Harry Potter and The Stolen Plot... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Princess of Mirkwood · 11-04-2002, 02:51 PM

Has anyone ever noticed how similar Harry Potter and LOTR are?....

I was thinking about it the other day and I came up with this:

1) Frodo has a ring which makes him invisible, Harry has a cloak which makes him invisible

2) Gollum has very bad grammer, and Dobby the house elf (who looks a lot like Gollumn) also has bad grammer

3) Both books/films have very old, eccentric wizards with long grey beards and hair

Maybe I'm imagining things, or maybe I think too much when I'm bored!

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

HerenIstarion · 11-04-2002, 03:30 PM

Not so stolen I daresay. Similiraities are not essential - after all, almost all wizards in history were supposed to be bearded, and there were quite a few items with magical qualities, among those flying carpets, rings/cloaks/caps of invisibility etc, so ideas are just common and free to be picked up by every one. And Dobby, though not very educated, is not similar to Gollum in his essential - he's magical creature, and Gollum is human. Nor the genre - Harry is school-story, though colored with magic and with very tense plot, and LoTR is epic far more profound. And though in both books the main enemy is labelled Dark Lord, Harry and LoTr can't and must not be weighed on the same scale - you don't get heavy weight champion boxer on the same ring as a amateur feather weight, do you?
So, let the children (J.K.Rowling, with all respect, in this case) play...

disclaimer: H-I read all 4 Harry Potter books 2 times and found those most fascinating, yet still...

Morgul Queen · 11-04-2002, 06:03 PM

But seriously compare these people/things
Nazgul/Dementors
Mirror of Galadriel/Mirror of Erisad
Mirkwood/Forbidden Forest

Love Morgul [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Orual · 11-04-2002, 06:14 PM

What's really similar to LotR are the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander. You can tell that somebody'd read Tolkien more than once! You can draw parallels to some of the characters (Gwydion is Aragorn, Dallben is Gandalf, etc.) and the end is so close to the end of RotK that it's not even funny.

~*~Orual~*~

Manwe Sulimo · 11-04-2002, 06:57 PM

*Coughs*

Wormtongue....Wormtail....Wormtongue...

*Coughs*

mithuel · 11-04-2002, 07:24 PM

I think in most cases, writers of fantasy fiction have been inspired to write fantasy in the first place after reading Lord of the Rings. Such writers list Tolkien again and again as the most profound influence on their work.
It would be a very foolish writer who actually plagiarised Tolkien (they would have zero chance of getting away with it) but subliminal influences from his work must occur all the time. Also, when similarities with Tolkien do exist, and the writer has acknowledged him as an inspiration, this can be seen rather more as a form of homage or respect to Tolkien's work. He started a whole new genre of writing so it is small wonder that his influence can be so often perceived.

onewhitetree · 11-04-2002, 07:50 PM

Believe it or not, few of Tolkien's ideas contained in the actual plot of The Hobbit and LotR were really, truly original. Smaug is the dragon from Beowulf (so sly! so philosophically unorthodox!), and the Valar are extremely similar to Norse mythological gods and goddesses. Above all, be it allegory or no (a can of worms in which I care not to be involved), LotR is "Christian, and what is more, Roman Catholic," to quote the old man himself (not you, Sharkey). Morals aren't new now, and they weren't new then.

Kalimac · 11-04-2002, 10:22 PM

Tolkien not only combined a lot of older themes/stories/ideas in his stories, he seems hardly to have left any of them OUT! Can you imagine trying to write a fantasy story with NO Tolkienesque components at all? No orphaned/solitary heroes, no wizards (good or evil), no riddled-with-evil Dark Lord, no wicked agents, no comic companions, no princesses who love adventurers (or someone that their father doesn't approve of) no faithful steed, no friggin' QUEST. It wouldn't be worth reading at the end. NOT that I'm saying that people should just be allowed to lift from Tolkien wholesale (yes, "Sword of Shannara" I'm looking in your direction) but that there are going to be parallels if you look hard enough.

For Harry Potter, the only parallel that really took me aback was the Dementors; I can't think of a mythological figure to parallel them, and they are very like the Nazgul. I don't know about the Mirror of Erised, though - magic mirrors of whatever kind have been a fairy-tale staple since Snow White, and Erised is very different from Galadriel's mirror - much less ambiguous; you see what you wish you were or had. With Galadriel you can see past, present, future, and possible future - the trick is telling which is which. And for Dobby - well, Dobby seems to fall more on the comic-companion side of the slate.

Wormtail and Wormtongue are probably related, but it's a small enough element that you can call it an Homage and not a Plagiarism [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Besides, Tolkien hardly has a hammerlock on nasty, snivelly little characters with "Worm" in their names. How about C.S. Lewis's tempter Wormwood, nephew of Screwtape?

Orual - I see what you mean about Prydain? But who gets to be Prince Rhun? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. (Even Pippin has more intellectual firepower than that young man does).

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

Orual · 11-05-2002, 06:44 PM

LoL, Kalimac! Prince Rhun was...yeah, a little lacking in genius. Not exactly the "wisest of the wise," I think I can safely say. As for a parallel there, you got me! Prince Rhun, I believe, was totally Alexander. ^_^

I agree, though. Tolkien had both a lot of influence and a lot of influences. I think that Gwydian was actually based on a mythological character, not Aragorn, but they were so similar...and the whole Dallben/Gandalf thing blew me away. (I can even hear Gandalf saying some of Dallben's lines..."I am far too old to be polite!") But it was the ending that really threw me for a loop. However, because I can just see somebody two chapters away from finishing the High King reading this thread, I won't give it away...suffice to say that it was so similar that it left no doubt that Tolkien was a huge influence in Alexander's writing. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

~*~Orual~*~

Frodo Baggins · 11-05-2002, 09:19 PM

Orual, I just recognised your name. I love that story, it made me cry. Where is Redival and Istra/Psyche? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Well, someone told me about the Wormtail?Wormtaogue thing. I personally have never read HP. Not to be mean but J.K Rowling should just leave off all the witchcraft and GO HOME! An i'm mad that LOTR movies mut be preceede by a HP movie every year!!!!
There's no comparison, LOTR is one million times better!

Orual · 11-05-2002, 09:29 PM

That's right, Frodo Baggins, it's from "Till We Have Faces." Wasn't it wonderful?? I'd never read Lewis before (I couldn't stand the Narnia Chronicles...: [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]repares to be stoned: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], but I totally fell in love with Orual. It's kind of like Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, only...well, only good. My brother, the mythology guru, told me that in the original Orual is jealous and evil, but Lewis so beautifully brought out her side of the story...

Anyhow, comparing LotR to HP is like...is like...shooting a fly with an elephant gun. LotR is a lifetime's achievement, an accomplishment that few people will ever have. Harry Potter is just...not. No two ways about it. LotR is an adult's book, and HP is a children's book. Comparing HP to the Hobbit would be more fair, but even then it's no comparison. There just aren't any writers like Tolkien anymore. It's like my sig...after Tolkien, "there went the last"...great fantasy author.

~*~Orual~*~

LePetitChoux · 11-06-2002, 12:27 PM

Um, this thread has kinda been done hundreds of times before, but I'll post anyway.

Harry potter is extremely similar to LotR, but SO WHAT? Its clearly almost definitely NOT a coincidence, but I must say I loved the harry potter books. If JKR did in fact copy soe things, then she has done a good job of transforming them. I mean the whole overall plot of most stories is the same: GOOD

vs EVIL
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . Would you call it bad that JRRT "borrowed" a few ideas from previous stories? NO, because the way he did it is completely amazing! Same with JKR, she may not have all original ideas, but at least what she does is good. If it was completely unimaginative, THEN I'd let off steam!

Rumil · 11-06-2002, 04:02 PM

Have you looked at the Hogwarts Crest-
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
'Numquam titillandibus drac dormiens'
(my Latin is rusty so I may have got that a bit wrong)

Does it remind you of a not entirely unrelated Tolkien saying?

On the back of my copy of the Philosopher's Stone, Dumbledore's name is embroidered on his cloak in Dwarven runes. (OK, Elven runes really but you know what I mean!)

I'm sure JK Rowling put these snippets in to pay homage to the great man, but I find more similarities in her work to old public school children's stories of the 50s and before, even perhaps Tom Brown's schooldays.
Now all we need is a 'Flashman' - perhaps Draco Malfoy - to continue the series in more hilarious fashion.
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Faye Took · 11-06-2002, 06:06 PM

Well maybe Tolkien enspired her?
Or just an Odd coinsedence (sp?)?

Bill Ferny · 11-09-2002, 11:57 AM

Rumil,

I’m not aware of a Tolkien saying that goes like, never tickle a sleeping dragon. Is that Latin phrase in the books or just in the movie?

TolkienGurl · 11-09-2002, 12:09 PM

Have you noticed how similar LOTR and The Sword of Shannara series are!?!? My uncle told me that it was intentional, because Terry Brooks (the author) wanted to pay a tribute to Tolkien.

Besides, LOTR and Harry Potter are 2 absolutely different books. Maybe Rowling used some elements of Tolkien's, but she didn't copy his ideas at all.

Anyway, both of these topics have been discussed elsewhere. Its really not that important.

Harry Potter and Tolkien (4 pages) N&N
Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter? (4 pages) N&N

LePetitChoux · 11-09-2002, 12:23 PM

My friend saw HP&tCoS yesterday and says the new HP movie is even worse than the 1st....What can that mean? I thought Philosopher's Stone was as bad as films go...

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: LePetitChoux ]

Bill Ferny · 11-09-2002, 12:38 PM

LePet,

How did your friend see it? It doesn't come out for another 5 days.

Edit: Was there already a showing in England?

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

LePetitChoux · 11-09-2002, 01:32 PM

I guess an early screening... they do that sometimes.

Ainalondwen · 11-09-2002, 01:39 PM

Oh dear, I haven't seen the first Harry Potter film...hold on, I haven't read any of the books either.

I have only seen the trailers for the films, and I am quite surprised about the similarities. But I suppose that is the way with fantasy writers, a lot of inspiration from the man himself.

I believe in Tolkein.

Bill Ferny · 11-09-2002, 04:38 PM

I completely understand some people not liking Harry Potter. Believe it or not, there are those who don't like LotR! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] However, there's very little similar about the two. Its like comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, Harry Potter has wizards, dragons, at least one sword, and an evil villain. If that is the basis for saying Rawling plagiarized from Tolkien, then you had better be prepared to get rid of every scrap of fantasy ever written.

I can't believe the audacity of those thirteenth century minstrels to have read the future and to have stolen from Tolkien when they put together the Authorian Legends! Those bastards!

VanimaEdhel · 11-10-2002, 04:13 PM

Haven't we had a discussion about "Homages to Lord of the Rings" already? About how so many other books reflect an aspect of Lord of the Rings?

Rumil · 11-10-2002, 06:52 PM

Bill,

the quote I was thinking of is in The Hobbit, where Bilbo says 'never laugh at sleeping dragons' which 'later became a saying'.

I think there's more than enough room for JRRT and JKR, their greatest similarity being that they're both un-putdown-able! Does anyone know when the 'Order of the Phoenix' is due out now?

Bill Ferny · 11-10-2002, 06:59 PM

Ah, ok. Thanks Rumil.

Its infuriating that its taking so long for the fifth book to come out. I heard that one of the reasons it is taking so long is that the books will be getting more and more sinister, and JKR wants to let "her kids" grow up a bit.

Frodo Baggins · 11-10-2002, 07:39 PM

Rumil, read "The Hobbit" again. Bilbo actually said "Never laugh at live dragons".

What the heck is a "House Elf" anyway. Not a true elf (e.g. Legolas) I imagine.

Orual · 11-10-2002, 07:54 PM

House elves! LoL! Don't get me STARTED! I had nightmares for days after I saw that stupid picture in Chamber of Secrets...it was a wee bit much for me to handle right on the slide from LotR. It was like a hairpin turn. Legolas... Galadriel... Elrond... Arwen... Haldir... WHAM! Dobby. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Kind of like a kick in the head, no? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

~*~Orual~*~

Bill Ferny · 11-10-2002, 08:45 PM

Hmmm, now we've seemed to have come full circle, from complaining that HP was too much like LotR, to now HP's elves aren't enough like LotR's elves.

Edit: By the way, Tolkien never claimed to have a monopoly on true elves. Its kind of difficult seeing as how elves aren't real.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Orual · 11-10-2002, 08:52 PM

No complaining from me! Not then and not now. It would've been all the more disturbing if J.K. Rowling had made them more like Tolkien's elves. ::thinks about it, shudders. Thinks, shudders...::

Oh, I know that Tolkien never had a monopoly on true elves. He just had one on my perception of elves.

~*~Orual~*~

Bill Ferny · 11-10-2002, 09:15 PM

Actually I was refering to Frodo Baggins' post, not yours. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Orome · 11-10-2002, 09:38 PM

basically the harry potter movies were made for little kids who would just be in awe of the "magic". the movie was not well done at all, the books are decent, but the movies were/are abysmal.

just my 2 cents worth

11-11-2002, 01:27 PM

I like both the books and the films but i could quite happily sit there and watch a film which had all the parts of the book even if it was 6 or 7 hours long!

Rumil · 11-11-2002, 01:41 PM

Frodo, you're quite right, I was typing from memory and got not only the Potter quote back to front but the Bilbo quote mixed up !

Ho Hum, I think I'm going senile and thus really shouldn't be reading Harry Potter. Well I am nearly 7000 years old...

Amanaduial the archer · 11-11-2002, 03:02 PM

*cough*

Dark Lord...jeez, she didnt even try to change that one...

*cough*

still, Im thinking a little more kindly of JK Rowling at the moment (considering my usual opinions of her, not hard!) ever since I found out that Voldemorte means Flight Of Death, which is incredibly classy...

dragoneyes · 11-11-2002, 03:23 PM

I really like the books, but I have to say I find a huge amount wrong with the film(s) so I can't really watch it more than once [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

steve · 11-11-2002, 07:15 PM

What about this
Faramir in TTT named Sauron as The one who we do not name and in HP they call whats his name the one who should not be named, and also how many times do it give refrence to Sauron changing shape to fit his needs, IE werewolf, and this is used by that bag guy in Hp also

alatar · 12-17-2010, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve

What about this
Faramir in TTT named Sauron as The one who we do not name and in HP they call whats his name the one who should not be named, and also how many times do it give refrence to Sauron changing shape to fit his needs, IE werewolf, and this is used by that bag guy in Hp also

I too found it interesting that both Rowling and Tolkien use the 'he whom we do not name' nomenclature for the bad guy.

Why this today? I've been reading the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE SYSTEM OF NATURE; or, THE LAWS of the MORAL AND PHYSICAL WORLD.
Translated from the original French of M. DE MIRABAUD, Vol. II, circa 1820.

It was in the lap of ignorance, in the season of alarm, in the bosom of calamity, that mankind ever formed his first notions of the Divinity. From hence it is obvious that his ideas on this subject are to be suspected, that his notions are in a great measure false, that they are always afflicting. Indeed, upon whatever part of our sphere we cast our eyes, whether it be upon the frozen climates of the north, upon the parching regions of the south, or under the more temperate zones, we every where behold the people when assailed by misfortunes, have either made to themselves national gods, or else have adopted those which have been given them by their conquerors; before these beings, either of their own creation or adoption, they have tremblingly prostrated themselves in the hour of calamity, soliciting relief; have ignorantly attributed to blocks of stone, or to men like themselves, those natural effects which were above their comprehension; the inhabitants of many nations, not contented with the national gods, made each to himself one or more gods, which he supposed presided exclusively over his own household, from whom he supposed he derived his own peculiar happiness, to whom he attributed all his domestic misfortunes. The idea of these powerful agents, these supposed distributors of good and evil, was always associated with that of terror; their name was never pronounced without recalling to man's wind either his own particular calamities or those of his fathers. In many places man trembles at this day, because his progenitors have trembled for thousands of years past. The thought of his gods always awakened in man the most afflicting ideas. If he recurred to the source of his actual fears, to the commencement of those melancholy impressions that stamp themselves in his mind when their name is announced, he would find it in the conflagrations, in the revolutions, in those extended disasters, that have at various times destroyed large portions of the human race; that overwhelmed with dismay those miserable beings who escaped the destruction of the earth; these in transmitting to posterity, the tradition of such afflicting events, have also transmitted to him their fears; have delivered down to their successors, those gloomy ideas which their bewildered imaginations, coupled with their barbarous ignorance of natural causes, had formed to them of the anger of their irritated gods, to which their alarm falsely attributed these sweeping disasters. (emphasis mine)

As we can see above, not naming something was a way of hiding from destructive forces. Faramir, I assume, did not name Sauron as it might have been thought to bring the attention of the Eye. Inhabitants of Harry Potter's world do not say Voldemort's name as, I assume, it may bring evil.

Is there a word that, today in RL, you do not speak as you feel that, by naming it, you bring about misfortune?

Inziladun · 12-17-2010, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Is there a word that, today in RL, you do not speak as you feel that, by naming it, you bring about misfortune?

The terror that is GaGa.

Morthoron · 12-17-2010, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The terror that is GaGa.

Now you've gone and done it!

*awaits the apocalypse*

Galadriel55 · 12-17-2010, 03:11 PM

Aside from the similarities already mentioned, there is one that really jumped out at me when I read HP1. That random centaur, Firenze, who saves Harry in the Forbidden Forest plays exactly Gildor's role. Even the dialogue is similar. Then, you can't destory Sauron without destroying the Ring, in which he put a good chunk of his power; you can't destroy Voldemort without destroying the Horcruxes, which contain his soul. Btw, I heard that some JRRT fan sued Rowling for this one

. And Aragog is an exact copy of Shelob.

xMellrynxMaidenx · 12-18-2010, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Is there a word that, today in RL, you do not speak as you feel that, by naming it, you bring about misfortune?

Twilight.

I call it the Series That Shall Not Be Named, in my house. Of course, my mother doesn't find it the least bit amusing.

11-04-2002, 02:51 PM	#1
Princess of Mirkwood Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK Posts: 14	Harry Potter and The Stolen Plot... Has anyone ever noticed how similar Harry Potter and LOTR are?.... I was thinking about it the other day and I came up with this: 1) Frodo has a ring which makes him invisible, Harry has a cloak which makes him invisible 2) Gollum has very bad grammer, and Dobby the house elf (who looks a lot like Gollumn) also has bad grammer 3) Both books/films have very old, eccentric wizards with long grey beards and hair Maybe I'm imagining things, or maybe I think too much when I'm bored! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ~Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm schizophrenic and I am too~

11-04-2002, 03:30 PM	#2
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Not so stolen I daresay. Similiraities are not essential - after all, almost all wizards in history were supposed to be bearded, and there were quite a few items with magical qualities, among those flying carpets, rings/cloaks/caps of invisibility etc, so ideas are just common and free to be picked up by every one. And Dobby, though not very educated, is not similar to Gollum in his essential - he's magical creature, and Gollum is human. Nor the genre - Harry is school-story, though colored with magic and with very tense plot, and LoTR is epic far more profound. And though in both books the main enemy is labelled Dark Lord, Harry and LoTr can't and must not be weighed on the same scale - you don't get heavy weight champion boxer on the same ring as a amateur feather weight, do you? So, let the children (J.K.Rowling, with all respect, in this case) play... disclaimer: H-I read all 4 Harry Potter books 2 times and found those most fascinating, yet still... __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

11-04-2002, 06:03 PM	#3
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	But seriously compare these people/things Nazgul/Dementors Mirror of Galadriel/Mirror of Erisad Mirkwood/Forbidden Forest Love Morgul [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

11-04-2002, 06:14 PM	#4
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	What's really similar to LotR are the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander. You can tell that somebody'd read Tolkien more than once! You can draw parallels to some of the characters (Gwydion is Aragorn, Dallben is Gandalf, etc.) and the end is so close to the end of RotK that it's not even funny. ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-04-2002, 06:57 PM	#5
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Coughs Wormtongue....Wormtail....Wormtongue... Coughs __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-04-2002, 07:24 PM	#6
mithuel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 13	I think in most cases, writers of fantasy fiction have been inspired to write fantasy in the first place after reading Lord of the Rings. Such writers list Tolkien again and again as the most profound influence on their work. It would be a very foolish writer who actually plagiarised Tolkien (they would have zero chance of getting away with it) but subliminal influences from his work must occur all the time. Also, when similarities with Tolkien do exist, and the writer has acknowledged him as an inspiration, this can be seen rather more as a form of homage or respect to Tolkien's work. He started a whole new genre of writing so it is small wonder that his influence can be so often perceived.

11-04-2002, 07:50 PM	#7
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	Believe it or not, few of Tolkien's ideas contained in the actual plot of The Hobbit and LotR were really, truly original. Smaug is the dragon from Beowulf (so sly! so philosophically unorthodox!), and the Valar are extremely similar to Norse mythological gods and goddesses. Above all, be it allegory or no (a can of worms in which I care not to be involved), LotR is "Christian, and what is more, Roman Catholic," to quote the old man himself (not you, Sharkey). Morals aren't new now, and they weren't new then. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

11-04-2002, 10:22 PM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Tolkien not only combined a lot of older themes/stories/ideas in his stories, he seems hardly to have left any of them OUT! Can you imagine trying to write a fantasy story with NO Tolkienesque components at all? No orphaned/solitary heroes, no wizards (good or evil), no riddled-with-evil Dark Lord, no wicked agents, no comic companions, no princesses who love adventurers (or someone that their father doesn't approve of) no faithful steed, no friggin' QUEST. It wouldn't be worth reading at the end. NOT that I'm saying that people should just be allowed to lift from Tolkien wholesale (yes, "Sword of Shannara" I'm looking in your direction) but that there are going to be parallels if you look hard enough. For Harry Potter, the only parallel that really took me aback was the Dementors; I can't think of a mythological figure to parallel them, and they are very like the Nazgul. I don't know about the Mirror of Erised, though - magic mirrors of whatever kind have been a fairy-tale staple since Snow White, and Erised is very different from Galadriel's mirror - much less ambiguous; you see what you wish you were or had. With Galadriel you can see past, present, future, and possible future - the trick is telling which is which. And for Dobby - well, Dobby seems to fall more on the comic-companion side of the slate. Wormtail and Wormtongue are probably related, but it's a small enough element that you can call it an Homage and not a Plagiarism [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Besides, Tolkien hardly has a hammerlock on nasty, snivelly little characters with "Worm" in their names. How about C.S. Lewis's tempter Wormwood, nephew of Screwtape? Orual - I see what you mean about Prydain? But who gets to be Prince Rhun? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. (Even Pippin has more intellectual firepower than that young man does). [ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ] __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-05-2002, 06:44 PM	#9
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	LoL, Kalimac! Prince Rhun was...yeah, a little lacking in genius. Not exactly the "wisest of the wise," I think I can safely say. As for a parallel there, you got me! Prince Rhun, I believe, was totally Alexander. ^_^ I agree, though. Tolkien had both a lot of influence and a lot of influences. I think that Gwydian was actually based on a mythological character, not Aragorn, but they were so similar...and the whole Dallben/Gandalf thing blew me away. (I can even hear Gandalf saying some of Dallben's lines..."I am far too old to be polite!") But it was the ending that really threw me for a loop. However, because I can just see somebody two chapters away from finishing the High King reading this thread, I won't give it away...suffice to say that it was so similar that it left no doubt that Tolkien was a huge influence in Alexander's writing. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-05-2002, 09:19 PM	#10
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Orual, I just recognised your name. I love that story, it made me cry. Where is Redival and Istra/Psyche? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Well, someone told me about the Wormtail?Wormtaogue thing. I personally have never read HP. Not to be mean but J.K Rowling should just leave off all the witchcraft and GO HOME! An i'm mad that LOTR movies mut be preceede by a HP movie every year!!!! There's no comparison, LOTR is one million times better! __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

11-05-2002, 09:29 PM	#11
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	That's right, Frodo Baggins, it's from "Till We Have Faces." Wasn't it wonderful?? I'd never read Lewis before (I couldn't stand the Narnia Chronicles...: [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]repares to be stoned: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], but I totally fell in love with Orual. It's kind of like Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, only...well, only good. My brother, the mythology guru, told me that in the original Orual is jealous and evil, but Lewis so beautifully brought out her side of the story... Anyhow, comparing LotR to HP is like...is like...shooting a fly with an elephant gun. LotR is a lifetime's achievement, an accomplishment that few people will ever have. Harry Potter is just...not. No two ways about it. LotR is an adult's book, and HP is a children's book. Comparing HP to the Hobbit would be more fair, but even then it's no comparison. There just aren't any writers like Tolkien anymore. It's like my sig...after Tolkien, "there went the last"...great fantasy author. ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-06-2002, 12:27 PM	#12
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	Um, this thread has kinda been done hundreds of times before, but I'll post anyway. Harry potter is extremely similar to LotR, but SO WHAT? Its clearly almost definitely NOT a coincidence, but I must say I loved the harry potter books. If JKR did in fact copy soe things, then she has done a good job of transforming them. I mean the whole overall plot of most stories is the same: GOOD vs EVIL [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . Would you call it bad that JRRT "borrowed" a few ideas from previous stories? NO, because the way he did it is completely amazing! Same with JKR, she may not have all original ideas, but at least what she does is good. If it was completely unimaginative, THEN I'd let off steam! __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

11-06-2002, 04:02 PM	#13
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	Have you looked at the Hogwarts Crest- [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] 'Numquam titillandibus drac dormiens' (my Latin is rusty so I may have got that a bit wrong) Does it remind you of a not entirely unrelated Tolkien saying? On the back of my copy of the Philosopher's Stone, Dumbledore's name is embroidered on his cloak in Dwarven runes. (OK, Elven runes really but you know what I mean!) I'm sure JK Rowling put these snippets in to pay homage to the great man, but I find more similarities in her work to old public school children's stories of the 50s and before, even perhaps Tom Brown's schooldays. Now all we need is a 'Flashman' - perhaps Draco Malfoy - to continue the series in more hilarious fashion. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

11-06-2002, 06:06 PM	#14
Faye Took Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 343	Well maybe Tolkien enspired her? Or just an Odd coinsedence (sp?)? __________________ Dream-of the ones who came before. They are calling from across a distant shore. My Blog

11-09-2002, 11:57 AM	#15
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Rumil, I’m not aware of a Tolkien saying that goes like, never tickle a sleeping dragon. Is that Latin phrase in the books or just in the movie? __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-09-2002, 12:09 PM	#16
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	Have you noticed how similar LOTR and The Sword of Shannara series are!?!? My uncle told me that it was intentional, because Terry Brooks (the author) wanted to pay a tribute to Tolkien. Besides, LOTR and Harry Potter are 2 absolutely different books. Maybe Rowling used some elements of Tolkien's, but she didn't copy his ideas at all. Anyway, both of these topics have been discussed elsewhere. Its really not that important. Harry Potter and Tolkien (4 pages) N&N Re:Any opinions of Harry Potter? (4 pages) N&N __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

11-09-2002, 12:23 PM	#17
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	My friend saw HP&tCoS yesterday and says the new HP movie is even worse than the 1st....What can that mean? I thought Philosopher's Stone was as bad as films go... [ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: LePetitChoux ] __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

11-09-2002, 12:38 PM	#18
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	LePet, How did your friend see it? It doesn't come out for another 5 days. Edit: Was there already a showing in England? [ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-09-2002, 01:32 PM	#19
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	I guess an early screening... they do that sometimes. __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

11-09-2002, 01:39 PM	#20
Ainalondwen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The (Perth)Shire, Scotland Posts: 22	Oh dear, I haven't seen the first Harry Potter film...hold on, I haven't read any of the books either. I have only seen the trailers for the films, and I am quite surprised about the similarities. But I suppose that is the way with fantasy writers, a lot of inspiration from the man himself. I believe in Tolkein. __________________ Aa' i'sul nora lanne'lle, Aa' lasser en lle coia orn n' omenta gurtha, Aa' menealle nauva calen ar' malta, Aa' menle nauva calen ar' ta hwesta e' ale'quenle Read Feist

11-09-2002, 04:38 PM	#21
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	I completely understand some people not liking Harry Potter. Believe it or not, there are those who don't like LotR! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] However, there's very little similar about the two. Its like comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, Harry Potter has wizards, dragons, at least one sword, and an evil villain. If that is the basis for saying Rawling plagiarized from Tolkien, then you had better be prepared to get rid of every scrap of fantasy ever written. I can't believe the audacity of those thirteenth century minstrels to have read the future and to have stolen from Tolkien when they put together the Authorian Legends! Those bastards! __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-10-2002, 04:13 PM	#22
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Haven't we had a discussion about "Homages to Lord of the Rings" already? About how so many other books reflect an aspect of Lord of the Rings? __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

11-10-2002, 06:52 PM	#23
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	Bill, the quote I was thinking of is in The Hobbit, where Bilbo says 'never laugh at sleeping dragons' which 'later became a saying'. I think there's more than enough room for JRRT and JKR, their greatest similarity being that they're both un-putdown-able! Does anyone know when the 'Order of the Phoenix' is due out now? __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

11-10-2002, 06:59 PM	#24
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Ah, ok. Thanks Rumil. Its infuriating that its taking so long for the fifth book to come out. I heard that one of the reasons it is taking so long is that the books will be getting more and more sinister, and JKR wants to let "her kids" grow up a bit. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-10-2002, 07:39 PM	#25
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Rumil, read "The Hobbit" again. Bilbo actually said "Never laugh at live dragons". What the heck is a "House Elf" anyway. Not a true elf (e.g. Legolas) I imagine. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

11-10-2002, 07:54 PM	#26
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	House elves! LoL! Don't get me STARTED! I had nightmares for days after I saw that stupid picture in Chamber of Secrets...it was a wee bit much for me to handle right on the slide from LotR. It was like a hairpin turn. Legolas... Galadriel... Elrond... Arwen... Haldir... WHAM! Dobby. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Kind of like a kick in the head, no? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-10-2002, 08:45 PM	#27
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Hmmm, now we've seemed to have come full circle, from complaining that HP was too much like LotR, to now HP's elves aren't enough like LotR's elves. Edit: By the way, Tolkien never claimed to have a monopoly on true elves. Its kind of difficult seeing as how elves aren't real. [ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-10-2002, 08:52 PM	#28
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	No complaining from me! Not then and not now. It would've been all the more disturbing if J.K. Rowling had made them more like Tolkien's elves. ::thinks about it, shudders. Thinks, shudders...:: Oh, I know that Tolkien never had a monopoly on true elves. He just had one on my perception of elves. ~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-10-2002, 09:15 PM	#29
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Actually I was refering to Frodo Baggins' post, not yours. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

11-10-2002, 09:38 PM	#30
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	basically the harry potter movies were made for little kids who would just be in awe of the "magic". the movie was not well done at all, the books are decent, but the movies were/are abysmal. just my 2 cents worth

11-11-2002, 01:27 PM	#31
Giggles Guest Posts: n/a	I like both the books and the films but i could quite happily sit there and watch a film which had all the parts of the book even if it was 6 or 7 hours long!

11-11-2002, 01:41 PM	#32
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 893	Frodo, you're quite right, I was typing from memory and got not only the Potter quote back to front but the Bilbo quote mixed up ! Ho Hum, I think I'm going senile and thus really shouldn't be reading Harry Potter. Well I am nearly 7000 years old... __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

11-11-2002, 03:02 PM	#33
Amanaduial the archer Shadow of Starlight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: dancing among the ledgerlines... Posts: 2,347	cough Dark Lord...jeez, she didnt even try to change that one... cough still, Im thinking a little more kindly of JK Rowling at the moment (considering my usual opinions of her, not hard!) ever since I found out that Voldemorte means Flight Of Death, which is incredibly classy... __________________ I am what I was, a harmless little devil

11-11-2002, 03:23 PM	#34
dragoneyes Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Completely lost track, sorry! Posts: 733	I really like the books, but I have to say I find a huge amount wrong with the film(s) so I can't really watch it more than once [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ "We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo.

11-11-2002, 07:15 PM	#35
steve Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edoras... er, Philadelphia Posts: 191	What about this Faramir in TTT named Sauron as The one who we do not name and in HP they call whats his name the one who should not be named, and also how many times do it give refrence to Sauron changing shape to fit his needs, IE werewolf, and this is used by that bag guy in Hp also __________________ MAGIC SHOP! Spells of Mass Destruction 20% off! Today Only!