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Old 02-26-2014, 06:05 PM   #121
Ivriniel
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
This was from a disregarded draft. At the time they were chosen as stewards, they may not have had the royal connection.
The Stewarship, as we know, was incepted after Earnil got dun in when he took the challenge put to him by the Nazgul of Minas Morgal (which we know was the Witch King). I would have thought that any claim to Anarion would have been thoroughly looked at when Earnil vanished. Dol Amroth's legacy was to Amroth of Lorien and Finduilas. I've never heard of a reference to any marriage of this line with that of Elendil.

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I personally think there is some leeway about what happened to Halfelven before the decision, but once the judgment of Mandos is made all of the Halfelven are mortal.
Do you mean this to read after the Choice of the Peredhil was Gifted to the children of the union of Elves and Men, and to their children? To decide which kindred to belong to.

There was one 'one way mirror' concept in the Choice of the Peredhil. A Half Elf who chose the Life of the Eldar could have children, even born of an Elf, who could become immortal. But, the converse was not true. Once a Half-Elf chooses a mortal life, their children cannot choose the life of the Elven. So, Although Aragorn's and Arwen's children, for example, bear almost as much Elven blood as Elrond, there is no choice allowed to them.

Even had one of their children married an Elf (full blooded) nothing is stated in the mythology about what happens to the Elf by way of lifespan. The only precedent is Luthien, who did die, but that occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was incepted when Earendil made his way to Valinor.

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Old 02-26-2014, 06:21 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Ivriniel View Post
The Stewarship, as we know, was incepted after Earnil got dun in when he took the challenge put to him by the Nazgul of Minas Morgal (which we know was the Witch King). I would have thought that any claim to Anarion would have been thoroughly looked at when Earnil vanished. Dol Amroth's legacy was to Amroth of Lorien and Finduilas. I've never heard of a reference to any marriage of this line with that of Elendil.
As the Steward announces, the throne of Gondor was passed strictly to the SONS of Anarion. They followed Salic succession, so anyone descendant through the female line would not be eligible for the kingship.

The Prince of Dol Amroth was the second highest ranking nobile in Gondor. Daughters of the royal family were very likely to marry into that line at some point meaning that the Princes of Dol Amroth would be descendants of Anarion.
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Do you mean this to read after the Choice of the Peredhil was Gifted to the children of the union of Elves and Men, and to their children? To decide which kindred to belong to.
No I mean that all Peredhil were mortal from this point onwards. The only exceptions are to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing, because of the great sacrifice they made.
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There was one 'one way mirror' concept in the Choice of the Peredhil. A Half Elf who chose the Life of the Eldar could have children, even born of an Elf, who could become immortal. But, the converse was not true. Once a Half-Elf chooses a mortal life, their children cannot choose the life of the Elven. So, Although Aragorn's and Arwen's children, for example, bear almost as much Elven blood as Elrond, there is no choice allowed to them.
This is only true of the line of Earendil. All other Halfelves would have no choice and be mortal.
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Even had one of their children married an Elf (full blooded) nothing is stated in the mythology about what happens to the Elf by way of lifespan. The only precedent is Luthien, who did die, but that occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was incepted when Earendil made his way to Valinor.
An elf cannot change his or her fate any more than a Man can. Any elf that married a mortal would remain immortal.

Luthien was not a case of a Halfelven being given a choice. It was her making a deal to get Beren back, which meant giving up her immortality. In return Beren was brought back to life and this was a unique exception counter balanced by Tuor being the only mortal to ever become immortal.
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:27 PM   #123
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Who are you talking about here?
Galador, the son of the Elf woman, and his son. Galador lived for 125 years and his son lived for 143 years. So the son, Galador, had a shorter life span than the grandson, Galador's son.

In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings.

Regarding Éowyn, Morwen who was a High Woman from Dol Amroth, married a Rohirrim and her children were Thingol & his sister Théodwyn. Between them were 3 children, Éowyn & her brother Éomer, their mother being Théodwyn, their uncle Théoden and his deceased son Théodred. They were all of Dúnedain descent, kinsmen of the Lords of Dol Amroth. Éomer and Éowyn married back into Gondor's high houses; Éomer with Imrahil's daughter, and his sister Éowyn into the Steward's House with Faramir.
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:33 PM   #124
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I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

And yet I remember clearly that somewhere in the Appendices a commentary (I think by Merry, written during the early period of the 4th Age) states of Cirdan : " .... and some say he dwells there still", meaning the Havens.
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:29 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Belegorn View Post
In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings.
This is from a draft and it does not make the appendix. We can speculate on the reason, but Tolkien did decide to leave it out.

The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all. Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended. Minas Morgul had falled and Osgiliath was a ruin. Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out.

The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will.

As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility.

I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:37 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
This is from a draft and it does not make the appendix.
Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.

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The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all.
Correct. They would have children late too. In PoM-E, chapter 7 for example, it is said that Turin l "was wedded twice and had several children ( a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."

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Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended.
Yes. In the Kin-Strife itself, "much of the best blood in Gondor was shed" [Appendix A] There is also the infighting within the royal household itself leading to possible heirs abandoning their noble stations.

""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood."

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Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out.
Not only wiped out, but many renounced their lineage as well and began to take non-Dúnedain wives.

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The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will.
Indeed, nor others "whose claim all would allow".

Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards?

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As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility.
Not an argument.

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I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne.
I think it is clear there is no claimant because Eärnur, "left no children. No MALE descendant of CLEAR title (OR nearly PURE BLOOD) of Elendil could be discovered." [Heirs of Elendil, ch. 7] In Gondor kingship passed through the male line. So it did not matter if the Steward at that time was the son of the King's sister, he could not take the throne. Gondor's Council told King Arvedui, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil... In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS only" [Appendix A] In the end the crown was given to Eärnil, "the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil ll."

What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:09 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
As the Steward announces, the throne of Gondor was passed strictly to the SONS of Anarion. They followed Salic succession, so anyone descendant through the female line would not be eligible for the kingship.

The Prince of Dol Amroth was the second highest ranking nobile in Gondor. Daughters of the royal family were very likely to marry into that line at some point meaning that the Princes of Dol Amroth would be descendants of Anarion.
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No I mean that all Peredhil were mortal from this point onwards. The only exceptions are to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing, because of the great sacrifice they made.
The Choice of the Peredhil went beyond Earendil. It went to Elwing, and to any, I believe. Elwing had a very different lineage. Dior took an Elven wife from Doriath and he was born *after* Luthien was restored to life as a *mortal*. Earendil and Elwing were the first Half Elven to be formerly gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil after a specific decree and intervention from Valinor, that did not circumscribe its bounds to Earendil's lineage. See also, below, my comments about Luthien.

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This is only true of the line of Earendil. All other Halfelves would have no choice and be mortal.
No. The Choice of the Peredhil was not bound to a specific lineage, such as Earendil. I suspect that in Dol Amroth, the reason for no immortality, was for choice to belong to the lines of Men.

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An elf cannot change his or her fate any more than a Man can. Any elf that married a mortal would remain immortal......Luthien was not a case of a Halfelven being given a choice. It was her making a deal to get Beren back, which meant giving up her immortality. In return Beren was brought back to life and this was a unique exception counter balanced by Tuor being the only mortal to ever become immortal.
Not quite. She died of grief for love of Beren. Mandos brought them both back to life, and granted Luthien mortality. She died, as a mortal, and had two sojourns to the Halls of Mandos. The first was after she died of grief, the second when she died after living with Beren, for a time, in Beleriand. They had Dior, who, I really do not see as someone with the life of the Eldar, given what we know became of Luthien.

In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there.

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Old 02-27-2014, 04:04 PM   #128
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Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.
'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here
This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.
Yes. And I agree as I say. I only meant that Elrond doesn't put it as specifically as we do... but of course he needs to speak 'in the tale' and need hardly say something like...

'... and by that I mean they must depart when I go, that is, on the very same ship or in the same year at least...'

Or something

Another statement in Appendix A goes something like depart 'with' him, but some seem to interpret that to mean that the Sons can leave after Elrond sailed, but will be 'with' him in a broader sense, and can still chose an Elvish fate [as Tolkien seems to suggest in a letter].

Again I rather think the more natural suggestion is as you [we] have said. And Robert Foster seems to agree [in his guide to Middle-earth] -- and the point there is, he was not letting 'that letter' influence his interpretation of the story.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:28 PM   #129
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Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.
Yes, because it is in a draft and he chose to leave it out. There is a difference between a note he left about a topic and a draft he discarded with what was published. Or else Strider would still be a Hobbit and the Sons of Elrond would have led the Eorl's charge. In the case of the Sons of Elrond riding to save Gondor, I don't accept it as much as I would love to.


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Correct. They would have children late too. In PoM-E, chapter 7 for example, it is said that Turin l "was wedded twice and had several children ( a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."



Yes. In the Kin-Strife itself, "much of the best blood in Gondor was shed" [Appendix A] There is also the infighting within the royal household itself leading to possible heirs abandoning their noble stations.

""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood."

Not only wiped out, but many renounced their lineage as well and began to take non-Dúnedain wives.
Yes this supports the few families being left with Royal Blood.
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Indeed, nor others "whose claim all would allow".

Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards?
I mean both. The families with claims, that were not strong enough probably would not accept a rival to rule as Steward. Hence to stop future infighting you choose a family with a weak claim to rule.
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Not an argument.
No it is. The families with strong claims to the throne would probably be some of the greatest nobles in the land. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the greatest nobles in Gondor, but there were others still about and greater than the House of Stewards. Considering the Stewards had ruled Gondor for a 1000 years, but STILL were not regarded as greater than these families is something.
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I think it is clear there is no claimant because Eärnur, "left no children. No MALE descendant of CLEAR title (OR nearly PURE BLOOD) of Elendil could be discovered." [Heirs of Elendil, ch. 7] In Gondor kingship passed through the male line. So it did not matter if the Steward at that time was the son of the King's sister, he could not take the throne. Gondor's Council told King Arvedui, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil... In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS only" [Appendix A] In the end the crown was given to Eärnil, "the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil ll."

What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.
This is part of the reason, but Arnor puts forward the claim the female line first. This implies that even in the female line, there was not many claimants.

It's in reply to this that Gondor makes the decision to choose Earnil a descendant through the male line over Arvedui's female line claim (amongst other claims).

It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too.

I don't think they were, because
1. They were not one of the great families
2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:36 PM   #130
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The Choice of the Peredhil went beyond Earendil. It went to Elwing, and to any, I believe. Elwing had a very different lineage. Dior took an Elven wife from Doriath and he was born *after* Luthien was restored to life as a *mortal*. Earendil and Elwing were the first Half Elven to be formerly gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil after a specific decree and intervention from Valinor, that did not circumscribe its bounds to Earendil's lineage. See also, below, my comments about Luthien.
Yes I know, which is why I said it was a special gift to their family ALONE, because of their sacrifice. It was not something, which would be given to any other Peredhil again.
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No. The Choice of the Peredhil was not bound to a specific lineage, such as Earendil. I suspect that in Dol Amroth, the reason for no immortality, was for choice to belong to the lines of Men.
Except it was. Only the line of Earendil and Elwing was given a choice, because of their actions. In every other case the descendants would remain mortal like Dol Amroth.
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Not quite. She died of grief for love of Beren. Mandos brought them both back to life, and granted Luthien mortality. She died, as a mortal, and had two sojourns to the Halls of Mandos. The first was after she died of grief, the second when she died after living with Beren, for a time, in Beleriand. They had Dior, who, I really do not see as someone with the life of the Eldar, given what we know became of Luthien.

In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there.
Luthien was given the chance to be mortal, but she remained an elf. I am aware she died, but she too because of the beauty of her son was given a choice. She could dwell in bliss in Valinor or return to Middle-Earth with Beren.

She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf.

Dior is a strange case, because there had been no judgement made at the point he died. This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man.

Dior lived most his life with the elves. He ruled Doriath and married an elf, which is not counted amongst the union of Elves and Men. When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:11 PM   #131
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Yes I know, which is why I said it was a special gift to their family ALONE, because of their sacrifice. It was not something, which would be given to any other Peredhil again.

Except it was. Only the line of Earendil and Elwing was given a choice, because of their actions. In every other case the descendants would remain mortal like Dol Amroth.
I re-read an excerpt from the Silmarillion, and it actually does state that Mandos made the decree, just to Earnedil's and Elwing's **male** offspring.

There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines.

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Luthien was given the chance to be mortal, but she remained an elf. I am aware she died, but she too because of the beauty of her son was given a choice. She could dwell in bliss in Valinor or return to Middle-Earth with Beren.

She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf
Was it her beauty? I'm not sure about that one. Mandos brought her back to life, who was somehow moved, and I would suspect because of her heroism and sacrifice, for love, and because she succeeded, with Beren, in gaining a Silmaril. She was restored as a Mortal, and she and Beren had a rather short life. I believe they lived with the Silmaril nearby for a while, before Dior (who must have been mortal) returned to Doriath to become lord there, after Elu Thingol was slain. Entre Elured, Eluren and Elwing.

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This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man.....When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice.
I'm not so sure about Imrahil's blood line. The part-elven offspring were reared by Edain, which makes it very likely they defaulted on any potential immortality because of that.

Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil

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Old 02-27-2014, 06:39 PM   #132
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I re-read an excerpt from the Silmarillion, and it actually does state that Mandos made the decree, just to Earnedil's and Elwing's **male** offspring.

There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines.



Was it her beauty? I'm not sure about that one. Mandos brought her back to life, who was somehow moved, and I would suspect because of her heroism and sacrifice, for love, and because she succeeded, with Beren, in gaining a Silmaril. She was restored as a Mortal, and she and Beren had a rather short life. I believe they lived with the Silmaril nearby for a while, before Dior (who must have been mortal) returned to Doriath to become lord there, after Elu Thingol was slain. Entre Elured, Eluren and Elwing.



I'm not so sure about Imrahil's blood line. The part-elven offspring were reared by Edain, which makes it very likely they defaulted on any potential immortality because of that.

Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil

Irvriniel
Quickly I meant the beauty of Luthien's SONG and not son.

Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal.

Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153

It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement.

'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'


It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:27 PM   #133
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Quickly I meant the beauty of Luthien's SONG and not son.

Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal.
I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.
It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)
Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.

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[B][I]Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity...
Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.


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so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153
This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)

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It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement.

'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'
Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.

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It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most.
I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.

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Old 02-27-2014, 09:04 PM   #134
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Yes, because it is in a draft and he chose to leave it out. There is a difference between a note he left about a topic and a draft he discarded with what was published.
True he did leave it out, but I do not think that his doing so necessarily means, at least in this case, that the Stewards were not related to Anárion. In Appendix A when we are given the rulers of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, the Stewards are clearly written with the Kings under Heirs of Anárion, as regards The Southern Line.

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I mean both. The families with claims, that were not strong enough probably would not accept a rival to rule as Steward.
Since when did the other nobles start choosing the Stewards who, "took office with the oath, 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.'" [App. A]

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Hence to stop future infighting you choose a family with a weak claim to rule.
I'm not sure I get what you mean here. What kind of politics is this? Generally if a Prince wanted to secure himself from rivals he'd destroy the families of all would be rivals. It is known that Pelendur the Steward, for instance "played the chief part" [App. A] in the rejection of Arvedui's claim to the crown and the installment of Eärnil with whom the other Dúnedain approved.

They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line.

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No it is. The families with strong claims to the throne would probably be some of the greatest nobles in the land. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the greatest nobles in Gondor, but there were others still about and greater than the House of Stewards.
It is said, "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [App. A] and that the Stewards were nearly as pure as the kings. If there were purer houses, and houses of greater nobility, would they not take the station of king? They, like the Stewards, in my opinion were not related to the kings through the male line. Those who may have been descendants through the male line were not pure enough as they, "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A]

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Considering the Stewards had ruled Gondor for a 1000 years, but STILL were not regarded as greater than these families is something.
This is because the kings installed them as such and they became hereditary.

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This is part of the reason, but Arnor puts forward the claim the female line first. This implies that even in the female line, there was not many claimants.
I do not think so. Let's be honest, there were not many claimants anyway, but again, Pelendur made sure that no one in the female line could take the crown when he rejected Arvedui's claim. His argument was not that there was no one to be found in the female line who could take the throne, it was that in keeping with tradition in Gondor, only in the male line were kings taken. There were certainly people of the male line, but as we no they could not be selected because they were too mixed with lesser men.

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It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too.
I think it's possible both were, and possibly all of the noble houses remaining in Gondor with him intermarriage was almost certain to happen.

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I don't think they were, because
1. They were not one of the great families
2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards.
I do not get your 2 points here. Explain the 2nd one and also explain the first.

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:27 PM   #135
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True he did leave it out, but I do not think that his doing so necessarily means, at least in this case, that the Stewards were not related to Anárion. In Appendix A when we are given the rulers of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, the Stewards are clearly written with the Kings under Heirs of Anárion, as regards The Southern Line.
This probably has more to do with the Stewards acting with all the powers of the King rather than any ancestry.
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Since when did the other nobles start choosing the Stewards who, "took office with the oath, 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.'" [App. A]
The nobles would have had to agree for the Stewards to keep ruling. The Civil Wars in both Arnor and Gondor are proof that the Numenoreans were not always prepared to follow the law.
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I'm not sure I get what you mean here. What kind of politics is this? Generally if a Prince wanted to secure himself from rivals he'd destroy the families of all would be rivals. It is known that Pelendur the Steward, for instance "played the chief part" [App. A] in the rejection of Arvedui's claim to the crown and the installment of Eärnil with whom the other Dúnedain approved.

They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line.
I think you are confusing the timeline. Earnil's claim was certainly not weak. He was of the House of Anarion. The problem is that Arvedui had a stronger claim.

The political logic is that there are a few Houses with strong claims to the throne like the Prince of Dol Amroth and others. These Houses cannot agree on who should be king, so they agree to let the Steward continue ruling until the matter is resolved. A bit like the crisis Scotland had after the death of the Maid of Norway. They called upon Edward Longshanks to settle the matter.
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It is said, "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [App. A] and that the Stewards were nearly as pure as the kings. If there were purer houses, and houses of greater nobility, would they not take the station of king? They, like the Stewards, in my opinion were not related to the kings through the male line. Those who may have been descendants through the male line were not pure enough as they, "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A]
The answer to that is NO. Just, because they were purer, more noble Houses with a better claim does not mean they would have been chosen for the throne. There was enough disagreement that none of the Great Houses like say Dol Amroth could get all the nobility to agree. Consequently it's easier to have a lesser House rule than have another kinslaying.

The reasoning being that the House of Stewards would never be powerful enough to claim the kingship. As things stand now we know that Dol Amroth at least would have seceded and possibly other areas too.
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This is because the kings installed them as such and they became hereditary.
The king installed them us such, but it was never intended for them to rule for 1000 years with no king. Gondor Dol Amroth had become virtually independent at this time.

I imagine the other great Houses were content to keep the Stewards, because it was better than a Civil War.
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I do not think so. Let's be honest, there were not many claimants anyway, but again, Pelendur made sure that no one in the female line could take the crown when he rejected Arvedui's claim. His argument was not that there was no one to be found in the female line who could take the throne, it was that in keeping with tradition in Gondor, only in the male line were kings taken. There were certainly people of the male line, but as we no they could not be selected because they were too mixed with lesser men.
I never said there were no other claimants, but there were few of them that met the criteria and after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line.
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I think it's possible both were, and possibly all of the noble houses remaining in Gondor with him intermarriage was almost certain to happen.
Possible, but by no means a certainty. The Numenoreans would not have illegitimate children and had a very low birth rate. With the obsession some had about blood purity the royal family would possibly keep marrying back into each other. Numenor had a law forbidding the heir to the throne from marrying a non-descendant of Elros. Gondor may not have had a strict law, but I would imagine it would be the custom.
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I do not get your 2 points here. Explain the 2nd one and also explain the first.

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]
1. The first point is simple. At the time the House of Hurin were raised to Stewards they were still not one of the Great Families. It's only after Aragorn returns that he raises them above all other nobility except the Prince of Dol Amroth. A House with close ties to Anarion would definitely be one of the Great Houses. Just look at the power the Lords of Andunie had.

2. When a group of powerful Houses are all competing for rule, they sometimes let a less powerful House/person rule as a compromise. Usually, because they don't feel the person will ever be a threat (this is part of the reason Hitler was able to come to power).

Say for Instance the Lord of Dol Amroth and the Lord of Calenardhon (fictional Lord) had the two strongest claims through the female line. Both are powerful and important families. The Prince of Dol Amroth does not agree on the Lord of Calenardhon and vice versa. To keep the peace they decide on letting the Steward keep ruling, safe in the knowledge that his claim and power base is too weak to take the throne.

This is a possible reason for why Denethor was bitter that in Gondor the House of Stewards could never take the throne even after a 1000 years.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:42 PM   #136
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I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.
It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)
Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.
This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.
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Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.




This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)
Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.
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Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.
Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Arwen and the twins were granted 'other doom'. Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.
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I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.
Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

As for Legolas' comments he could just be mistaking High Numenorean descent with recent elvish ancestry. Legolas is not well traveled to Gondor and knows little of what they were like in their height. Aragorn himself when dressed up looked more like an Elf Lord than any mortal man.

I personally tend to favour Tolkien's other version where the Princes of Dol Amroth were Elendil's kin. They were a House that kept their blood very pure and lived more in tune with the Elvish lifestyle.

This view would help explain their position as the highest nobility in Gondor. If they were close relatives to Elendil, then it would make sense for him to make them princes. This also parallels Aragorn making Faramir a prince.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:38 AM   #137
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This probably has more to do with the Stewards acting with all the powers of the King rather than any ancestry.
I think it has to do with both, being both rulers and descendants, just as it holds with all the kings mentioned on the list.

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The nobles would have had to agree for the Stewards to keep ruling. The Civil Wars in both Arnor and Gondor are proof that the Numenoreans were not always prepared to follow the law.
If this is your argument then in like manner clearly they would also have to agree among themselves to keep the Kings as Kings. Therefore I think this is a moot point you're making.

In any case, heredity principalities, such as that which the Kings and the Stewards are borne into, are easier to hold onto since the state is accustomed to the family of its rulers. Gondor's Civil War was due to a thing they were unaccustomed to, a King not marrying a Dúnedain woman. Even back in Númenor it started to become a practice among the Kings to marry women of the line of Elros, "to these provisions Tar-Aldarion added that the King's Heir should not wed save in the Line of Elros, and that any who did so should cease to be eligible for the Heirship." [UT; Aldarion and Erendis, p.218]

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I think you are confusing the timeline.
Howso? This happened between 1944-1945 of the 3rd Age.

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Earnil's claim was certainly not weak. He was of the House of Anarion.
Certainly it was not weak. He was of course descended in the male line from Anarion.

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The problem is that Arvedui had a stronger claim.
Not according to the South Kingdom who believed that the "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" [RotK, Appendix A]

In Gondor they were of the belief that the Kings of Arnor, Isildur's heirs no longer had any claim to the throne of Gondor having relinquished the the realm. Arvedui argued that this was not so and that Isildur did not, "intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever."

This was echoed by Denethor many years later, "I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142] Here Denethor makes it clear that even if Aragorn proved he was an heir of the kings, his line was of Isildur and not Anárion. As was stated before, ""The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm." [RotK, Appendix A]

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The political logic is that there are a few Houses with strong claims to the throne like the Prince of Dol Amroth and others.
I would say that there were NO Houses with any claim to the throne of Gondor because "In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" and it is clear that those whose heritage could be reckoned through the son could not be King as they had "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A] Thus there was "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;". The rest, the Stewards and other Nobles, were at best only descendants through the female line which gave them no legitimacy.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
These Houses cannot agree on who should be king, so they agree to let the Steward continue ruling until the matter is resolved.
They let the Steward continue to rule imo because it was his duty to do so in the absence of any King. Sure they could oust him, just as they could, if they wanted, have ousted any king. If the Stewards were only raised by the nobles and in power by their design he'd have difficulty in maintaining himself because they think of themselves as their equals and the Stewards would not be able to manage them to their liking. Regardless, whether King or Steward, rulers of the Kingdom in both cases, "the Stewards exercised all the power of the kings" [Appendix A] the nobles would either bind themselves to their fortunes or not, giving more thought to themselves.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The answer to that is NO.
Agreed for reasons stated above.

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Just, because they were purer, more noble Houses with a better claim does not mean they would have been chosen for the throne.
I say none of them had legitimate claims.

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Consequently it's easier to have a lesser House rule than have another kinslaying.
They were just keeping with tradition in this as they did in trying to find an heir. There was none who were legitimate and the Stewards were the legitimate ones "to hold the rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return." [Rotk, Appendix A]

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The reasoning being that the House of Stewards would never be powerful enough to claim the kingship.
None of the Houses could.

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As things stand now we know that Dol Amroth at least would have seceded and possibly other areas too.
Unlikely seeing as there were no legitimate heirs among any of the noble houses and it seems none were willing to break with tradition.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The king installed them us such, but it was never intended for them to rule for 1000 years with no king.
Certainly that was not the intention, for the Kings to die off, but they did give certain powers to the Stewards which were exercised in accordance with the situation they found themselves in.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I never said there were no other claimants, but there were few of them that met the criteria and after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line.
I didn't say you did. They can't at the same time meet the criteria and also not be of the male line. Again, imo none of them had any real legitimate claim to the throne. I don't care if Dol Amroth for instance was thrice as noble as the Stewards they would still not be able to claim it if like you say, "after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line".

However, unlike you I'm a bit more certain that there actually were those from the male line, but they were mixed and not eligible due to their mingling with lesser women, "no male descendants of the royal line, among those whose blood was little mixed, could be found." [PoM-E, ch. 7]

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Possible, but by no means a certainty. The Numenoreans would not have illegitimate children and had a very low birth rate. With the obsession some had about blood purity the royal family would possibly keep marrying back into each other. Numenor had a law forbidding the heir to the throne from marrying a non-descendant of Elros. Gondor may not have had a strict law, but I would imagine it would be the custom.
True, but also the Kings did have daughters and they could marry other not in line for the throne, their children would not be eligible in any case. I think they did marry other nobles in Gondor like the Stewards, etc.

You say "Gondor may not have had a strict law" but you mentioned earlier the Civil War. Do you not realize the Civil War occurred because this rule was broken? So I would say I think they took it seriously as it came to war when it was breached.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
A House with close ties to Anarion would definitely be one of the Great Houses. Just look at the power the Lords of Andunie had.
Good point.

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2. When a group of powerful Houses are all competing for rule, they sometimes let a less powerful House/person rule as a compromise. Usually, because they don't feel the person will ever be a threat (this is part of the reason Hitler was able to come to power).
I disagree that this was their line of thought.

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Say for Instance the Lord of Dol Amroth and the Lord of Calenardhon (fictional Lord) had the two strongest claims through the female line.
This means nothing to me. The Prince of Dol Amroth's mother could have been the sister of Eärnur and I would still tell you such a claim was not legitimate according to Gondor.

"The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS ONLY;" [RotK, Appendix A]

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Both are powerful and important families.
Still they would make baseless claims. Just 100 years earlier they had kept up the practice that "In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS ONLY;". I do not think that they would start trying to make the same argument as Arvedui which the lords of Gondor found baseless.

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The Prince of Dol Amroth does not agree on the Lord of Calenardhon and vice versa.
I think they would all agree that neither was worthy. Perhaps there would be some who would try to make this claim based on their descent through the female line and possibly take up Arvedui's argument about how in Númenor there were 3 Queens, but in the end none would make a case, "whose claim all would allow;" [App. A]

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To keep the peace they decide on letting the Steward keep ruling, safe in the knowledge that his claim and power base is too weak to take the throne.
I say the same holds for all of them, and that the Stewards were doing their duty in any case.

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This is a possible reason for why Denethor was bitter that in Gondor the House of Stewards could never take the throne even after a 1000 years.
None other in Gondor could either imo.
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Old 03-01-2014, 01:07 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.
I'm arguing that Mandos's decree may not be taken, quite so literally--what I mean by the 'Arwen Anomaly' (I'm using proper noun form, on purpose), is the precedent set that is discordant with Mandos's initial decree in Valinor (though as you point out, with your citation, there was a modification or addendum he made to his initial decree. Nice materials, btw).

Mandos *specifically* says (in the Silmarillion, when Earendil made it to Valinor) that the --sons-- of Earendil and Elwing are to be covered by his Decree.

Arwen--female--yet, she had the Choice of the Peredhil.

I might argue that we should merely interpret Mandos as commenting upon the Peredil he knew would come of the Half Elves he knew *of*, and that it is unclear what is meant for unions of Elves and Men beyond the Line of Earendil.

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Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.
Exactly. I wonder what he would say about Gilmith and Galador, daughter and son of Mithrellas.

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Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.
See prior.

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Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.
Only Arwen, really, was granted 'other doom' (access to immortality, given Mandos's Decree for the *sons* of Earendil. Elladan and Elrohir were sons and covered, quite consistently, by Mandos's initial decree (but, here again, another inconsistency in the mythology. Elrond specifically says to Aragorn--Tale of Aragorn and Arwen--that **all** his children needed to depart with him to get immortality. This makes no real sense when looking at what Mandos's decree initially posited. Surely, (theoretically), the sons coulda just said 'see ya in 50 dad--we wanna hang around a bit longer. Galadriel did. So did you. So we wrote to Mandos and said 'I wanna live forever, but dad's boat's goin' too early)

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Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.
Yes. But provisionally. What we don't know is 'would they have', had Mithrellas not disappeared, and, for example, chucked her kids on a boat at Edhellond, to go into the Uttermost West.

I doubt, highly, that the boat would have been refused access to Valinor, don't you think? My point goes to 'which way the kids go'--I like ma more than pa--daddy Numenorean's a bit of a hard *** and likes too much drink and wants all that human-y stuff. I like ma's lamenting singing. She makes Waybread and I like what the Lady Galadriel said to me in Lorien. Lorien's way cooler for me (said Gilmith) than daddy's sword stuff'.

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Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.
I really wonder about all that Salic Succession stuff. This is a contravention of the Laws of Succession, modified in Numenor. Somewhat presumptious of any Gondor-ian delegate, to do this. I wonder. I need to look more closely at materials on the Stewardship and Gondor's line of succession before I comment further.

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Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.
I wonder about this too. I think Finrod would not be speaking of those of the Eldar or Elves who broke with tradition. I think he was speaking more like a monarch, like Queen Lizzy, England, and all that stuff about 'princes do thy duty and don't marry a commoner'. There must have been some radical elements amongst the Elves, from time to time, surely.

I do like the idea, though, of the females of the Line of Silmarien of Andunie, in Gondor--all the second and subsequent born--Princesses of Gondor, trundling off to marry Imrahil's Elvishy crew. Seems quite likely, as I think you suggested.

I really need to look a little more closely at 'what' exactly, they did after Earnur. I wonder if Tolkien ever commented about Elros's blood being present in Imrahil's line. One would of thought it would have been mentioned, by *someone* in LotR at the Pelenor?

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Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.
Interesting. I'd have to agree with you on this. He was 'fair' enough that Legolas was quite taken by him. Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).


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Old 03-01-2014, 07:33 PM   #139
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Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.
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Old 03-20-2014, 09:44 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).

Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.
Why wouldn't he? Denethor expected as much and Imrahil seems like a throw back to the Numenoreans of old too. I think it's likely he had some suspicion this was to be the case. Imrahil was also the greatest noble in Gondor, ahead of even the steward (though the latter had the powers of the King). Thorongil as the Steward's right hand would have had to interact with the family on numerous occasions.
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Old 03-20-2014, 11:50 AM   #141
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I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:42 PM   #142
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I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.
We are told he was effectively the Steward's right hand in the appendix.

'In much he (Ecthelion II) did he had the aid and the advice of a great captain whom he loved above all.....He was a great leader of men, by land or by the sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.'

He had so much power in Gondor Aragorn was the most beloved man and seen as a rival to Denthor.

'At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor'


Denethor as great as he was and he was very great just could not compare even to Ecthelion with Aragorn.

'yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.'

Thorongil as we have seen counseled in everything including trusting Gandalf over Saruman.

'And in one matter only were their (Aragorn and Denethor) counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.'
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