Nerdanel |Maglor | | |
| | | | |Celegorm | | |
| | | | |Caranthir| | |
| | | | |Amrod | | |
| | | | |Amras | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dior |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Beren & |None |Nimloth |Elured |
| |470 YS |507 YS |Luthien | | |Elurin |
| | | | | | |Elwing |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earendil |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Tuor & |None |Elwing |Elrond |
| |503 YS | |Idril | | |Elros |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earwen |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Olwe |Unnamed |Finarfin |Finrod |
| | | | | | |Orodreth |
| | | | | | |Angrod |
| | | | | | |Aegnor |
| | | | | | |Galadriel |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elladan |Male |3rd Age |Unknown |Elrond & |Elrohir | | |
| |130 YS | |Celebrian|Arwen | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elmo |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Elwe |Unnamed |Galadhon |
| | | | |Olwe | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elrohir |Male |3rd Age |Unknown |Elrond & |Elladan | | |
| |130 YS | |Celebrian|Arwen | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elrond |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Earendil |Elros |Celebrian|Elrohir |
| |532 YS | |& Elwing | | |Elladan |
| | | | | | |Arwen |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elros |Male |1st Age |2nd Age |Earendil |Elrond |Unnamed? |Vardamir |
| |532 YS |442 YS |& Elwing | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elwe |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Unknown |Olwe |Melian |Luthien |
| | |502 YS | |Elmo | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elwing |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Dior & |Elured |Earendil |Elrond |
| |503 YS | |Nimloth |Elurin | |Elros |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eol |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Aredhel |Maeglin |
| | |400 YS | | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Faniel? |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Finwe & |Feanor | | |
| | | |Indis |Findis | | |
| | | | |Fingolfin| | |
| | | | |Irime | | |
| | | | |Finarfin | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feanor |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Finwe & |Findis |Nerdanel |Maedhros |
| |1169 YT |1197 YT |Miriel |Fingolfin| |Maglor |
| | | | |Irime | |Celegorm |
| | | | |Finarfin | |Curufin |
| | | | |Faniel? | |Caranthir |
| | | | | | |Amrod |
| | | | | | |Amras |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finarfin |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Finwe & |Feanor |Earwen |Finrod |
| |1230 YT | |Indis |Findis | |Orodreth |
| | | | |Fingolfin| |Angrod |
| | | | |Irime | |Aegnor |
| | | | |Faniel? | |Galadriel |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Findis |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Finwe & |Feanor | | |
| | | |Indis |Fingolfin| | |
| | | | |Irime | | |
| | | | |Finarfin | | |
| | | | |Faniel? | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finduilas |Female |1st Age |1st Age |Orodreth |None | | |
| | |495 YS | | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fingolfin |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Finwe & |Feanor |Anaire |Fingon |
| |1190 YT |456 YS |Indis |Findis | |Turgon |
| | | | |Irime | |Aredhel |
| | | | |Finarfin | |Arakano |
| | | | |Faniel? | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fingon |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Fingolfin|Turgon |Unnamed? |Erien? |
| |1280 YT |472 YS |& Anaire |Aredhel | |Finbor? |
| | | | |Arakano | |Gil-Galad? |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finrod |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Finarfin |Orodreth |Unclear |Gil-Galad? |
| |1300 YT |465 YS |& Earwen |Angrod | |Orodreth? |
| | | | |Aegnor | |Egnor? |
| | | | |Galadriel| | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finwe |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Miriel |Feanor |
| | |1,492 YT| | |Indis |Findis |
| | | | | | |Fingolfin |
| | | | | | |Irime |
| | | | | | |Finarfin |
| | | | | | |Faniel? |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galadhon |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Elmo |Unknown |Unnamed |Celeborn |
| | | | | | |Galathiel |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galadriel |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Finarfin |Finrod |Celeborn |Celebrian |
| |1362 YT | |& Earwen |Angrod | |Amroth? |
| | | | |Aegnor | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galatheil |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Galadhon |Celeborn |Unnamed |Nimloth |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gil-Galad |Male |1st Age |2nd Age |Fingon? |Unclear | | |
| | |3441 YS |Finrod? | | | |
| | | |Orodreth?| | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Idril |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Turgon & |None |Tuor |Earendil |
| |1469 YT | |Elenwe | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indis |Female |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Ingwe |Finwe |Findis |
| | | | | | |Fingolfin |
| | | | | | |Irime |
| | | | | | |Finarfin |
| | | | | | |Faniel? |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ingwe |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Indis |Unknown |Ingwion |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luthien |Female |1st Age |1st Age |Elwe & |None |Beren |Dior |
| |1200 YT |504 YS |Melian | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maedhros |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Feanor & |Maglor | | |
| | |587 YS |Nerdanel |Celegorm | | |
| | | | |Curufin | | |
| | | | |Caranthir| | |
| | | | |Amrod | | |
| | | | |Amras | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maeglin |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Eol & |None | | |
| |320 YS |510 YS |Aredhel | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maglor |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Feanor & |Maedhros |Unnamed | |
| | | |Nerdanel |Celegorm | | |
| | | | |Curufin | | |
| | | | |Caranthir| | |
| | | | |Amrod | | |
| | | | |Amras | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melian |Female |Pre- |None |None |Unknown |Elwe |Luthien |
| |History | | | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Miriel |Female |1st Age |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Finwe |Feanor |
| | |1172 YT | | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nimloth |Female |1st Age |1st Age |Galatheil|None |Dior |Elured |
| | |507 YS | | | |Elurin |
| | | | | | |Elwing |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Olwe |Male |1st Age |Unknown |Unknown |Elwe |Unnamed |Earwen |
| | | | |Elmo | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orodreth |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Finarfin |Finrod |Unnamed |Finduilas |
| | |495 YS |& Earwen |Angrod | |Gil-Galad? |
| | | | |Aegnor | | |
| | | | |Galadriel| | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turgon |Male |1st Age |1st Age |Fingolfin|Fingon |Elenwe |Idril |
| |1300 YT |510 YS |& Anaire |Aredhel | | |
| | | | |Arakano | | |
| | | | | | | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Made by Lord Mhoram 03-15-02 mhoramdm@yahoo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

</pre>


[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]
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Old 03-15-2002, 09:37 AM   #30
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Good lord, Mhoram.
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Old 03-15-2002, 09:55 AM   #31
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I'm a machine, am I not? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 11-11-2002, 02:58 AM   #32
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This would be the appropriate thread to offer something else that someone might find useful. I found this GIANT family tree picture somewhere, I cleaned it up in places as needed and added the Dwarven line from the appendix's. Wouldn't it be great to have this printed out like a poster? Jezzzz.

Once again, you'll have to highlight the link, copy it, and paste it into your address bar.
http://www.geocities.com/mhoramdm/treeBEST.gif
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Old 11-11-2002, 04:57 AM   #33
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Sorry Mhoram, but:

Quote:
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If this site belongs to you, please read this help page for more information and assistance.
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Old 11-11-2002, 11:02 AM   #34
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I copied the post to Word and I'm going to compile a family tree myself, seeing as my school won't let me go to free pages. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Hopefully, I won't mess up.
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Old 11-11-2002, 03:47 PM   #35
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Its working for me HI, did you copy and paste the link into the address bar?
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Old 11-11-2002, 03:57 PM   #36
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Wow. That's a pretty impressive family tree. It leaves out some of the information from HoMe, however. For example, it does not list Findis, Irien, or Argon; and it leaves Orodreth and Gil-Galad in the incorrect '77 positions. There may be other discrepancies that I've missed. Nonetheless, I think it might be worthwhile to update it and consider it for inclusion.
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:52 PM   #37
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quite a job, and very creative use of the formatting too!
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Old 11-19-2002, 06:34 AM   #38
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Yes, it is really impresive. But can some one tell me were they got the information about the Kings of Cardolan and Rhudaur?

I never saw them before and I don't know of any source were you could find them. So If they are authentic, I would be very pleased to know were to find them.

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P.S.: In the third age it is not really a fammily tree. At least in the case of Gondor it is more the line of succesiv Kings and rulers. The problem with that is that the diverence is not really marked on the drawing.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Findegil ]
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Old 01-20-2003, 11:08 AM   #39
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Sorry for bringing that thread up again, but at first hand could we get the source of the family tree? And it would be nice to have a working link again.

Thanks in Advance
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Old 01-23-2003, 02:06 AM   #40
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I hosted the Family Tree. Go here to view it. http://eightytwo.net/misc/lineage.jpg

The person who made it did great research, but the chart is sometimes confusing because letters are right next to eachother and such. I am thinking of redoing it in a more organized way. I dont know whether I will or not, but if I do, I will tell you about it.
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