Ecthelion vs 100 trolls???

[Gothmog]

As always, this question might be answered in some other thread, but I haven't found it...

I've heard a rumour about a fight between Ecthelion and 100 trolls where Ecthelion slew them all. I want to know: is this true? And if it is, when did that happen? were can one read about this event?

I hope you can clear this up and and help me erase the questionmarks...
Thanks for your help!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I am sorry to say, Gothmog, but I think you have been deceived, for Ecthelion 1st was the steward of Gondor who rebuilt the tower in Minas Tirith.

The seventeenth Ruling Steward of Gondor, who succeeded his father Orodreth to the Stewardship. He is most famous for rebuilding the White Tower that surmounted the city of Minas Tirith, which was afterwards known as the Tower of Ecthelion. He ruled in Gondor for just thirteen years, and was succeeded by his son Egalmoth.
The encyclopaedia of Arda, entry on Ecthelion I "The Steward who rebuilt Minas Tirith’s White Tower"

No other account is given of his actions.

Ecthelion II on the other hand was;

the son of Steward Turgon, and was a wise and foresightful Man. He put his efforts into strengthening his realm against the approaching danger of Sauron, who had openly revealed himself in the last years of Turgon's Stewardship. He was aided in this work by Gandalf, and by a mysterious stranger named 'Thorongil', who was later known to be none other than Aragorn. Ecthelion was succeeded as Steward by his son Denethor II, who ruled Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring.

There is nothing about slaying Trolls... not 100 of them anyway.

[NightKnight]

Hookbill, you seem to have forgotten an Ecthelion, the one in Gondolin. I haven't heard anything about him fighting trolls, so if any such material exists it must be in HoME. In BoLT however, it is said that Ecthelion and his men killed more orcs in a single attack than all other elves in all other wars altogether, and there might very well have been some trolls there.

[drigel]

Ecthelion of the Fountain was the slayer of Gothmog

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gothmog , the rumour wasn't quite that Ecthelion was in a fight with 100 trolls and killed them all. Rather, in a single battle (might have been the fall of Gondolin) he killed 100.

I believe the reference is in HoME (if it exists at all, that is). It may not be true.

[Gothmog]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, Hookbill the Goomba. I meant Ecthelion the elf, Ecthelion of the Fountain from Gondolin.

When was the attack when Ecthelion and his men "killed more orcs in a single attack than all other elves in all other wars altogether"? At the attack of Gondolin?

Ecthelion of the Fountain was the slayer of Gothmog

Yes I know drigel, but as you can see: I'm back I'm still a little angry with him though...

[Olorin_TLA]

Yep, at the battle for Gondolin. A grand day that (with the exception of the whole death of loads of Elves thing...:'() - many new records in slayage set. For instance, Balrogs were practically invincible prior to this, but Ecthelion and all the other brave Elves soon showed that they could be killed...en masse.

Hooray for Elves!!!

[NightKnight]

Yes, it's in BoLT 2. The Fall of Gondolin is a really great story.

[Gothmog]

Thanks for all your help. Hasn't read BoLT yet, there's not enough time But soon... I keep on going through The Hobbit, LoTR, Sil and Tales of the ME (is it called like that in english?? I've got the swedish version) instead

For instance, Balrogs were practically invincible prior to this, but Ecthelion and all the other brave Elves soon showed that they could be killed...en masse.

Excuse me for my neverending questioning (and now I go off-topic, IN MY OWN TOPIC!!! ) Was there more than 2 Balrogs killed at the assault of Gondolin? Did anyone else then Ecthelion and Glorfindel manage to slay one?

Once again, thank you!

[Olorin_TLA]

Yep, quite a few were killed. BUT: when Tolkien wrote this, Balrogs were different from the one in LotR, because they weren't as powerful, as they weren't Maia. Later Tolkein said that there would be only 3 or 7, at most, Balrogs, becuase if you had armies of them, as there were in BoLT, and they were as powerful as the Balrog of Moria, then they would taken over the world.

[Lord of Angmar]

Ecthelion didn't kill 100 trolls, though he did kill more than his share of Balrogs and orcs. You may be thinking of Hurin, who supposedly killed 70 trolls at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (although whether or not all 70 of the creatures he slew were trolls is highly debatable).

[Gothmog]

No, I wasn't thinking of Hurin. Actually this question popped up in my head when I was reading an other thread, the one about the strength of a troll (Just how hard is it to kill a Troll?). Somebody wrote something about Ecthelion killing 100 trolls, but they weren't sure there either...

Olorin, are you sure they wasn't as powerful as the "Moria-Balrog"? And maybe there wasn't armies but if you read Sil. you get the impression that they were more than 3...maybe even more than 7.

Regarding their strength: in the beginning of sil. (Valaquenta) Tolkien writes (translated from swedish, please ignore my errors)

And terrible amongst these deamons were valaraukar, the scourge of fire which in Middle-Earth were called Balrogs, deamons of fear

(isn't deamons of might???)
It's also said that they joined Melkor before Arda was created. I don't think the Moria-Balrog was different or more powerful than the others, but the warriors were more powerful at the time of tha battle of Gondolin.

[Olorin_TLA]

It makes sense to assume Durin's Bane was as powerful as other Balrogs; when Tolkien was revising the Silmarillion after writing LotR, he crossed out a mention ottwo of their being hosts of Balrogs, and wrote that there shouldn't be assumed to be more than 3 or 7. Also, in his writings about Glorfindel, one of the last things he wrote, he crossed out that he killed a Balrog and replaced it with "Demon", and contiuned to refer to it as a Demon and not a Balrog, anohter indication that the Balrogs had become much more powerful and rare in the post-LotR Silmarillion.

[Gothmog]

So it's really a question of what version you want to believe in: the original or the post-LotR... I stick with the version where Glorfindel killed a BALROG and no lesser demon

Otherwise, it must have been a powerful demon. It is said in Sil. that many songs were wrote about Glorfindel's fight with the-whatever-it-was and to make a fight that important, you need two great warriors

[Son of Númenor]

I can't think of much else new to add to this debate, so I will provide you with the added insight of a few respected Barrow-downers. Heren-Istarion's post #33, in particular, helped me to understand the many facets of the general Balrog debate in its entirety. It certainly seems to be one of the more oft-contradictory and open-ended discussions contained in Tolkien's works.

[NightKnight]

Gothmog, "Tales of the ME" is called UT, or Unfinished Tales, in English.

[Gothmog]

Yeah, thanks NightKnight, I remembered that a few days ago... thought of editing my post, but it slipped my mind...Thanks anyway, I really I had all the books in the english version. As it is now, I've only got The Hobbit, LoTR and Sil. in english, so I have some problems quoting UT...

Speaking of troubles quoting, this is (I think) the correct quote from Valaquenta, not the gothmog-translation seen above (didn't have my eng. Sil. with me when posting that)

Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.