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Old 08-02-2003, 03:05 PM   #1
Maeglanthirion
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Tolkien Uruk-hai

I seem to remember somewhere in the books that Uruk-hai were created by mixing orcs and Gondor men. In the movie Gandalf said Uruk-hai were created mixing orcs and goblin men. The latter sounds rather funny and I'm partial to believe the former. Which one is true. Is this an error in the movie, or am I wrong. I know he says "goblin men" because i turned the subtitles on. Help!
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Old 08-03-2003, 03:12 AM   #2
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Sting

I have never heard about Uruk-hai being created mixing orcs and Gondor men...what a nasty idea *shudders*
I always thought that Saruman had mixed orcs and some evil 'wild men' or goblins...I'm sure that it founds from the book.
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Old 08-03-2003, 03:42 AM   #3
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Uruk-hai are simply created out of orcs. Men really have nothing to do with them!!
The way orcs were first created, so were also the Uruk-hai made by the dark forces, stronger, bigger and resistant to sunlight.
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Old 08-03-2003, 08:51 AM   #4
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Sting

Are you sure about that Diamond Green? I seem to remember the Uruk-hai as being at least partially Mannish, mixed with Wild Men or some such thing. I shall do a search on the site and see if I cannot come up with a definitive answer.

[Edit: You were right, Diamond Green, there is never any mention of the Uruk-hai as being half or partially Mannish. I must have seen the movie a few too many times [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]]

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]
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Old 08-03-2003, 12:54 PM   #5
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Tolkien

okay. I didn't really think mixing goblins and orcs would really create something like an Uruk-hai. Also, i always thought goblins were sort of a breed of orc, not really a species on it's own.
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Old 08-04-2003, 01:19 PM   #6
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Tolkien

Alright...I'm pretty sure that the Uruk-hai were a blend of the wild men from the hills/men of Dunland, but I can't find the quote right now...and I'm almost absolutely sure that golbins and orcs were the same, just two different names for the same creature (one point is that in the Hobbit, Bilbo calls his captors goblins, but in LOTR, they were called orcs)
Quote:
"Wouldn't an orc have suited it better?"
...so I really have no idea where "orcs and goblin-men" came from...

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]
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Old 08-05-2003, 08:39 AM   #7
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Sting

So, there are two different topics discussed here:
whether or not Goblins and orcs are the same
and if Uruk-hai were partly created out of men.


first of all, concerning orcs-goblins:
There is a difference. Orcs is the general name of the creatures that were corrupted by the dark lord, Goblins is a name for orcs, and especially the smaller kinds that infested the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains in the later third age. Their capital was at Mount Gundabad.
But in fact Tolkien himself wasn't very clear about this, he just referred to the orcs who lived in the Misty and Grey Mountains by Goblins, and the word "goblin" was never used in the Sil.

About the Uruk-hai: they were a kind of orcs, but larger and stronger, and they appeared in the third age.
As far as I can tell the Uruk-hai were created by Sauron through a process of dark sorcery and no hybridization with other races was involved in their creation.
So, men were certainly not involved, but,
maybe some people are confusing the Uruk-hai with half-orcs.
These were creatures made by Saruman, therefor he crossed orcs and men, and the half-orcs were also able to withstand sunlight.
So, maybe because in the movies it is Saruman who creates the Uruk-hai (while in fact it was Sauron who created them) there is some confusion...
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Old 08-06-2003, 05:58 PM   #8
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As near as my research has been able to come
up with, I am in agreement with Mariska
Greenleaf. Everything I have been able to
come up with and able to remember states that
Uruk-hai were a combination of men and orcs,
for the purpose of being able to travel in
sunlight.
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Old 08-06-2003, 06:31 PM   #9
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Tolkien

I was under the impresion that Saruman
breeded Goblin's with Men, they had
children, then he mated these "Goblin-Men"
with orcs, and out came an Uruk-Hai,
which means: Uruk- One of the larger breedes of Orcs. Hai- People. Uruk-Hai: Large Orc
People.
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Old 08-07-2003, 03:59 AM   #10
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Sting

That is the movie version I'm afraid.And the movies are no accurate source for the more detailed aspects of Tolkiens world.
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Old 08-07-2003, 04:35 AM   #11
Mariska Greenleaf
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Sting

Quote:
Uruk-Hai: Large Orc
People.
That's true, but "people" has nothing to do with men in this context. You can aswell say dwarfpeople or hobbitpeople for instance, but this doesn't make them half men.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 08-07-2003, 06:07 AM   #12
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Tolkien

"People" as in an inteligent, large and
numbered species.
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Old 08-08-2003, 05:54 AM   #13
Mariska Greenleaf
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Sting

Well ok, but I believe that the impression you have is not correct.
First of all because it wasn't Saruman who created the Urukhai ( I assume that we take the books as a reference), and second, I've never found any information about the fact that the Uruk-hai were partly made out of men.

I'll do some more research, 'cause it's an interesting topic.
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Old 08-08-2003, 06:47 AM   #14
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Sting

Darn, PJ, You have misguided us [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
I'm browsing through my books but I don't find anything...
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Old 08-08-2003, 07:54 PM   #15
Marroc Underhill
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Tolkien

I got my info from this letter I
recall seeing that was from JrrT.
It was about the Uruk-Hai, but I
guess he could not come to a decision.(?)
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Old 08-09-2003, 11:17 AM   #16
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I have come across some info saying " By what method Sauron bred these beings is not known,..." I have to wonder why these beings were so prominent in JRRT's books when Tolkien also had Sauron breeding the Olog-hai around the same time. They were stronger, bigger, fiercer, and formidable.
Any thoughts?
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Old 08-10-2003, 01:17 AM   #17
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Tolkien

Sauron probably wanted to breed as many fierce and vile creatures into "His" world as he could. Plus, the more creatures he had in his service, the better I suppose.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:59 PM   #18
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(Going to the original question)


Uruk-hai are a mixture of Orcs and Goblin-men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 12-12-2003, 09:42 PM   #19
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Sting

Stop resurrecting old topics, which are all on the same subject- get one, and post in it, please
and, again, i want to see your quote! If you had read the thread, they think that was from the movie, so you have to give the quote, so they have proof.
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