A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 03-06-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Ok Findegil, I understand that you said to me that it isn’t worthwhile to buy or read it (Sil2001 I mean), isn’t it?

Yes, that it what I mean.

The 'relation' between Ingwe and Imin, you took is identity? Possible in that special case. But between Tata and Finwe is doubtful and Enel equvial to Elwe seems impossible since he had two brothers.

About Finwe and Miriel I have to look that up in our version, before commenting.

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe · 03-07-2009, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

The 'relation' between Ingwe and Imin, you took is identity? Possible in that special case. But between Tata and Finwe is doubtful and Enel equvial to Elwe seems impossible since he had two brothers.

As a legend not only as written by Tolkien but even among the Elves, the Cuivienyarna can be interpreted in several ways.

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten".

If we can take as truth the sentence about Ingwe above, we can think the same about Finwe, and so I explain what I made (translated more of less):

I mentioned the name of the legend then naming that three elves awoke first and the Three Houses were derived from these elves, so they were named simply MInyar, Tatyar and Nelyar. Later when the division of the elves I relation Ingwe with the Minyar Finwe with the Tatyar, etc, with the new names deriving from this firrst division (I mean Vanyar, etc) and in the next paragraph comes the sentence above about Ingwe.
Of course it's no mention of the wives for the matter of Miriel.

And as Eru- begotten people and as the Fëanturi and Nienna for example, Elwe and Olwe (and Elmo) can be brothers in the mind of Iluvatar.

So it stays only as an interpretation of the reader.

Only in the revised and enlarged index I established identity between the characters.

I hope had explained correctly.

Greetings.

Findegil · 03-07-2009, 06:25 AM

The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse?

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil · 03-07-2009, 10:06 AM

Gondonwe wrote:

Quote:

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen.

Unless I'm mistaken, this statement was written by Christopher Tolkien.

Findegil wrote:

Quote:

The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse?

Indeed, and pretty much any speculative solution involving the death of Enelye or anything along those lines is precluded by 'Finwe and Miriel'.

gondowe · 03-07-2009, 06:37 PM

I insist that it's a legend even for the elves themselves ( of Aman and Sindar) not a kwoledge as "the wise men say".
I only take the characters, and didn't mention the spouses for Miriel and of course (I had forgotten) for Melian.
I feel that if Ingwe was "the eldest for he awoke first" then Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third, and Unbegotten.
And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter.

Greetings

gondowe · 03-10-2009, 09:37 AM

Continuing on with my text. For example I decided to keep the picture of Melkor hurting the Trees instead of only Ungoliant. The image of the coming of the two, is glorious for me.

The rest was principally add text from AAm AG and QP here and there with some alussions, like in the chapter Of the coming of men in west, introducing Andreth and mentioning the speech conserved in the Athrabeth. And in the index telling the relation between Andreth and Aegnor.

From the Lay of the CoH I took aspect of the description of Nargothrond.

Of course in the chapter Of Beren and Luthien introduced material, principally dialogues and things like Dagmor his sword, etc from the lays.

The title Narn Beren ion-Barahir would be desirable if we had a more extensive source but comparing the other Narns in too short lamentably. So I decided to keep the title as “Silmarillion Tradition”. The same thing I did with the chapters Of Turin Turambar and Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, for the two independent “books” TCoH and TFoG.

Only in Of Turin, there was a restructuration of the text according with TCoH, adding the matter of Saeros and Dragon helm, discarded by CT in the new book.
As I said above, I consider TCoH as the definitive Narn for it was made by CT after publication of HoME, and “purgued”. And names as Saeros, Teiglin, Dorlas. etc were maintained for this reason.

In the Chapter Of Tuor only changed where is said “much of it was told in TFoG” to “much is said in the Narn e-dant Gondolin”

The rest of the final chapters were more difficult, and I’ll try to explain later.

Greetings

gondowe · 03-31-2009, 02:07 PM

By the way, a question. How exactly is going to be your project? will it be only a book? Two?
The structure?
What are you going to do with texts like Laws and Customs, Atrabeth, Quendi and Eldar, and the other texts from Unfinished Tales?

As I am going to re-structured now the order of my texts and revise the Narn Hurin, reduce WH for the QS, etc. You could give me your ideas, if I can make use of them.

Thank you and greetings

gondowe · 07-22-2009, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Gondonwe wrote:

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen.

Unless I'm mistaken, this statement was written by Christopher Tolkien.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gondowe

And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter.

Well, I remembered ( and I verified) that in the Lost Tales in the Tale of the Nauglafring Tinwelint said Úrin that his life beginned in Palisor unnumbered years before born the first Man. So from this sentence I Think CT made his in the Sill77. So Tolkien from the beginning thought that Thingol was an Unbegotten.

Greetings

Findegil · 07-22-2009, 05:30 AM

It is not clear that 'a live beginning in Cuivienen' is equal to being one of the unbegotten. I would assume that at least in the later form of the mythologie at least the second generation of Elfs was born in Cuivienen. And Thingol having two brethern was surley of that second generation.

But in the earlier form of the Legend things were other wise. For a time Feanor was planed to be the first Elfenchild ever. That means that we must ask if we should take that statment of Thingol up into our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil · 07-22-2009, 01:33 PM

As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material.

Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents.

Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'.

Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.

03-07-2009, 06:25 AM	#3
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse? Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 03-07-2009 at 06:41 AM.

03-31-2009, 02:07 PM	#7
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 245	Hello again By the way, a question. How exactly is going to be your project? will it be only a book? Two? The structure? What are you going to do with texts like Laws and Customs, Atrabeth, Quendi and Eldar, and the other texts from Unfinished Tales? As I am going to re-structured now the order of my texts and revise the Narn Hurin, reduce WH for the QS, etc. You could give me your ideas, if I can make use of them. Thank you and greetings

03-07-2009, 06:37 PM	#5
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 245	I insist that it's a legend even for the elves themselves ( of Aman and Sindar) not a kwoledge as "the wise men say". I only take the characters, and didn't mention the spouses for Miriel and of course (I had forgotten) for Melian. I feel that if Ingwe was "the eldest for he awoke first" then Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third, and Unbegotten. And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter. Greetings

03-10-2009, 09:37 AM	#6
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 245	Continuing on with my text. For example I decided to keep the picture of Melkor hurting the Trees instead of only Ungoliant. The image of the coming of the two, is glorious for me. The rest was principally add text from AAm AG and QP here and there with some alussions, like in the chapter Of the coming of men in west, introducing Andreth and mentioning the speech conserved in the Athrabeth. And in the index telling the relation between Andreth and Aegnor. From the Lay of the CoH I took aspect of the description of Nargothrond. Of course in the chapter Of Beren and Luthien introduced material, principally dialogues and things like Dagmor his sword, etc from the lays. The title Narn Beren ion-Barahir would be desirable if we had a more extensive source but comparing the other Narns in too short lamentably. So I decided to keep the title as “Silmarillion Tradition”. The same thing I did with the chapters Of Turin Turambar and Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, for the two independent “books” TCoH and TFoG. Only in Of Turin, there was a restructuration of the text according with TCoH, adding the matter of Saeros and Dragon helm, discarded by CT in the new book. As I said above, I consider TCoH as the definitive Narn for it was made by CT after publication of HoME, and “purgued”. And names as Saeros, Teiglin, Dorlas. etc were maintained for this reason. In the Chapter Of Tuor only changed where is said “much of it was told in TFoG” to “much is said in the Narn e-dant Gondolin” The rest of the final chapters were more difficult, and I’ll try to explain later. Greetings

07-22-2009, 05:30 AM	#9
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,694	It is not clear that 'a live beginning in Cuivienen' is equal to being one of the unbegotten. I would assume that at least in the later form of the mythologie at least the second generation of Elfs was born in Cuivienen. And Thingol having two brethern was surley of that second generation. But in the earlier form of the Legend things were other wise. For a time Feanor was planed to be the first Elfenchild ever. That means that we must ask if we should take that statment of Thingol up into our version. Respectfully Findegil

07-22-2009, 01:33 PM	#10
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material. Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents. Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'. Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.