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Old 04-17-2001, 02:56 AM   #1
Pengolodh
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I heard there was something on the fate of the Half Elves, decided by Manwe. They were given a choice I believe. Elladan, Elrohir, Elrond chose Elvish fate. Others were automatically accounted Men. I belive this to be in HoME 5. Can anyone quote this or tell me how it goes exactly?

Would it be worth submitting this into the new canon Sil?

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Old 04-17-2001, 06:03 AM   #2
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Re: Half-Elves/HoME 5?

I am in the middle of HoME 5 right now, if I come on to something, I will let you know.

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Old 04-17-2001, 03:55 PM   #3
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Re: Half-Elves/HoME 5?

Pengolodh:
The reference you are looking for is the 'Judgement of Manwe' in HoME 5, Quenta Silmarillion, The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion, paragraph $9 (page 326 of the hardback edition). &quot;Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.&quot;

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Old 04-18-2001, 03:31 AM   #4
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...

Ah, thanks

So Manwe gave the choice to Elrond and Elros. I knew that, but what bothers me is this. Elros chose mankind and so all his descendants were accounted among Men and have no choice. Elrond choses Elvish fate for his descendants. What strikes me as odd then is how the Twins and Milady Undomiel are yet again given a choice. Why are they given a choice and the mortal men of Numenor not? It says they were given the choice to go beyond the circles of this world with Elrond or become mortal and stay. Why do they even have this choice?

Also, why does Erendis says that some Numenoreans are real Half Elves? They aren't are they. Or are they Half Elves with the life of Men whilst Arwen is a Half Elf with &quot;the youth of the Eldar&quot;.Can you explain that?

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Old 04-19-2001, 02:37 PM   #5
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The choice of the Half-elven

This is a rather vexed issue, actually. Accepting the account in HoME V as canon for the moment (and I'm not too sure if it is), the Judgment of Manwe (which Comrade Tar-Elenion quoted) indicates that the presence of human blood made all Peredhel human by default, unless Manwe granted them the Choice. Because Earendil and Elwing took peril upon themselves for the benefit of the two kindreds, they were given the Choice of becoming elves or humans. It is not clear why Elrond and Elros were granted a choice. My take on this (NOT supported or AFAIK contradicted by any of JRRT's writings) is that perhaps Manwe felt it would be unjust to sunder families by having parents proclaimed elves, while their children remained human. At the same time, the Gift could not be denied. Therefore, the children of peredhel who had chosen to be elves were offered the Choice as a special dispensation against being considered human. Where peredhel chose to become human, the question of sundering did not arise, and therefore descendants on that line were not offered the choice.

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Old 04-19-2001, 03:34 PM   #6
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Re: The choice of the Half-elven

I tend to agree with Meneldil having made similar statements elsewhere. However note that Mithrellas remained an Elf in fate, though Imrazor who took her to wife remained mortal as did their children.


Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>
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Old 04-20-2001, 12:54 AM   #7
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Re: The choice of the Half-elven

The UT do not explain the fate of Mithrellas. Only says that she wanders of...
We do (unless I've missed something) not know what happend to her. Only that she slipped of in the night. And that her children Galador and Gilmith were countet among men and to there fate. As is stated above, this alone (that they have mortal blood in them) is enough to count them among men.

Actually Mithrellas may have died as a mortal? Somewhere it is said (in SILM I guess) that the two kindred of children was not allowed to &quot;mate&quot;/mary unless some great fate af Arda was involved - so for all I know Eru or Manv migth have made a divine intervention and &quot;removed/punished&quot; her from ME. Where she is now we do not know. Anywhere &quot;still alive&quot; to &quot;in the halls of Mandos&quot; or even &quot;outside the cicles of Arda&quot; counted to the second chrildren.

Anyway! I am quite sure that Tolkien explained somewhere why the chrildren of Elrond also were granted the choise, but I haven't got all my books at hand at this time. It may be in the Letters or proberly in the HoME .

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Old 04-20-2001, 04:05 AM   #8
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Re: The choice of the Half-elven

Thanks for the explanantion Meneldil, it is one I can reconcile with (obviously because it corresponds with my own thought on the matter <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ).

As for Mithrellas, the lovely Silvan refugee, I would assume that she remained an Elf, since there is no mention whatsoever of her becoming one of the race of Men. She was not a half Elf either, so no choices there. The fact that the residents of the House of Dol Amroth were consequently Men only establishes The Judgment of Manwe

Cheers <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 4/20/01 6:34:49 am
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Old 04-21-2001, 06:24 AM   #9
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Re: Half-Elves/HoME 5?

us cw Tar-Elenion:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> However note that Mithrellas remained an Elf in fate, though Imrazor who took her to wife remained mortal as did their children. <hr></blockquote>
Mithrellas is a slightly different case - not one of those instances where an elf-woman left all for love of a man, but rather of her thinking she 'had no choice'. Under the circumstances, it may have been in the interests of justice, equity and good conscience to let their fates remain sundered.

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Old 04-21-2001, 09:54 AM   #10
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Re: Half-Elves/HoME 5?

Re Mithrellas fate:
In Letter 153 JRRT says: &quot;Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'...&quot;. I take this to mean that no other Elf was allowed to become 'mortal' (ie be granted the Fate of Men); Luthien was the only exception. This would include Mithrellas. Note also that by the 'Judgement of Manwe' given above, Dior and his sons, Elured and Elurin, would be 'mortal', though Dior's wife, Nimloth, remained an Elf.

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Old 04-21-2001, 03:08 PM   #11
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Half-Elves/HoME 5?

us cw Tar-Elenion:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Note also that by the 'Judgement of Manwe' given above, Dior and his sons, Elured and Elurin, would be 'mortal', though Dior's wife, Nimloth, remained an Elf.<hr></blockquote>
True, unless Manwe gave their fear the Choice after their deaths.

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Old 04-21-2001, 06:09 PM   #12
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Re: Half-Elves/HoME 5?

True as well, Meneldil. But there is (IMO) no suggestion of Manwe doing that. Do you have something that could suggest such an action?

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Old 05-14-2001, 03:59 PM   #13
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Re: Half-Elves/HoME 5?

us cw Tar-Elenion:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Do you have something that could suggest such an action?<hr></blockquote>
I've been trying to think of something, but I guess it's just wishful thinking on my part. I attribute the grant of the choice to Earendil's children to a desire not to sunder the fates of families, unless the members themselves choose to sunder their fate (pure conjecture on my part, admittedly). Hence I believe that D, E and E should have been given the choice after their death. However, I don't think there's anything either way in the texts, and I don't think we'll ever know.

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